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Rumor: DL 763A's Beginning Retirement?  
User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7718 times:

I have posted this before, but have been shot down...based on DL flight schedules, this seems to becoming a reality...

LAX-HNL 763A is turning into a 76ER
ATL-SLC-HNL 763A is turning into a 76ER
763As are disappearing from SAN, SJU, SEA

Look @ 12/7/12 as a date...there are 16 aircraft in the fleet. Here's what I can find in the schedule...this can be done with 3 aircraft.
ATL-LAX 1 r/t
ATL-SFO 1 r/t
DTW-LAX 2 r/t
MSP-LAX 1 r/t

In January, more go away..this can be done with 2 aircraft.
Look @ 1/11/13
ATL-LAX 1 r/t
DTW-LAX 1 r/t
MSP-LAX 1 r/t

SFO, SEA, SLC all seeing 76ERs from ATL.

Can someone with more DL insight give some confirmation?

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDL787932ER From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7291 times:

I have no special insight, but I was on a 763A yesterday from SAN-ATL. I didn't see any reason it would be ready for retirement; it was in great shape and had PTVs throughout and the new economy comfort section.


F L Y D E L T A J E T S
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20640 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7263 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
based on DL flight schedules, this seems to becoming a reality

This is August, and DL often loads equipment changes much closer to actual flight dates. December and January are relatively a fair distance out. What is the utilization for the 16 763As in the current schedule for comparison?



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
Look @ 12/7/12 as a date...there are 16 aircraft in the fleet. Here's what I can find in the schedule...this can be done with 3 aircraft.
ATL-LAX 1 r/t
ATL-SFO 1 r/t
DTW-LAX 2 r/t
MSP-LAX 1 r/t

You're not looking at the schedule enough.

On 12/7, there are 16 scheduled 767-300A flights:
ATL-LAS (1)
ATL-LAX (1)
ATL-SFO (1)
ATL-SLC (1)
DTW-LAX (2)
LAS-ATL (1)
LAX-ATL (3)
LAX-DTW (2)
MSP-LAX (1)
SEA-ATL (1)
SFO-ATL (1)
SLC-ATL (1)

December 7 is also a Friday, which happens to be a very busy day for NFL team charter movement. Delta has a lot of these charters and a lot of teams use the 767-300A.


User currently offlinedlflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 7055 times:

I'm happy last time i flew a 767ER it was back when DL were flying them from LAX-JFK years ago...Also will be able to load a lot more cargo/mail on those ER's than the current 767etops aircraft for the flights to HNL...

User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 3):
You're not looking at the schedule enough.

I am...I am getting this from the latest version of the DL electronic schedule, downloaded this am.

Forget December...look at January. There are nearly zero 763A flights loaded...most days this spring/summer has had 5x/day 76A on ATL-LAX, 2-3 on ATL-SFO, 3-4 on ATL-SLC.

There is nothing there in January...would be suprised if they were using 757 as a dummy load across the board...something is up.

This Thursday:
ATL-LAX 4X
ATL-SFO 2X
ATL-SLC 2X
ATL-SJU
ATL-LAS
LAX-HNL
LAX-DTW 2X
LAX-MSP


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10432 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
This is August, and DL often loads equipment changes much closer to actual flight dates.

Don't know if it's still the same, but when I was working, DL, traditionally, would load schedule changes, 45 days out and not before.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Reply 5):
would be suprised if they were using 757 as a dummy load across the board

I wouldn't... equipment is often not final until shortly before the schedule starts.

The 763As will be replaced by 739ERs, which will happen gradually over the next few years.


User currently offlineDeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8902 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Reply 5):
I am...I am getting this from the latest version of the DL electronic schedule, downloaded this am.

Forget December...look at January. There are nearly zero 763A flights loaded...most days this spring/summer has had 5x/day 76A on ATL-LAX, 2-3 on ATL-SFO, 3-4 on ATL-SLC.

Well you might want to check again.

I have looked on the Delta downloadable timetable (updated this morning), the OAG and a GDS.

On Friday 11Jan13, there are 14 767-300A flights. ATLLAS (2), ATLLAX (1), ATLSLC (1), DTWLAX (1), LASATL (2), LAXATL (3), LAXDTW (1), LAXMSP (1), MSPLAX (1), SLCATL (1).

Also, again it's the first weekend of the NFL Playoffs - expect some of these planes to be flying charters that day as well.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

For the second time..they aren't going anywhere.

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
ATL-SLC-HNL 763A is turning into a 76ER

Reverts back to a 76Q on 12/15...

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
ATL-LAX 1 r/t

-HOWVER, LAX-ATL on the same day is 3x 76Qs... DL 1754/1454/1254
-On 12/15 (DL's next big schedule change) LAX-ATL goes to 4x 76Qs... DL 1765/1654/1354/1254

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
763As are disappearing from SAN, SJU, SEA

Ok...SEA: SEA-ATL 1x 76Q on 12/7 DL 1962. On 12/15 the 76Q moves to DL 968.

