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CI A330 Taxing Problem After Landing  
User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 392 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4006 times:

Several days ago, a China Airlines A330 landed in a heavy rainy day at Taoyuan Airport, and had lost its steering due to hydraulic failure, resulting in loosing control with part of its wheels into the perimeter grass field while taxing? How often do aircraft looses its engine hydraulic power after landing? I suspect this is a cover up as the most likely reason should be a pilot error due to poor visibility while taxing/landing.

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3877 times:

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
How often do aircraft looses its engine hydraulic power after landing?

Very rarely. But, on most aircraft, the nosewheel steering is on the center system which has no direct engine source (center is usually driven by some combination of electric and pneumatic pumps). It's extremely unlikely that all hydraulics were lost, just the circuit powering the nosewheel steering.

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
I suspect this is a cover up as the most likely reason should be a pilot error due to poor visibility while taxing/landing.

It would be a terrible coverup; review of the maintenance messages or FDR would confirm or deny within a few hours.

Tom.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8840 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
But, on most aircraft, the nosewheel steering is on the center system which has no direct engine source (center is usually driven by some combination of electric and pneumatic pumps). It's extremely unlikely that all hydraulics were lost, just the circuit powering the nosewheel steering.

On the A330 the NWS is powered by the green hydraulics, with an EDP on each engine, even in the face of an engine failure, the green system remains powered.

I suspect it would have been an electrical command for the steering selector valve to close. This may have been from another fault, e.g. landing gear sensor failure after a heavy landing, or a checklist asked for it to be turned off. The OP does not have enough detail to pin it down.

I could have been a simple matter of pilot error., taking a corner too fast when wet, or not using over-steer.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days ago) and read 3403 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 2):
I suspect it would have been an electrical command for the steering selector valve to close. This may have been from another fault, e.g. landing gear sensor failure after a heavy landing, or a checklist asked for it to be turned off. The OP does not have enough detail to pin it down.

Hi Zeke, thanks for the input. What I find it interesting was the aircraft, if I read the brief new correctly, was able to recover itself back to the taxiway, all by itself. The news also stated that due to down pour of rain, the aircraft used up the whole 3000 ft of runway and turn off to the taxiway at the very end of the runway. All in all, it either suggest a temporary loss of steering control (like what Zeke is stating) or an error by the pilot, which is regretful but nevertheless should not be tolerated.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3058 times:

Quoting celestar (Reply 3):
What I find it interesting was the aircraft, if I read the brief new correctly, was able to recover itself back to the taxiway, all by itself.

Differential braking and thrust are beautiful things. I've seen a pilot do a 120-degree corner with no nosewheel steering.

Quoting celestar (Reply 3):
The news also stated that due to down pour of rain, the aircraft used up the whole 3000 ft of runway

Who's trying to land an A330 on a 3000' runway?!

Tom.


User currently offlinetrex8 From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 4593 posts, RR: 14
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2842 times:
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Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 4):
Who's trying to land an A330 on a 3000' runway?!

3000meters???


User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2472 times:

Sorry, it should be in meter, my mistake.
Taoyuan airport has two parallel runway, both are more than 3000 meter, between 3350m to 3660m.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8840 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2373 times:

Quoting celestar (Reply 3):

If the rain was very heavy, ATC could have evoked low visibility procedures, the only runway exit available is the very end in these circultnces. These are the sort of conditions SQ6 crashed in.

I think you should share this report, so we can read what it actually says.



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2355 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 1):
Very rarely. But, on most aircraft, the nosewheel steering is on the center system which has no direct engine source (center is usually driven by some combination of electric and pneumatic pumps). It's extremely unlikely that all hydraulics were lost, just the circuit powering the nosewheel steering.

That sounds actually very dangerous to me. Seeing as how a nosegear steering failure at the wrong time could actually send the plane careening off the side of the runway (and into the drink at a place like SFO or UIO), why isn't there a backup system for it?


User currently offlineBreninTW From Taiwan, joined Jul 2006, 1592 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2294 times:

Zeke,

This is the only report I've been able to find ... not much information in it though.

http://www.asc.gov.tw/asc_en/news_list_2.asp?news_no=479

This one speculates that it might have been a hydraulic failure.

http://www.wcarn.com/cache/news/20/20825.html



I'm tired of the A vs. B sniping. Neither make planes that shed wings randomly!
User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 434 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 23 hours ago) and read 2115 times:

I was once on an AA flight where this happened and the pilot lost nosewheel steering after landing at Miami. He managed to get us off the runway using differential thrust, and then we had to wait for a tug to tow us to the gate.

User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 8840 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting BreninTW (Reply 9):

Thanks for that, I read them and the avherald on the same event. None of them say the same as the
OP, seems the OP has an axe to grind against China Airlines.

The OP seems to have got their information from comments on the avherald link.

It is almost like they mixed these two up

http://avherald.com/h?article=45433103&opt=0

http://avherald.com/h?article=45435088&opt=0



We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 20 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 8):
That sounds actually very dangerous to me. Seeing as how a nosegear steering failure at the wrong time could actually send the plane careening off the side of the runway (and into the drink at a place like SFO or UIO), why isn't there a backup system for it?

Loss of nosewheel steering will not send the plane "careening off the side of the runway". If you're going fast enough to careen anywhere the rudder is still functional and will do its job just fine (the rudder is powerful enough to counteract an engine out with the other engine at takeoff thrust down to Vmcg and that test is done with the nosewheel free castering). If you're going so slow that the rudder isn't helping much then you're going slow enough that differential braking works just fine.

Loss of nosewheel steering, especially due to hydraulic failure, it annunciated so the crew should know it's coming.

And there is a backup to the overall system...there are (at least) two pumps on the hydraulic circuit and two hydraulic rams on the nosewheel. You need at least a dual failure to take out nosewheel steering in the first place and, even if you take it out, it's not a dangerous condition, just one where the flight crew needs to pay more attention.

Tom.


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