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Bombardier CSeries Update Part 2  
User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 24959 times:

As the preceding thread about the CSeries is now archived,

Bombardier CSeries Update (by CRJ900X Jun 19 2012 in Civil Aviation)


I take the liberty of starting a new one, with this official admission of the possibility that the CSeries first flight might be late...

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article....e-xml/awx_08_09_2012_p0-484800.xml

Quote from Bombardier's CEO: "Beaudoin, however, is cautious about the first flight timeline, noting the complex nature of the program–Bombardier’s first complete fly-by-wire aircraft–and says he would still consider the program on track even if first flight were to slip three to five months. “One challenge in an aircraft program like this is what you don’t know,” he says."

In the preceding thread, there are comparisons with Airbus' progress with the A350. From what I understood, the comments were mostly to the effect that Airbus seems much more advanced in their testing, yet the A350's FF will be delayed by months, whereas up to now, Bombardier has kept the official "everything's on track" discourse. My first impression, comparing the A350's progress thread to the CSeries' one, is that Bombardier tends to keep every bit of information much closer to their chest than Airbus...

Anybody having more informations? Which shall fly first? CSeries or A350?

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerikkus67 From Canada, joined Jun 2000, 1645 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 24832 times:

I am going to remian cautiously optimistic, and hope for a sooner rather than later first flight. If BBD is off by a few months, that will quickly be forgotten.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this will be the largest clean-sheet design ever built in Canada, correct?



AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
User currently offlineNorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 3022 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 24816 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
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Quoting rikkus67 (Reply 1):
Correct me if I am wrong, but this will be the largest clean-sheet design ever built in Canada, correct?

Clean sheet wise yes... which negates the DC-4M (just slightly wider wingspan) and CL-44/Argus lines.
The new closest would of been the Avro Canada Jetliner.



Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1336 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week ago) and read 24522 times:

Quoting aircellist (Thread starter):
Bombardier tends to keep every bit of information much closer to their chest than Airbus

Do you think this might be because Airbus learned from the A380 experience that being open and up front immediately with customers was better than a last minute admission of delays?

I really hope the CSeries does not slip too much, but I would not be surprised at all should the schedule move....


User currently offlinetomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 24491 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
Do you think this might be because Airbus learned from the A380 experience that being open and up front immediately with customers was better than a last minute admission of delays?

For sure, one thing Airbus hasn't learned is how to remain on schedule. Customers would appreciate this even more than an open but late supplier.


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 24444 times:

Okay, supposedly the C-Series are going to have their first flights by the end of this year, and will be able to make delivery dates by the end of 2013. This is the latest info that I have on this here, so anyone please feel free to correct if need be.

Now with that, I would assume that the RJET (Republic) order is still there, and that also from what info that I have is that they are to be the first ones to take delivery. If this is changed, please feel free to correct as well.

So, I guess my question is (and probably most here) is what is Republic going to do with these? Any new developments with this? I do believe that F9 is at present low on aircraft, but will probably be getting by with their Airbus orders of so 40 or so new planes over the next few years. And of course Republic's soon to be 'separation' from F9 probably complicates some here, but does anyone see this C-Series order as eventually ending up in F9 livery?

 


User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 24322 times:

Quote:


Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
Quoting aircellist (Thread starter):
Bombardier tends to keep every bit of information much closer to their chest than Airbus

Do you think this might be because Airbus learned from the A380 experience that being open and up front immediately with customers was better than a last minute admission of delays?

I really hope the CSeries does not slip too much, but I would not be surprised at all should the schedule move....

I hope as well... I guess Airbus has learned at least that from the A380, yes. In French, we say: "Faute avouée est à moitié pardonnée", something like "an avowed fault is half forgiven"...


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 23372 times:

Quoting aircellist (Thread starter):
Bombardier tends to keep every bit of information much closer to their chest than Airbus...

To a certain degree, unlike Airbus, BBD has little choice... they really can't afford for this program to slip significantly and any negative news just adds to airline concern that BBD has bitten of more than they can chew "comfortably" with the CSeries. However, an example of secrecy that backfired is when news of the barrel problems with Shenyang leaked out just before Farnborough and the press ran with that story during the show.

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
I really hope the CSeries does not slip too much, but I would not be surprised at all should the schedule move....

As has been reported in the press since before Farnborough, BBD has been prepping the media for a "possible" delay for first flight. While BBD is still driving for a theoretical end of year first flight (until the constantly re-jigged schedule can no longer be re-jigged BBD can state - "honestly," that they are still targeting end of year first flight) they have already been qualifying that by saying for quite some time that a 3-5 month delay is acceptable.

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Now with that, I would assume that the RJET (Republic) order is still there, and that also from what info that I have is that they are to be the first ones to take delivery.

RJET will not be the first to take delivery (their delivery date is in 2015). The first delivery (and the only scheduled for 2013) will be to an undisclosed airline that ordered 10 CS100s.

This is the current firm order book for 138 CSeries:

CS100 - 66 firm orders
(Qty / Airline / Scheduled EIS)

10 Undisclosed 2013
3 Undisclosed 2014
30 Swiss 2014
3 Lease Corporation International 2014
5 Braathens 2014
5 PrivatAir 2014
10 Undisclosed 201?

