Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3725 posts, RR: 31 Posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4962 times:
Before the arrival of their first widebody type in late 1971 (747-133), were Air Canada's DC-8-61s and -63s assigned primarily to their domestic/transcon/North American routes or their trans-Atlantic services...or both? Also, on which routes were their DC-8-54F "Jet Trader" combis typically assigned?
With the arrival of the above-mentioned types, were AC's DC-8-43/53s relegated to any particular role(s) or did they continue to be seen regularly on both sides of the North Atlantic?
(AC's pre-747 timetables show all DC-8 types, standard, stretch and combi, simply as "D8")
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 1, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4936 times:
The DC-8-61 due to its range was mostly domestic. They were not initially equipped with INS, but they were "over-water" equipped. So, most domestic DC-8 trans-cons were DC-8-61s. When they did fly overseas, they had to carry a navigator. From what I recall, when they did fly the Atlantic, it was from eastern Canada.
The DC-8-63s flew the "Western Arrow" flights. (Western Canada to Europe). They were equipped with INS, so when overseas they did not have to carry a navigator, so it was the preferred overseas DC-8.
The DC-8-54JTs, could always be seen in the timetable as the notation "flight xxx will operate Economy Class only", will follow the flight. No TC/AC DC-8-54JTs were ever equipped with a First Class Cabin, and were usually operated in a combi configuration. They flew everywhere from the Atlantic (usually multi-stop) to trans-cons.
The DC-8-43/53s had an identical cabin, (as incidentally did the DC-8-61/63) and were often interchanged. Looking at old DC-8 manuals, I get the impression that the longest flight the DC-8-43 flew was ZRH-YYZ, or some Western Arrow flights stopping in SNN, or YWG. The longer Western Arrow flights like LHR-YEG/YYC-YVR or LHR-YVR were always scheduled with a DC-8-63 or DC-8-53.
Hope this helps. Oddly enough, the "Western Arrow" name started in the 1960s, and while no longer used by AC, it is still used internally to reference those flights!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 4, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4875 times:
Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2): When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.
South America started in 1953, using DC-6B aircraft. This was upgraded to the Britannia when delivered, then the DC-8 when it arrived. The original flight was YVR-MEX-LIM, and it was extended to points south like BA in 1956.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
ABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 834 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4764 times:
Quoting brilondon (Reply 3):
Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.
JD CRP Exjet
I thought this was a thread about Air Canada.
LOL WOOPS! Youre right. Anything to do with DC8s and either TC/AC or CP and I get excited. I cant stop snickering at my self for that oversight.
skipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2374 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4417 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 1): When they did fly overseas, they had to carry a navigator. From what I recall, when they did fly the Atlantic, it was from eastern Canada.
I believe the DC-8-61 was common at Prestwick, I have seen a fair few photos.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 10, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3959 times:
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 9): Air Canada did have D8S in 1971 cuz one crashed in YYZ in July 1970.
I think what we was referring to, what that in the OAG (his forte) the DC-8 series were not differentiated, and thus he could not help.
In fact, I am sure that was for a reason. AC was (and is) notorious for last minute equipment changes to adjust to last minute load changes. I am sure in 1971 they woldn't guarantee a DC-8-53 vice DC-8-63 any more than today an A319 can magically become an A321 at the last minute.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 11, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3707 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 1): The longer Western Arrow flights like LHR-YEG/YYC-YVR or LHR-YVR were always scheduled with a DC-8-63 or DC-8-53.
CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961. I flew on both sectors on a -43 nonstop, also several times YYC/YEG-AMS. My first transatlantic flight soon after I joined CP was on a CP DC-8-43 YYC-AMS in early 1970. The return flight was on a -63 which stopped at YEG. Checked the winter 69/70 timetable and there were 3 x week YVR-AMS then. One operated YVR-YYC-AMS, one YVR-YEG-AMS, and one YVR-YYC-YEG-AMS. In the westbound direction all 3 flights operated AMS-YEG-YYC-YVR.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 4): Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.
South America started in 1953, using DC-6B aircraft. This was upgraded to the Britannia when delivered, then the DC-8 when it arrived. The original flight was YVR-MEX-LIM, and it was extended to points south like BA in 1956.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3672 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11): CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961.
Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 14, posted (9 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3520 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 13): So the -53/-54 had more range than the -61? Makes sense.
At 325,000 lbs, the DC-8-61 had the same MTOW as the DC-8-55 but with the added empty weight of the 440 inch fuselage extension, and added capacity. Range was quite a bit less.
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 13): A bit surprised neither AC nor CP ordered a small fleet of -62's.
The -62 was an extremely capable aircraft, and neither AC nor CP needed the added range of the -62 over the -63. As it stood, the -63 could fly both AC's and CP's longest routes with ease.
(The -43, -53 and 54JT were 315,000 lbs MTOW)
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3291 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 12): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
CP used the DC-8-43 on YVR-AMS and YVR-HND starting in 1961.
Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!
Quoting longhauler (Reply 14): As it stood, the -63 could fly both AC's and CP's longest routes with ease.
Westbound fuel stops at ANC weren't unknown on YVR-HND. My first CP DC-8-63 flight on that sector stopped at ANC, as did my first 747-200 which replaced the -63 on YVR-HND-HKG in 1973. Eastbound was almost always nonstop, even on the -43. I recall a couple of speed records set HND-YVR using -43s when winds were very strong, around 7 hours if memory correct.
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (9 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3187 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 12): Yes, I recall you mentioning this before, and as "you were there" I have no reason to think it is inaccurate. But ... looking at the performance charts, I have no idea how CP did it!
Weren''t DC-8 s operated CP slightly different than AC's by having a slightly increased chord near the wing root, allowing to fly slightly longer routes ? Grant McConachie had them advertised as Super DC-8s,, II9RC.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 18, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3081 times:
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17): Weren''t DC-8 s operated CP slightly different than AC's by having a slightly increased chord near the wing root, allowing to fly slightly longer routes ?
In all of the DC-8 books I have, (far too many), I can find no reference to that.
Perhaps what you are thinking of is that when the initial airframes came off the line (Trans-Canada's first batch of DC-8s included), they didn't quite meet performance guarantees. To solve this, wing slots were added, and wing tips were extended.
Trans-Canada's were eventually modified. CP's however, being the 124th+ airframes built, would already have had that modification completed at the factory.
Also, TC's first DC-8s were DC-8-41s which were modified to DC-8-42s, the rest were delivered as DC-8-43s. All of CP's DC-8-40s were -43s right from the factory. Apart from being 5000 lbs heavier, the -43 had a different flap linkage that improved performance as well. But the performance comparison I was making above were AC's DC-8-43s to CP's DC-8-43.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
timz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6466 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3050 times:
I don't know of any book that lists which DC-8s got the 4%-longer-chord wing. (Far as I know it's the same 4% all along the wing, not just near the root.)
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2305 posts, RR: 7 Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3039 times:
Quoting bobloblaw (Reply 9): Air Canada did have D8S in 1971 cuz one crashed in YYZ in July 1970.
AC had DC8s much later than that. In fact Air Canada had the distinction of being the last original owner of DC-8s, into the mid-1990s. They flew DC-8-73Fs that had been converted from their -63s IIRC.
When AC started the SFO-YYC and YEG routes in the mid-1970s it was usually a 727 and I think I recall seeing DC-9s occasionally too. However, quite surprisingly I remember seeing DC-8-61s or -63s on occasion also.
yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 15989 posts, RR: 59 Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3016 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 18): Also, TC's first DC-8s were DC-8-41s which were modified to DC-8-42s, the rest were delivered as DC-8-43s. All of CP's DC-8-40s were -43s right from the factory. Apart from being 5000 lbs heavier, the -43 had a different flap linkage that improved performance as well. But the performance comparison I was making above were AC's DC-8-43s to CP's DC-8-43.
How did the operational performance of the -43 compare to the -53/54?
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 22, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3013 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20): AC had DC8s much later than that. In fact Air Canada had the distinction of being the last original owner of DC-8s, into the mid-1990s. They flew DC-8-73Fs that had been converted from their -63s IIRC.
That is correct, the last DC-8 left the fleet in 1994. The DC-8-73Fs.
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20): When AC started the SFO-YYC and YEG routes in the mid-1970s it was usually a 727 and I think I recall seeing DC-9s occasionally too. However, quite surprisingly I remember seeing DC-8-61s or -63s on occasion also.
