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BMI Or CMI To DC/NYC?  
User currently offlinemattya9 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 121 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

Just made news yesterday, Central Illinois airports BMI and CMI have received grants of $500,000 and $700,000, respectively, to try and add service to one or more of the 3 airports listed in the title.

http://www.pantagraph.com/news/local...0-e637-11e1-9161-001a4bcf887a.html

While I think this is great news for the area I know SPI tried this a couple years ago and it failed miserably. With that being said, I'm not sure if either of these airports will be able to support service like this let alone even get the service in the first place. Thoughts?

OPS 5


"You can do anything once."
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1541 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5172 times:

I'd say that DCA or LGA are both real long shots, but EWR and IAD aren't necessarily out of the question. It just depends on whether $500,000 is a tasy enough deal to bite on. The way I always look at these situations is that if there were serious demand or high yields, they would already be served. So their viability is already somewhat uncertain from that point. But someone may give it a shot; the real question is how long it will last once the subsidy guarantee runs out.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5136 times:

Quoting mattya9 (Thread starter):
With that being said, I'm not sure if either of these airports will be able to support service like this let alone even get the service in the first place. Thoughts?

I think it's probably dependent on the subsidy. If they write somebody a check they can get the service, but I imagine the chances of keeping it in unsubsidized form are slim.

I know Mike Boyd makes a living puffing up small airports, but the idea of an east coast connection giving them access to Europe and Asia is laughable. Last time I checked, Chicago (and Atlanta) had flights to most of the places in Europe and Asia many people want to go anyway.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5124 times:

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 1):
I'd say that DCA or LGA are both real long shots, but EWR and IAD aren't necessarily out of the question. It just depends on whether $500,000 is a tasy enough deal to bite on.

Realistically, though, UA is the only airline (aside from subsidy-hunting F9) who would fly EWR or IAD, and UA doesn't serve either BMI or CMI today. UA once served BMI, but decided to surrender that market and focus on PIA instead. I would have serious doubts about the grant money being enough of a subsidy for them to bite on setting up a new stations in central Illinois.

Generally speaking, the strongest legacy player to these central Illinois airports has been AA, sustaining both ORD and DFW at BMI, CMI, and PIA. In terms of a legacy carrier, I think they'd be the best bet if they could be convinced to take a subsidy to connect one of these cities to LGA.


User currently offlinemattya9 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

What if either one of those airports used the money to attract US to PHL or CLT? Once someone gets to PHL or CLT they pretty much can go, literally, anywhere throughout the northeast and most of the east coast. I know ORD, ATL, and DTW already have service to one or both BMI and CMI but would PHL or CLT might be a better (and closer) option for people wanting to get to the smaller cities in the northeast? Just my 2 cents.

OPS 5

Side question: How does US at PHL/CLT stack up against DL at ATL/JFK in terms of east coast presence? I know DL is the bigger carrier (especially in terms of INTL traffic) but US does pretty well for itself out there from what I know.



"You can do anything once."
User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5002 times:

I can't imagine AA flying BMI/CMI-LGA. DL would probably fit better on that route.


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1606 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4973 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 5):
I can't imagine AA flying BMI/CMI-LGA. DL would probably fit better on that route.

I think DL makes more sense, but I don't think they'd be willing to give up 2-class RJ time (both routes are over 750 miles) to start either route. I don't think it's likely AA will fly these either, but if they're willing to fly CRW and XNA from LGA (though those have different market dynamics, I understand that), they might be willing to try one of the Central Illinois markets on an ERD/ERJ with a subsidy.


User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4968 times:

Has PIA ever tried to do this? Of the 4 airports in central Illinois (SPI, CMI, PIA and BMI) I feel that PIA would be a better fit. More terminal space and a more central location in the state, plus a larger population in the direct vicinity.


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinemattya9 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 7):

PIA definitely has the newer, nicer facility, and larger MSA population, however, BMI has the geographical advantage of the 4 airports. BMI is within an hour drive of PIA, SPI, and CMI.

OPS 5



"You can do anything once."
User currently offlineusxguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1010 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4842 times:

PIA also had Access Air for a little bit...


xx
User currently offlineFlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

I'm pretty sure BMI is targeting New York and/or Washington for business travelers, so UA to EWR and IAD is probably their best bet. Close proximity to PIA might be a problem though. UA might be more likely to fly PIA-EWR and or PIA-IAD.

A few days before F9 announced BMI-DEN, there was talk of service to Washington. Presumably, they had DCA in mind.Don't know if F9 has enough slots, or that they'd use them for BMI-DEN flights.

CMI may have a better shot at convincing UA to start CMI-IAD. That SPI-IAD service failed because flights were routed ORD-SPI-IAD and were plagued by delays (and probably even cancellations). That wouldn't be a problem for just a CMI-IAD route.

G4 has shown some interest in NYC. Someday, they might pick an area facility (EWR?) and start flights to points in the Great Lakes and Plains States. Question is, would G4 pick BMI or PIA?


User currently offlinepoint2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 2740 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4809 times:

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 10):
G4 has shown some interest in NYC.