CS300 - 72 firm orders
(Qty / Airline / Scheduled EIS)

17 Lease Corporation International 2014
5 Braathens 2014
40 Republic Airways Holdings 2015
10 Korean Air 2015

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
So, I guess my question is (and probably most here) is what is Republic going to do with these? Any new developments with this?

The only "developments" about Republic's CSeries was a trial balloon that Bedford floated at the end of May. He suggested that the CSeries could be the basis for a new low cost carrier for one of the global alliances. However, scope precludes that possibility.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25242 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 23279 times:
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Quoting planemaker (Reply 7):
The only "developments" about Republic's CSeries was a trial balloon that Bedford floated at the end of May. He suggested that the CSeries could be the basis for a new low cost carrier for one of the global alliances.

He also said that the C Series would not be flown by Frontier:

http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/201...uld-be-destined-for-low-cost-wing/

"The CSeries will now be flown by Republic itself, not by Frontier, he added."

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 926 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 23204 times:

I completely understand the attention the CSeries is getting, but why is there so little interest on the MRJ? They are gaining some worthy orders, but their first flight and deliveries have slipped by way over a year. I think about two years since first launched. Why were MRJ never challenged on their dates? Is it because they were too vague?


Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 23066 times:

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 9):
Why were MRJ never challenged on their dates? Is it because they were too vague?

They were challenged on their dates... but with the certain level of "fluidity" to the program (not to mention the wing material switch, etc), on the one hand, and the fact that they were considered yet "another" RJ trying to break into a saturated market, on the other, the MRJ was able to keep a low profile... especially since they weren't targeting A or B's market.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 22950 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 3):
I really hope the CSeries does not slip too much, but I would not be surprised at all should the schedule move....

I agree, but it seems like they haven't had many slip ups. I don't know if it's good or bad that we haven't heard much from them.

Quoting point2point (Reply 5):
Okay, supposedly the C-Series are going to have their first flights by the end of this year, and will be able to make delivery dates by the end of 2013. This is the latest info that I have on this here, so anyone please feel free to correct if need be.

Don't wanna be that guy, but who is launch customer?

Quoting planemaker (Reply 7):
This is the current firm order book for 138 CSeries:

Not too shabby for a relatively revolutionary design with a lot of competitors....anyone think that other airlines will make further orders?



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 22503 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Not too shabby for a relatively revolutionary design with a lot of competitors....anyone think that other airlines will make further orders?

Not many until it gets in the air, and some real numbers start coming out. Like many have said, what's the rush for any airline to jump into the fray now, why not wait for 6-12 months?


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 22153 times:

The so called 'bad news' was ancient news at farnborough and had already been long ago dealt with and problems solved...well before some tried to make it sound like a nail in a coffin. Besides, it didn't stop them selling 25 more planes, so it was only news to few reporters and wasn't even news to them for much more than a day.

Just because a.net isn't getting news, doesn't mean that customers or potential customers aren't being kept in the loop. Even if the schedule slipped by 6 months, that's still orders of magnitude better than some recent Boeing or Airbus products.

It would still be bad, but nothing tragic and would soon enough be relegated to a.net trivia threads.



What the...?
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 20267 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Don't wanna be that guy, but who is launch customer?

They are not saying.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Not too shabby for a relatively revolutionary design with a lot of competitors....anyone think that other airlines will make further orders?

That is the question that I have been asking for a long time.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 13):
The so called 'bad news' was ancient news at farnborough and had already been long ago dealt with and problems solved.

It is "bad news" because it highlighted that the fuselage partner could not manufacture the barrels. And it wasn't "ancient" since only in the past ~12 months that BBD came up with the temporary work around by having the work done in Spain and Montreal. Moreover, the temporary work around has, and is, costing more money and until production is moved back to Shenyang the problem has not been solved. Furthermore, as has been reported, until the work is moved back to Shenyang doubts will remain on how well BBD is able to manage the CSeries supply chain.

It seems that many people on here just can't begin to fathom just how much BBD has tried to bite off with the CSeries... CFRP wing, Al-Li fuselage and full FBW - with limited to no experience with these technologies and on such a scale. The only reason why they are a bit more forthcoming, now, on the FBW is because there is no "work around" on the FBW available (unlike the fuselage barrels) and first flight is looming.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 20212 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 14):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Don't wanna be that guy, but who is launch customer?

They are not saying.

Sooooooo you start a project with no launch customer declared? A bit risky in my opinion.

Quoting ANM604 (Reply 12):
Not many until it gets in the air, and some real numbers start coming out. Like many have said, what's the rush for any airline to jump into the fray now, why not wait for 6-12 months?

You know what, that makes perfect sense to me.



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30977 posts, RR: 86
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 20191 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
Sooooooo you start a project with no launch customer declared? A bit risky in my opinion.

As long as that launch customer's checks were good...  

I've long been a nattering nabob of negativism on the CSeries, but I do hope she is successful in the end. With both Airbus and Boeing both deciding to (effectively) scuttle the A318-100 and 737-600 as opposed to going with new engines, that fully opens the market to planes like the CSeries.

[Edited 2012-08-11 12:58:27]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 20020 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 14):

The news was not only old, but replacement manufacturers were already in place and doing the work...for as long as they need. So by the time it was interesting enough to actually make the news, the problem had long been solved.

Boeing and Airbus have both had supplier issues and they solved their problems. BBD just solved theirs years earlier. Even after that 'bad' news, they still sold planes...those airlines either have information they just aren't sharing with a.net or they are all idiots.

