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Australian Aviation Thread # 63  
User currently offlineQF175 From Portugal, joined Mar 2007, 682 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 27357 times:

Welcome to the Australian Aviation Thread # 63. In the previous thread, the following points were discussed/raised:

* Qantas has quietly dropped its once-weekly 737-800 service from Sydney to Newman
* Hawaiian Airlines announces Honolulu - Brisbane services commencing November 2012
* Qatar Airways Perth inaugural flight touches down
* QantasLink opens a new state-of-the-art departure lounge at Brisbane Airport
* Qantas confirms extra services to Manila and Santiago over the Christmas period
* Qatar Airways possibly planning an alliance with Qantas
* Emirates announces flights to Adelaide commencing November 2012
* Virgin Australia places order for 23 737MAX
* Future Qantas International network
* Air Niugini confirms it will fly its new 737 to Sydney and Brisbane
* Qantas to install new pivotal bins on its 737 aircraft
* Qantas to deploy iPads to its pilots
* Qantas announces new closed charter services to Christmas Creek in Western Australia
* QantasLink announces extra Q400 flights from Melbourne, Tasmania and Canberra
* Perth Airport terminal construction
* Singapore Airlines confirms it will introduce a second A380 on MEL services later in 2012
* Qantas unveils its new marketing campaign - you're the reason we fly
* Qantas' operations to Santiago
* Air India reportedly puts forward RFPs for a range of services in MEL and SYD
* Virgin Australia's coast-to-coast product
* John Borghetti's performance as Virgin Australia CEO
* Diversions at various Airports due to the usual winter fog
* Qantas management
* Malaysia Airlines announces it will introduce the A380 to Melbourne on its KUL services in 2013
* Qantas announces a return to Gold Coast, with thrice daily 73H services commencing 28OCT12
* Etihad Airways reportedly set to announce an increase in Brisbane services to daily in 2013
* Brisbane Airport growth for 2011-2012 financial year

Australian Aviation Thread # 62

213 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQF175 From Portugal, joined Mar 2007, 682 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 27382 times:

Virgin Australia will drop its thrice weekly service from Brisbane to Hamilton in New Zealand effective 27OCT12. The Airline has cited poor loads for the move (hardly a surprise given Hamilton is a little over 100km from Auckland Airport). Virgin Australia dropped its nonstop Sydney - Hamilton services back in 2010.

User currently offlineJulian773 From Australia, joined Aug 2009, 116 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 27146 times:

Heard Go Cat 8172, Tiger 320 out of ML on ML centre before. After looking it up on flightaware saw its going to Changi via Darwin.
Anyone know why its going over there?

Cheers


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 26698 times:

I know it's a little early, but how is the SYD-DFW going daily doing loadings and revenue wise so far?

User currently offlineeaglefarm4 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 443 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 26669 times:

Virgin have announced BNE-PER flights going to 19 a week up from 16.Weekdays will be 3 flights in each direction.Extra days are Tuesday,Wednesday and Thursdays.

Also from next month Brisbane's cross runway will be closed for 20 weeks as works need to be carried out to make it into a new taxiway for the new runway 01L/19R.Work on clearing for the NPR will also start in September.

BNE is experiencing record aircraft movements with over 18,600 movements in July.Weekdays are now between 630-680 a day whilst weekends are a lot quieter around 440 and 490 respectively.



tourismman
User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 26650 times:

EY daily 332 BNE-SIN-AUH from FEB 2013.

CZ daily BNE from NOV 2012:
4x PEK-CAN-BNE-CAN-PEK + 3x CAN-BNE-CNS-CAN
BNE-CNS-CAN will be an evening departure


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2077 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 26647 times:

EY daily 332 BNE-SIN-AUH from FEB 2013.

CZ daily BNE from NOV 2012:
4x PEK-CAN-BNE-CAN-PEK + 3x CAN-BNE-CNS-CAN
BNE-CNS-CAN will be an evening departure op by 332. PEK-CAN-BNE currently operated by 333.


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 25977 times:

Looks like in addition to the planned QF B763 upgrade, 16 of the original B73Hs will be upgraded:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...again/story-fndo317g-1226453285938

Anyone have any more details?

Seems strange to only upgrade 16 of the "older" B73Hs, also no mention of adding seat back IFE to match the newer B73H fleet?

Strange.....

Cheers


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 25702 times:

Quoting vhebb (Reply 7):
Looks like in addition to the planned QF B763 upgrade, 16 of the original B73Hs will be upgraded:

I would assume the whole domestic fleet; 767, 73H and A330s will get the new carpets, seat covers, bulkheads etc. Except the 734s that should be leaving very soon. Hopefully we will see some photos next Thursday, perhaps even a glimpse at the longer term plans for the A330s.

I would have thought the 16 73H mentioned her would be getting IFE plus the bigger overhead bins. How many 73Hs does QF have with and without PTVs excluding the Jetconnect ones?

Also a nice bit of an upgrade: QF will be offering free wifi in their five biggest domestic terminals:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-of...pper&utm_campaign=home-flipper

Will be interesting to see the second phase of their marketing program- 91 reasons to fly with us. The above article mentions a few double ups... awkward and poor marketing.
http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...:youre-the-reason-we-fly-2:lang:en


User currently offlineeaglefarm4 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 443 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 25655 times:

Virgin's first ATR-72-600 has landed in BNE with a 2nd one only a month away.This will give them 8 ATR'S.

Expect more routes to be announced shortly within QLD.



tourismman
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 25638 times:

Quoting vhebb (Reply 7):
Seems strange to only upgrade 16 of the "older" B73Hs, also no mention of adding seat back IFE to match the newer B73H fleet?

These are probably the original batch taken over from American and delivered back in 2002/2003. Out of all of the 738's they would need a refresh and modernisation although it wouldn' surprise me to see it done to all of the Domestic 738's in due course.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 8):
767, 73H and A330s will get the new carpets, seat covers, bulkheads etc.

I wouldn't necessarily assume that. The domestic A330's are relatively new so it'd probably make more sense to do it to the A330's coming from Jetstar back to QF domestic first. I'd also assume this would only affect the few 767's that will remain in the domestic fleet in the long run. Makes no sense spending $$$'s on a plane you're going to retire in a couple of years. But I assume we'll know alot more Thursday at QF's profit announcement.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 8):
How many 73Hs does QF have with and without PTVs excluding the Jetconnect ones?

According to my count 15 of the domestic 738's have PTV's excluding Jetconnect. QF group have 60 total, including 8 at Jetconnect so 15 of 52 domestic birds have PTV's.


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 25602 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 10):
I wouldn't necessarily assume that. The domestic A330's are relatively new so it'd probably make more sense to do it to the A330's coming from Jetstar back to QF domestic first

This is true I had forgotten about them eventually returning to QF. The domestic CEO Lyle is also on record stating that the A330s would receive and upgraded and consistency product, maybe they will hold out for this.

I hope the herald sun got their descriptions wrong, charcoal seat covers in business is too similar to the black of Jetstar and Virgin, and is still very dull. I think the dark red looked great on the pictures I saw on the 738s.

Good to finally see some consistency flowing and upgrades flowing into the domestic fleet.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25350 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 11):
I hope the herald sun got their descriptions wrong, charcoal seat covers in business is too similar to the black of Jetstar and Virgin, and is still very dull. I think the dark red looked great on the pictures I saw on the 738s.

It looks miserable IMO -- AusBT has a story with renderings here. Going for the charcoal will probably save them a lot of money though -- they will be the same as what is used on the JQ seats. They might even reuse the old covers as JQ A330's get revamped for QF domestic (presumably with the new red leather seats).

I don't like the armrests either, and those Y seats look suspiciously similar to VA/DJ...


User currently offlineIndianicWorld From Australia, joined Jun 2001, 2957 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25347 times:

http://melbourneairport.com.au/News-...tal-passenger-growth-in-july-.html

Melbourne Airport has recorded a 5 per cent increase in total passenger numbers during July compared to the same period last year.

Domestic passenger numbers increased by 6 per cent to 1,929,506 passengers, reflecting the recovery in domestic activity following the disruptions at this time last year.

Melbourne Airport CEO, Chris Woodruff, said “Despite the challenges over the last two years, domestic airlines are providing more capacity and services. The recent announcements by Virgin Australia and Qantas to increase their A330 services between Melbourne and Perth are a great example of this. And it’s great for Victorian travellers.”

International passengers increased by 1 per cent on the same period last year.

China continued to lead international passenger growth, with an 8 per cent increase. Other markets, such as India, Vietnam, Sri Lanka and New Zealand also grew.

“We are in ongoing discussions with our airline customers about introducing more direct services to Melbourne, to bring more international visitors to Melbourne and Australia, and to provide Victorians with more travelling options.”

“Just last week we welcomed an additional daily A380 service from Singapore Airlines and in October, Emirates will introduce their twentieth A380 into service here in Melbourne. Later in the year, Jetstar will also reintroduce direct services to Hawaii,” said Mr Woodruff.

"Our investment in terminals, aerobridges and baggage handling systems to serve the A380, is paying dividends with Melbourne becoming a leading A380 destination. We’ll continue to invest in infrastructure to provide more capacity for domestic and international airlines, including ongoing planning for our new Southern Precinct domestic terminal.”

------

http://melbourneairport.com.au/News-...lias-additional-a330-services.html

Melbourne Airport has welcomed Virgin Australia’s introduction of additional A330 services between Melbourne and Perth.

Melbourne Airport CEO, Chris Woodruff said, “Melbourne Airport is delighted Virgin Australia is expanding its A330s services on its Melbourne-Perth route.”

“As one of Virgin Australia’s busiest domestic airports, the additional A330 services will increase Virgin’s capacity on the Melbourne-Perth route by nearly 30 per cent, strengthening Melbourne’s status as a premier destination for Australian travellers. It’s a great vote of confidence in the Melbourne market,” said Mr Woodruff.

Virgin Australia will commence operating additional A330s on its Melbourne-Perth service from 21 September, increasing to five daily A330 services.

“In partnership with Virgin Australia, we are continuing work on the refurbishment of our Terminal 3. Works are progressing well and we’ll continue to work with Virgin Australia to minimise disruptions to passengers. We look forward to unveiling the more contemporary and modern space for travelers at the end of the year,” said Mr Woodruff.


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25319 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 12):
It looks miserable IMO -- AusBT has a story with renderings here. Going for the charcoal will probably save them a lot of money though -- they will be the same as what is used on the JQ seats. They might even reuse the old covers as JQ A330's get revamped for QF domestic (presumably with the new red leather seats).

I don't like the armrests either, and those Y seats look suspiciously similar to VA/DJ...

Yeah not a fan, I don't understand why they didn't go for red leather, has that idea been shelved completly- Still a drab cabin, international red seat covers would have looked good. Nor am I fam of the print on the bulkheads and curtains...

The QF press release did states:

“We will also refresh the fleet’s cabin interiors with a contemporary design that includes leather seat covers in Business and a new look and feel in the Economy cabin. Other enhancements include new carpet, lighting, curtains and dividers. The first of 16 aircraft to be refreshed will enter into service in October.

In addition to new aircraft deliveries (one A330 and two B737-800s this year), the B767 refresh forms part of a wider strategic investment across the domestic customer experience including enhancements to ground operations and further upgrades to other domestic aircraft over the next few years."