MSP-LAX only gets one way 76Q service (like SEA-ATL).

You are looking into these changes a bit too hard..domestic 767 capacity on the DL side is very cyclic and goes through this every year. SAN always drops to all 757 service from ATL during some point in the year. SJU almost always goes to all 757s; sometimes only 3x daily on certain days.

By looking at how they're doing the route pairings for the a/c, they are parking a few for the winter season and because of the lower frame count, creative routing will be required to make the schedule work so the "out and backs" that we're so use to isn't happening. That's why you see them going in one direction in some cases (none ATL-SEA but SEA-ATL; more coming from LAX-ATL than ATL-LAX; none at all on LAX-MSP but one departing MSP, etc.)

Coupled with the fact that the TATL schedule takes a huge blow during the winter, there are more ERs than DL know what to do with and thus they're a little more flexible with putting them on domestic turns where they'd idle anyway. Some, especially out of ATL would sit for up to 3 days between flights. The Delta North ramp is usually a parking lot for widebodies in the winter.

Some of us have very short memories. This summer's schedule was not even finalized until a little over a month out. I recall a thread some time back where we were trying to figure out where the domestic 767s would be for the summer and it was correct for the most part but looking back, the frequencies were wrong because DL added some at the very last minute.

Some will say how is this possible ("not even finalized until a little over a month out"). Domestic sales usually spike and finalize 2-3 weeks before departure date. It's about a 20 day window. Here's an example. For 8/27, DTW-LAX is sitting at about 40% booked for the 6 departures. DTW-LAX on a Monday?? Please. By the 22nd, I guarantee you that it'll be at least 80% if not scraping 90 as it always is every single Monday. My point is that close-in schedule updates is not uncommon because it really doesn't affect bookings that much.

[Edited 2012-08-13 13:04:17]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6630 times:

After all these replies, it seems the schedule is just not final...

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
ATL-SLC-HNL 763A is turning into a 76ER

Reverts back to a 76Q on 12/15...

Actually, I think the schedule is just jacked up. ATL-SLC still shows as a 76ER, with SLC-HNL showing 76A. They aren't going to leave a ER in SLC on the ground for 22 hours.

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):
ATL-LAX 1 r/t

-HOWVER, LAX-ATL on the same day is 3x 76Qs... DL 1754/1454/1254
-On 12/15 (DL's next big schedule change) LAX-ATL goes to 4x 76Qs... DL 1765/1654/1354/1254

Yup, same thing the day before and after. You can't run a 3 ship out of balance for a week straight. Schedule just must be wrong one direction or the other.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 8):
Ok...SEA: SEA-ATL 1x 76Q on 12/7 DL 1962. On 12/15 the 76Q moves to DL 968.

MSP-LAX only gets one way 76Q service (like SEA-ATL).

Where are the birds coming from?

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
Coupled with the fact that the TATL schedule takes a huge blow during the winter, there are more ERs than DL know what to do with and thus they're a little more flexible with putting them on domestic turns where they'd idle anyway. Some, especially out of ATL would sit for up to 3 days between flights. The Delta North ramp is usually a parking lot for widebodies in the winter.

This, I think you are very right with...pulldown seems larger than usual this winter.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
Some will say how is this possible ("not even finalized until a little over a month out"). Domestic sales usually spike and finalize 2-3 weeks before departure date. It's about a 20 day window. Here's an example. For 8/27, DTW-LAX is sitting at about 40% booked for the 6 departures. DTW-LAX on a Monday?? Please. By the 22nd, I guarantee you that it'll be at least 80% if not scraping 90 as it always is every single Monday. My point is that close-in schedule updates is not uncommon because it really doesn't affect bookings that much.

It is amazing to see how across-the-board, bookings are much more close-in than they used to be. Airlines used to have a better picture 4-6 weeks, out but like you said, 50% of flights are booked less than 21 days to departure. That number is obviously much higher on business-heavy routes, and much lower on leisure-heavy routes. It drives planners crazy since you really have to rely on your forecast by the time schedules, routes, and operations have to be set.

DL is still tweaking the October schedule. Generally they try to get everything set in te 45-60 day window.


User currently offlinenwa757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6393 times:

The slack in the 76A schedule also provides flexibility in the schedule. I have worked the last ATL-JFK flight many times and a handful of times it is upgauged from a 757 to a 76Q The pilot base is the just about one in the same. There is a 767 pilot base, can fly domestic 75/76 trips but not international 767s trips then there is the ER pilot group than can fly it all. So staffing wise it's not an issue to swap from a 75 to a 76, just throw on two more trolly dollys and call it day!