I choose to believe the former. You can choose not to.

There has also been some good news for the CSeries. Both Boeing and Airbus have increased their estimates on how many 100-150 seat planes will be required over the next few decades...which happens to be a market segment they are busy abandoning. Exactly zero -7 MAX's sold and a handful of 319NEO's. So far, the CSeries is handily outselling their direct competition.

Most people are quite intelligent enough to be aware of how much BBD has bitten off but they don't see any reason to panic at every slow news day press release.



What the...?
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 20007 times:
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Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
There has also been some good news for the CSeries. Both Boeing and Airbus have increased their estimates on how many 100-150 seat planes will be required over the next few decades...which happens to be a market segment they are busy abandoning. Exactly zero -7 MAX's sold and a handful of 319NEO's. So far, the CSeries is handily outselling their direct competition.

IMHO, the C-series will have it tough until it proves itself.

I've been stating a while that the narrow body, over a hundred seat market, is 28,000 planes over 20 years with Bombardier competing for 4,000 of those planes. My total was slightly over the Boeing and Airbus market estimates, but should be in line with actual (they both underestimate as missing targets would be bad form). If Bombardier meets goals *and* launches the CS500, that opens up their market potential *significantly.*

I hope to see more orders ASAP.

You are correct, Boeing and airbus are leaving the smaller space open. The 737-7MAX won't have significantly lower costs per flight than the 738MAX. I've posted before how each upgrade to the 737 line increases the optimal length from 732 to 733 to 738 to 737-?MAX. I put the question market as it could remain the 8 or become the 9. Either way, the -7 falls off the radar.

The same is true of the NEO. I expect the A321 to become the top model with the NEO. (Note, the difference in opinion is due to the 737-8 and 737-9 being closer in size than the A320NEO vs. A321NEO and relative performance.)

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 19941 times:

Not disclosing the launch customer is a interesting choice for Bombardier. I wonder if this has more to do with Bombardier looking to protect its interests somehow, or if it is about the airline looking to keep its competitive edge by not revealing it's move.

User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 19781 times:

Quoting bonusonus (Reply 19):
Not disclosing the launch customer is a interesting choice for Bombardier. I wonder if this has more to do with Bombardier looking to protect its interests somehow, or if it is about the airline looking to keep its competitive edge by not revealing it's move.

Or the airline has internal reasons not to disclose. Wants to resolve a labour dispute, wants to settle a scope issue, or any other number of hurtles that they want cleared before they publically announce. Go at it the other way. What airlines are in a situation that not announcing an order at this stage will help them out.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 19654 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
The news was not only old

Coming up with a temp work around within the past 12 months is not old... and hiding it is not old.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
for as long as they need.

That is incorrect. Not only is the work-around more costly but it doesn't have the capacity to meet scheduled production and that is why BBD hopes to give the work back to Shenyang (which constructed a purpose built facility to manufacture the fuselage) ASAP.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
So by the time it was interesting enough to actually make the news, the problem had long been solved.

That is incorrect. As was reported in every article, BBD tried to hide it and it only leaked out before Farnborough. And, again, the problem has not been solved... let alone "long solved".

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
So far, the CSeries is handily outselling their direct competition.

It isn't "handily" outselling their direct competition. The CS300 has a backlog of 72 (with Republic's 40 aircraft order with no home because the A319 replaced the 40 CS300s that were ordered for Frontier). A & B's A319/73G backlog is close to 500.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):
Most people are quite intelligent

Few people on here understand the difficulties of trying to build an all-new aircraft... with CFRP wings, Al-Li fuse and FBW controls... for the very first time... and at a scale that BBD has never attempted. Given that BBD had never EIS'd any program on time, (and with the delays on the A380, 787 and A350 as examples) it is only logical that there are going to be problems and delays.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
IMHO, the C-series will have it tough until it proves itself.

There are still close to 500 A319/73Gs on order and Allegiant taking on leased A319s is one indication of the uphill battle that the CSeries faces with ~350 A319s coming off lease over the next couple of years (not to mention 73Gs). Another is the downward trend in oil prices (Avitas presented at ISTAT why oil will be sub-$40/bbl by NEO EIS) which narrows significantly the COC advantage. Then there is the pricing/financing prowess of A & B... for example, AA got their 738's for around $35-million and with 737 production heading to 42/month pumping out a 73G is a marginal cost. And then there is continuing consolidation coupled with the large number of A319/73Gs in service... around 2,400. The picture is not only tough... it is not encouraging.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
I've been stating a while that the narrow body, over a hundred seat market, is 28,000 planes over 20 years with Bombardier competing for 4,000 of those planes. My total was slightly over the Boeing and Airbus market estimates, but should be in line with actual (they both underestimate as missing targets would be bad form).

Boeing's single aisle number is 23,240 single aisle over 100-seat over 20 years. The problem with the forecast is that it doesn't provide any details.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 19625 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 21):
There are still close to 500 A319/73Gs on order and Allegiant taking on leased A319s is one indication of the uphill battle that the CSeries faces with ~350 A319s coming off lease over the next couple of years (not to mention 73Gs).