I found that interesting, I thought all future A330s would be heading to SIN or JQ. How many domestic A332s does this bring them up to now? Wouldn't hurt if they did a swap to bring the JQ ones fitted with PTVs to QF and replace them with the non-PTV QF ones.


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 25278 times:

Here is th official B767 upgrade press release:

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...a-releases/aug-2012/5438/global/en

The original article about 16 B73Hs is incorrect it is actually 16 B763s that will be upgraded. 7 B763s (I assume the RR ones) will be retired meaning all remaining B763s (16) will be the upgraded ones.

The press release also states that other domestic aircraft will also be upgraded, I can only assume this means the older non PTV B73Hs?

Thanks

[Edited 2012-08-20 02:02:47]

[Edited 2012-08-20 02:03:28]

User currently offlineBrad330 From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 25247 times:

Will QF unify the configurations of the 763's?

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 25200 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 14):
Yeah not a fan, I don't understand why they didn't go for red leather, has that idea been shelved completly- Still a drab cabin, international red seat covers would have looked good. Nor am I fam of the print on the bulkheads and curtains...

I'm hoping that the approaching retirement of these planes means that they are doing this refresh on a very small budget, and that the longer term style will be different. They are looking for maximum impact, which this will probably achieve with the money they have to spend.

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 14):
I found that interesting, I thought all future A330s would be heading to SIN or JQ. How many domestic A332s does this bring them up to now? Wouldn't hurt if they did a swap to bring the JQ ones fitted with PTVs to QF and replace them with the non-PTV QF ones.

There are four domestic A332's -- two with the older 2-2-2 J layout (with the same seats as the Jetconnect 737's), and two with the newer 2-3-2 J layout (same as the two most recent JQ planes). The Y seats are identical on both (some slight layout difference to cram more in the newer configuration), and all seats have PTV's.

It will be interesting to see how this last aircraft is configured -- the existing 2-3-2 layout (not popular), or the red leather seats in 2-2-2. This will be a better indication of what will happen down the track.


User currently offlinemaxter From Australia, joined May 2009, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 24927 times:

An interesting little tidbit, some new renders of the Virgin pier for PER...

http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...ts-look-at-best-in-airport-design/

Apologies if it has already been discussed.



maxter
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 24794 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):
I'm hoping that the approaching retirement of these planes means that they are doing this refresh on a very small budget, and that the longer term style will be different. They are looking for maximum impact, which this will probably achieve with the money they have to spend.

That's what I'm hoping as well! The Red Leather does look much better!

Quoting maxter (Reply 18):
An interesting little tidbit, some new renders of the Virgin pier for PER...

Interesting. It'll also be interesting to see what they do in the old Domestic terminal once Virgin has moved over into it's new home. Do they, and Qantas, spend more dollars on re-configuring it into one terminal or do they leave it as is and divide up the Qantas services somehow? More to the point, it'll be interesting to see what they do in relation to having 1 security checkpoint for all QF pax because that'll hamper connections unless they only have the one checkpoint.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 17):
or the red leather seats in 2-2-2. This will be a better indication of what will happen down the track.

Let us hope Red Leather 2-2-2. They'll need that config to remain competitve with VA anyway. On a side note, and correct me if I'm wrong, but on the one's that are 2-3-2, aren't the middle seats in the 3 blocked off so they're effectively 2-2-2 anyway?


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 24632 times:

Quote:
Will QF unify the configurations of the 763's?

Yes... The remaining couple of B763s with the old intl style 25J cabins will be converted to the 30J domestic style config during the upgrade.

As HNL is the only B763 international route I'm guessing it will go A330 eventually, or JQ only route?

The 16 B763s getting upgraded are all the existing GE powered birds OGG thru OGV.

The 7 ex BA B763s will be retired.

Thanks


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 24614 times:

A few other recent Qantas changes:

*Refreshed Qantas website has been launched at www.qantas.com.au

*Free Qantas domestic terminal wifi will be launched in SYD, MEL, BNE and PER from the end of the year:

http://www.ausbt.com.au/qantas-to-offer-free-airport-wifi

*Qantas CityFlyer branding is being phased out by the end of the year. CityFlyer signage and branding is already being removed from domestic terminals, and CityFlyer references during announcements have ceased.

Cheers


User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 23669 times:

Quoting maxter (Reply 18):
An interesting little tidbit, some new renders of the Virgin pier for PER...

It seems the current Gate 1 of the int terminal, apron position 51, will become Gate 51 and potentially an exclusively Emirates gate. The images are heavy with Emirates branding, and the gate is also situated next to the carrier's airport lounge.

Additional images here http://www.carry-on.com.au/airports/...h-airport-airport-design-unlikely/

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 19):
Do they, and Qantas, spend more dollars on re-configuring it into one terminal or do they leave it as is and divide up the Qantas services somehow?

Perhaps the current Terminal 3 will become a dedicated QantasLink terminal?

Virgin Australia will also replace EMB190 aircraft with ATR72s on the Sydney - Albury route.

[Edited 2012-08-26 05:47:55]

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 23588 times:

Quoting vhebb (Reply 21):
Qantas CityFlyer branding is being phased out by the end of the year. CityFlyer signage and branding is already being removed from domestic terminals, and CityFlyer references during announcements have ceased.

What are the implications for this with regards to product offering? Are they going to roll out the CityFlyer product network wide?

Quoting vhebb (Reply 20):
or JQ only route?

I hope not, at that point I'd think that QF management has finally lost it. I was under the impression that HNL was the unsung star of the international network (with JNB)



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 23577 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):

What are the implications for this with regards to product offering? Are they going to roll out the CityFlyer product network wide?

What is the distinctive product offering? News papers and free beer and wine week days after 4 (which is also offered on all QFLink service too).

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):

I hope not, at that point I'd think that QF management has finally lost it. I was under the impression that HNL was the unsung star of the international network (with JNB)

Hopefully with a new domestic A330 headed our way soon this will free some A332 international flying off domestic and it can be sent to HNL!


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 23804 times:

Quoting carryon (Reply 22):
It seems the current Gate 1 of the int terminal, apron position 51, will become Gate 51 and potentially an exclusively Emirates gate. The images are heavy with Emirates branding, and the gate is also situated next to the carrier's airport lounge.

Apart from EK, the only other A380 operator I see in PER is SQ, which is still very unlikely seeing as it's only a 5 hour flight. So it makes sense to use alot of EK branding at the gate.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 26, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 23827 times:

Quoting vhebb (Reply 15):
Here is th official B767 upgrade press release:

http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airl...a-releases/aug-2012/5438/global/en

The original article about 16 B73Hs is incorrect it is actually 16 B763s that will be upgraded. 7 B763s (I assume the RR ones) will be retired meaning all remaining B763s (16) will be the upgraded ones.

and there is my proof finally released...

Quoting vhebb (Reply 20):
The 7 ex BA B763s will be retired.

        

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 27, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23836 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 26):
and there is my proof finally released...

Interestingly for what they've said will be replaced they're only spending the grand total of $20million. ($1.25 million per plane).

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 25):
Apart from EK, the only other A380 operator I see in PER is SQ, which is still very unlikely seeing as it's only a 5 hour flight. So it makes sense to use alot of EK branding at the gate.

I don't really see SQ as an A380 operator to PER. Not when their A330's and 77W's can easily service the market at the frequency level they currently have. And, as you say, for 5 hours it hardly seems worth firing up an A380.


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23838 times:

SQ unlikely to serve PER with A380 unless they order more. They have just about received the final A380 ordered (19) and don't have much availability given they will be using the A380 to slot constrained airports like FRA, LHR and SYD. If they do a follow-up order, this may change but PER wouldn't top of their list.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 23605 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 19):
on the one's that are 2-3-2, aren't the middle seats in the 3 blocked off so they're effectively 2-2-2 anyway?

Yes they are (with tacky plastic contraptions that look like booster seats), though the width of the seats/aisles is narrower than in a true 2-2-2 configuration (though the difference doesn't feel that big).

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 23):
I hope not, at that point I'd think that QF management has finally lost it. I was under the impression that HNL was the unsung star of the international network (with JNB)

QF has a tricky decision to make with HNL. As it stands, their expenses are relatively pretty low (ie using cheap/fully owned 767's which are pretty efficient for the route) and moving to A332's might push core costs up to an unprofitable level (ie high lease/repayments, higher trip cost etc). JQ has proven that they can profitably run the route with A330's, so it might simply make more sense for them to take over, potentially less than daily from SYD along with the announced flights from MEL and potentially BNE/AKL.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 27):
Interestingly for what they've said will be replaced they're only spending the grand total of $20million. ($1.25 million per plane).

Does that cost include fitting the wireless IFE systems? That will be a big chunk of the expense if it does.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 23572 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 29):
Yes they are (with tacky plastic contraptions that look like booster seats), though the width of the seats/aisles is narrower than in a true 2-2-2 configuration (though the difference doesn't feel that big).

Maybe they'll do a re-fit of these once the 787's start to arrive at JQ? It would make sense to gear up to do a refresh of all of the domestic A332's at that stage so they have a standard product on board.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 29):
Does that cost include fitting the wireless IFE systems? That will be a big chunk of the expense if it does.

It was an all up cost and wasn't broken down so not sure what the component costs are. Maybe someone closer to the action can comment?


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 23538 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 29):
QF has a tricky decision to make with HNL. As it stands, their expenses are relatively pretty low (ie using cheap/fully owned 767's which are pretty efficient for the route) and moving to A332's might push core costs up to an unprofitable level

An A332 would be able to haul more freight on the route though, increasing revenue potential. I think this 767 product has to go from international as it tarnishes the brand.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 23458 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 31):
An A332 would be able to haul more freight on the route though, increasing revenue potential. I think this 767 product has to go from international as it tarnishes the brand.

By the looks of what is happening to the 767 fleet it will be gone with this refresh. Maybe they'll keep using the 767 but in a domestic configuration with Q streaming Ipads and full service? For economy pax it'll be a step up, in business it'll be identical to the JQ hard product but with QF full service.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 23345 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 31):
I think this 767 product has to go from international as it tarnishes the brand.

There was word going around earlier in the year that the SYD - HNL service would be upgraded to a A332 but nothing has materialised...

With all the International route changes there must be a spare frame to operate the popular holiday destination...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 23326 times:

Page 15 of Results announcement presentation does not mention HNL in future QF int"l routes making me think that HNL will be JQ only very soon.


717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 23282 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 34):
Page 15 of Results announcement presentation does not mention HNL in future QF int"l routes making me think that HNL will be JQ only very soon

Interesting to see them taking on Hawaiian. I think QF would be stupid to drop this with HA using their 767's on the route.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 23186 times:

Quoting zkokq (Reply 35):
HA using their 767's on the route.

HA have upgraded to a A332 daily and will be introducing BNE services... If QF drop the HNL and route expect to go head to head with HA utilizing JQ good luck...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 22905 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 29):
QF has a tricky decision to make with HNL. As it stands, their expenses are relatively pretty low (ie using cheap/fully owned 767's which are pretty efficient for the route) and moving to A332's might push core costs up to an unprofitable level (ie high lease/repayments, higher trip cost etc).

True, but we've got to remember that QF's prices to HNL are almost as high as to LAX. I don't have any scientific data to back that up, but choose any day at random and compare the fares to HNL (in both Y and J) to LAX. A couple of times I've even seen J higher than LAX - I'd be pretty miffed if I was paying more for a 767 J than A380!