Actually it was the other way around. The YEG-YYC-SFO-YYC-YEG route started as a DC-9, late in 1974. At that time, the then brand new all Y class B727s were exclusively used on Rapidairs. YYZ-YUL, YYZ-YOW. It was later that decade that the F/Y B727s started flying the YEG-SFO and YYC-SFO flights.
You may have seen a DC-8 in SFO, possibly an equipment substitution, for those routes, or the new YYZ-SFO route, which began as an L1011, then evolved to DC-8s then B727s.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2994 times:
Quoting yyz717 (Reply 21): How did the operational performance of the -43 compare to the -53/54?
The biggest gain was due to reduced fuel burn of the JT3Ds of the -53/54 over the RCo12s of the -43. Empty weight was about the same, and MTOW was exactly the same at 315,000 lbs.
I also see looking at the books, that the runway required for take-off was better for the -53/54s, but requirements for landing were less on the -43! Probably a function of effectiveness of the reverse thrust of the ejector/clam shells of the -43 over the cascades of the -53/54. (But I honestly don't know why ... it was only a marginal landing difference).
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 25, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3076 times:
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 23): Any info for AC DC-8's out of YHZ in 1970s?
YHZ was a big DC-8 operational base for AC. All series -43/53/54/61/63.
Domestically, they flew to YYT, YQX, YUL and YYZ, several flights a day.
Internationally, there was a daily flight to LHR, with stops en-route at YQX or PIK depending on the day of week. I think it wasn't until the 1980s that YYT replaced YQX on the YHZ-LHR flight.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1360 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3048 times:
Quoting bmacleod (Reply 23): Any info for AC DC-8's out of YHZ in 1970s?
I flew short bodied DC-8s from YUL-YHZ in 1976 and D8S from YYZ-YHZ and back in the early 1980s. The YYZ flights set up the LHR flights which stopped in YYT or PIK.
In 1980 during the oil boom in Alberta, AC flew a D8S from YYT-YHZ-YYC-YVR like 3-4x per week. It only lasted one summer.
pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 29, posted (9 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3037 times:
I remember a DC8 - 63 Super Stretch being sustituted on the YYZ to YVR or YEG sometime after 73 but before 75. My Mom hated flying them and was a nervous flyer to start with. The flexing of the fuselage, wings and rattling of the overheads gave her the fits. She called them the flying hot dog. As a kid I loved the roar of the engines. The windows were great to look down on the mountains.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 30, posted (9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2859 times:
Quoting timz (Reply 19): I don't know of any book that lists which DC-8s got the 4%-longer-chord wing. (Far as I know it's the same 4% all along the wing, not just near the root.)
Quoting longhauler (Reply 18): Quoting connies4ever (Reply 17):
Weren''t DC-8 s operated CP slightly different than AC's by having a slightly increased chord near the wing root, allowing to fly slightly longer routes ?
In all of the DC-8 books I have, (far too many), I can find no reference to that.
Perhaps what you are thinking of is that when the initial airframes came off the line (Trans-Canada's first batch of DC-8s included), they didn't quite meet performance guarantees. To solve this, wing slots were added, and wing tips were extended.
Trans-Canada's were eventually modified. CP's however, being the 124th+ airframes built, would already have had that modification completed at the factory.
The wing chord extension modification is described in many DC-8 sources. Excerpt below from the book "Douglas DC-8", Great Airliners Series Volume Two, by Terry Waddington, published 1996:
In September 1960, it was announced that a modified leading edge, with a sharper nose and a 4 percent chord increase from root to tip, was being developed to reduce drag in high Mach conditions. In addition, the leading edge slots were lengthened. The wing area increased from 2,773 to 2,868 square feet, allowing additional fuel cells in the new leading edge. The drag had been generated because the airfoil's blunt noise caused significant shock waves to appear at cruise conditions.
Testing confirmed a range increase of 8 percent, a speed increase of 0.02 Mach, and 7,000 pounds of additional payload. The revised leading edge was offered as a retrofit for any of the aircraft already built, and became standard from line number 148 onward. All series 40s and 50s were approved to fly with the new leading edge on October 10, 1961. In addition, the DC-8-21 was re-certified on July 27, 1962 with the 4 percent leading edge addition, which allowed upgrading of some earlier models to DC-8-50 series standards. The price of the retrofit was less than $200,000 per aircraft.