On the other hand there are airlines that have placed large order for the A32xNEO or 737Max but without considering the smallest version the A319NEO or the 737Max. Lufthansa for example will need a CS300 sized plane after they retired the 737. As Nico Buchholz their fleet planer has said the A319 and A319NEO are too heavy for most intra German and shorter European routes.
The CSeries would be an ideal plane for all larger European carriers Air France, Alitalia, British Airways, Iberia, KLM......



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 19577 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
On the other hand there are airlines that have placed large order for the A32xNEO or 737Max but without considering the smallest version the A319NEO or the 737Max.

Because they have enough A319 or 73G aircraft in their respective fleets.

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
Lufthansa for example will need a CS300 sized plane after they retired the 737.

LH's 55 737s will be retired by 2016.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 19350 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 21):

They weren't hiding it. That is complete bull. If they tried to hide it, that would be a securities violation. It was completely above board and public...it just wasn't advertised to the general public.

AS for the production rates, BBD has been saying it will be 3 years until they reach full production so as long as they need is a long time.

So only you are expert enough to analyse the CSeries program and have decided well ahead of time that it is a failure. Nobody seems to have told the customers, or the partners or BBD themselves since they all have committed billions to the program and I am guessing at least a few of them are somewhat familiar with the airline business.

You may not like it but the CSeries will be made, will fly and will be sold. It is real. So I'm not sure who you are cautioning about the program. The money has already been spent and there are no plans on shutting it down.

You have always had a very negative view about the program and the company, and that is absolutely your right, but that really doesn't make you the only person able to make logically analyse the situation and come to conclusions.

I give much more credence to the people who actually are expert in their fields and have actually committed the time, effort and money to the program.

Like I said, no amount of negativity will change the reality that nothing is going to stop the program. Whether or not the program is a long term success is impossible to know but feel free to keep predicting its demise.

I, on the other hand, will wait for facts and reality to decide the fate of the program.



What the...?
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 19677 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 21):
Avitas presented at ISTAT why oil will be sub-$40/bbl by NEO EIS

You see what you want to see. Most analysts see the price of oil between $140 and $200 in 2016. And it will be much more if there is a war in Iran, which seems increasingly likely.


User currently offlinechallengerdan From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 19647 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 21):
Coming up with a temp work around within the past 12 months is not old... and hiding it is not old.

You seem to have so much knowledge of the Cseries and its supply chain that I am perplexed with this comment.
Lead times for fuselage sections, when switching suppliers, will not be 12 months.
raw material coordination, tooling, jigs, employee OJT, etc, etc.
What was the transition period when they sent fuselage sections from Montreal to Belfast when they bought Shorts? What was it when they transferred some fuselages to Queretaro?

Any assemblies being built in the last twelve months reflect a decision taken at least 18 to 24 months ago. It might not have been old news because the info was not out there yet, but it is old news in terms of the Program. It will be more expensive, and they probably don't have full projected capacity with this interim solution. No big deal. Try having 20 airframes assemblies with no center fuselage section on the shop floor because they couldn't mitigate the Shenyang issues. Now THAT is much more expensive. Shenyang should be able to overcome their issues and will probably be at normal capacity in due course. And if not, be ready for BBD to come with other solutions. It is called Managing the supply chain.

BBD has being managing their supply chains to a smaller scale since the early 1990s, with the Global Express, and every product thereafter.
How many new aircrafts have they brought to market in the last 25 years? 28 aircraft programs. This number is from BBD themselves, and it must be said that in that numbers some variants of existing types are included. It still should be a testimony of BBD Know-How in terms of design and supply chain.

With every new design come new issues. Al-Li, CFRP and FBW will be dealt with.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
You have always had a very negative view about the program and the company, and that is absolutely your right,




  



if your flight goes MX in YUL, I might be called to fix it!
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 20099 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 21):
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 17):So by the time it was interesting enough to actually make the news, the problem had long been solved.

  

That is incorrect. As was reported in every article, BBD tried to hide it and it only leaked out before Farnborough. And, again, the problem has not been solved... let alone "long solved".

If it was discussed here back then, how could it have been hidden. Every airline interested and those just kicking the tires were all aware. Insurance companies knew. You better believe Leahy and Randy refered to it making their sales pitches. Just because the media didn't splash it doesn't equal BBD hidding it.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days ago) and read 20026 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Don't wanna be that guy, but who is launch customer?

My guess is GA - those CRJ1000's kinda came out of no where...

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
You have always had a very negative view about the program and the company, and that is absolutely your right

Because he knows in a few years Embraer are going to get their lunch eaten unless they do something.

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
The CSeries would be an ideal plane for all larger European carriers

   I think it would be great for IAG, start of the LGW 734 replacement & supplement the Nostrum CRJ fleet where an IB mainline A319 is not needed. Lots of other small carriers in Europe too like RO, LG, SN, TP (Portugalia), AY. Alaso LATAM & AV in South America.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlinebonusonus From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 19903 times:

There were some rumors about Gulf Air as a launch customer back towards the beginning of this year, but when nothing was announced at Bahrain, those seemed to go away. What were the reasons behind those rumors?

User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 19646 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
They weren't hiding it. That is complete bull. If they tried to hide it, that would be a securities violation. It was completely above board and public...it just wasn't advertised to the general public.