Obviously this doesn't mean anything of itself, but it does show that there is still demand for a full service airline to HNL. HA are p*$$ing circles around QF on that route right now, and while they have lower operating costs I can't believe that costs alone can explain a difference of 4 weekly flights (+BNE).

I'm don't usually consider myself a JQ basher, but in this case I genuinely believe that QF have been blinded by the words "leisure market" and "JetStar". Those two terms are not - of themselves - directly congruant, especially on a 10 hour flight. If QF were to pull out of HNL I would guess that the vast majority of their passengers would move over to HA and NZ rather than JQ.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 22795 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
I'm don't usually consider myself a JQ basher, but in this case I genuinely believe that QF have been blinded by the words "leisure market" and "JetStar". Those two terms are not - of themselves - directly congruant, especially on a 10 hour flight. If QF were to pull out of HNL I would guess that the vast majority of their passengers would move over to HA and NZ rather than JQ.

It's an interesting quandry. Certainly it appears as if HNL has been in a holding pattern and it'll be interesting to see if JQ starting MEL-HNL takes people away from the QF SYD service or the JQ SYD service. An upgrade to the A332 would be nice however I fear that the current International config A332's might be a bit premium heavy with 36J vs only 25 in the International 767's. This is where a refresh of the QF International A332's might be in order to reduce them to say 24 Skybed 1's and 230 odd economy seats. That would make them perfect for places like HNL, MNL etc where full service can be justified but you also need the economy seats for the tourists and would actually increase economy seats from 205 in the International 767's to closer to 230.


User currently offlineZuluAlpha From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 22788 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
True, but we've got to remember that QF's prices to HNL are almost as high as to LAX. I don't have any scientific data to back that up, but choose any day at random and compare the fares to HNL (in both Y and J) to LAX. A couple of times I've even seen J higher than LAX - I'd be pretty miffed if I was paying more for a 767 J than A380!

I have to agree, but the loads to HNL on QF are very high, I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of their more profitable routes (especially with the fact the 763 are 100% owned by QF).

Quoting EK413 (Reply 33):
There was word going around earlier in the year that the SYD - HNL service would be upgraded to a A332 but nothing has materialised

I remember a question was raised about this to QF exec. committee and the answer was along the lines of they were waiting for a spare 330, and once one was available, then they would be introduced to HNL



CRJ CR7 D10 DHT DH8 DH2 DH3 DH4 EMB ER3 E90 F28 J32 M80 SH6 320 332 333 380 717 732 733 734 738 743 744 752 762 763 772
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 22771 times:

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 39):
I remember a question was raised about this to QF exec. committee and the answer was along the lines of they were waiting for a spare 330, and once one was available, then they would be introduced to HNL

That's good to hear.

The other thing to keep in the back of your head is that (high cost) BA have a very successful Caribbean network. The stage lengths from the UK are about the same as HNL, and while these flights are (mostly) operated using the lower cost LGW base it does show that there is demand for full service from "premium leisure travellers".



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 22649 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
If QF were to pull out of HNL I would guess that the vast majority of their passengers would move over to HA and NZ rather than JQ.

As a frequent traveller to HNL, I tried NZ out for the first time this year and I can officially say you'll never find me stepping on board a QF 767 or JQ to HNL ever again!


User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 days ago) and read 22512 times:

Virgin Australia has announced a full year tax profit of $22.8 million, and a full year underlying profit before tax of $82.5 million. The airline has also completed its game change programme and is moving to the next phase called "Game On". A new focus will be building the airline loyalty programme membership to 5 million and increasing its international network. Orders will also be placed for either A350s or B787s.

http://www.carry-on.com.au/blog/virgin-aus-profit/


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22460 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 31):
An A332 would be able to haul more freight on the route though, increasing revenue potential

This is true, but a daily JQ A332 has the same freight capacity (perhaps more, if less passenger bags are checked in) as a 4-5 weekly JQ A332 and 2-3 weekly QF A332. It might also be more profitable to carry freight on dedicated freighter services.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 37):
True, but we've got to remember that QF's prices to HNL are almost as high as to LAX.

Very true, and I would find it hard to believe that it is a poorly performing route (predominately for this reason). Economy fares are also significantly higher than JQ, even once you bundle in a meal/baggage etc to bring JQ up to the same service level.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 38):
Certainly it appears as if HNL has been in a holding pattern

And this is what suggests to me that it's a route that's in the balance. If it was such a runaway success (as is suggested by the high fares), then surely they would be trying to gradually push some more capacity towards the route while sustaining the higher fare level.

We also have to remember that the A332's have 11 more J seats than the 763's (a 44% increase in supply), so it would be reasonable to assume that fares would drop significantly if QF wanted to sustain existing load factor.

I would argue that the route only works for QF because the fares are kept so high due to undersupply. Adding capacity, while upping costs, would threaten their yield and profitability. The question now is whether they can find a balance between what they have today, and what an A330 would offer.

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 39):
I have to agree, but the loads to HNL on QF are very high, I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of their more profitable routes (especially with the fact the 763 are 100% owned by QF).

Just because it's profitable on a 767 doesn't mean that it will be profitable on an A330. If it was clear that using A330's would sustain existing profitability (and perhaps even increase it due to additional pax and cargo capacity), then they would have done the switch years ago before all the international A330's suddenly became domestic planes.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 22421 times:

FWIW, it doesn't look like there is much demand for air freight on SYD-HNL - May 2012 only had 316 tonnes, counting both directions. SYD-LAX had 2116 tonnes for comparison.

User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 22300 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 43):
We also have to remember that the A332's have 11 more J seats than the 763's (a 44% increase in supply), so it would be reasonable to assume that fares would drop significantly if QF wanted to sustain existing load factor.

That's true. As I said above, I wonder if it makes more sense to re-configure the current A332's to have less premium seats, higher economy count for these sorts of routes. With the hops they're doing to places like CGK, MNL and on PER-SIN I'm sure they would be better config'd for the market with the reduction. But maybe that'll wait until the A332's start coming back from JQ which will also need a refit.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 22176 times:

Quoting ZuluAlpha (Reply 39):
I remember a question was raised about this to QF exec. committee and the answer was along the lines of they were waiting for a spare 330, and once one was available, then they would be introduced to HNL

For the love of me I have never understood why QF continue to shoot them self in the foot by providing an outdated product on the SYD-HNL route while the competition upgrades the equipment... I can't wait to see the introduction of the A332 to the route...

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 41):
never find me stepping on board a QF 767 or JQ to HNL ever again!

and if the A332 is introduced would that change your mind...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 22064 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 45):

They were a bit unlucky with configuring the A332's, given that they settled on a pretty J-heavy config just before the economy went downhill. Perhaps something like a 24J/28W/220Y config could be done after the 747's are finished, to last until the end of this decade once QF starts taking 787's and can return these planes to domestic. That would work well for routes like HNL and those that you list... I'm not holding my breath though.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 46):
why QF continue to shoot them self in the foot by providing an outdated product on the SYD-HNL route while the competition upgrades the equipment...

Yet the route is performing well by all accounts...


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21997 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 46):
and if the A332 is introduced would that change your mind...

Probably not, as it's almost impossible to get Frequent Flier seats on QF (or JQ for that matter!)
I got seats PER-AKL-HNL using SQ KrisFlyer points on first attempt with no problems whatsoever.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 21996 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 47):

& for how long will it continue...?

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 48):

Valid point...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 21786 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 48):
it's almost impossible to get Frequent Flier seats on QF

Interesting... The only time I flew the flight I was heading to the mainland and there were no FF seats to LAX or SFO from either BNE, SYD or MEL. I did - however - get BNE-SYD-HNL and then paid ~$200 for a HA flight from HNL to LAS. On the return I had to go LAX-MEL-BNE to get FF seats - 7 hours longer than LAX-BNE  

I guess I got very lucky snagging that HNL flight, since it would have been a paid trip overwise



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 21664 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 47):
They were a bit unlucky with configuring the A332's, given that they settled on a pretty J-heavy config just before the economy went downhill. Perhaps something like a 24J/28W/220Y config could be done after the 747's are finished, to last until the end of this decade once QF starts taking 787's and can return these planes to domestic. That would work well for routes like HNL and those that you list... I'm not holding my breath though.

Dare I say it, that sort of config would also work well on say ADL-SIN if they wanted to make it daily. But I agree, not holding my breath.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 50):
Interesting... The only time I flew the flight I was heading to the mainland and there were no FF seats to LAX or SFO from either BNE, SYD or MEL. I did - however - get BNE-SYD-HNL and then paid ~$200 for a HA flight from HNL to LAS. On the return I had to go LAX-MEL-BNE to get FF seats - 7 hours longer than LAX-BNE

I've just booked my FF seats to FRA and back for next July. Business was already blocked for the days I wanted. Pacific was looking the same. I think alot of that comes down to luck.


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21744 times:

QF are very stingy with award seats, I try to travel with SQ/Star as much as possible now, and I have never had an issue getting the flights I want. Even prestigious routes like SIN-EWR return and LAX-SIN I have never had a problem with.

User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21706 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 52):

QF are very stingy with award seats, I try to travel with SQ/Star as much as possible now, and I have never had an issue getting the flights I want.

Maybe Qantas has enough paying passengers on those flights so as to leave little room for FF. Surely, as a general economic principle, this is a good thing for them (though it doesn't help loyalty). Star has more direct frequency/capacity to its hubs, which probably means a better distribution of available FF seats for a given day. If you want a Qantas equivalent, then a quick check shows lots of FF availability Qantas domestic routes between the major Australian capitals and their "hub" of Sydney.  



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 21697 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 53):
a quick check shows lots of FF availability Qantas domestic routes between the major Australian capitals and their "hub" of Sydney

That's a good point, they are usually pretty good for domestic rewards. However, A lot of people use miles for international travel/vacation so several hundred seats per day from SYD to MEL aren't overly useful.

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 52):

My mum is a UA FF and has similarly decent experiences finding rewards. A couple of weeks ago she booked for Thanksgiving (not normally an easy time for rewards) and was able to get SYD-YVR-YYZ-RDU, IAD-LAX-SYD. Similarly my sister used her miles to go SYD-SFO-LAS, SFO-LAX-SYD last July in the middle of summer (i.e. peak time in the USA) and was also able to get reward seats at (relatively) short notice. While availability on *A partners to Asia/Europe is more hit-and-miss, we've never had a problem getting free flights to - or around - the USA.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3325 posts, RR: 20
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 20869 times:

Looks like a few very quiet days in the Australian thread, so I thought I'd give it a bump along... particularly in light of the much touted EK/QF announcement this Thursday.

this announcement has the potential to real change the Australian international landscape.

8 Million QF frequent flyer could potentially make EK the carrier of choice for Europe and Africa.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 20837 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 55):
this announcement has the potential to real change the Australian international landscape.

Lets wait until the announcement, if it happens, before we continue the hypotheticals from the other thread in here. Some facts will make all the difference.  


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 20756 times:

QantasLink To Upgrade B717 Interiors:

Quote:
QantasLink will upgrade and reconfigure the interiors of its B717 fleet and build additional capacity to provide an enhanced customer experience.

New ergonomically-designed seats will provide customers with increased levels of comfort featuring:

*A top-mounted magazine box to maximise legroom;
*An additional seat pocket ideal for the storage of personal electronic devices;
*An adjustable headrest; and
*A sliding tray table.

