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Report From India Says 787 Is 7,5t Overweight  
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 22260 times:

Read here
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...787s-air-india-250-seater-aircraft

"The Dreamliners are overweight by 7.5 tonnes, from its initial design. They were supposed to be 17% more fuel efficient vis-a-vis the A-330 aircraft. But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%," a senior official from the civil aviation ministry told ET on conditions of anonymity."

This could, if at all, make sense if the 'senior official' was referring to lot LN10-LN19 airplanes. But Air India planes are all from later lots that should have a significantly lower empty weight and better performance.   

Maybe Boeing made a sales pitch to Air India for additional airplanes from lot LN10-LN19? Maybe as part of the compensation talks? And the "senior official" just didn't get it?

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7233 posts, RR: 17
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 22062 times:

   What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I looked at the 787 delivery thread and the latest post said they haven't set a delivery date yet. Are they trying to get Boeing to "fix" something? Or get more of a discount? Can't they just shut up and take the plane already?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 21894 times:
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Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

AI filed two compensation claims with Boeing: one for the delivery delays and one for performance shortfalls. AI agreed to separate the two and have come to an agreement with Boeing for the delivery delays. They still have the performance claim.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
his could, if at all, make sense if the 'senior official' was referring to lot LN10-LN19 airplanes.

Per Aspire Aviation's analysis, LN007-LN019 are at most 6.1t overweight. LN20 was said to be 4.1t overweight, but it also has the MTOW boost. LN35 and LN50 were both said to be a block-point for additional weight reductions.

AI's earliest frames are LN 25, 26, 28, 29, 30, 32 and 35. Of those, LN29 and LN35 are ready for delivery, along with 46 and 54.

So if Aspire Aviation is correct, of the four airframes scheduled for delivery, LN29 should be the heaviest at ~4t, LN35 and LN46 should be lighter and LN54 should be even lighter still. And all should be rated at 228t MTOW.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21717 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
a senior official from the civil aviation ministry told ET on conditions of anonymity."

If this guy really believed what he was saying, he should come out and say it, without hiding behind anonymity. Maybe if these civil servants started working India could have electricty for everyone.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I was going to say God only knows, but i think even god would be scratching his head on this one.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
They were supposed to be 17% more fuel efficient vis-a-vis the A-330 aircraft. But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%

Were they really 17% more fuel efficient than the A330?



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineRheinbote From Germany, joined May 2006, 1968 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21676 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Per Aspire Aviation's analysis, LN007-LN019 are at most 6.1t overweight. LN20 was said to be 4.1t overweight,

Not exactly primary source information. LN10 should already by different from lot LN7-LN9. The real question is: When airplanes go through the EMC, do they lose weight or gain weight?   


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21657 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
Were they really 17% more fuel efficient than the A330?

That has been Air India's claim since 2010 based on their internal models.

Leeham.net's analysis in 2009 using Piano-X showed the 787-8 burning 18% less fuel at spec weight and spec SFC compared to the A330-200 over a distance of 6000 nautical miles with a 51,000 pound payload.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
Per Aspire Aviation's analysis...
Quoting Rheinbote (Reply 4):
Not exactly primary source information.

His source was two people within Boeing on the 787 program. *shrug* And 787 program managers have been claiming the planes meet contracted guarantees on performance even overweight and with lower-than-spec SFC.

[Edited 2012-08-11 10:30:42]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7233 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21573 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
AI filed two compensation claims with Boeing: one for the delivery delays and one for performance shortfalls. AI agreed to separate the two and have come to an agreement with Boeing for the delivery delays. They still have the performance claim.

Wait a second.....aren't 787s built the same? I honestly don't know why they're asking for performance shortfall compensation when they haven't even gotten them delivered yet. Boeing must be getting really pissed at these guys.

If I were the CEO I'd say "you know what? Screw you guys, we're going to sell these to people who actually appreciate the hard work we do." and give them to NH or something.

Then again I'm not the CEO  
Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
I was going to say God only knows, but i think even god would be scratching his head on this one.

  



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21485 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):
That has been Air India's claim since 2010 based on their internal models.

Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330? I cant imagine the 330 having the legs to operate to the US in a suitable configuration.

I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

Would love to know the CASM comparison between an AI 787 and a LH748i. This is crucial, as AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30641 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21385 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330?

They do have two A330-200s on lease. I don't know if Airbus was ever in the running for the 2006 RFP (in which AI ordered 68 Boeing planes).



Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.
AI do have 15 777-300ERs in service or on order and their 787-8s have a tiny Business Class cabin (18 seats) and a large Economy Class cabin (238 seats). So I can only hazard a guess they were looking to open direct hub-to-point markets with the 787-8.

[Edited 2012-08-11 10:54:30]

User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12360 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 21348 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
What the heck are they trying to pull now?!

I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787.