First, it is not a securities violation and where was it "public" as you claim? Second. there is not a single BBD qtrly report where they discuss it. Third, not a single analysts briefing that they discuss it. Fourth, that the two major industry periodicals didn't know about it until they broke the news just before Farnborough, and neither did industry "analysts" who started to blog after the news broke is clear evidence that BBD was hiding it... and for very obvious reasons.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
Nobody seems to have told the customers, or the partners or BBD themselves since they all have committed billions to the program and I am guessing at least a few of them are somewhat familiar with the airline business.

No one seems to have told the customers, or partners or the OEMs themselves, etc, etc, etc, on ALL the failed programs throughout history, either. So your point is??

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 24):
You may not like it but the CSeries will be made, will fly and will be sold.

I have said that the CSeries will eventually be a good aircraft... but that it will have a 12-18 month EIS delay and that ultimately it won't be a success... and I have laid out why in detail several times. For you to sweep the significant challenges that BBD face in just getting the CSeries to EIS is ignoring the obvious... particularly given their late EIS track record with "conventional" and "derivative" programs... let alone an all-new Al-Li, CFRP, FBW large aircraft that they have NEVER designed nor obviously built before.

Quoting queb (Reply 25):
You see what you want to see. Most analysts see the price of oil between $140 and $200 in 2016.

No, I am reporting what Avitas laid out at ISTAT. And since then we see that Europe is not economically recovering and that growth in the US has remained depressed. Meanwhile, domestic oil production is growing while consumption is decreasing. Refined petroleum product exports dethroned Boeing as export king last year. And fracking is not only getting cheaper but is opening up shale oil reserves around the world.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinesaloman From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 122 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 19610 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 30):
No, I am reporting what Avitas laid out at ISTAT. And since then we see that Europe is not economically recovering and that growth in the US has remained depressed. Meanwhile, domestic oil production is growing while consumption is decreasing. Refined petroleum product exports dethroned Boeing as export king last year. And fracking is not only getting cheaper but is opening up shale oil reserves around the world.

Not to get caught up on details like oil price, but this is actually quite a remarkable statement. You're right to point out the projected increase in supply, but by singularly pointing out the EU and US to demonstrate a fall in demand makes no sense considering the projected grown in demand is all from non-OECD countries (notably China and India). Long story short, oil will be nowhere near $40 by mid-decade. The bean counters at airlines have figured this out, which explains why those who can afford the capital expenditures are investing heavily in newer planes - and why there is a market for the NEO, MAX, and yes, the C-Series.

Obviously scope clauses, pricing, etc. can sway the market to different manufacturers, but these are predictions that are much less of a science, and thus more subjective. My suggestion would be to stick with your arguments regarding the actual process of constructing the plane because the market is there, and the success or failure of BBD on this program will have more to do with timely delivery and as-promised performance.


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 19575 times:

Quoting saloman (Reply 31):
makes no sense considering the projected grown in demand is all from non-OECD countries (notably China and India)..

You make a common mistake in vastly overestimating non-OECD impact. To give you an idea, from 2005-2001 China's GDP increased by 86% while China's oil consumption increased by 54.3%... yet global oil consumption only increased by 0.5% (and GDP by 14.7%).

Quoting saloman (Reply 31):
Long story short, oil will be nowhere near $40 by mid-decade.
Quote:
Maugeri thinks the tipping point will be 2015. Until then, the oil market will be “highly volatile” and “prone to extreme movements in opposite directions.” But after 2015, Maugeri predicts a “glut of oil,” which could lead to a fall, or even a “collapse,” in prices.
Reuters - The coming glut in oil – and its impact

The combination of increasing oil production, stagnant US/EU economic growth yet increasing fuel efficiency and alternatives globally is going to make AVITAS have the last laugh.

Quoting saloman (Reply 31):
Obviously scope clauses, pricing, etc. can sway the market to different manufacturers, but these are predictions that are much less of a science, and thus more subjective.

The marketing, sales packaging and financing power of Airbus and Boeing are not "subjective"... they are proven and something that BBD cannot match. Just look at how Airbus removed the CS300 from Frontier.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (2 years 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 18332 times:

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 34):
When do we expect the full fuse to be joined together?

it's underway


User currently offlineSSTeve From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 706 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 17963 times:

Yeah, the section to the left with windows doesn't exist, either.

User currently offlineTangowhisky From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 926 posts, RR: 7
Reply 35, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 17825 times:

Quoting planemaker (Reply 32):
lobal oil consumption only increased by 0.5%
Quoting planemaker (Reply 30):
Meanwhile, domestic oil production is growing while consumption is decreasing. Refined petroleum product exports dethroned Boeing as export king last year. And fracking is not only getting cheaper but is opening up shale oil reserves around the world.

I agree that world oil production will increase and that given all things being equal (like $US does not collapse), there will be downward pressure on oil prices. In that scenario, it may not be directly helpful to the CSeries case, but on the other hand, airline profitability and margins should improve. Cheap oil means cheap food and therefore more disposable income and therefore more people flying. In essence cheap oil would mean a healthier airline industry that would mean more aircraft demand.



Only the paranoid survive
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 36, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17693 times:

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 37):

Special effects and photoshop and mass hallucinations and swamp gas. Easy to explain.



What the...?
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17596 times:

Quoting tistpaa727 (Reply 34):
When do we expect the full fuse to be joined together?

Fwd fuse is in join right now.
mid and rear have arrived from china
aft is built

look for a complete fuse by end of next month.

Anyone know when the wings will arrive?