The installation of the new seats, combined with a reconfiguration of storage space, has enabled QantasLink to increase capacity on board the B717s and provide at the same time, an enhanced customer experience. The refresh will also see the cabin furnishings replaced with an interior colour scheme consistent with Qantas’ contemporary styling onboard Qantas mainline B738 aircraft.

The first refurbished B717 is expected to enter service in late November 2012.QantasLink looks forward to sharing further details on the route allocation of the B717 in the near future.


User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 20429 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 33):
There was word going around earlier in the year that the SYD - HNL service would be upgraded to a A332 but nothing has materialised...

I think it was ment to be November last year when the A330 was suposed to go onto the SYD HNL route .


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 20106 times:

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 58):
I think it was ment to be November last year when the A330 was suposed to go onto the SYD HNL route .

It's been 'planned' to go to A330 every summer season since I can remember! There was even rumours of QF putting a 744 on the route a few years ago (before the A332's arrived IIRC)!

My bet is that nothing will happen with the route until it has to. The existing arrangement appears to be working for QF, so I expect it will continue until they run out of International 767's to fly it, and only then will we see if they go the A330 route or hand it over to JQ.

Does anyone know when the International 767's will be retired?


User currently offlinetullamarine From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1557 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 20023 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 59):
Does anyone know when the International 767's will be retired?

I believe the recently announced refit on 767s will mean there will be no 767s remaining with Dreamtime seats. These will be replaced with the 6 across Millenium seats seen on the ex-BA 763s as well as JQ A332s. At this point, I believe QF will hand the route over to JQ alone. This is confirmed by reviewing Page 15 of their results presentation which showed QF's only US routes as being LAX and DFW.



717,721/2,732/3/4/5/7/8/9,742/3/4,752/3,762/3,772,W,A310,320,321,332,333,388,DC9,DC10,F28,F100,142,143,E90,CR2,D82/3/4,S
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 19912 times:

Quoting tullamarine (Reply 60):

There is a footnote on that slide that explains that the table "excludes services from Sydney to Honolulu". The table is designed to explain how QF is improving their product, not their fleet plans, so I don't think we can really make any judgments based on it.

In any case, do we know when the 767's are actually going to be phased out? All I've seen is that the refits will start in October without any finish date...


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 19700 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 61):

With the B787s scheduled to arrive at JQ next year (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the retirement of B763 fleet will commence... The ex-BA would be the 1st to depart the fleet...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19433 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 62):
With the B787s scheduled to arrive at JQ next year (correct me if I'm wrong) I believe the retirement of B763 fleet will commence... The ex-BA would be the 1st to depart the fleet...

That's correct, but given JQ growth ambitions, it doesn't provide the airline with much room to grow if the 787s replace A330s 1-to-1. Perhaps in reality only a few A330s will return?

Qantas and Emirates announced their comprehensive partnership today. But, who remembers that the two carriers codeshared back in 1996? How 15 years changes things. Alan Joyce says "This agreement represents a step-change for the aviation industry. It is far bigger than a codeshare. Or even a joint services agreement. This is the biggest arrangement Qantas has ever entered into with another airline".

More importantly, with the strategic rethink Qantas will no longer neglect Asia. With increased frequencies, new schedules. Perhaps a new foray into China? Perhaps we will see QF actually get some of the 15 Boeing 787-8's that it gave up for Jetstar.
http://www.carry-on.com.au/blog/a-momentous-day-aviation/


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 19426 times:

Quoting carryon (Reply 63):

Perhaps your right and with the arrival of the B787 @ JQ even I believe they will return a hand full & bet the 1st 4 x frames to be returned would be VH-EBA,B,C & D which is ideal for the domestic sectors & not International operations as they have been fitted out with a lighter floor and not suitable for the QF skybed...

Today's news is exciting and I believe we will see QF expand the Asian routes with better schedule timings... Very exciting...

As for QFs codeshare back in 1996 I also remember QF had an agreement with EY which only lasted a few weeks in 2010 if not mistaken?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 19029 times:

EK and QF have announced they will match services to who ever has the higher standard. An example is QF will begin to offer 'eligible' first and business class customers limo services, the details aren't clear if it will be across the board or just on LHR service, what else can we expect? I think an introduction of premium economy for EK is slim, but an interesting consideration.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 64):
Today's news is exciting and I believe we will see QF expand the Asian routes with better schedule timings... Very exciting...

This is one part I am most interested in, what services increases will we see to Asia?

New services;
MEL-SIN
SYD-SIN (With LHR and FRA gone am I correct that without a new service there is no QF service between SYD and SIN)
MEL-NRT
MEL-PVG

Any other predications?

With one new domestic A332 coming that should free up some international capacity as well, I could also see with domestic and international opps now separate the international division may see greater profits sending their A330s to asia then using them domestically, with the 767 refurbs commencing we may see increased usage of them until the JQ A330s return.

With FRA being cancelled perhaps in the short term we may also see a few more 744 services domestically before the aircraft is retired. They are probably too big for any new Asian services.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8552 posts, RR: 13
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 19018 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 65):
I think an introduction of premium economy for EK is slim, but an interesting consideration.

Unless QF share yield information with their new partner which leads them to decide that premium economy would be a big money earner.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 18922 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 65):
This is one part I am most interested in, what services increases will we see to Asia?

Talk about a negative response and the more I have a think about it I know why your not interested...

I'll predict the flights will become a lunchtime departure and downgrades from SYD,MEL & BNE...

SYD-SIN from a A380 to A330
MEL-SIN from a A380 to A330
BNE-SIN from a B744 to A330
PER-SIN double daily to daily A330
ADL-SIN daily A330 to be dropped

On a positive note I hope QF open up new routes which have previously been dropped...

SYD-PEK A330
SYD-HNL B767 upgrade A330
MEL-PVG A330

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 18797 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 65):
Perhaps your right and with the arrival of the B787 @ JQ even I believe they will return a hand full & bet the 1st 4 x frames to be returned would be VH-EBA,B,C & D which is ideal for the domestic sectors & not International operations as they have been fitted out with a lighter floor and not suitable for the QF skybed...

The aircraft would require a full interior refurb. Likely JQ's latest A330s would be returned to QF. These are already fitted with Panasonic IFE and recaro seating.

QF's A330-300s are also in desperate need of an interior refit as well. There is just no consistency in product across the fleet.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 64):
As for QFs codeshare back in 1996 I also remember QF had an agreement with EY which only lasted a few weeks in 2010 if not mistaken?

The agreement lasted for about 6 months, Etihad wanted to deepen the relationship, but QF management saw no 'economic benefit'. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-09-2...urned-down-etihad-alliance/2278878

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 65):
just on LHR service, what else can we expect? I think an introduction of premium economy for EK is slim, but an interesting consideration.

At yesterday's media briefing, Tim Clark said premium economy was a work in progress. Will be interesting to see what comes of this. Emirates have already announced they will add a 4th tier to FF programme to match QF Platinum 1.


User currently offlineA36001 From Australia, joined Sep 2012, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 18455 times:

Hi Everyone,

First time poster and all.... so apologies if this has been asked before, but I have been wondering why Qantas and Cathay Pacific don't get on? Iv'e seen comments that they don't like each other etc but can't seem to locate why?


User currently offlinezkokq From Australia, joined Mar 2012, 475 posts, RR: 0
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18394 times:

Quoting A36001 (Reply 69):
First time poster and all.... so apologies if this has been asked before, but I have been wondering why Qantas and Cathay Pacific don't get on? Iv'e seen comments that they don't like each other etc but can't seem to locate why?

I am guessing Jetstar Hong Kong might have something to do with it


User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18367 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 67):
Talk about a negative response and the more I have a think about it I know why your not interested...



I'm sorry you lost me... what do you mean? I am excited by the whole agreement. I just find the increase in point to point Asian flying for QF the most interesting. I hope to see an increase in QF metal flying and in the short to mid-term; this looks mainly to be focused on Asia.

Negotiations have also commenced for AI's ground handeling contract. Now that the first 787 has been delivered, let hope this time around the route goes ahead!


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 18325 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 65):
This is one part I am most interested in, what services increases will we see to Asia?
Quoting smi0006 (Reply 71):
I'm sorry you lost me... what do you mean? I am excited by the whole agreement.

My wrong disregard I read your post again and it's error from my part so you have a right to be confused!

What are the chances of the international A330s being reconfigured with W/C...?

Considering SIN will be losing out with F/C and W/C being dropped...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 18322 times:

Quoting A36001 (Reply 69):

Probably because they overlap a lot -- in the same way that TG and SQ doesn't get along in *. QF probably thinks CX is being reckless in their expansion into Australia over the past decade (ie they have become the dominant carrier while QF has lost market share), 'stealing' traffic travelling into Asia (especially into China, where QF reportedly struggles) and on the Kangaroo Route.

I imagine CX doesn't give a stuff what QF thinks, and nor should they IMO. QF has let them take the market for themselves, but it's now reached a point where they just don't get along.

The other part of the problem is the fact that QF Frequent Flyers can earn points on CX services -- one of the key benefits of flying QF over most Asian/ME carriers was instantly wiped off the table.

Quoting zkokq (Reply 70):
I am guessing Jetstar Hong Kong might have something to do with it

The frosty relationship long predates JQ HKG...


User currently offlinecarryon From Australia, joined Aug 2012, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18245 times:

Quoting A36001 (Reply 69):
First time poster and all.... so apologies if this has been asked before, but I have been wondering why Qantas and Cathay Pacific don't get on? Iv'e seen comments that they don't like each other etc but can't seem to locate why?

At the end of the day, alliance members who's networks overlap will always have issues, as qf002 said Thai and Singapore Airlines. Carriers that once competed against one another who end up in the same alliance will continue to harbour past views of their fellow members. The problem becomes worse when these are very profitable routes and of course they don't wish to share those customers with other alliance members. Cathay will always protect its own interests ahead of the joint alliance interests, so will Qantas. Shareholders (whether they be governments or the share owning public) need to be appeased and when their own territory is encroached, most carriers will have an adverse reaction.

In addition, ACCC laws prevent CX and QF cooperating on services between HK and Australia as they would hold a monopoly on the route.


User currently offline9MMPD From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 285 posts, RR: 1
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18120 times:

Quoting A36001 (Reply 69):
Hi Everyone,

First time poster and all.... so apologies if this has been asked before, but I have been wondering why Qantas and Cathay Pacific don't get on? Iv'e seen comments that they don't like each other etc but can't seem to locate why?



From what I thought it first started when QF used to run the golden triangle route from HKG to BKK and SIN in the late 80s with 767s. From then the relation soured and it did not help at all with QF then flying to LHR from HKG.


User currently offlineA36001 From Australia, joined Sep 2012, 173 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18114 times:

Thanks for the info regarding CX and QF's non-relationship. I wonder how deep it goes? Is it ground staff flicking rubber bands over the check in desks at each other or head office saying "that bloody Cathay Pacific/Qantas, we can't stand them! Now why didn't we think of that?

Anyway thanks again. Very informative  


User currently offlineAndrensn From New Zealand, joined Jun 2012, 73 posts, RR: 0
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 17946 times:

QF launching PER-AKL? + New Qantas chauffeur service

Source
http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...tas-touts-benefits-of-partnership/


User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 691 posts, RR: 0
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17917 times:

Quoting Andrensn (Reply 77):
QF launching PER-AKL? + New Qantas chauffeur service

Now that's something I did not see coming! Apparently this service will connect with the EK service arriving at 5:25pm, so I guess it will depart around the same time as NZ176 at 7:35pm. What aircraft would QF use on this route? 332 or 333?