I personally love working the767Q/P Twin aisle domestic, a rarity these days!


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Reply 10):
Actually, I think the schedule is just jacked up. ATL-SLC still shows as a 76ER, with SLC-HNL showing 76A. They aren't going to leave a ER in SLC on the ground for 22 hours.

It's not, trust me. Everything lines up if you have access to the full schedule and on what days the ship goes where. On 11/4 DL 1105 goes to an ER. It will also be the first full 7 day period that SLC-CDG is not daily (drops on 10/28). When it's daily, the ER for SLC-CDG is funded via CDG (CDG-SLC-CDG-XXX).

It's actually a bit complicated don't look at it as a "SLC thing" but a 767 thing. Because of the winter schedule, they'll have less frames to work with so the routing will have to change with this particular schedule change i'm talking about.

You have to look at the big picture.

10/28
LAX-HNL reverts to a 76ER. On the same day, HNL-NGO is downgraded to a 76ER from a 333. On the 27th, there will be an "extra 333 which comes from NGO but won't return. Well by golly on the 27th HNL-NRT downgrades from 2x 744 to 1x744 and 1x333. The change in a/c on all these days are to facilitate a/c changes in the schedule. So, the way they routed SLC-CDG will be different. On 11/4 it'll do ATL-SLC-HNL-SLC-ATL. What's wholly possible and I can't tell this far out, is that there will be ship changes in HNL (LAX-HNL-FUK/FUK-HNL-SLC). The schedule is very complicated during the winter.

Quoting FlyAA757 (Reply 10):
Where are the birds coming from?

Our a/c routing is very complicated (well, not really). MSP-LAX-MSP is almost never on the same a/c so it's coming from SEA. Today the 76Q does MSP-LAX-ATL.

It's not showing in the schedule but it will come from ATL on DL 888 on certain days. I'm not sure where on other days but most likely LAX on one of the turns. They did this for a while last year in the winter. The a/c wouldn't show until 3 days out. ATL-MSP DL 2034 and 300 had alternating 332 service for quite a while as well, to fund DL 258 to Amsterdam.

And to answer this

Quoting FlyAA757 (Thread starter):

SFO, SEA, SLC all seeing 76ERs from ATL.

ATL-SFO-NRT, ATL-SEA-KIX (the second ER @ night is in fact a turn) and SLC continues to HNL then to either FUK or NGO with the inbound a/c from NGO/FUK sitting and continuing to SLC in the late evening.

[Edited 2012-08-13 16:20:29]


What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6215 times:

Quoting nwa757boy (Reply 12):
The slack in the 76A schedule also provides flexibility in the schedule. I have worked the last ATL-JFK flight many times and a handful of times it is upgauged from a 757 to a 76Q

Usage is WAAAY down, even with the active frames and the current summer schedule. Many times, one frame will just to an ATL-LAX rt and be done. Or something like LAS-ATL-LAX-MSP and be done (that a/c will depart the next morning at 9). Or MSP-LAX-ATL which is exactly what the one ship is doing today. They can easily sneak in some turns to BOS/LGA/MCO/FLL/TPA/PHX if they wanted to but they dont.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineFlyAA757 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1012 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5956 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 13):

Just checked the timings - SLCHNL arrives into HNL too late to do anything but turn back around to SLC.

All 3 other departures(LAX/NGO/FUK) leave before the inbound arrives. Same goes for the occasional ER to NRT.


User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5880 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 7):
The 763As will be replaced by 739ERs, which will happen gradually over the next few years.

The direct 767A replacement will be the 757-300 aircraft which are planned for a cabin upgrade and winglets before being moved into that role. The 737-900ER will provide the additional capacity to free up the 757-300 to make that move. We will see this start happening in the 2014-2015 time frame.


User currently offlinenwa757boy From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 676 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days ago) and read 5808 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 16):
Quoting B757forever (Reply 16):

The direct 767A replacement will be the 757-300 aircraft which are planned for a cabin upgrade and winglets before being moved into that role


Rumor I heard is the removal of the galley at 2R to add more seats. Any truth to that?


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5708 times:

Quoting FlyAA757 (Reply 15):
Just checked the timings - SLCHNL arrives into HNL too late to do anything but turn back around to SLC.

All 3 other departures(LAX/NGO/FUK) leave before the inbound arrives. Same goes for the occasional ER to NRT.