User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 38, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 17522 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 40):
look for a complete fuse by end of next month.

So a roll-out this year seems likely, but first flight is still at least 6 months away ?



It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17330 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 39):
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 37):
Special effects and photoshop and mass hallucinations and swamp gas. Easy to explain.

I laughed out loud at Starbucks when I read that and quite a few people looked at me and smiled. Thanks!

Well I know some secondary businesses are gearing up and what they have been told about delivery dates. Even BBD is estimating because NO program at this stage can be rock hard in dates. However, secondary businesses aren't going to spend money gearing up at this stage if the first flight date is going to be so late as some hope for.


User currently onlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 667 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (2 years 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 17170 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 22):
On the other hand there are airlines that have placed large order for the A32xNEO or 737Max but without considering the smallest version the A319NEO or the 737Max. Lufthansa for example will need a CS300 sized plane after they retired the 737. As Nico Buchholz their fleet planer has said the A319 and A319NEO are too heavy for most intra German and shorter European routes.
The CSeries would be an ideal plane for all larger European carriers Air France, Alitalia, British Airways, Iberia, KLM......
raft

I can assure you LH will be heavily evaluating the ones they ordered for LX. If they like what they see, we will some cseries aircraft sporting the german crane soon there after


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16447 times:

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 42):
So a roll-out this year seems likely, but first flight is still at least 6 months away ?

I'd say we should see a complete ac less motors by year-end.


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 16036 times:

All main systems now up and running on the ground test aircraft

http://www.bombardier.com/en/aerospa...ses/details?docID=0901260d802446e7

http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BA_CSeries-ISTCR1-HR.jpg


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 15986 times:

Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-2yqKDU2AU&feature=youtu.be

User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15930 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting queb (Reply 45):
All main systems now up and running on the ground test aircraft

The rest of us call that an 'iron bird.'  

Actually, its a bit more than an iron bird. It is a HITL (Hardware in the loop) test with an iron bird and the simulated aerodynamic loads are done better than I've often seen. It is a little better than the HITL+ iron bird I *might* be working on next year.    So pardon me if I think I might have something to contribute.  
Quoting mad99 (Reply 44):
Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 42):
So a roll-out this year seems likely, but first flight is still at least 6 months away ?

I'd say we should see a complete ac less motors by year-end.

It usually takes 6 to 9 months of iron bird testing and then retesting after the fix has been identified prior to first flight. Some of that time is dependent on software maturity. Good luck finding the true software status. Its tough enough if you are on a program and are the liaison with software! I challenge anyone whom has done large project integration to disagree with that statement.

Lightsaber

late edit:
Any updates on Air Asia and the C-series? I wouldn't expect anything at this time, but I thought to ask.

[Edited 2012-08-27 15:52:25]


Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 15925 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

My prediction was for the C-series to see 4,000 sales of 28,000 large (100+ seat) narrowbodies.

http://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/n...s-rivals-on-its-tail--.html?page=2

To be sure, the larger end of the narrow-body market is where the growth is. Sales in the smaller range (100 to 149 seats) make up just 14 percent of overall narrow-body sales, according to the AirInsight report.

But over the next two decades, Hamilton said, the 100-to-149 seat market is still sizable: 5,000 to 6,900 aircraft.


Huh... my math says that analyst is predicting an overall larger market than I am.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 15856 times:

That plane doesn't look very aerodynamic...it'll never get off of the ground.


What the...?
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2241 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15692 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 49):
That plane doesn't look very aerodynamic...it'll never get off of the ground.

And some people think the A380 isn't pretty, that looks like the Bride of Frankenstein airplane     


User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15519 times:

Merci, Queb!

Somewhat further from the chest...


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 15581 times:

Bombardier starts final assembly of CSeries test vehicle

Dewar says the static test fuselage is in its final assembly. The next component, the wing, will be coming to Bombardier "shortly," he says.

"The fuselage is completely in Montreal now, and actually a number of the other sections are already being joined, and the other ones are in process," says Dewar.

Dewar says he is confident that the static test fuselage will be assembled before the end of September, or possibly even before.

Dewar says that Bombardier is still expecting to receive components for the FTV-1 flight test vehicle in September, and that it has already started to receive "a number of components" for it.

Dewar says that the flight test vehicle is still planned for a first flight by the end of the 2012.


http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ly-of-cseries-test-vehicle-376005/


User currently offlinestarrion From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1126 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 15380 times:

So they are getting parts now and think they will still fly this year? That's some weapons grade denial right there.


Knowledge Replaces Fear
User currently offlineBD500 From Canada, joined Feb 2010, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 15090 times:

For comparison, does anyone know how long it took before the 787 and the A380 flew for the first time after the final assembly line process started?

User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 79
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14987 times:

Quoting BD500 (Reply 54):
For comparison, does anyone know how long it took before the 787 and the A380 flew for the first time after the final assembly line process started?

For the 787 is was over 2 years. However, one single event (the side-of-body discover) is responsible for 6 months of that. I think the A380 was similar, although it depends a lot on where you consider the final assembly line process to have started.

Tom.


User currently offlinespeedygonzales From Norway, joined Sep 2007, 732 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 14948 times:

Quoting BD500 (Reply 54):
For comparison, does anyone know how long it took before the 787 and the A380 flew for the first time after the final assembly line process started?