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17921 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 78):
What aircraft would QF use on this route? 332 or 333?

A333 would be far too big IMO. Capacity to PER has already increased and I'm not sure if doubling the capacity can be sustained; especially with what appears to be a slowdown in the mining sector. I don't really want to say 763 but I'd believe it is more suited to this job than any other plane - one with iPads. I doubt the 738 can make it nonstop to PER though if it could, it'd probably be well suited to starting AKL-PER daily.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 17933 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 78):
QF launching PER-AKL? + New Qantas chauffeur service

Now that's something I did not see coming! Apparently this service will connect with the EK service arriving at 5:25pm, so I guess it will depart around the same time as NZ176 at 7:35pm. What aircraft would QF use on this route? 332 or 333?

That makes 2 of us...

Is this the return of mainline QF across the Tasman... To go head to head with NZ the product would need to match or be better than what's on offer onboard the NZ B77W...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offline9MMPD From Australia, joined Oct 2005, 285 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 17911 times:

I saw the artile in today's West Australian Newspaper about QF possibly starting PER-AKL but I was under the impression that it would be on EK metal on a 77W with a codeshare with QF. Is there any room in the QF A330 schedule to fit PER-AKL?

User currently offlineTN486 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 921 posts, RR: 2
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 17906 times:

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 75):
From what I thought it first started when QF used to run the golden triangle route from HKG to BKK and SIN in the late 80s with 767s. From then the relation soured and it did not help at all with QF then flying to LHR from HKG

I believe you are correct, there was a hell of a bun fight over that.



remember the t shirt "I own an airline"on the front - "qantas" on the back
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17896 times:

Quoting 9MMPD (Reply 81):
but I was under the impression that it would be on EK metal on a 77W with a codeshare with QF.

They'd have to give up one of their other flights as they have maxed out their trans tasman rights.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17846 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 67):
SYD-SIN from a A380 to A330
MEL-SIN from a A380 to A330
BNE-SIN from a B744 to A330
PER-SIN double daily to daily A330
ADL-SIN daily A330 to be dropped
Quoting EK413 (Reply 67):
SYD-PEK A330
SYD-HNL B767 upgrade A330
MEL-PVG A330
Quoting Andrensn (Reply 77):
QF launching PER-AKL?

If we're playing Crystal balls, then QF have plenty of room to move once JQ 787's start arriving. 4 of 11 JQ A332's have lighter floors so will hit domestic routes. That leaves 7 including one's that are less than 3 years old that are ideal for International flying.

Since QF have said there will be a focus on Singapore and Hong Kong O&D I'd expect;

MEL-SIN - goes to A330 and is re-timed to a mid-morning departures. Allows for plenty of 3K and Partner connections.
SYD-SIN - goes to A330 and is also re-timed per MEL.
BNE-SIN - ditto
PER-SIN - goes to A332 once a day. JQ/3K move around their departure times to provide frequency.
ADL-SIN - A330 stays and is re-timed with JQ/3K adding service to make it daily.
PER-HKG - upgrades to daily and is re-timed;
BNE-HKG - upgrades to daily and is re-timed;
PER-AKL - interesting addition for an A332.
SYD-PEK - I'm doubtful. I think it more likely that MEL will get its PVG service back first.

We've also been working on the assumption that the ex BA 763's will be replaced 1 for 1 by A332's coming in from JQ. What if they're not? What if QF actually plans to replace that capacity with higher frequency 738 service, since there are plenty of those coming into the domestic fleet, and just the 4 lighter floored A332's? That leaves 7 JQ A332's unaccounted for most of which are fitted for Panasonic IFE like the A380's and upgraded 744's are.


User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17845 times:

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the 747s on the SYD-NRT run are likely to upgraded to the A380 interiors by mid October?


Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 17808 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 85):
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the 747s on the SYD-NRT run are likely to upgraded to the A380 interiors by mid October?

Unlikely, but not completely impossible.

From what I understand the upgraded interiors are being prioritised for Americas flying: QF7/8, QF15/16, QF107/8 + SCL



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 17776 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 86):
From what I understand the upgraded interiors are being prioritised for Americas flying: QF7/8, QF15/16, QF107/8 + SCL

And BNE-SIN.   Thought once the EK deal kicks in, that 744 will no doubt be free..............


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 17688 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 84):
If we're playing Crystal balls, then QF have plenty of room to move once JQ 787's start arriving. 4 of 11 JQ A332's have lighter floors so will hit domestic routes. That leaves 7 including one's that are less than 3 years old that are ideal for International flying.

I know the question has probably been raised once before but would it be possible to upgrade the lighter floors to have consistency across the A332 fleet OR is not financially viable to carry out these modifications...

Quoting allrite (Reply 85):

Out of curiosity, does anyone know if the 747s on the SYD-NRT run are likely to upgraded to the A380 interiors by mid October?

The SYD-NRT service receives the odd B744N3 aircraft and with the fleet eventually being reduced to 9 frames without a doubt NRT will receive a product upgrade...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17529 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 84):
We've also been working on the assumption that the ex BA 763's will be replaced 1 for 1 by A332's coming in from JQ. What if they're not? What if QF actually plans to replace that capacity with higher frequency 738 service, since there are plenty of those coming into the domestic fleet, and just the 4 lighter floored A332's? That leaves 7 JQ A332's unaccounted for most of which are fitted for Panasonic IFE like the A380's and upgraded 744's are.

AJ has said that the entire 767 fleet will be retired by the end of 2015, and they have reaffirmed the whole 'widebody shuffle' strategy recently on a couple of occasions (results presentation, strategy presentation etc). They've also stated that domestic capacity is going to grow quite substaintially over the next few years -- this can't happen if they are using incoming 737's (of which the only about 15-16 on order IIRC) to replace 767's on a 3-to-2 basis.

It's unfortunate, really. I'm hoping that the EK A332 rumour materialises, because that's the only way we are going to see international capacity rise before 2016/17.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 87):

I'm predicting that aircraft will to go to SYD-SIN  
Quoting EK413 (Reply 88):
with the fleet eventually being reduced to 9 frames without a doubt NRT will receive a product upgrade...

I doubt the route will continue on with a 744 past the reduction to 9 frames. It's far too inefficient for QF to devote 2 of its few long range, large aircraft to a single regional route. The only way it could be done is if they changed the timings and made the flight a daytime one in one direction.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 17476 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 89):
AJ has said that the entire 767 fleet will be retired by the end of 2015, and they have reaffirmed the whole 'widebody shuffle' strategy recently on a couple of occasions (results presentation, strategy presentation etc). They've also stated that domestic capacity is going to grow quite substaintially over the next few years -- this can't happen if they are using incoming 737's (of which the only about 15-16 on order IIRC) to replace 767's on a 3-to-2 basis.

Again, I'm not so sure we have all the detail. While the strategy presentations etc are show JQ A332's coming back to QF mainline once 787's arrive, there aren't specifics about what exactly they are going to do. Rememer all of these strategy presentations etc were out before the EK announcement so they had to be in the context of domestic growth, fleet replacement etc. I'd not be surprised to see the 767 retirement slip if the IPAD and cabin refurb go as well with customers as QF domestic seem to think it will. If EK, as seems likely, retains its capacity across the Tasman, I'd also hazard a guess that Jetconnect all of a sudden won't need as many 738's. A couple of these could also find their way back to QF mainline domestic. Then there is also the large number of JQ A320's coming into the fleet. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that what QF has said before will be out the door quick smart once the ACCC approves this alliance. Then we'll really see what QF's strategy is for fleet replacement.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 89):
It's unfortunate, really. I'm hoping that the EK A332 rumour materialises, because that's the only way we are going to see international capacity rise before 2016/17.

Again, I think we'll find the strategy has gone somewhat out the door with this EK announcement. I'm going to be more interested, once the ACCC approves this, to see what QF has got to say for itself. Their numbers in relation to 767 retirement by 2015 simply don't tally with their order book for replacement widebodies. So either some of these will be replaced by higher frequency 738 flying, some of the 767's are staying longer than they're saying OR there is another plan to be announced after the alliance is a done deal.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17454 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 90):
Their numbers in relation to 767 retirement by 2015 simply don't tally with their order book for replacement widebodies

I agree, I've always thought that there was something not quite right with that plan. I'm not necessarily saying that there is a conspiracy, but I always thought that they would end up staying to 2016 at the very least. It simply wasn't possible (especially after the 787 cancellation) for QF to dump the 767s without taking a massive hit to domestic capacity.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 17423 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 91):
It simply wasn't possible (especially after the 787 cancellation) for QF to dump the 767s without taking a massive hit to domestic capacity.

Agreed. By my calculation, there are 7 QF 767-338ER's that were delivered after 1996 so by 2016 will be less than 20 years old. That's not too bad for a widebody if it's kept in good condition like QF's are. So I'd not be surprised to see them hang around until after that and be replaced by A330's coming back to domestic when additional 787's join the fleet at some point in 2016 or after. Of course that also figures in no additional orders, or exercise of options for the 738 and no 737-MAX order.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17321 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 90):

I'm going by what AJ said less than three weeks ago at his results presentation. Perhaps we could see something different happen, but I doubt that they would have focused on this part of the strategy quite as heavily as they have been if something was expected to change.

The EK partnership would have been all but a done deal three weeks ago -- if there was a chance that it was going to change things then I doubt that they would have said what they said in such a setting.

(I'm referring to the speech here btw)

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 91):
Quoting Sydscott (Reply 92):

The original plan included the A333 from memory, and made sense (except for the fact that the A333 is not a particularly ideal domestic 767 replacement) -- they then ordered more A332's because the 787 was delayed and that mucked up the figures. Even now, it only doesn't make sense because there aren't enough A332's to cover the replacement of all the 767's (15 A332's, of which 4 are QF international planes, to replace 20 remaining 767's) -- if they want to divert existing A332 capacity to regional flying then they are going to have to keep more than 7 'younger' 767's through till the 789's arrive to free up that capacity.

If their new strategy was to include retaining domestic 767's out to the end of the decade, then those frames better be stripped and fitted with new interiors during this refresh...


User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 17293 times:

Quoting Ben175 (Reply 78):
Quoting Andrensn (Reply 77):
QF launching PER-AKL? + New Qantas chauffeur service

I dont know why they were not doing this flight years ago.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 79):
A333 would be far too big IMO

Why would an A330 be to big for a PER-AKL service concidering NZ uses a 777 into PER now. Would a 738 have the range for PER-AKL ? I sort of agree with you if the 330 is to big then maybe the 763 would be the right aircraft for this flight.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 17121 times:

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 94):
Why would an A330 be to big for a PER-AKL service concidering NZ uses a 777 into PER now. Would a 738 have the range for PER-AKL ? I sort of agree with you if the 330 is to big then maybe the 763 would be the right aircraft for this flight.

If you put my whole paragraph into context instead of cutting out one sentence, you'll see that I mention the fact that capacity will be basically doubled. I highly doubt they could fill the extra 60+ seats the A333 has over the A332 (and at the same time I would expect loads to drop a little on NZ) and the cargo traffic between AKL and PER wouldn't be too high I'd guess either (unless they form some agreement to get cargo linked to DXB).

