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Air Canada DC-8-61/63/54F Routes C.1970?  
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Before the arrival of their first widebody type in late 1971 (747-133), were Air Canada's DC-8-61s and -63s assigned primarily to their domestic/transcon/North American routes or their trans-Atlantic services...or both? Also, on which routes were their DC-8-54F "Jet Trader" combis typically assigned?

With the arrival of the above-mentioned types, were AC's DC-8-43/53s relegated to any particular role(s) or did they continue to be seen regularly on both sides of the North Atlantic?

(AC's pre-747 timetables show all DC-8 types, standard, stretch and combi, simply as "D8")

57 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

The DC-8-61 due to its range was mostly domestic. They were not initially equipped with INS, but they were "over-water" equipped. So, most domestic DC-8 trans-cons were DC-8-61s. When they did fly overseas, they had to carry a navigator. From what I recall, when they did fly the Atlantic, it was from eastern Canada.

The DC-8-63s flew the "Western Arrow" flights. (Western Canada to Europe). They were equipped with INS, so when overseas they did not have to carry a navigator, so it was the preferred overseas DC-8.

The DC-8-54JTs, could always be seen in the timetable as the notation "flight xxx will operate Economy Class only", will follow the flight. No TC/AC DC-8-54JTs were ever equipped with a First Class Cabin, and were usually operated in a combi configuration. They flew everywhere from the Atlantic (usually multi-stop) to trans-cons.

The DC-8-43/53s had an identical cabin, (as incidentally did the DC-8-61/63) and were often interchanged. Looking at old DC-8 manuals, I get the impression that the longest flight the DC-8-43 flew was ZRH-YYZ, or some Western Arrow flights stopping in SNN, or YWG. The longer Western Arrow flights like LHR-YEG/YYC-YVR or LHR-YVR were always scheduled with a DC-8-63 or DC-8-53.

Hope this helps. Oddly enough, the "Western Arrow" name started in the 1960s, and while no longer used by AC, it is still used internally to reference those flights!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 6437 times:

When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.

JD CRP Exjet



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4251 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6401 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.

JD CRP Exjet

I thought this was a thread about Air Canada.



Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6392 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.

South America started in 1953, using DC-6B aircraft. This was upgraded to the Britannia when delivered, then the DC-8 when it arrived. The original flight was YVR-MEX-LIM, and it was extended to points south like BA in 1956.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 853 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6281 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 3):

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.

JD CRP Exjet

I thought this was a thread about Air Canada.

LOL WOOPS! Youre right. Anything to do with DC8s and either TC/AC or CP and I get excited. I cant stop snickering at my self for that oversight.

JD CRPXE



A line is evidence that other people exist.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6142 times:

Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 5):
Anything to do with DC8s and either TC/AC or CP and I get excited.

Well of course ... who wouldn't???



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 5934 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
When they did fly overseas, they had to carry a navigator. From what I recall, when they did fly the Atlantic, it was from eastern Canada.

I believe the DC-8-61 was common at Prestwick, I have seen a fair few photos.


User currently onlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6837 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5783 times:

Looks like you're out of luck-- didn't check carefully, but looks like AC has nothing but "DC8" in the 2/71 OAGs. No D8S.

User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5550 times:

Air Canada did have D8S in 1971 cuz one crashed in YYZ in July 1970.

User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5476 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 9):
Air Canada did have D8S in 1971 cuz one crashed in YYZ in July 1970.

I think what we was referring to, what that in the OAG (his forte) the DC-8 series were not differentiated, and thus he could not help.

In fact, I am sure that was for a reason. AC was (and is) notorious for last minute equipment changes to adjust to last minute load changes. I am sure in 1971 they woldn't guarantee a DC-8-53 vice DC-8-63 any more than today an A319 can magically become an A321 at the last minute.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25440 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 1):
The longer Western Arrow flights like LHR-YEG/YYC-YVR or LHR-YVR were always scheduled with a DC-8-63 or DC-8-53.

CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961. I flew on both sectors on a -43 nonstop, also several times YYC/YEG-AMS. My first transatlantic flight soon after I joined CP was on a CP DC-8-43 YYC-AMS in early 1970. The return flight was on a -63 which stopped at YEG. Checked the winter 69/70 timetable and there were 3 x week YVR-AMS then. One operated YVR-YYC-AMS, one YVR-YEG-AMS, and one YVR-YYC-YEG-AMS. In the westbound direction all 3 flights operated AMS-YEG-YYC-YVR.

Quoting longhauler (Reply 4):
Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.

South America started in 1953, using DC-6B aircraft. This was upgraded to the Britannia when delivered, then the DC-8 when it arrived. The original flight was YVR-MEX-LIM, and it was extended to points south like BA in 1956.

EZE started in 1956 and SCL in 1957.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5189 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961.

Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5052 times:

So the -53/-54 had more range than the -61? Makes sense.

A bit surprised neither AC nor CP ordered a small fleet of -62's.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5037 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 13):
So the -53/-54 had more range than the -61? Makes sense.

At 325,000 lbs, the DC-8-61 had the same MTOW as the DC-8-55 but with the added empty weight of the 440 inch fuselage extension, and added capacity. Range was quite a bit less.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 13):
A bit surprised neither AC nor CP ordered a small fleet of -62's.

The -62 was an extremely capable aircraft, and neither AC nor CP needed the added range of the -62 over the -63. As it stood, the -63 could fly both AC's and CP's longest routes with ease.

(The -43, -53 and 54JT were 315,000 lbs MTOW)



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25440 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961.

Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!
Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
As it stood, the -63 could fly both AC's and CP's longest routes with ease.

Westbound fuel stops at ANC weren't unknown on YVR-HND. My first CP DC-8-63 flight on that sector stopped at ANC, as did my first 747-200 which replaced the -63 on YVR-HND-HKG in 1973. Eastbound was almost always nonstop, even on the -43. I recall a couple of speed records set HND-YVR using -43s when winds were very strong, around 7 hours if memory correct.


User currently offlineusafdo From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 443 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4768 times:

The AC DC-8-61/63's flew all the time to MIA.

We used to fly on it going from MIA to YYZ.

In the winter time there would be 3 Super DC-8 flights a day from MIA. Two to Toronto and 1 to Montreal.

During the summer months AC would fly the DC-9-32 from MIA to YUL/YYZ.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 12):
Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!

Weren''t DC-8 s operated CP slightly different than AC's by having a slightly increased chord near the wing root, allowing to fly slightly longer routes ? Grant McConachie had them advertised as Super DC-8s,, II9RC.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17):
Weren''t DC-8 s operated CP slightly different than AC's by having a slightly increased chord near the wing root, allowing to fly slightly longer routes ?

In all of the DC-8 books I have, (far too many), I can find no reference to that.

Perhaps what you are thinking of is that when the initial airframes came off the line (Trans-Canada's first batch of DC-8s included), they didn't quite meet performance guarantees. To solve this, wing slots were added, and wing tips were extended.

Trans-Canada's were eventually modified. CP's however, being the 124th+ airframes built, would already have had that modification completed at the factory.

Also, TC's first DC-8s were DC-8-41s which were modified to DC-8-42s, the rest were delivered as DC-8-43s. All of CP's DC-8-40s were -43s right from the factory. Apart from being 5000 lbs heavier, the -43 had a different flap linkage that improved performance as well. But the performance comparison I was making above were AC's DC-8-43s to CP's DC-8-43.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently onlinetimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6837 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4567 times:

I don't know of any book that lists which DC-8s got the 4%-longer-chord wing. (Far as I know it's the same 4% all along the wing, not just near the root.)

User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3095 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4556 times:

Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 9):
Air Canada did have D8S in 1971 cuz one crashed in YYZ in July 1970.