By the way, $200,000 in 1962 is equivalent to roughly $1.5 million today.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 31, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2833 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30): The wing chord extension modification is described in many DC-8 sources. Excerpt below from the book "Douglas DC-8", Great Airliners Series Volume Two, by Terry Waddington, published 1996:
Yes, I found that one.
But, what I was not clear on, was that I could find no reference that CP's DC-8's wings were any different than TCA's DC-8 wings after the mods were completed.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2305 posts, RR: 7 Reply 32, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Since we expanded this threat to discuss the Canadian DC-8s, I'm sure someone can tell me the special significance of one certain Canadian Airlines (later CP Air) DC-8, right? This should be an easy one.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 33, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2840 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 32): Since we expanded this threat to discuss the Canadian DC-8s, I'm sure someone can tell me the special significance of one certain Canadian Airlines (later CP Air) DC-8, right? This should be an easy one.
And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 34, posted (9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2829 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 31): But, what I was not clear on, was that I could find no reference that CP's DC-8's wings were any different than TCA's DC-8 wings after the mods were completed.
Yes, after the modifications there were no differences.
Quoting longhauler (Reply 33): Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 32):
Since we expanded this threat to discuss the Canadian DC-8s, I'm sure someone can tell me the special significance of one certain Canadian Airlines (later CP Air) DC-8, right? This should be an easy one.
And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
BoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 2305 posts, RR: 7 Reply 35, posted (9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2807 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 33): And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
Yeah, that's what I understand too. I think AM flew the airplane for quite awhile IIRC. I have all the Great Airliners Series books, including the DC-8 one, which discusses it. (Best aviation books I've ever seen too).
Cool article, thanks. I can't speak for my company, but yeah I'd not expect them to try something like that. I wonder how a 787 or 777-300ER (the latter being the best airplane ever build IMHO, with the possible exception of the 707) would respond to such a maneuver.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 36, posted (9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 2802 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30): The wing chord extension modification is described in many DC-8 sources. Excerpt below from the book "Douglas DC-8", Great Airliners Series Volume Two, by Terry Waddington, published 1996:
Also interesting about that book ... it contains the only "known" picture of CF-TIW. (there is the infamous, taken from a cab photo, but has anyone ever seen it?)
[Edited 2012-08-17 18:10:35]
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
aircellist From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 1419 posts, RR: 9 Reply 37, posted (9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 33): Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 32):
Since we expanded this threat to discuss the Canadian DC-8s, I'm sure someone can tell me the special significance of one certain Canadian Airlines (later CP Air) DC-8, right? This should be an easy one.
And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 38, posted (9 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
One other "'short 8" route that operated for a while at that time was YVR-YWG-JFK. Later became a DC-9 service, later still abandoned. I guess it was cannibalising feed through YYZ.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 40, posted (9 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2556 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 35): Quoting longhauler (Reply 33):
And to the day it was retired, that plaque was posted on the aircraft!
Yeah, that's what I understand too. I think AM flew the airplane for quite awhile IIRC. I have all the Great Airliners Series books, including the DC-8 one, which discusses it. (Best aviation books I've ever seen too).
I think you're referring to the very first DC-8, "Ship One", that was operated by Aeromexico before it was retired. It was also operated by several other carriers including DL. CP also leased it for a year in 1966-67 before it went to DL for about a decade. That was a DC-8-51 (converted by Douglas from the original DC-8-11 before it was refurbished and sold.)
The discussion above and the CP Air DC-8 photos were referring to the "Supersonic DC-8-43" CF-CPG which had no other operators than CP. It was retired and sold in early 1980 and was flown go Opa Locka, Florida. It never flew again and was scrapped in 1981. Photo at OPF below.
All the way from one side of the nation to the other! I was surprised to see Stretch 8 service into Victoria as well as St John's.
Not only was it interesting to see DC-8s in YYJ, but the YYJ-YVR flight is incredibly short. What did they get to about 5000 feet? It's like doing SJC-SFO, but without a direct freeway since there is a water and ferry crossing between them.