NZ has only just recently put the 772 onto the route, partially because they're sending the 763 elsewhere. Having a route to yourself goes a long way to helping loads but if/when QF decides on starting it themselves, things might start to change.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17024 times:

Been browsing the database hoping there was a snap shot of the 2 x Khalitta Air B742F which visited SYD this month...

Anyone able to shed light as why the aircraft operated to SYD...?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Bowrey - Sydney Spotters


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Steven Austen



EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16810 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 93):
I'm going by what AJ said less than three weeks ago at his results presentation. Perhaps we could see something different happen, but I doubt that they would have focused on this part of the strategy quite as heavily as they have been if something was expected to change.

The EK partnership would have been all but a done deal three weeks ago -- if there was a chance that it was going to change things then I doubt that they would have said what they said in such a setting.

I know the speech you are referring to and while it is definite, I think that Alan Joyce had to keep to the script until the EK deal was announced. Now that it is, he can really unveil the fleet strategy going forward which, while he says phased retirement of the 767 and they'll all be gone in 2015, those "phases" can easily be changed if market conditions change. I just think there is more to come in all of this because the numbers aren't adding up yet.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 93):
The original plan included the A333 from memory, and made sense (except for the fact that the A333 is not a particularly ideal domestic 767 replacement) -- they then ordered more A332's because the 787 was delayed and that mucked up the figures. Even now, it only doesn't make sense because there aren't enough A332's to cover the replacement of all the 767's (15 A332's, of which 4 are QF international planes, to replace 20 remaining 767's) -- if they want to divert existing A332 capacity to regional flying then they are going to have to keep more than 7 'younger' 767's through till the 789's arrive to free up that capacity.

Don't forget there are already A333's flying domestic on SYD/MEL - PER along with the 744 on SYD-PER. That 744 will need to be replaced by something if QF are getting down to their 9 744 target fleet.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16794 times:
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Quoting Sydscott (Reply 97):
I know the speech you are referring to and while it is definite, I think that Alan Joyce had to keep to the script until the EK deal was announced.

Sure - the deal could have fallen through.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineallrite From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 2057 posts, RR: 4
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16770 times:

Qantas has announced direct flights between Sydney and Gladstone using Q400 aircraft, along with:

QantasLink also announced increased capacity across several key NSW routes:

• Dubbo - QantasLink will upgrade eight return services between Dubbo and Sydney from a 50 seat Q300 aircraft to a 74-seat Q400 aircraft. This will result in 384 additional seats offered on the route each week.
• Port Macquarie - Customers will be able to access an extra 88 seats each week for services between Port Macquarie and Sydney as a result of three Q300 aircraft services being upgraded to a Q400 aircraft.
• Wagga Wagga - On Sundays QantasLink will upgrade one return service from a 50 seat Q300 aircraft to a 74 seat Q400 aircraft.
• Albury - Albury-based customers will also benefit from one return service on Saturday being upgraded from a 50 seat Q300 aircraft to a 74 seat Q400 aircraft.

Media release

Interesting that they don't fly between Sydney and Rockhampton, which is a more major Central Queensland hub, though Virgin do.



Applying insanity to normality
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 16760 times:

Quoting allrite (Reply 99):
Interesting that they don't fly between Sydney and Rockhampton, which is a more major Central Queensland hub, though Virgin do.

ROK maybe be a bigger city but GLT is the centre of Qld's LNG industry meaning that their is a lot of mining/resources related traffic. I wouldn't be in the slightest bit surprised if GLT in more profitable than ROK, although QF must have been spitting fire when DJ came in an rained on their parade!



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16732 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 91):
It simply wasn't possible (especially after the 787 cancellation) for QF to dump the 767s without taking a massive hit to domestic capacity.

I've been thinking more about this and although I still mostly agree, if QF keeps going the way it is in terms of introducing more Q-400 services, more 717 services, more 738 services, then this does add an opportunity to reduce 767 numbers without significantly hitting domestic capacity. Again, this whole fleet equation is complicated.

Quoting mariner (Reply 98):
Sure - the deal could have fallen through.

I actually think it would have been more interesting if it had. Especially fleet wise. Now we have some certainty in knowing what the opportunities could be if QF pulls their finger out.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16788 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 101):
Especially fleet wise. Now we have some certainty in knowing what the opportunities could be if QF pulls their finger out.

It's been mentioned previously and without a doubt I bet EK had an influence in relation to QFs cancellation of the firm order for 35 B787s... I believe there is more to it than meets the eye...
EK have aging A330 fleet reaching retirement, handful of B773s, & not to mention the 10 x A345s which are becoming obsolete... I'm not stating QF will be handed over any of the aircraft but what I am stating is there would be a deal being discussed behind the scenes in relation to QFs aging and tired looking B763 fleet...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16784 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 101):
I actually think it would have been more interesting if it had.

I'm not sure if I'm following your point, but I don't - not even fleet wise. I think the Emirates deal is a game changer.

It seems to me that AJ is making many of the right moves (including the grounding) and I'm interested to see the pieces fall into place - including the fleet.

I think AJ has some powerful forces aligned against him, and I don't just mean the arrogant media blowhards like Ben Sandliands and John Singleton.

But I find it tough to speculate on anything, because I think what is happening may be more interesting than the speculation and I don't see the point in second guessing.

For the first time in a long time, Qantas is scratching my itch.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 16781 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 102):
handful of B773s, & not to mention the 10 x A345s which are becoming obsolete

We won't see 773s or 345s with QF, but that A330 rumour could have something to it. It would allow QF to get the capacity to get back on track, where as 2016 is still a long time away





(but maybe some 345s would be good for SCL and JNB post SAA )



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 16684 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
I'm not sure if I'm following your point, but I don't - not even fleet wise. I think the Emirates deal is a game changer.

Of course, but then I don't think QF had a Plan B other than to keep on trucking and eventually tie in with MH or QR which would be inferior to the current EK network. That's my point.

Quoting mariner (Reply 103):
But I find it tough to speculate on anything, because I think what is happening may be more interesting than the speculation and I don't see the point in second guessing.

All we know is that the current widebody retirements by QF domestic aren't covered by incoming widebodies. Yet. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the fleet plan once the ACCC approves this alliance. Both short term and long term QF needs replacement widebodies for its own fleet and aside from 8 A380's doesn't have anything on firm order. EK, on the other hand, has half a factory of aircraft on order. So it'll be interesting to see any movements between the 2.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 104):
(but maybe some 345s would be good for SCL and JNB post SAA )

GRU!


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 16499 times:

QF has today announced that they are dropping F into JNB from October 1st. The route will revert to 744ER's fitted with the new A380 style seating.

I don't see this as a bad thing. It was an inevitable move, adds capacity to the route and will offer passengers are far superior quality of service. I'm just a little surprised by how quickly the change will be rolled in - perhaps forward F bookings were looking particularly dismal and the airline wanted to add Y capacity for the peak season?

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 97):

We will just have to wait and see what happens. I'd be surprised if QF deviated too much from a plan that they spoke so much about only very recently -- if there was a chance that it was going to be changed then why make such a public commitment/promise to retire the 767's by the end of 2015. They could have just left it open ended, and said that the refurbishment programme will commence in October and the fleet will be gradually retired over the next few years.

The other potential impact on QF's fleet plans is VA. Both airlines are adding a lot of capacity to the domestic market at the moment -- can this be sustained? Is QF cleverly setting themselves up to wind capacity back in 2015/16 once the heat has died down, leaving VA with overcapacity domestically?

Of course, had QF not cancelled their initial 789 order then the A333's could have returned to domestic transcon in 2014/15, solving a lot of these issues at we're discussing...


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6417 posts, RR: 38
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 16474 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 106):
perhaps forward F bookings were looking particularly dismal and the airline wanted to add Y capacity for the peak season?

And soon they can offload F capacity to EK!  



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16455 times:

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 104):
We won't see 773s or 345s with QF, but that A330 rumour could have something to it. It would allow QF to get the capacity to get back on track, where as 2016 is still a long time away

I am well aware the B773 & A345 will not sport the QF color scheme... I was just using the aircraft as an example as to what EK have on offer if QF need to increase their capacity due to the accelerated B744 retirement...

Or EK could lease a few A380s 

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16447 times:
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Quoting EK413 (Reply 108):
I am well aware the B773 & A345 will not sport the QF color scheme

I wish. The A345 would be cheap to acquire, could easy make DFW-SYD and open up SYD-GIG.

Oh, well, pipe dreams.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16386 times:

Quote:
QF has today announced that they are dropping F into JNB from October 1st. The route will revert to 744ER's fitted with the new A380 style seating.

What other route will be dropped to allow this?

Planned use for the 9 upgraded B744s was:

BNE-LAX-BNE (2 aircraft)

SYD-DFW-BNE-SYD (2 aircraft)

SYD-LAX-SYD (2 aircraft)

SYD-SCL-SYD (1 aircraft)

BNE-SIN-BNE (1 aircraft)

Total 8 aircraft with 1 spare.....


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16405 times:

I've been tracking today's QF1 SYD-SIN sector and noticed the flight has gone way off the flight path... Anyone able to shed any light as to why? Thunder storms?

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA1

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinesmi0006 From Australia, joined Jan 2008, 1531 posts, RR: 0
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16384 times:

With regard to JNB, this must signal then end of 744 first class service no? Only LHR and LAX will see F on the A380s. Must be significant cost savings with that in mind.

Quoting vhebb (Reply 110):
What other route will be dropped to allow this?

Planned use for the 9 upgraded B744s was:

BNE-LAX-BNE (2 aircraft)

SYD-DFW-BNE-SYD (2 aircraft)

SYD-LAX-SYD (2 aircraft)

SYD-SCL-SYD (1 aircraft)

BNE-SIN-BNE (1 aircraft)

Total 8 aircraft with 1 spare.....
BNE-SIN-BNE would be my bet. I imagine daily SYD-JNB services require 2 aircraft? One from SYD-BNE and the above mentioned spare?

However what will happen with SYD-NRT? Aren't a few of the weekly SYD-HKG services operated every now and then with a 744? Perhaps if other ports were to commence NRT that would mean an increase of capacity to NRT network wise but a reduction in capacity out of SYD, due to less connections?

[Edited 2012-09-12 02:02:26]

User currently offlineAirvan00 From Australia, joined Oct 2008, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 16329 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 111):

Data error. Flight aware is notorious for that.

[Edited 2012-09-12 02:40:45]

User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1645 posts, RR: 2
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 16279 times:

Quoting Flyingsottsman (Reply 94):
I dont know why they were not doing this flight years ago.

They were, way way back, with a once-weekly 767, but it didn't last.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16148 times:

Quoting smi0006 (Reply 112):
With regard to JNB, this must signal then end of 744 first class service no? Only LHR and LAX will see F on the A380s.

Don't forget that QF127/8 offers First daily, and is operated thrice weekly by a 744. That's likely to end with the overhaul to SIN/HKG next April -- my bet is that F will be dropped in that market as well, and they will switch to a refurbed 744 (to maintain the new product offering).

Quoting vhebb (Reply 110):
Quoting smi0006 (Reply 112):
BNE-SIN-BNE would be my bet. I imagine daily SYD-JNB services require 2 aircraft? One from SYD-BNE and the above mentioned spare?

However what will happen with SYD-NRT? Aren't a few of the weekly SYD-HKG services operated every now and then with a 744? Perhaps if other ports were to commence NRT that would mean an increase of capacity to NRT network wise but a reduction in capacity out of SYD, due to less connections?

