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AF Thinking To Launch Some ORY-Europe Flights  
User currently offlineLIPZ From Austria, joined Jun 2006, 1075 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6717 times:

Seems like AF is evaluating to launch new European destinations out of Orly airport in order to focus more on the p2p side for some larger routes.

New routes to begin with should be

- Athens
- Casablanca
- Istanbul/Ataturk
- Rome/Fiumicino


more (in French only)
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-...ternationaux-au-depart-d-orly.html

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Again? They have tried and failed for the most part out of TLS, MRS and NCE. NCE-IST never launched, MRS-IST got axed and TLS-IST reduced. And yet they are trying from ORY. Turkish travelers who had to use this airport for years on TK would not be delighted.

User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 881 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Instead they should keep the current AF mainline operations from CDG and to operate from ORY with Transavia B738 by adding flights to various destinations such as BCN, IST, MAD, ATH, CMN, FCO, TXL, LIS etc.

User currently offlinerara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2079 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6373 times:

It baffles me why anyone travelling from Europe to a French destination other than Paris would choose Air France. Perhaps they're adressing this by directing the feeder flights to ORY. As long as it doesn't diminish their more important long-haul feeders into CDG, I don't see why this wouldn't be a good idea.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6224 times:

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 2):
Instead they should keep the current AF mainline operations from CDG and to operate from ORY with Transavia B738 by adding flights to various destinations such as BCN, IST, MAD, ATH, CMN, FCO, TXL, LIS etc.

The goal according to the article is to use the A320s that fly domestic in the morning and evening, but do not fly much during the middle of the day (I rather read this to say - flying very unprofitably during the middle of the day). Air France plans to launch flights between the morning and evening domestic wave. It seems this would also result in one less flight from CDG, during the middle of the day, to the destinations they would serve from ORY.

Of course this doesn't leave much as choice and the routes will probably end up being:

-high leisure oriented routes
-routed with a lot of demand but not much high yield. Thus quite price sensitive
-Not addressing the fact that AF's costs are way above any other European carrier.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their existing domestic shuttle flights as the number of flights will be further reduced, as the slots have to come from somewhere.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their CDG hub. As it will lead to longer transfer times between flights that will be split between ORY and CDG, less opportunity to hop onto an earlier flight and potentially lower yield.
-Poor marketing by AF to clearly define and communicate what their European product offers, though this is a network wide problem, not only limited to potential venture from ORY.

Whilst the idea isn't bad, due to the above and most importantly AF's high costs, this will probably have the same outcome as their various failed attempts from MRS, NCE, TLS. That is to say, will last a few months then be discontinued.


User currently offlineleftyboarder From Turkey, joined Apr 2008, 693 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 5972 times:

Quoting runway23 (Reply 4):
The goal according to the article is to use the A320s that fly domestic in the morning and evening, but do not fly much during the middle of the day (I rather read this to say - flying very unprofitably during the middle of the day). Air France plans to launch flights between the morning and evening domestic wave. It seems this would also result in one less flight from CDG, during the middle of the day, to the destinations they would serve from ORY.

Of course this doesn't leave much as choice and the routes will probably end up being:

-high leisure oriented routes
-routed with a lot of demand but not much high yield. Thus quite price sensitive
-Not addressing the fact that AF's costs are way above any other European carrier.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their existing domestic shuttle flights as the number of flights will be further reduced, as the slots have to come from somewhere.
-Reducing the attractiveness of their CDG hub. As it will lead to longer transfer times between flights that will be split between ORY and CDG, less opportunity to hop onto an earlier flight and potentially lower yield.
-Poor marketing by AF to clearly define and communicate what their European product offers, though this is a network wide problem, not only limited to potential venture from ORY.

Whilst the idea isn't bad, due to the above and most importantly AF's high costs, this will probably have the same outcome as their various failed attempts from MRS, NCE, TLS. That is to say, will last a few months then be discontinued.

Perfect points. AF should know better not to split its main base and reduce connectivity for cities like ATH, IST, MOW... These cities get around 3-4 dailies, which is not so many that moving one or two to ORY will not be felt. In my opinion, multiple airport operations from a single city only work if markets are really segregated. BA can manage LGW with leisure traffic and LCY with a very limited focus on business oriented O&D traffic. And there aren't that many other examples to mention.