I've seen AC Jazz Dash-8s on the YYJ-YVR flight and they are barely up and down over the Gulf Islands, so that must have been spectacular with a DC-8-61,
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 42, posted (9 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 41): I've seen AC Jazz Dash-8s on the YYJ-YVR flight and they are barely up and down over the Gulf Islands, so that must have been spectacular with a DC-8-61,
I've flown YVR-YYJ many times on AC (DC-3, North Star, and Viscount) and also on Air BC (Dash-7). Interestingly, the Dash was the fastest in terms of block to block time. Usually it was 12 or 13 minutes, and most often we landed at YVR on a taxistrip and proceeded direct to the southside terminal. The jets need to do a fair bit of manouevring in order to set up a proper ILS approach unless a short final in authorised.
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 43, posted (9 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2403 times:
YVR-YYJ is great fun. I have flown it in a B737, A320 and recently in a B767-300.
The flying time really depends on the runways used. If you take off 09 in YYJ and land on 08 in YVR flying time can be as short as 10 minutes! Everyone is following the same SID/STAR and doing the same speed, aircraft type doesn't really affect flying time.
Without the strict noise abatement rules, and without the SID/STAR combo ... it was probably a lot more fun in the DHC-7 and DC-8 days!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
connies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 3857 posts, RR: 13 Reply 44, posted (9 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2372 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 43): Without the strict noise abatement rules, and without the SID/STAR combo ... it was probably a lot more fun in the DHC-7 and DC-8 days!
Dad flew as FE in Cats/Cansos during the last great unpleasantness and his comment on the aircraft's performance was: "Took off at 60, climbed at 60, cruised at 60, landed at 60". Dash-7 is actually similar: takes off about 80, climbs at 80, goes crazy and cruises around 120, descends at 80, lands at 80". It is a really a slowliner. Was originally intended as a twin but PWC couldn't deliver the PW150 in time, so it was 4 PT6s instead (most succesful turbine engine ever, Canadians take note).
The Dash-7 for the "old" AirBC was a real gamble, almost but not quite bet the company. My brother at the time was YYJ station manager. When the first bird was delivered the company held a now legendary "Dash Bash" on the (I believe) old PWA hangar on the south side. Most were sent home in taxis for their own safety.
Rockinflyer From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 232 posts, RR: 0 Reply 45, posted (9 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2252 times:
Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 2):
When did CP start service to South America? I believe the DC8s were used on those routes as well. YVR-LIM, and others.
They had service to Lima, Santiago, and Buenos Aires. Sort of a triangle down there at the time. I can't remember any other South American cities CP flew into, but definitely those 3 for quite a while. I think a stop in MEX was also in the routing. Gosh this is going way back!
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 47, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1899 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15): Quoting longhauler (Reply 14):
As it stood, the -63 could fly both AC's and CP's longest routes with ease.
Westbound fuel stops at ANC weren't unknown on YVR-HND. My first CP DC-8-63 flight on that sector stopped at ANC, as did my first 747-200 which replaced the -63 on YVR-HND-HKG in 1973. Eastbound was almost always nonstop, even on the -43. I recall a couple of speed records set HND-YVR using -43s when winds were very strong, around 7 hours if memory correct.
This caught my eye, as I was discussing DC-8 performance with a friend of mine recently. It would appear that DC-8 flight planning differed a great deal between AC and CP:
LHR-YVR is about 100 miles greater than YVR-HND. Looking in the books, when operating a DC-8-63, AC had no problem flying LHR-YVR with a full load, a lot of freight and a YYC alternate ... and still have open weight. So I am surprised CP had troubles flying non-stop YVR-HND with a DC-8-63.
And yet, ZRH-AC could get out of a DC-8-43. And CP could fly a DC-8-43 about 700 miles further, AMS-YVR!
[Edited 2012-08-25 21:05:56]
[Edited 2012-08-25 21:06:35]
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
maxpower1954 From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 854 posts, RR: 5 Reply 48, posted (8 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1874 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 47): LHR-YVR is about 100 miles greater than YVR-HND. Looking in the books, when operating a DC-8-63, AC had no problem flying LHR-YVR with a full load, a lot of freight and a YYC alternate ... and still have open weight. So I am surprised CP had troubles flying non-stop YVR-HND with a DC-8-63.