Don't forget to factor in that there is 1.5 frames of slack in the A380 fleet, currently covering reconfigs/wing cracking issues. IMO we will see SYD-DFW revert to a daily A380 from April, with the 2 744's released moving to service SYD-SIN/HKG daily (to maintain some level of ability to compete with SQ/CX).

That leaves 2 frames for SYD-JNB, which is only a 28 hour trip out of SYD, so plenty of slack for short term maintenance.

I'm not sure where that leaves SYD-NRT though. Most likely they will continue to operate it with the old style 744's until they leave the fleet, then move to A333's, perhaps supported by services from MEL/BNE or JQ services nonstop from SYD?


User currently offlinevaus77w From Australia, joined Aug 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 16084 times:

Given the QF 767s are being updated in the cabin, potentially to extend their in service life a few more years, what do you think about the possibility of fitting some with winglets? It'd improve efficiency for sectors like East-coast/AKL(if launched) - Perth, SYD-HNL etc.

User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16012 times:

Quoting vaus77w (Reply 116):

I think the 767s should have been fitted with winglets but it is probably too late for that now if they really are serious about 2015. Presuming that it take 12 months for the modifications, most will only be flying for a little over 2 years before they are retired. That probably isn't enough time for QF to recoup the initial investment through fuel savings. It is true that CO fitted their 733s with winglets right before retiring them, but that's because they crunched the numbers and figured it would improve their resale value enough to recoup the capital investment. The QF 767s, however, are more likely to end up in the desert than with other operators.

Incidentally, it was my understanding that APB products result in the greatest savings during climb and decent, with only marginal savings during cruise. If that's true then they could have brought significant cost benefits to SYD-MEL and SYD-BNE.

If QF had known in 2007 that they would be keeping the fleet for almost another decade then I'm sure they would have been fitted with winglets. At that time, though, they expected to have almost 40 787s on property by now...



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineairnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2542 posts, RR: 6
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15933 times:

Quoting vhebb (Reply 110):
BNE-LAX-BNE (2 aircraft)

Does not operate daily with reconfigured aircraft. It also operates with 4-class cosmetic config. (Operates in conjunction with SYD-LAX-SYD (QF107/108)

Quoting vhebb (Reply 110):
BNE-SIN-BNE (1 aircraft)

Also the same, does not operate daily with reconfig aircraft. It is currently 4 times per week, with 4-class cosmetic config.

The only guaranteed 744N aircraft are...

SYD-DFW-BNE-SYD (QF7/8)
SYD-SCL-SYD (QF27/28)

SYD-NRT-SYD
Operates with the 3-class config aircraft, but lately has been subbed for 744N on some days.

SYD-HKG-SYD
Operates with 4-class aircraft including P/C service.

SYD-SIN-FRA-SIN-SYD
Is the other route that operates with the 3-class configuration and old style interior (2001-2008)


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15922 times:

Quoting airnewzealand (Reply 118):
Does not operate daily with reconfigured aircraft

While that is correct at the moment, vhebb in #110 was referring to...

Quoting vhebb (Reply 110):
Planned use for the 9 upgraded B744s



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineairnewzealand From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 2542 posts, RR: 6
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 15920 times:

My apologise, i should of looked closer.

While this was the plan at the beginning of the reconfiguration, it never actually materialised and the plan changed on the delivery of the 4th reconfigured 744N

Kind Regards

[Edited 2012-09-12 14:26:09]

[Edited 2012-09-12 14:26:55]

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 15807 times:

Quoting Airvan00 (Reply 113):

Cheers... I found the diversion odd...

Quoting airnewzealand (Reply 118):

With premium y/c being removed from key Asian routes HKG (except while operated by an A380), SIN, BKK, NRT can we expect the A330 fleet being reconfigured? CX have introduced Premium on the A330 with a 38J28W175Y configuration...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15725 times:

QF execs have been in SIN this week talking up the new Qantas schedule as well as the importance of SIN to the Qantas network.

Found this quote interesting:

Quote:
Qantas executives will outline plans to re-schedule Southeast Asian flights to improve the number of connections by an estimated 25 per cent.

The airline has also said it intends to upgrade services on Airbus A330 flights to Asia to include, among other things, lie-flat seats in business class.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...120912-Y3R6C?OpenDocument&src=hp13

Looks like QF are going to refit the Intl A330 fleet with the A380 product....


User currently offlinevhebb From Australia, joined Apr 2011, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15727 times:

QF execs have been in SIN this week talking up the new Qantas schedule as well as the importance of SIN to the Qantas network.

Found this quote interesting:

Quote:
Qantas executives will outline plans to re-schedule Southeast Asian flights to improve the number of connections by an estimated 25 per cent.

The airline has also said it intends to upgrade services on Airbus A330 flights to Asia to include, among other things, lie-flat seats in business class.
http://www.businessspectator.com.au/...120912-Y3R6C?OpenDocument&src=hp13

Looks like QF are going to refit the Intl A330 fleet with the A380 product....


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3325 posts, RR: 20
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 15062 times:

Of course SIN if important to QF.

If they scaled back ops, it would leave Jetstar Asia exposed, and would also be a free kick to SQ.

As flagged in other threads, I suspect QF will look at turnaorund in SIN between 17:00 and 20:00, to allow same day connections onto the 3K network. From non curfew ports like MEL, BNE and PER, we may also see some overnight flying.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 14875 times:

Interesting news from the IASC today;

http://www.businessday.com.au/busine...ed-for-takeoff-20120917-261nk.html

http://www.iasc.gov.au/determination...isions/files/2012/2012iasc106d.pdf

Qantas and SAA can continue to codeshare until the end of 2014. I thought this one was dead in the water so am quite surprised by the IASC reversing its previous decision.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14775 times:
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Quoting Sydscott (Reply 126):
Qantas and SAA can continue to codeshare until the end of 2014. I thought this one was dead in the water so am quite surprised by the IASC reversing its previous decision.

I found that a despressing read. The words "over regulation" kept frittering in the back of my mind.

I couldn't work out if the IASC was proving its power or justifying its existence.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14773 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 126):

I was just thinking about what was happening with this while reading the other thread -- interesting news.

Some very interesting bits of information in the IASC determination. I was quite surprised by how much capacity SA takes on the SYD-JNB flights (40%), which does quite strongly support the argument that QF would be unable to sustain services without their support. I'm curious as to what the reverse arrangement is (ie how much capacity QF has out of PER), but that's not specified...

TBH I'm not sure what the fuss is about reading the IASC's report. The two airlines pre-purchase capacity from each other and have to market/sell it independently. There's no collaboration on fares/strategy, so they are effective two airlines flying the route but sharing the same plane. It works, and provides a good level of sustainable service between the two countries, and has encouraged growth in the number of visitors in both directions. The fares are not cheap, but that's just the cost of long haul travel (and they're actually pretty comparable to S America in the peak season).


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 14787 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 126):
Interesting news from the IASC today;

http://www.businessday.com.au/busine...ed-for-takeoff-20120917-261nk.html

http://www.iasc.gov.au/determination...isions/files/2012/2012iasc106d.pdf

Qantas and SAA can continue to codeshare until the end of 2014. I thought this one was dead in the water so am quite surprised by the IASC reversing its previous decision.

Interesting news indeed... I guess the QF/EK tie up played a vital part of the decision by the IASC?

I see steam blowing out of JBs ears at the moment... Can VA appeal to the decision?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14495 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 127):
I found that a despressing read. The words "over regulation" kept frittering in the back of my mind.

I couldn't work out if the IASC was proving its power or justifying its existence.

I've found this decision odd to say the least. All the same reasons which the IASC used to reject the proposal last year are still there. On the face of it this seems to be a huge victory for the status quo and bad for competition. Having said that, the IASC is not the ACCC so they could still be thwarted. And it also has to get past the South African Competition regulator.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 128):
was quite surprised by how much capacity SA takes on the SYD-JNB flights (40%), which does quite strongly support the argument that QF would be unable to sustain services without their support. I'm curious as to what the reverse arrangement is (ie how much capacity QF has out of PER), but that's not specified...
Quoting qf002 (Reply 128):
There's no collaboration on fares/strategy, so they are effective two airlines flying the route but sharing the same plane. It works, and provides a good level of sustainable service between the two countries, and has encouraged growth in the number of visitors in both directions.

The point that was raised by the previous IASC decision is that even if the 2 aren't co-operating the fares each other charge are similar. Will I'm not alleging any wrong-doing QF and SAA are a duopoly and even though the market is growing, if you look at the fare levels that existed when Virgin started its brief South African service, you can see that there really isn't genuine competition in the market. Besides which the public statements by both South African and QF have been that if the codeshare wasn't approved, SAA would most probably be the one to leave the route. I find that argument incredulous given VA would be more than happy to code on their flights.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 129):
Interesting news indeed... I guess the QF/EK tie up played a vital part of the decision by the IASC?

I wouldn't have thought so. EK is one of the 3rd party competitors on the route. So if anything an ACCC approval ofthe QF/EK alliance knocks out a potential competitor from the market.

I see steam blowing out of JBs ears at the moment... Can VA appeal to the decision?

VA weren't a party to the proceeding and in fact didn't make a submission. I'd say you will only see them jump when this codeshare deal is forced to end. Frankly I'd have loved to have seen the Federal Court review go ahead because that would have made substantially more information public than what has happened here. It appears that the IASC has done a deal with these 2 and it'll be up to either the ACCC or the South African Competition regulator to say no.


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14472 times:

With Ballieu's trade mission to China, it's rumoured MEL will be first to get non-stop service to CTU or CKG.

Guess we'll find out soon enough.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 14463 times:
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Quoting Sydscott (Reply 130):
Will I'm not alleging any wrong-doing QF and SAA are a duopoly and even though the market is growing, if you look at the fare levels that existed when Virgin started its brief South African service, you can see that there really isn't genuine competition in the market.

I guess my reaction to that is - tough.

If a competitor wants to fly the route offering lower fares, great, burt we saw what happened with Virgin - it lost money.

I don't believe the travelling public has a "right" to lower fares, just because that travelling public - or the regulators - think it is a desirable idea.

It's a long route and expensive to fly. If Qantas/SAA fares get out of hand, the endlessly inventive travelling public will find some other way of getting there - or a competitor will come in and try its luck. The result is probably predictable.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5452 posts, RR: 5
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14260 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 130):
Will I'm not alleging any wrong-doing QF and SAA are a duopoly

I think the issue which IASC has considered is that there simply isn't any potential competition. I highly doubt that VA will be back (at least not until they've figured out where to put the other two engines on the 777) and there isn't any potential competitor at the South African end. Short of NZ doing something radical like AKL-PER-JNB, we have to accept that SAA and QF will forever be the only two airlines on the route.

In light of that it is probably more beneficial to consumers (at both ends of the route) that the agreement continues. It is far from apparent whether the two airlines would be able to support their current operations without each other. If SAA are indeed forced to pull out because PER-JNB is no longer viable how is that good for consumers?

In all honesty I genuinely believe that this cosy duopoly is the least bad outcome

Quoting tayser (Reply 131):

It's great to hear that Australia might finally get flights to Chengdu or Chongqin. I always thought that they were big holes to fill, especially as both have multiple flights to Europe/MidEast.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14169 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
I guess my reaction to that is - tough.

If a competitor wants to fly the route offering lower fares, great, burt we saw what happened with Virgin - it lost money.