AC had DC8s much later than that. In fact Air Canada had the distinction of being the last original owner of DC-8s, into the mid-1990s. They flew DC-8-73Fs that had been converted from their -63s IIRC.

When AC started the SFO-YYC and YEG routes in the mid-1970s it was usually a 727 and I think I recall seeing DC-9s occasionally too. However, quite surprisingly I remember seeing DC-8-61s or -63s on occasion also.


User currently offlineyyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16285 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4533 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 18):
Also, TC's first DC-8s were DC-8-41s which were modified to DC-8-42s, the rest were delivered as DC-8-43s. All of CP's DC-8-40s were -43s right from the factory. Apart from being 5000 lbs heavier, the -43 had a different flap linkage that improved performance as well. But the performance comparison I was making above were AC's DC-8-43s to CP's DC-8-43.

How did the operational performance of the -43 compare to the -53/54?



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4530 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
AC had DC8s much later than that. In fact Air Canada had the distinction of being the last original owner of DC-8s, into the mid-1990s. They flew DC-8-73Fs that had been converted from their -63s IIRC.

That is correct, the last DC-8 left the fleet in 1994. The DC-8-73Fs.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
When AC started the SFO-YYC and YEG routes in the mid-1970s it was usually a 727 and I think I recall seeing DC-9s occasionally too. However, quite surprisingly I remember seeing DC-8-61s or -63s on occasion also.

Actually it was the other way around. The YEG-YYC-SFO-YYC-YEG route started as a DC-9, late in 1974. At that time, the then brand new all Y class B727s were exclusively used on Rapidairs. YYZ-YUL, YYZ-YOW. It was later that decade that the F/Y B727s started flying the YEG-SFO and YYC-SFO flights.

You may have seen a DC-8 in SFO, possibly an equipment substitution, for those routes, or the new YYZ-SFO route, which began as an L1011, then evolved to DC-8s then B727s.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2288 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4519 times:

Any info for AC DC-8's out of YHZ in 1970s?


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5003 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4511 times:

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21):
How did the operational performance of the -43 compare to the -53/54?

The biggest gain was due to reduced fuel burn of the JT3Ds of the -53/54 over the RCo12s of the -43. Empty weight was about the same, and MTOW was exactly the same at 315,000 lbs.

I also see looking at the books, that the runway required for take-off was better for the -53/54s, but requirements for landing were less on the -43! Probably a function of effectiveness of the reverse thrust of the ejector/clam shells of the -43 over the cascades of the -53/54. (But I honestly don't know why ... it was only a marginal landing difference).