I used to fly Arrow Air DC-8-62s (ex-UA) from LGW to SFO non-stop with a 336,000 MTOW. It's been almost 30 years, but I remember the jetstream was seldom that far north, especially in the winter. Across the Pacific from the West Coast was a different matter, as you well know!
Longhauler, do you have any info on the AC DC-8 cockpit configuration, at least on the earlier airplanes? We had a -55 from AC that I flew a few times, setup basically where two pilots could have flown it without an F/E. What's the story?
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 49, posted (8 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1758 times:
Quoting maxpower1954 (Reply 48): Longhauler, do you have any info on the AC DC-8 cockpit configuration, at least on the earlier airplanes? We had a -55 from AC that I flew a few times, setup basically where two pilots could have flown it without an F/E. What's the story?
Actually all of Air Canada / Trans-Canada Air Lines DC-8s had unique cockpits that were unlike any other on earth!
And what you say is accurate, they were originally designed to be flown by two pilots, without the S/O F/E position. The F/O's seat rails were to be long enough to go abeam the F/E panel, and he could adjust what was required there. And, a lot of the controls and indicators were placed at the bottom of the F/O or CA panels.
The Department of Transport stepped in during this process, and although Douglas was quite willing to make the design changes, the DOT would not allow it. I am not sure if this decision was made after cockpit construction started, or if TCA thought DOT would change their minds ... but on delivery, a three man cockpit prevailed, but a lot the "two man" cockpit changes remained. Then to maintain fleet commonality, every TCA/AC DC-8 cockpit was the same, right through to the final -63 built for them.
This caused a lot of future problems. One being that it became difficult to sell the aircraft to other DC-8 operators as the cockpit was quite different. And, the DOT would not allow any other airline (CP for example) from using the AC DC-8 simulators for anything other than recurrent training. CP did have a DC-8 simulator in YVR, but all the CP YYZ pilots had to fly to YVR for initial training instead of using AC's simulators.
TCA also did this with Vanguards ... but they actually flew as two-man cockpits, very different from BEA's three man Vanguards. Again, sale of the aircraft was difficult to an already Vanguard operator!
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
All the way from one side of the nation to the other! I was surprised to see Stretch 8 service into Victoria as well as St John's.
Wow, stretch-8 on Victoria-Vancouver and Ottawa-Montreal, the tail would still be over the departure runway as the nose would be starting final approach at the destination
Just kidding of course, but that must have been one uneconomical operation. I guess fuel was dirt cheap then.
I only flew DC-8s twice in my life, a CP 63 from YOW-YVR (sitting in the very back of the very l-o-n-g bus), and a 50 series with the original Palomar seats on the return, in Dec. 82. Scored a cockpit visit on the 63 over the moonlit Rockies, quite spectacular.
I knew a CP DC-10 captain who had been a DC-8 captain prior; said the DC-10 was a pleasure to fly, while the DC-8 was a truck, you could go on a month's leave and go right back on the 10 as if you flew it yesterday but the 8, especially the stretch, felt like you were learning to fly all over again.
pnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2046 posts, RR: 12 Reply 52, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1440 times:
Quoting beechnut (Reply 51): I knew a CP DC-10 captain who had been a DC-8 captain prior; said the DC-10 was a pleasure to fly, while the DC-8 was a truck, you could go on a month's leave and go right back on the 10 as if you flew it yesterday but the 8, especially the stretch, felt like you were learning to fly all over again.
I remember visiting a family friend who was a DC8 then a DC10 pilot for CP out of Vancouver. His comment on the DC8 was that you knew you were flying. He said flying the DC10 was a few minutes of fun, and then like sitting in your bathroom for 6 to 8 hours staring at the wall.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, RR: 24 Reply 53, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
Quoting beechnut (Reply 51): I only flew DC-8s twice in my life, a CP 63 from YOW-YVR (sitting in the very back of the very l-o-n-g bus), and a 50 series with the original Palomar seats on the return, in Dec. 82. Scored a cockpit visit on the 63 over the moonlit Rockies, quite spectacular.
Was the December '82 flight on CP? If so it couldn't have been a -50 series. Apart from a -55F combi that was sold in 1978 to a British cargo operator and converted to a freighter, CP only had one other -50 series, a -53 that I show was sold in June 1982. (CP also leased the original DC-8 prototype for a year on 1966-67 which by then had been converted to a -51). The CP -43s were retired in 1980-81 so by December 1982 the only CP DC-8s left were the 5 -63s and they were gone by mid-1983.