I don't believe the travelling public has a "right" to lower fares, just because that travelling public - or the regulators - think it is a desirable idea.

It's a long route and expensive to fly. If Qantas/SAA fares get out of hand, the endlessly inventive travelling public will find some other way of getting there - or a competitor will come in and try its luck. The result is probably predictable.

I agree in principle however, this route is basically a cosy duopoly and aside from Virgin, there simply aren't any potential direct competitors. I say again, all of the reasons the IASC rejected this codeshare are still present in the current decision so I'd have thought the best outcome was to simply say "no" to a continuance and let the chips fall where they may. Frankly I think the idea of SAA pulling out is ridiculous and there is no way QF will give ground in the market without a fight.


Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 133):
It is far from apparent whether the two airlines would be able to support their current operations without each other. If SAA are indeed forced to pull out because PER-JNB is no longer viable how is that good for consumers?

Again, as much of a supporter of QF's as I am, I think it's time for regulators to let the chips fall where they way with this one. If SAA is selling 40% of QF's capacity on the Sydney flight, and the numbers they have presented on growth and the forecasts they've made hold true, then there is no reason why there isn't room for 2 genuine competitors on the route. I think it'll be interesting to see what the South African Commission has to say when this goes before them because they also have to approve the deal and have been a bit more sceptical than the IASC in the past.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25150 posts, RR: 85
Reply 134, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14167 times:
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Quoting Sydscott (Reply 134):
I agree in principle however, this route is basically a cosy duopoly and aside from Virgin, there simply aren't any potential direct competitors.

Which may say a lot about the route - or the out-of-the-way geography.

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 134):
Frankly I think the idea of SAA pulling out is ridiculous and there is no way QF will give ground in the market without a fight.

I dunno. Qantas dropped FRA. But yes, I doubt Qantas would give up JNB without some fight, but it did serve HRE for a while instead and I don't think the South Africa/Perth load factors are spectacular.

Mostly, my feeling is - except in extreme cases, get the regulators out of the markets, then let the chips fall where they may.

As I said, I found the minutiae of the IASC document depressing. I'm a big boy, I don't need so much protection.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 14148 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 126):
Qantas and SAA can continue to codeshare until the end of 2014. I thought this one was dead in the water so am quite surprised by the IASC reversing its previous decision.

I wasn't surprised. IIRC correctly it had been extended from ending Dec 2011 to Dec 2012 for all the same reasons presented in this decision.

I guess the most ideal outcome would be one of the airlines commencing MEL-JNB services, presumably SAA.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 136, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 14118 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 136):
IIRC correctly it had been extended from ending Dec 2011 to Dec 2012 for all the same reasons presented in this decision.

I disagree. I think the reasons the commission presented last year in part 7 of this document still hold true.

http://www.iasc.gov.au/determination...isions/files/2011/2011iascd220.pdf

I agree with Mariner, let the chips fall where they may and lets have some real competition on this route rather than a cosy duopoly.

For those interested, there is also a fight over capacity to Rome occuring. QF have sought renewal of their 600 seats per week of codeshare capacity on HKG-FCO and Virgin has applied for half of the capacity so it can code on SQ and EY flights.

http://www.iasc.gov.au/applications/files/4721.pdf

Potentially QF could lose half of its codeshare capacity into Rome if VA receives a favourable decision. This highlights a potential problem of running a "virtual" airline!


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 14074 times:

To clarify, I accidentally repeated the word "correctly" in reply 136. I wasn't making any statement of support of this move, or otherwise.

I wonder if SQ or someone else would be interested in 5th freedom rights to JNB?

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 134):
Frankly I think the idea of SAA pulling out is ridiculous

Yet it is the official line. Perhaps it is untrue, but wouldn't that be an offence?


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 138, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 14029 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 138):
Yet it is the official line. Perhaps it is untrue, but wouldn't that be an offence?

I suspect it's a posture for this particular route application in order to secure it. The Commission is bound to go with what is submitted and told to it whereas the ACCC submission to the first proceeding is interesting in offering alternative scenario's. So not an untruth but a bit of a threat if they don't get what they want. I'd have thought it was standard in all of these sorts of dealings between Corporations and Governments and the sky rarely falls in if the Corporation doesn't get all that they want. Anyway, we'll see what the South African regulator has to say during their process.


User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13676 times:

What happened to the 744 that use to do the MEL Hong Kong flight that always flew at Midnight, QF have dropped that flight altogether now so where did that 744 go to?

User currently offlineFlyingsottsman From Australia, joined Oct 2010, 546 posts, RR: 0
Reply 140, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13671 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 135):
I guess the most ideal outcome would be one of the airlines commencing MEL-JNB services, presumably SAA.

Once again would love to see that, but VA could not make MEL JNB work and they dropped it so would it work for SAA?
QF have never bothered with a MEL JNB service which means they must think they cant make money on it but could a service by SAA work?


User currently offlineZuluAlpha From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 399 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13590 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 137):
I wonder if SQ or someone else would be interested in 5th freedom rights to JNB?

Maybe NZ ex PER?



CRJ CR7 D10 DHT DH8 DH2 DH3 DH4 EMB ER3 E90 F28 J32 M80 SH6 320 332 333 380 717 732 733 734 738 743 744 752 762 763 772
User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 13531 times:

NZ are soon to have no quads, so would face the same problems as VA. Even from PER there's something of a deviation involved. I'd imagine NZ could get the rights to do it more easily than an SQ though.

User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4955 posts, RR: 5
Reply 143, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13356 times:

Quoting thegeek (Reply 142):
NZ are soon to have no quads, so would face the same problems as VA. Even from PER there's something of a deviation involved. I'd imagine NZ could get the rights to do it more easily than an SQ though.

NZ would be operating under NZ EDTO rules ( not CASA rules) at a current EDTO 240 min. for the 77W and probably to be at 360min in about a year. I believe the RR powered 77E's are expected to get EDTO 360 before too long. Boeing have been working on this for some months. So you could see a 77E doing AKL-PER-JNB sometime down the road.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 13334 times:

It's been posted on here (although I can't vouch for its veracity) that ops like that require the approval of both (or all involved) countries.

User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 145, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 13268 times:

I've been left somewhat baffled based on the ETOPS rulings of various countries... If the manufacture has met all certificate requirements why do such countries (Australia) apply far more strict rules around the operation of twins on long haul routes OR "Extended Range Operations with two-engine airplanes"...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 146, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13232 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 143):
NZ would be operating under NZ EDTO rules ( not CASA rules) at a current EDTO 240 min. for the 77W and probably to be at 360min in about a year

If they were operating on PER-JNB with Australlian origin traffic, I'm sure NZ would be subject to CASA rules of some description. The trick for them would be if CASA would automatically accept the New Zealand rules as set down by the New Zealand Administrator or whether NZ would have to prove the suitability of them on PER-JNB by flying the route.


Quoting EK413 (Reply 145):
If the manufacture has met all certificate requirements why do such countries (Australia) apply far more strict rules around the operation of twins on long haul routes

In general the Carriers that intend to operate the ETOPS routes must be able to prove that they can safely operate the aircraft with whatever ETOPS they are going for. So while an aircraft type may be capable of flying at a particular ETOPS level, not all Carriers will necessarily be able to safely say they can operate it at that level. That's why airlines such as QF and NZ have been at the forefront of these kinds of certifications and why, for example, it took CO a while to get the Polar route up and running for it's EWR - Asia services. So you have a type certification and then a proof that a carrier can actually do it.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 147, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13211 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 143):

Nup -- our CASA has to approve all ops in/out and won't recognise that level of ETOPS/EDTO.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 145):

To be fair to CASA, Australia is a very unique situation. We are surrounded by vast areas of ocean, and there is literally nowhere to stop between Australia and South Africa (and IPC is a significant diversion for flights to S America). Engine failure does still happen, and it's far better to be conservative than for something to happen.


User currently offlinegemuser From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 5638 posts, RR: 6
Reply 148, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 13213 times:

EK413
It is my understanding is that there are NO internationally accepted standards, agreed to within the ICAO process for ETOPS beyond 180 min, therefore such operations fall outside the usual rules which govern such in international civil aviation. So each country is free to agree/disagree with what are basically OEM standards.

Gemuser



DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4906 posts, RR: 4
Reply 149, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 13067 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 146):
Quoting qf002 (Reply 147):
Quoting gemuser (Reply 148):

Thanks for the detailed responses... Would it be safe to say ETOPS regulations have played a key part of an airlines decision when purchasing either twin or quads...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 150, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 12884 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 149):

Perhaps for SA, but there are plenty of other reasons why they have A340's rather than going the 777 route. But LA is moving away from quads over the next decade, to 787's and QF is an airline that was always going to order either the A380 or 748i.

If nobody had any quads then perhaps the situation would be different and CASA would allow a higher rating (perhaps with some additional requirements regarding water based emergency equipment). As it is, the airlines in question are all easily able to operate within the guidelines, so CASA is free to be as conservative as they want.


User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 151, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 150):
But LA is moving away from quads over the next decade, to 787's and QF is an airline that was always going to order either the A380 or 748i.

From what I understand of LA's optimal flight path, their twin engine ops out of SCL to AKL won't need the same ETOPS that a QF flight from SYD does, (or will), because the QF flight takes a more southerly routing than the LA one. So the LA one, by its nature, is closer to potential diversion airports without going as far out of its way as QF would have to if they used a twin for South America.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 4955 posts, RR: 5
Reply 152, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12662 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 147):
Nup -- our CASA has to approve all ops in/out and won't recognise that level of ETOPS/EDTO.

I have been told by an insider in a regulator in a respected jurisdiction that they would have nothing much to say on the EDTO standards of another regulator so long as they are sure that the regulator of the carrier concerned is carrying out its oversight responsibilities with diligence and that they ( in this case CASA) have no specific problems with the carrier concerned. If this is a protocol that is generally accepted by regulators around the world CASA would have to be dissatisfied with the oversight of the New Zealand regulator or with NZ is some respect.


User currently offlinethegeek From Australia, joined Nov 2007, 2638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 153, posted (1 year 11 months 2 weeks ago) and read 12625 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 151):
From what I understand of LA's optimal flight path, their twin engine ops out of SCL to AKL won't need the same ETOPS that a QF flight from SYD does, (or will), because the QF flight takes a more southerly routing than the LA one. So the LA one, by its nature, is closer to potential diversion airports without going as far out of its way as QF would have to if they used a twin for South America.
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=syd-scl...+136w-scl&MS=wls&DU=km&E=180&E=240

The penalty for 240min ETOPS is (approx):
SYD-SCL: 656km
AKL-SCL: 272km

Probably bearable in both cases. Less so with 180min ETOPS.

I'd also add that if IPC is closed the route is impassable with either level of ETOPS. I doubt this would be acceptable to airlines wanting to fly the route. Open to correction though.


User currently offlinetayser From Australia, joined Mar 2008, 1130 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12526 times:

MEL-CTU 3x weekly likely to be announced according to The Age: http://www.theage.com.au/business/ch...of-airline-pie-20120920-268l9.html

User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2968 posts, RR: 2
Reply 155, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 12347 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 151):

Plus the NZ authorities don't seem to be quite as concerned as the Australian ones.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 152):

I doubt that there is much that CASA can do to interfere in ops between two foreign countries anyway. I doubt that LA will be allowed to fly their 787's nonstop to Australia, but they can utilise QF's fleet to do that.