Here's MSN 001 on a barge in Bordeaux 20.05.2004. FF was 27.04.2005, so about 11 months from FAL start to FF for the A380.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Pierre-Clement Got




Las Malvinas son Argentinas
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14254 times:

So the complete fuse is now joined with final drilling going on in the fatigue tool.

The wings should arrive from Belfast in about a month (discussions on what travel work is acceptable).

Moving along quickly!!


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 13928 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 57):

Thanks for the update. Keep them coming.



What the...?
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 13338 times:

The first fuselage (static frame) is completed :

http://www.bombardier.com/wps/portal...edia-centre?docID=0901260d8024eb1e

http://www.bombardier.com/files/fr/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BA-CSeries_CAST1-HR.jpg
http://www.bombardier.com/files/fr/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BA-CSeries_CAST-HR.jpg


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 13095 times:

Groovy...is there any news on the status of the first flight test airframe?


What the...?
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13069 times:

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 60):
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-of-first-cseries-fuselage-376523/
http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...858c5a-9fd9-4ace-b09a-b7c0c2ca416b


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 13018 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 61):

Excellent...hadn't gotten around to checking the dailies yet.

I'm adding a ling from this thread which has a video describing the assembly process;

CSeries - First Look At A 'Real' Fuselage (by Jean Leloup Sep 14 2012 in Civil Aviation)


http://skiesmag.com/news/articles/17...series-test-airframe-progress.html



What the...?
User currently offlineyyztpa From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 39 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 12882 times:

I find the AWST article to read negative. The article doesn't raise anything new but instead appears to 'rain on the parade'.

Do you think the article is justified?


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 12738 times:

Quoting yyztpa (Reply 63):

It doesn't hurt to be reminded that despite current progress, they are working on their most ambitious program yet and they haven't always hit home runs on opening day.

I'm pleased with every advance but until the thing is flying with the launch customer, (whomever that might be), one should take every forecast with a grain of salt.



What the...?
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12461 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I want to talk first flight.

Normally, that happens 12 to 20 months after the lab starts testing. I'm not talking "Aircraft 0," that comes in later in the lab and isn't required for 80% of the testing. So the question is, when did Bombardier start lab testing?

The lab is important as *all* failure modes that could be encountered in a flight might be tested in the lab first. Everything from a nominal flight (low speed taxi, mid to high speed taxi through the takeoff, rotation, landing gear up, flap retraction, etc.) That is easy.

What is tough is failing all the comm, power, and other systems. Until that is done, no flight that uses a sub-system.

So I estimate first flight is not before April just off the labs.

I've talked nothing of integration. That is its own parallel effort.

Quoting aircellist (Thread starter):
official admission of the possibility that the CSeries first flight might be late...
Quoting planemaker (Reply 7):
While BBD is still driving for a theoretical end of year first flight

I will agree with planemaker, unlikely.

Quoting speedygonzales (Reply 56):
about 11 months from FAL start to FF for the A380.

A narrowbody should be able to beat the speed of the largest aircraft. However, if I take a drink and put a thumb in the wind, from Integration and ground test (including fuel dock testing), I get a May or June first flight time frame for a narrowbody.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 63, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12051 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):

Quoting aircellist (Thread starter):
official admission of the possibility that the CSeries first flight might be late...
Quoting planemaker (Reply 7):
While BBD is still driving for a theoretical end of year first flight

I will agree with planemaker, unlikely.

Be my guest 


User currently offlineplanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6180 posts, RR: 34
Reply 64, posted (1 year 12 months 3 hours ago) and read 11392 times:

Quoting yyztpa (Reply 63):

Do you think the article is justified?

In addition to the the two programs mentioned in the article:

Quote:
Those amongst us with long memories will remember the service-introduction problems Bombardier had with the Q400 and CRJ700 regional aircraft. From first flight to service entry was 25 months for the Q400 and 21 months for the CRJ700 - around twice the test time Bombardier has planned for the CSeries - and early dispatch-reliability problems showed neither was quite ready for prime time when delivered.

Those with shorter memories will remember that from first flight to service entry for the CRJ900 was longer than for the CRJ700 - 27 months. The CRJ1000's was 28 months. Considering how much more technologically advanced the CSeries is to the CRJs, Aviation Week's point is justified.

While BBD is far from any cash crunch - it had $2.5 billion end of June (though down from $3.4 billion cash 6 months earlier) and $1.4-billion in available credit, they did recently issue a memo to employees regarding conserving cash. The austerity program to save cash included, among many items, canceling company funding for xmas parties.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 10825 times:

The wings have shipped from Belfast.

The first full join will start at the end of this week.


User currently offlineaircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1719 posts, RR: 8
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 10320 times:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ftv-1-to-arrive-in-october-376749/

Assembly of the static-test airframe should be complete in october. Wings for the first flight-test aircraft should arrive next month as well. Admission that first flight could be delayed to first quarter 2013, but service entry still planned for end of 2013.

Fuselage picture in the article.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2184 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9615 times:

Is BBD always going to charter an AN-124 to get the wings from Belfast to Canada, or will they eventually arrive by ship? That has to be expensive, especially if production ramps up.

User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 9606 times:

BBD uses the AN-124 only when it is urgent   , normally it will be by ship.

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 9497 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 71):

Is BBD always going to charter an AN-124 to get the wings from Belfast to Canada, or will they eventually arrive by ship? That has to be expensive, especially if production ramps up.