AI's actions seem to make perfect sense to themselves, but not to anyone else.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

AI has 777Ws yet they've parked them and are still flying 747-400s around.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
This is crucial, as AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.

AI doesn't seem to realize this.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 21068 times:

Please don't take my comments as a slight on the 787 - it's not meant that way.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
So I can only hazard a guess they were looking to open direct hub-to-point markets with the 787-8.

That makes sense for ANA and JAL - where low density, high yield markets can be flown non stop, and will justify a premium. (think Boston) It also makes sense from a european / north american perspective, where routes can be proven using a smaller long haul aircraft. the now suspended IAH AKL comes to mind. Can't wait to see what BA are going to do with the 787.

Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

With the competitive strength from Emirates and other European carriers AI have totally lost the RASK battle.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
AI doesn't seem to realize this.

Does the 787 allow AI to win the CASM battle vs an EK 77W to the gulf, an Indigo A320 to Singapore, or a LH 748i to Germany? If not, Air India are finished. They have gone 9 abreast, but the 33in legroom doesnt sound high density.

The government have tried to artifically balance the CASM battle by banning the A380, but all that has done is probably increased frequency from DXB, which has made the DXB hub more attractive for time sensitive passengers, further eroding AI's offering.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
AI has 777Ws yet they've parked them

How long are the leases on these?

Finally - cabin photos and external comments...



"While the 787 is a fantastic plane, sometimes an airline can just mess it up. Here is a first look at Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."

http://boardingarea.com/blogs/livefr...mliner-which-will-go-to-air-india/




"Seriously, Air India – a business class cabin with slab-like seats in orange-red or mushroom-grey, and headrests in a custard yellow cream?"

http://www.ausbt.com.au/photos-insid...er-the-ugliest-787-seats-cabin-yet



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 632 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19533 times:

From personal expereince importing & exporting out of India. Even if a deal was reached tommorow.....
and they started the acceptance process on AUG13th. India would not be able to import the airplanes until 2013...

The ammount of rubber stamping and the infinite number of directors and inspections the airplanes must go thru,then customs will have another parade of inspectors. In the end the process is inneficient at best, and a waste of time and money.
And the bottom line ... it does not add to safety or compliance. India needs to be told to buy some Tupolevs or enter the 21st century of Aviation.


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19187 times:

In my honest opinion AI is seeking another hand out. Yes the B787's are over weight but lets think here for a second. They haven't even flown the damn plane and are complaining about them being overweight. JL and NH both have 787's and seem to be just happy if not thrilled with theirs with one of them being quoted as claiming better than expected fuel burn figures.

User currently offlineflylku From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 800 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18829 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Can't they just shut up and take the plane already?

Indeed. From what I hear, ANA likes theirs and they are a bit more efficient than originally expected.



...are we there yet?
User currently offlineAWACSooner From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 1884 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18678 times:

Quoting rotating14 (Reply 12):
In my honest opinion AI is seeking another hand out.

THIS!


I think I found the source of their weight issue:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12905 posts, RR: 100
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18371 times:
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Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
AI needs to fight for the cost conscious VFR pax, having lost the premium battle long ago.

This is AI's #1 issue. If that isn't fixed... they are done. They are not the lowest CASM, so fighting in the low RASM markets is a death sentence. There product and costs must be brought into alignment with each other. AI must also improve their hubbing... what a wasted opportunity.

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
But the extra weight is likely to reduce that to 12%

That is an interesting number. Boeing likes to benchmark versus the 767, but there is a reason the A332 walked into that market. it shows that the new winglets would not be enough. It is time for Airbus to focus on the A350.   


Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
I looked at the 787 delivery thread and the latest post said they haven't set a delivery date yet.

   This is AI, it will take a while.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
Wait a second.....aren't 787s built the same?

Planes vary a bit plane to plane due to material thickness variation. CFRP will have more variation than aluminum, but there were always variations. The goal of six-sigma is to reduce those variations.

The other part is a weight reduction program on the part of Boeing. Parts and even assemblies are being changed. This has to be done to bring the weight in line.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

   And AI doesn't like limits imposed on their side of the contract.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
The government have tried to artifically balance the CASM battle by banning the A380, but all that has done is probably increased frequency from DXB, which has made the DXB hub more attractive for time sensitive passengers, further eroding AI's offering.

   Yes! And it doesn't matter. DXB brings multiple waves per day of customers from 27 (IIRC) European destinations, some parts of Asia, and Africa to India. AI lost a battle it should have easily won.   

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 18287 times:

Quoting Rheinbote (Thread starter):
Maybe Boeing made a sales pitch to Air India for additional airplanes from lot LN10-LN19? Maybe as part of the compensation talks? And the "senior official" just didn't get it?

Maybe the "senior official" called Boeing's call center in India and just didn't get it, even after repeatedly being told by the call center representative "not to worry, everything will be ok, I assure you Mr Senior Official."