You're right. All the talk of SLC and LAX got me confused..apply what I said to LAX HNL which is what I meant. The ER arrives in HNL at 1240 but the return departs HNL at 1310. There will be a ship swap on it. FUK-HNL-FUK is a turn but there's considerable ground time from the inbound a/c from NGO. I'm guessing it does something like NGO-HNL-LAX and the other a/c does LAX-HNL-NGO.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently online1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 6536 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 16):
The direct 767A replacement will be the 757-300 aircraft which are planned for a cabin upgrade and winglets before being moved into that role. The 737-900ER will provide the additional capacity to free up the 757-300 to make that move. We will see this start happening in the 2014-2015 time frame

So, is AVOD planned for the 753 fleet? Perhaps DL can reuse the existing seats and IFE from the 763A fleet and transplant them onto the 753s. This is similar to what was done with some of the 76As that were returned to the lessors, where their Y seats and IFE got transplanted onto the 76T fleet. Of course, the system would need to be reprogrammed to disable the ability to control the reading lights and FA call, since the 753 has overhead buttons.

[Edited 2012-08-13 20:12:57]


The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5467 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5467 times:

Quoting B757forever (Reply 16):
The direct 767A replacement will be the 757-300 aircraft which are planned for a cabin upgrade and winglets before being moved into that role.

I suspect this is only partly true. If they pull the 757-300s currently doing Hawaii off the Hawaii routes (or at least off enough of them so they are only replacing the four ETOPS 763As), they won't have a suitable replacement. The 739ER is range-challenged on many of those routes and there are not many extra ETOPS 752s, or any ETOPS 738s.

I think we are going to start seeing an awful lot of 753s to Hawaii, and 739ERs on the high-volume transcons...


User currently offlineBDL757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 152 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4602 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 14):
They can easily sneak in some turns to BOS/LGA/MCO/FLL/TPA/PHX if they wanted to but they dont.

I really wish they would sneak them into LGA more, we've had a couple of 767s come in, in the past few weeks but only to clean things up after a bad IROP day. They go to ATL but the other day one came in from and went to DTW.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9435 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 9):
Reverts back to a 76Q on 12/15...

shouldn't the HNL turn be a 76P?

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 20):
I suspect this is only partly true. If they pull the 757-300s currently doing Hawaii off the Hawaii routes (or at least off enough of them so they are only replacing the four ETOPS 763As), they won't have a suitable replacement. The 739ER is range-challenged on many of those routes and there are not many extra ETOPS 752s, or any ETOPS 738s.

I wouldn't expect the 4 ETOPS 76As to be parked anytime soon. They are only 10-14 years old.



yep.
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

One thing is certain in a 600+ plane fleet. You can not play favorites! a "D check" for a 76A may be worth more
than the hull of the aircraft. With such a diverse fleet, replacing the airplane may appear to be an up or downgauge
for many. Remember it is a revenue driven business..... that conversion of PTV and lights and seat mods cost $$.
The useful life on the frames may not be worth the Inve$tment....


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

What is the expected phase-out of the 763A, as in how much more life is left in those frames?
(We know they are not being phased-out this winter, is is a typical seasonal pull-down in many cases)

We know there are a batch of 757s that are expected to leave the fleet in 2013, as the 739ERs join the fleet, since some of the early-build 757s will be timing out. What about the 763A?

It would also appear that DL is trying to conserve cycles on the 763As to keep them around for another summer or two, instead burning the cycles on 757s that will time-out in the near future.


25 B757forever : Correct. Not only are they younger but they are PW4000 powered aircraft (common to roughly half the ER fleet) and the other much older 767A aircraft
26 FlyASAGuy2005 : Yeah, most certainly. I generally say 76Q for the domestic 767s. And the only ones that they actually own.
27 1337Delta764 : Actually, DL bought all the currently active 763As from the lessors.
28 FlyASAGuy2005 : News to me. Thanks
29 B757forever : It is my understanding they will get a fresh interior and a seat density mod to include the standard DL colors, slim-line seats and AVOD. The current
30 FlyASAGuy2005 : If they move forward with what was announced almost 2 years ago for the 57s, the front cabin should be able to increase to 28 and I guess Y will get
31 DeltaL1011man : I want to say that got nixed due to it being a pain and the fact that a good bit of the fleet that will stay around already have 26F. IMHO i would ex
32 FlyASAGuy2005 : As far as I know yes, they're 4060s. Software may be a bit different but exact same engine. Only real challenge being SLC-HNL. ATL-HNL will continue
33 srbmod : I'm flying ATL-LAS-ATL in October and had originally booked my flights based on the fact that they were on 763 Domestic a/c (It also helped that they
34 B757forever : If you are bored enough to read through the DL 10K for 2011, you will see the number of owned 767-300 aircraft increased from 4 to 10.
35 seabosdca : That was not CO/UA's experience. They tried to use 739ERs from LAX and repeatedly ran into restrictions and range issues. SFO is marginally shorter,
36 FlyAA757 : I expect 752s will be a staple to Hawaii for the next 15 years...the 75Vs will go, but will be replaced in kind.
37 FlyASAGuy2005 : All I can say is they're not getting the 739s ETOPS certified for nothing.
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