Other than ISP, what airport in the NYC region is going to have slots for G4?


 


User currently offlineFlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4797 times:

Quoting point2point (Reply 11):
Other than ISP, what airport in the NYC region is going to have slots for G4?

That's the trick. I picked EWR because I figured JFK and LGA would be less likely to have them available.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15715 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4771 times:

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 10):
CMI may have a better shot at convincing UA to start CMI-IAD. That SPI-IAD service failed because flights were routed ORD-SPI-IAD and were plagued by delays (and probably even cancellations). That wouldn't be a problem for just a CMI-IAD route.

I'm not sure that CMI would be workable for any east coast flight. I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers. And for that matter a lot of people from Champaign would probably drive to the Bloomington to fly to the East Coast anyway if a flight at BMI existed.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3288 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4747 times:

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 12):
I picked EWR because I figured JFK and LGA would be less likely to have them available.

Is JFK slot restricted at all hours? B6 was able to launch originally because there was plenty of capacity at JFK outside the late afternoon push to Europe.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers.

BMI is more centrally located for the entire region. Maybe DL will need to shuffle some of their new LGA slots and could plot a daily round trip?

Quoting steex (Reply 3):
UA once served BMI, but decided to surrender that market and focus on PIA instead. I would have serious doubts about the grant money being enough of a subsidy for them to bite on setting up a new stations in central Illinois.

Maybe get Skywest to fly it at-risk in UA colors. UA would be outsourcing a station that small anyway, station cost wouldn't be much.


User currently offlineFlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4700 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 14):
Is JFK slot restricted at all hours? B6 was able to launch originally because there was plenty of capacity at JFK outside the late afternoon push to Europe.

I seem to recall B6 was awarded 75 slots for startup.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 14):
BMI is more centrally located for the entire region. Maybe DL will need to shuffle some of their new LGA slots and could plot a daily round trip?

BMI is more centrally-located but they've failed to become the region's primary commercial airport, mainly because of PIA's much larger population base.

BMI attempted to get NYC or WAS service three times in the late 1990s and early 2000s. First was FL, which would have run a LGA-MLI-BMI-LGA flight (or vice-versa), then Chautauqua Airlines (under the US banner) wanted BMI-DCA/LGA. Finally, BMI talked to the revived Ozark Airlines to fly BMI-DCA. Nothing happened, obviously.

Both BMI and CMI are holding talks with UA about IAD flights. Success will come down to which one puts down more money.


User currently offlineFlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 4690 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
I'm not sure that CMI would be workable for any east coast flight. I'd think that any airline is better off flying to BMI or PIA to better capture business travelers. And for that matter a lot of people from Champaign would probably drive to the Bloomington to fly to the East Coast anyway if a flight at BMI existed.

If UA started CMI-IAD, they could draw pax from BMI, Danville, Rantoul and DEC. No guarantee that'll be enough, and AA will certainly match fares over ORD.


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4661 times:

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
Both BMI and CMI are holding talks with UA about IAD flights. Success will come down to which one puts down more money.

Perhaps IAD-BMI-CMI-IAD might be able to leverage the money which both airports put down?



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1599 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4656 times:
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Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 17):

The BMI-CMI hop would eat up the grant money very quickly.


User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 450 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Does CMI even have the ability to support a route to the likes of DC or NYC? They haven't really been able to sustain any other flights other than the few daily flights to ORD


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlinemattya9 From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4502 times:

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):

For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion. However, BMI has had more passengers use that airport than PIA has for a few years in a row now with less than half the population of the PIA MSA. I'll admit I'm a little biased towards BMI, however, the facts speak for themselves. I've worked at both PIA and BMI, and with the population of the Peoria MSA it's sad they haven't beat out BMI for a while. It just goes to show how much competition there is between the airports in Central Illinois (not to mention competition from airport like MLI and even MDW, ORD, and STL). Will the numbers change for 2012 and will PIA come out on top? Possibly. But if one were to pick an airport between PIA, BMI, SPI, and CMI to be the primary commercial airport I think it's safe to say BMI has led the way for a little while now. My big question is (and has been for a while), if Peoria has such a much larger MSA population how is BMI able to keep up/beat them when it comes to enplanements/passengers using the airport?

Numbers:

Mclean County/BMI MSA = 170,000
PIA MSA = 373,000

2010 Enplanements at BMI: 274,677
2010 Enplanements at PIA: 249,595

2011 Enplanements at BMI: 284,852
2011 Enplanements at PIA: 249,898


OPS 5

NOTE: MSA statistics from wikipedia.com and enplanement statistics from FAA.gov



"You can do anything once."
User currently offlinebobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1599 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4418 times:
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Mattya9:

Answer to all your questions is Air Tran. With no FL. , PIA will probably beat out BMI by more than 25,000 enplanements in 2012 and 50,000 in 2013. G4 and F9 don't begin to replace what BMI has lost.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4300 times:

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 20):
Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):

For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion. However, BMI has had more passengers use that airport than PIA has for a few years in a row now with less than half the population of the PIA MSA. I'll admit I'm a little biased towards BMI, however, the facts speak for themselves. I've worked at both PIA and BMI, and with the population of the Peoria MSA it's sad they haven't beat out BMI for a while. It just goes to show how much competition there is between the airports in Central Illinois (not to mention competition from airport like MLI and even MDW, ORD, and STL). Will the numbers change for 2012 and will PIA come out on top? Possibly. But if one were to pick an airport between PIA, BMI, SPI, and CMI to be the primary commercial airport I think it's safe to say BMI has led the way for a little while now. My big question is (and has been for a while), if Peoria has such a much larger MSA population how is BMI able to keep up/beat them when it comes to enplanements/passengers using the airport?