User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2191 posts, RR: 35
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5918 times:

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 5):
Perfect points. AF should know better not to split its main base and reduce connectivity for cities like ATH, IST, MOW... These cities get around 3-4 dailies, which is not so many that moving one or two to ORY will not be felt. In my opinion, multiple airport operations from a single city only work if markets are really segregated. BA can manage LGW with leisure traffic and LCY with a very limited focus on business oriented O&D traffic. And there aren't that many other examples to mention.

Yes BA is probably the only other airline who has used this strategy in Europe. However like you say there is very little overlap and the entire operation is quite well balanced.

However, Paris and London are two different markets. The distance from central Paris to Orly and CDG is not that different, at least not to a point of massively favoring one over the other. That cannot be said of LHR, LCY and LGW (airports further located from each other and serving different demographics and areas).

BA does have a growing leisure component from LCY, however this complements LGW and LHR operations and based on a lower cost base than what AF will have.

Perhaps AF should reduce the size of their fleet in ORY and make more use of Transavia (similar to AZ with AirOne), if they really want to effectively compete with easyJet and co. They could also make more use of Britair/regional during the afternoon to maintain frequencies on their shuttle routes whilst providing a capacity that is more in line with the weaker demand at those times.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7411 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3997 times:

Funny to see how it is possible to talk talk and talk about a wrong and inaccurate information.

Air France is "not thinking" to launch some ORY-Europe flights ... Air France WILL TRANSFER some frequencies from CDG to ORY.

Very few flights and destinations are concerned : SVO, ATH, CMN, IST and FCO as far as I know.
And the reason is very simple : Air France operates several Daily frequencies to these cities from CDG. Most of them are connecting to/from Long haul AF network flights at CDG but some are used almost exclusively by p2p passengers, as they are scheduled out of the "Hub waves".

ORY has always been much more praised than CDG by passengers with Paris as final / Origin destination.

As simple as that.

AF has already started Europe fights from ORY 2 or 3 years to BCN (3 x Daily operated by Brit'Air ) and LIN (3 x Daily operated by AZ)

Concerning TRANSAVIA, the "deal" with AF is clear : TRANSAVIA FRANCE clearly oriented toward the "leisure market" and is not allowed to operate flights to destinations already served by AF


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2499 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3596 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Concerning TRANSAVIA, the "deal" with AF is clear : TRANSAVIA FRANCE clearly oriented toward the "leisure market" and is not allowed to operate flights to destinations already served by AF

Not correct... Transavia is operating ORY-TUN while AF operates CDG-TUN.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6607 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3519 times:

About the cost structure of AF, there is already a plan to address that.

About new flights at ORY, I don't know if it makes sense, but since I'm living 20 minutes from it while CDG is quite far for me, I'm glad ! I just brought my sister there, but for a Corsair International flight.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineheebeegb From Finland, joined Sep 2007, 424 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

The BA example may be true but they are losing shed loads if money out of LGW

User currently offlineHumberside From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2005, 4918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 3048 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
AF has already started Europe fights from ORY 2 or 3 years to BCN (3 x Daily operated by Brit'Air ) and LIN (3 x Daily operated by AZ)

Plus the Airlinair operated Berne service. There is also the longer established Cityjet service to LCY



Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
User currently offlinestylo777 From Germany, joined Feb 2006, 2968 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 7):
Air France WILL TRANSFER some frequencies from CDG to ORY.

when are they going to transfer all those flights? already for upcoming winterschedule? which of the flights are concered?


User currently offlinegoldenargosy From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2424 times:

In addition to the AF European flights being redirected to ORY, I would really like to see AF take just one of their many JFK- CDG flights and transfer it to ORY. For U.S. passengers with Paris as a final destination this would seem to be the preferable option over the very busy GDG. I flew JFK- ORY in the early '80s on Pan Am and it was a great/simple experience. More relaxing than the delays and hassles I experience each time I fly in to CDG,

User currently offlinespud757 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2007, 331 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting goldenargosy (Reply 13):

Fly ORY-EWR with OpenSkies (part of BA)

Do AF still have the JV on ORY-SOU with BE?


User currently offlinegoldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1841 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1795 times:

Quoting spud757 (Reply 14):
Do AF still have the JV on ORY-SOU with BE?

not a JV but a code-share agreement (and not limited to this single route)


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