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 17575 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

I think their theory is that the fuel burn improvement would be enough to tip more routes over into profitability. At least, that's been part of their public rhetoric.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
"While the 787 is a fantastic plane, sometimes an airline can just mess it up. Here is a first look at Air India’s economy cabin, which will have 238 seats in a 3-3-3 (9 abreast) configuration, also known as bonecrushing for those who have to survive a 10+ hour flight in those seats."

I've flown 18+ hours in those exact seats in that exact cabin. To call it "bonecrushing" is, basically, whining without evidence.

Tom.


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 16909 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I think the issue is not that the 787 is heavy, rather the issue is that their pockets are light.

This is absolutely correct. i would speculate they really dont have the money for the airplanes to begin with, and they were seeking the insane compensation level in an effort to get the planes essentailly for free. Now they are to phase two of that effort. I hope whatever Boeing decides to give them compensation wise, they stretch out the payments or discounts to AI over the next 200 airframes they buy.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 15204 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 3):
If this guy really believed what he was saying, he should come out and say it, without hiding behind anonymity. Maybe if these civil servants started working India could have electricty for everyone.

There is a media gag order in place at Ministry of Civil Aviation and Air India Ltd. This has been the case for almost a decade now.

"coming out and saying it" is like asking to be fired - something no holder of a cushy government job would even contemplate. The only employees who might do it are striking pilots or something, who have nothing to lose.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Thanks for that - but were AI really considering the A330? I cant imagine the 330 having the legs to operate to the US in a suitable configuration.

Yes, AI considered the A330, and 787 for it's midhaul network. The 787s were originally going to replace the A310s in AIs fleet. Due to the delays, the A310s were phased out without replacement.

The 777s were meant to operate to the US - 787s were not planned to operate to the US, and there are no concrete plans to date to operate the same.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
I still don't get why AI bought the 787. India (for Air India) should be volume driven, low yield market. I cant see how the 787 will give AI a CASM advantage over their biggest direct competitor - an EK 77W.

AI's 77W is meant to give it a CASM advantage over the EK 77W. The 787s were meant to serve a different purpose.

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 10):
Meanwhile over in planet Air India, Considering only two routes (from memory) in their entire network are profitable today, what they need to do is get their current operation in order.

3 routes from AI's longhaul network are profitable. Some routes like YYZ lose over $50 million a year. However, thanks to political interference, AI cannot cancel the "prestige" routes.

AI's midhaul (gulf, southeast asia), shorthaul (KTM, BKK), and domestic routes are far more profitable. These routes are generally referred to as "IC (Indian Airlines) routes" in the media and by management and political figures.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 562 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14830 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
cushy government job

For a second I thought you were talking about working for AI!

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 15):
AI lost a battle it should have easily won.   

Haha, the only battle AI is going to win anytime is "most embarrassing/pathetic/pick-your-adjective Indian airline." It's just mind-boggling how even with everything the GoI has done to try to prop up AI, it continues to fail and only survive on handouts. The 5-year rule preventing competitors like 9W/6E from flying internationally comes to mind. Then you also have moles like PP who's inexplicable decisions led to what appears to be a poorly thought out order of widebodies that AI truthfully probably doesn't even know what to do with. That can be the only explanation for the ridiculous comments coming from AI officials about the 787. Not to mention the absolutely abhorrent process of int'l-to-domestic connections at Indian airports. It's a little better at DEL, but just marginally. Then of course you have AI's entry in the *A, and then the inability of any other airline to join an alliance (assuming they were wanted). Just embarrassing.


User currently offlinebestwestern From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2000, 7090 posts, RR: 57
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14723 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
3 routes from AI's longhaul network are profitable. Some routes like YYZ lose over $50 million a year. However, thanks to political interference, AI cannot cancel the "prestige" routes.

AI's midhaul (gulf, southeast asia), shorthaul (KTM, BKK), and domestic routes are far more profitable. These routes are generally referred to as "IC (Indian Airlines) routes" in the media and by management and political figures.

Firstly, define profitable... "Of 300 routes, only three make money." said Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh to Business Standard on August 9th

http://www.rediff.com/business/slide...ajit-singh/20120809.htm?print=true



The world is really getting smaller these days
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7233 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14722 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 19):
There is a media gag order in place at Ministry of Civil Aviation and Air India Ltd. This has been the case for almost a decade now.

So in reality, nobody really knows much about AI except for the AI employees themselves?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14606 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 20):
It's just mind-boggling how even with everything the GoI has done to try to prop up AI, it continues to fail and only survive on handouts. The 5-year rule preventing competitors like 9W/6E from flying internationally comes to mind.

*facepalm*

Please try to understand Indian politics before coming up with such rubbish. The 5-year rule was created to help 9W, which has never really considered AI "competition."