Numbers:

Mclean County/BMI MSA = 170,000
PIA MSA = 373,000

2010 Enplanements at BMI: 274,677
2010 Enplanements at PIA: 249,595

2011 Enplanements at BMI: 284,852
2011 Enplanements at PIA: 249,898


OPS 5

NOTE: MSA statistics from wikipedia.com and enplanement statistics from FAA.gov


How much of that has been because of Air Tran and Delta fighting over ATL? Now that FL is gone and DL has cut back I bet those BMI #'s plummet in 2012.


User currently offlineFlyPeoria From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 427 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

Quoting mattya9 (Reply 20):
For you to say PIA has become the primary commercial airport in Central Illinois is, obviously, your own opinion.

I didn't say that. I said

Quoting FlyPeoria (Reply 15):
BMI is more centrally-located but they've failed to become the region's primary commercial airport, mainly because of PIA's much larger population base.

In the late 1990s and early 2000s when BMI was the fastest-growing or one of the fastest-growing airports in the country, officials boasted that they'd someday become the region's primary airport and that others (CMI, PIA, SPI, etc.) would maintain "some service." Then PIA adopted free parking, convinced airlines to slash fares and attracted 3x daily ATL flights on DL. BMI beat PIA's numbers 1999-2001 but PIA came out on top again in 2002. Thanks to G4, it did this as well in 2005 and 2008. PIA posted a record for July 2012 - 54,073 passengers, so it may beat BMI this year.

Point is, the gap between PIA and BMI has usually been less than 50-60K passengers, and at least once only a few thousand. In recent years, both airports could boast around 500K or more. While BMI can boast more pax for most years since 1999, it has not been able to "dispatch" PIA and dominate. BMI's central location and PIA's size keep both airports viable while CMI and SPI have generally sputtered.


User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9293 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4186 times:

For DC/LGA service - the population base is there, but the need is not. Central Illinois businesses aren't operationally focused or needing to be focused with a reliance upon New York or Washington D.C.

What's needed for air traffic is what they have now - convenient, reliable hops to larger cities where they can fan out to flights all over the United States, Europe, Asia, Canada, etc. etc.

In traveling back to central Illinois, I've often found full flights, but still pretty reasonable fares. I wouldn't be surprised to see Delta toss in some E-170's if they feel the service is warranted.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
25 MLI717fan : I'll probably make a few enemies out of this... but... I think pumping millions of dollars into all of the central Illinois airports is just an enormo
26 mattya9 : Agreed and I stand corrected on my previous statement. But, again, I wonder how PIA is not able to get more passengers to fly out of their airport wi
27 stlgph : Another challege to the central Illinois airport region remains four airports -- Chicago O'Hare, Chicago Midway, Indianapolis, and St. Louis.
28 LHCVG : This is beginning to sound like a classic case where the O&D is just a bit too diluted among the three mentioned IL airports to make it work.
29 FlyPeoria : Simple: FL vs. DL on the BMI-ATL route (and DL not operating PIA-ATL for a few years). PIA took 30 years to break its 1978 record (550,000) in 2008 (
30 mattya9 : Hypothetically speaking, if BMI were awarded service it would most likely be the better of the two because (if anything) it can draw from the 3 airpo
31 LHCVG : I don't disagree about BMI position; I was merely noting that on the O&D merits, I think it's starting to shape up into a situation where it's of
32 MLI717fan : I think PIA and MLI split a lot of traffic from Central-Western Illinois. The drives to those airports from Macomb, Galesburg, Monmouth, Quincy, and
33 LAXdude1023 : ORD and DFW are the only two cities that serve both BMI and CMI. What about IAD? Maybe a tie with the UA hub could work from BMI.
34 BMI727 : I'm of the opinion that they don't. Even if they do I think it would work better to use one of the cities that is home to a large company, and if an
35 MLI717fan : Back when the economy was good, SPI couldn't support their DC service. There were rumors around that MLI was going to get DC service on UA too, but i
36 IADLHR : It has been a few years since my project in Illinolis finished. I havent been back there since before the new PIA airport was even talked about, let a
37 stlgph : Caterpillar isn't looking to head east though - if anything, their execs are flying west. They have 11 factories in China and they are very long term
38 BMI727 : Universities really don't produce that much traffic. What traffic they do produce is highly seasonal and not especially high yielding. Of course Chic
39 mattya9 : Would BMI or CMI be able to use that grant money to attract service to an airport other than one in the DC/NYC area? Or does it have to be one of tho
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