Sure it will be expensive, but probably still less than shipping. A bespoke consignment like this can't just be slipped into a shipping container and stacked on a box freighter, you would more than likely have to charter your own ship which is still major $$$ and doesn't deliver it straight to BBD's door.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2461 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9211 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 73):
Sure it will be expensive, but probably still less than shipping

   Doubt it. Not sure of the specs but Im guessing it doesnt "need" that great domed crate. The other picture shows a regular flat deck truck. There are weekly bulk services from Liverpool to Halifax and its pretty cheap. A truck from Belfast across to Liverpool on the ferry is pretty cheap and a truck from Halifax to YMX is pretty cheap. I bet I should ship a set of wings for around $30k even with that crate. Thats about $500k cheaper than chartering the AN124.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 9173 times:

The Port of Montreal is open year round, (with the help of icebreakers), so wings and such could possibly be delivered right to the BBD doorstep.

Boeing ships whole 737 fuses by rail so there really shouldn't be a bottleneck getting parts from the ocean. There are lots of options.



What the...?
User currently offliner2rho From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2630 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8564 times:

Great to see some progress on the CSeries that shows it is no longer a "paper plane" but something you can "touch and see". There likely remains a lot to test & integrate but seeing the first fuselage get assembled and wings being shipped will garner more confidence in the program.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 65):
from Integration and ground test (including fuel dock testing), I get a May or June first flight time frame

I agree with you. Still, if they can make that Q2 2013 FF timeframe, it's a very good achievement, I'd be happy with that. Fingers crossed.


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8391 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 76):
Wings are loaded into this box for shipping :

Does this go by air or sea? Clearly it's beyond the scope of containerised shipping if the latter.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineSomeone83 From Norway, joined Sep 2006, 3386 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8360 times:

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 78):
Quoting queb (Reply 76):
Wings are loaded into this box for shipping :

Does this go by air or sea? Clearly it's beyond the scope of containerised shipping if the latter.


Dan  

Goes easily on a ro-ro ship  


User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11655 posts, RR: 60
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8355 times:

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 79):
Goes easily on a ro-ro ship  

Perhaps availability and cost of that option has come down since a few years ago when I looked with a friend. He got his RV over to the UK easily for about $50 a square foot (plus insurance etc...), to take it back was two or three hundred with few available options, so he sold it here instead. Thinking about it, maybe the US slowdown has meant less Range Rovers/Aston Martins etc... being shipped over there.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 7639 times:

CAST left wing joined but not drilled, should be drilled tomorrow (today is a holiday in Montreal) and right joined and drilled by Friday.

First flying ac fuse has mid to fwd joined with drilling under way.

Mid to rear will happen this week and aft to rear next week.

Wings should arrive 1st week of Nov.


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

http://www.bombardier.com/wps/portal...edia-centre?docID=0901260d8025df91

CAST (static frame) with wings
http://www.bombardier.com/files/en/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BA-CSeries-static-testing-fuselage-wing-A-HR.jpg

FTV1 (MSN 50001) fuselage
http://www.bombardier.com/files/fr/supporting_docs/image_and_media/products/BA-CSeries-Flight-Test-Vehicle-1-HR.jpg


User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6431 times:

CSeries FTV1 assembly update video with Robert Dewar (program manager)

http://youtu.be/zko7MFEJU2o

Note that the picture of MSN 50001 in the previous post has been took 11 days ago

[Edited 2012-10-15 17:15:20]

[Edited 2012-10-15 17:47:06]

User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6422 times:

Newest progress video from BBD;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zko7MFEJU2o



What the...?
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6197 times:
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Quoting queb (Reply 83):
CSeries FTV1 assembly update video with Robert Dewar (program manager)
Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 84):
ewest progress video from BBD;

Thank you for the link. I enjoyed seeing the progress. Errr.. you both linked the same video.  


They are starting to look like real aircraft!   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineANM604 From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 141 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6112 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 85):
Thank you for the link. I enjoyed seeing the progress

Amen! Looks like BBD is starting to gain some momentum in the project!


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6004 times:

In the vids they show the rear section having the bulkhead attached, this is done and the rear is attached to the fuse.
The aft will be joined later this week and look for the wings to be joined 1st week of Nov.


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 5982 times:

Quoting queb (Reply 83):

You beat me with the video link. I'll have the mods remove mine.



What the...?
User currently onlinequeb From Canada, joined May 2010, 682 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

CSeries rhs wing

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8051/8077461351_a3242cc4fa_h.jpg


User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Has BBD done the ultimate load test on the CSeries wing?


What the...?
User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13110 posts, RR: 100
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5213 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 90):
Has BBD done the ultimate load test on the CSeries wing?

On a demonstrator wing:
http://farnborough.aero.bombardier.com/en/20100719b_news.jsp

However, that wasn't a complete wing. So I believe the static rig will still have to do an ultimate load test.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineJoeCanuck From Canada, joined Dec 2005, 5455 posts, RR: 30
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

Here's a podcast from Airinsight with Rob Dewar of BBD concerning flight test vehicle 1, the production timeline, CIASTA, the wood mockup and expectations going forward.

http://iagblog.podomatic.com/entry/2012-10-17T08_12_42-07_00

[Edited 2012-10-18 07:54:57]


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