This attitude that the private carriers are somehow "underdogs" has to go. The private carriers are more powerful than AI ever can be, thanks to a single human trait - greed.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14550 times:

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 21):
Firstly, define profitable... "Of 300 routes, only three make money." said Civil Aviation Minister Ajit Singh to Business Standard on August 9th

As I said, those AI routes. AI routes = longhaul routes.

IC routes (Indian Airlines routes) are short and midhaul routes. While some of those are major money losers too, most of them have more revenue than costs.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
So in reality, nobody really knows much about AI except for the AI employees themselves?

Well, info comes out through the Press Information Bureau and media liaisons, but other than that, info is strictly from "sources" who can't reveal themselves.



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
25 aviasian : A quote from the movie - The Most Exotic Marigold Hoel. "At the end, everything will be all right. And if it is not all right now, then it is not yet
26 Post contains images aeroblogger : I agree. While I love the majestic livery, the interiors of AI scream Sarkar (Government) of India. A far cry from the once exotic interiors that AI
27 zeke : Unless people outside AI and Boeing are privy to the agreed specifications, any claims that they are not true I think are baseless. Spec weights tend
28 bestwestern : AI doesnt have 300 routes. Melbourne is a folly. If they cant get Europe right, how will melbourne work.
29 Post contains images lightsaber : This is something I do not get. Why is it so difficult (per reports, I've yet to fly to India) to transfer international to domestic in India? As lon
30 bestwestern : An airline with 297 loss making routes wants to fly to Melbourne rather than using the aircraft to reduce costs on current routes. This company is a d
31 aeroblogger : Indeed. Without the IC routes, the total amount of routes AI operates is more like 100. With the IC routes, it is more like 500. I have absolutely no
32 9w748capt : Oh give me a physical break. 9W has never considered AI competition? Which universe are you living in? 9W was the very first private airline in India
33 Post contains images Thomas_Jaeger : The last company I worked for participated in an Air India tender for which you had to pay a deposit to get the tender documentation. We were shortlis
34 Post contains images IndianicWorld : Seriously, is anyone really surprised that AI are taking these actions? Really?? Another faceless govt person making statements. Another day in the wo
35 bizmark03 : Besides the fact that AI is a miserably run company, why is everyone blaming just AI? Knowing how things work in India, Boeing surely must have grease
36 BMI727 : Caving to Air India's demands for compensation (at least to some degree) essentially is the greasing of the palms to ensure that India likes them eno
37 bestwestern : In the US, thats called lobbying.
38 sweair : If they put 238 economy seats in a 788 I guess a 748i would be a better choice, they could stuff 450 seats on that plane. The 787 is at its best in th
39 flybyguy : Isn't the only reason why Boeing is putting up with this Air India b.s. because of potentially large military orders?
40 Post contains images Revelation : Embarrassment matters little to these people. This type of transaction is their chance to get their palms greased and that matters a lot more than a
41 ebj1248650 : And yet the airline is still in business. How can that be if only three routes make money, even assuming those money making routes are raking in the
42 Post contains links aeroblogger : When it started maybe. But ever since 9W has established itself as the top private carrier, it's been doing everything it can to maintain its place.
43 RobK : Well presumably as it's a govt run airline, the Indian tax-payers are essentially keeping them afloat.
44 aeroblogger : While Indian taxpayers indeed are paying to keep AI afloat, the amounts certainly cannot sustain an operation which is losing money on 99% of its rou
45 RobK : That's pretty much the same story the world over with state run 'entities' but somehow they always manage to keep them bumbling along - usually by th
46 aztrainer : Yep, BOAB - Bring On Another Billion. They got what they asked for last time and it shocked many. They may want to see if the well still has some liq
47 rotating14 : That's what I'm thinking too. The best example that comes to mind is Ryan Air. Both Airbus and Boeing think twice when it comes to dealing with them.
48 Post contains images BEG2IAH : Looks to me like they summed up how much each aircraft is overweight and came up with a total of 7.5 t. See below: Would Boeing ever consider dumping
49 BMI727 : No, potential military sales to India are too valuable. It's that tie to the government that kept Boeing from telling AI to shove it and giving them
50 HAWK21M : Dont confuse the TWO......AI is Not INDIA & INDIA is Not AI. Read Media reports with a balanced view......& based on an individuals knowledge
51 PHX787 : One loss of a customer is not the end of the world for Boeing, especially with all of the start ups beginning to happen. And legacies like DL and suc
52 strfyr51 : heck! It's almost common knowlege that Air India doesn't have the Bucks to pay for the final dselivery, and they're NOT getting the Deposit or the pro
53 Stitch : They have funding in place for the first two airframes via a sale and leaseback deal with a UK bank. AI originally had a compensation claim against B
54 HAWK21M : Isn't 19th August the date......
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