I don't believe AC had any -50 series DC-8s in passenger service as late as December 1982 either but I'm not positive. In any case, I'm almost certain AC's 3 DC-8-53s were late production aircraft and never had the Palomar seats (I think they had the same seats as AC's -61s).
CP had also replaced the Palomar seats on their early DC-8s in the mid-1970s when new interiors were installed, including new seats, closed overhead bins replacing the original open coat racks, and an audio-only IFE system. The new interiors and IFE system were also installed on the -63s (no -60-series DC-8s had the Palomar seats).
beechnut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 708 posts, RR: 9 Reply 54, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1351 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53): Was the December '82 flight on CP? If so it couldn't have been a -50 series. Apart from a -55F combi that was sold in 1978 to a British cargo operator and converted to a freighter, CP only had one other -50 series, a -53 that I show was sold in June 1982. (CP also leased the original DC-8 prototype for a year on 1966-67 which by then had been converted to a -51). The CP -43s were retired in 1980-81 so by December 1982 the only CP DC-8s left were the 5 -63s and they were gone by mid-1983.
I may be mistaken on the dates, I think it might have been December 81 when I flew out and Jan. 82 when I flew home. but it definitely was a short-bodied 8, with Palomar seats which the 63 didn't have, and definitely CP because it was their "Skybus" fare which was dirt cheap (no meal service, back of the bus... etc), at least at the time. It was a long time ago. I was going to visit my girlfriend at the time. Well, at the time she was my girlfriend, now she's my wife
longhauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, RR: 36 Reply 56, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1248 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53): I don't believe AC had any -50 series DC-8s in passenger service as late as December 1982 either but I'm not positive. In any case, I'm almost certain AC's 3 DC-8-53s were late production aircraft and never had the Palomar seats (I think they had the same seats as AC's -61s).
You are correct, the last two -53s were retired from passenger service after the winter 79/80 season, and there were no short-8s carrying passengers at AC after they were retired. (The -54JTs continued for a few more years, but had been converted to all cargo by the mid-1970s) And yes, the three -53s were delivered from the factory with a "non-Palomar" interior that was identical to the -61/-63s. As far as I know, they were the only short-8s built with a "non-Palomar" interior.
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53): CP had also replaced the Palomar seats on their early DC-8s in the mid-1970s when new interiors were installed, including new seats, closed overhead bins replacing the original open coat racks, and an audio-only IFE system. The new interiors and IFE system were also installed on the -63s (no -60-series DC-8s had the Palomar seats).
The -61s and -63s continued carrying passengers into the early 1980s. But only the -63s had a new interior installed, with a 'wide-body' look, with new seats, enclosed overhead bins and IFE with both movies and audio. 2 were in an F/Y configuration 10F 195Y, and 4 were all Y with 226 seats used on Rapidairs. Those all Y aircraft flew the last AC passenger DC-8 operation.
Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
Tomassjc From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 657 posts, RR: 1 Reply 57, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1227 times:
Quoting longhauler (Reply 56): The -61s and -63s continued carrying passengers into the early 1980s. But only the -63s had a new interior installed, with a 'wide-body' look, with new seats, enclosed overhead bins and IFE with both movies and audio. 2 were in an F/Y configuration 10F 195Y, and 4 were all Y with 226 seats used on Rapidairs. Those all Y aircraft flew the last AC passenger DC-8 operation.
Interesting to know!
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 53): CP had also replaced the Palomar seats on their early DC-8s in the mid-1970s when new interiors were installed, including new seats, closed overhead bins replacing the original open coat racks, and an audio-only IFE system. The new interiors and IFE system were also installed on the -63s (no -60-series DC-8s had the Palomar seats
I do remember flying a CP DC-8-43 SFO-YVR in early 81 and I seem to recall open racks but newer style seats. But then again, it's a 30 year old memory and I was enjoying some fine Empress service in First Class, so it all became a blur!
Tomas SJC
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth with your eyes turned skyward -Leonardo DaVinci
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3725 posts, 
From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 4276 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 2374 posts, 
From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21465 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