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
25 longhauler : YHZ was a big DC-8 operational base for AC. All series -43/53/54/61/63. Domestically, they flew to YYT, YQX, YUL and YYZ, several flights a day. Inte
26 bobloblaw : I flew short bodied DC-8s from YUL-YHZ in 1976 and D8S from YYZ-YHZ and back in the early 1980s. The YYZ flights set up the LHR flights which stopped
27 bobloblaw : Anyone know what type of model the DC-8 that crashed in Dec 1963 in YUL was? Also was the routing YUL-YYZ-YVR?
28 Post contains links beechnut : Douglas DC-8-54CF, CF-TJN The destination was YYZ. Link to the archived Commission of Inquiry: http://epe.lac-bac.gc.ca/100/200/301...llies1964-eng/c
29 pnwtraveler : I remember a DC8 - 63 Super Stretch being sustituted on the YYZ to YVR or YEG sometime after 73 but before 75. My Mom hated flying them and was a nerv
30 Viscount724 : The wing chord extension modification is described in many DC-8 sources. Excerpt below from the book "Douglas DC-8", Great Airliners Series Volume Tw
31 longhauler : Yes, I found that one. But, what I was not clear on, was that I could find no reference that CP's DC-8's wings were any different than TCA's DC-8 win
32 BoeingGuy : Since we expanded this threat to discuss the Canadian DC-8s, I'm sure someone can tell me the special significance of one certain Canadian Airlines (l
33 longhauler : And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
34 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : Yes, after the modifications there were no differences. I flew on CF-CPG several times. http://www.airspacemag.com/history-o...here-Boeing-Will-Never
35 BoeingGuy : Yeah, that's what I understand too. I think AM flew the airplane for quite awhile IIRC. I have all the Great Airliners Series books, including the DC
36 longhauler : Also interesting about that book ... it contains the only "known" picture of CF-TIW. (there is the infamous, taken from a cab photo, but has anyone e
37 Post contains images aircellist : From the article: sold for scrap...
38 connies4ever : One other "'short 8" route that operated for a while at that time was YVR-YWG-JFK. Later became a DC-9 service, later still abandoned. I guess it was
39 Tomassjc : Although late in the decade, I just noticed in Air Canada's April 1978 timetable: AC104 D8S Victoria-Vancouver-Edmonton-Ottawa-Montreal-Halifax-St Joh
40 Post contains links and images Viscount724 : I think you're referring to the very first DC-8, "Ship One", that was operated by Aeromexico before it was retired. It was also operated by several o
41 BoeingGuy : Not only was it interesting to see DC-8s in YYJ, but the YYJ-YVR flight is incredibly short. What did they get to about 5000 feet? It's like doing SJ
42 connies4ever : I've flown YVR-YYJ many times on AC (DC-3, North Star, and Viscount) and also on Air BC (Dash-7). Interestingly, the Dash was the fastest in terms of
43 longhauler : YVR-YYJ is great fun. I have flown it in a B737, A320 and recently in a B767-300. The flying time really depends on the runways used. If you take off
44 connies4ever : Dad flew as FE in Cats/Cansos during the last great unpleasantness and his comment on the aircraft's performance was: "Took off at 60, climbed at 60,
45 Post contains images Rockinflyer : They had service to Lima, Santiago, and Buenos Aires. Sort of a triangle down there at the time. I can't remember any other South American cities CP
46 longhauler : more edit errors, I'll repost this.[Edited 2012-08-25 20:54:18]
47 longhauler : This caught my eye, as I was discussing DC-8 performance with a friend of mine recently. It would appear that DC-8 flight planning differed a great d
48 maxpower1954 : I used to fly Arrow Air DC-8-62s (ex-UA) from LGW to SFO non-stop with a 336,000 MTOW. It's been almost 30 years, but I remember the jetstream was se
49 longhauler : Actually all of Air Canada / Trans-Canada Air Lines DC-8s had unique cockpits that were unlike any other on earth! And what you say is accurate, they
50 maxpower1954 : Thanks for the story Longhauler! You've filled a gap in my DC-8 knowledge base.
51 Post contains images beechnut : Wow, stretch-8 on Victoria-Vancouver and Ottawa-Montreal, the tail would still be over the departure runway as the nose would be starting final appro
52 pnwtraveler : I remember visiting a family friend who was a DC8 then a DC10 pilot for CP out of Vancouver. His comment on the DC8 was that you knew you were flying
53 Viscount724 : Was the December '82 flight on CP? If so it couldn't have been a -50 series. Apart from a -55F combi that was sold in 1978 to a British cargo operato
54 Post contains images beechnut : I may be mistaken on the dates, I think it might have been December 81 when I flew out and Jan. 82 when I flew home. but it definitely was a short-bo
55 goosebayguy : I shall always remember them flying into Goose Bay every Wednesday with the fresh veg though it wasn't all that fresh!
56 longhauler : You are correct, the last two -53s were retired from passenger service after the winter 79/80 season, and there were no short-8s carrying passengers
57 Tomassjc : Interesting to know! I do remember flying a CP DC-8-43 SFO-YVR in early 81 and I seem to recall open racks but newer style seats. But then again, it'
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