Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
APA Huge "step" For The Profession.  
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 658 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

It is about time the BK courts recognized the "sweat equity" that labor "invests" in LEGACY companies like AA.

Management should not continue to utilize the process to destroy livelyhoods in the name of being "competitive"
Finally a Judge with something between the legs.


A rare Chapter 11 victory for labor
posted on August 15, 2012 17:06

Fellow Pilots,

As you know, United States Bankruptcy Judge Sean Lane issued a ruling late this afternoon denying AMR management’s motion to reject the Allied Pilots Association-American Airlines Collective Bargaining Agreement, marking a rare Chapter 11 victory for labor.

In his ruling, Judge Lane cited management’s stated intention of furloughing 450 pilots and the sweeping scope changes they proposed as areas where they did not make a sufficiently compelling case.

For many months now, we’ve emphasized that AMR management has overreached in their desire to extract more concessions than are warranted to support their reorganization plan in this bankruptcy. The bankruptcy process is designed to level the playing field with the competition ― not to bury us underneath it. Clearly management went well beyond what is the industry standard for bankruptcy contracts, and the judge recognized this in his decision today.

A large number of APA volunteers and advisers share credit for this favorable turn of events, including the lawyers at APA General Counsel’s office (including Kathy Krieger, Darin Dalmat, Danny Rosenthal, David Dean and Edgar James), APA’s in-house legal team (including Chuck Hairston), Fil Agusti and Joshua Taylor at Steptoe & Johnson, and Andrew Yearley and Ben Tisdell of Lazard. We would also like to thank the following individuals for their help drafting testimony and then testifying as APA’s principal witnesses in the case: Mr. Yearley, Negotiating Committee Chairman FO Neil Roghair, FO Jim Eaton (APA’s representative on the Unsecured Creditors’ Committee), APA Director of Industry Analysis Allison Clark and Technical Analysis and Scheduling Committee Chairman FO Larry Rosselot. Captain Mickey Mellerski, Captain Dave Brown, Captain Bill Boyd, FO Greg Shayman (who was instrumental in drafting APA’s declarations and analyzing management’s declarations), Scope Committee Chairman FO Tim Hamel, FO Tim Daudelin, FO Per Lovfald, FO Dave Durham, and Government Affairs Committee Chairman Captain Bob Coffman also deserve credit for volunteering to help the attorneys work through many of the difficult issues in the case. To these individuals and many others who have worked tirelessly on our behalf during the past several months, well done.

In voting down the tentative agreement, our membership asked the toughest question a labor union could ask in Chapter 11 restructuring: “what is behind that ‘1113 door?’” We now have a near-term answer—a significant setback for management, another set of 1113 court hearings and another round of bargaining.

The elation I feel today is tempered somewhat by my abiding frustration with AMR management for the many misjudgments they have made to deliver us to this juncture. AMR’s Chapter 11 filing was precipitated by AMR management’s actions—and all too often, their inaction—not by a collective bargaining agreement our pilots negotiated in good faith.

Does any right-minded person believe that erasing 60 years’ worth of bargaining history would result in a brighter future for American Airlines? Does anyone think that securing permission from a bankruptcy judge to reject our pilots’ contract constitutes effective employee relations? The answer is, once again, a resounding “no” aimed squarely at AMR management.

Your APA leadership is committed to securing a consensual, industry-standard contract that respects your sacrifices and recognizes your true worth as professionals. If AMR management one day secures the ability to impose arbitrary terms and conditions, they too will have to live with the consequences of their actions. One of those consequences will be to reinforce for all the fact that AMR’s bankruptcy isn’t just financial. Instead, what we’re seeing is a management devoid of constructive solutions to our airline’s problems, which should alarm everyone with a stake in the outcome of American Airlines’ restructuring.

As for how you can help to ensure the necessary course change, maintain professionalism at all times and do not let emotion influence your decisions. Management may be eager to engage in “hostage-taking”—don’t oblige them.

Please note that your APA leadership has dedicated additional resources to ongoing Strike Preparedness Committee operations, beginning with the resumption of Phone Watch.
If you have a question or concern, contact Phone Watch between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m. Central Daylight Time at tel. 817-302-2395. Also, we will be scheduling a new round of Family Awareness meetings across the system. Be on the lookout for meeting announcements and make plans to attend a Family Awareness meeting in your area.

Once again, with your decisive vote against the tentative agreement, you had the courage to ask, “What happens next?” I’m likewise certain that you have the necessary fortitude for the fight that’s certain to come.

So, while management has been denied the opportunity for now to shred our Green Book, I submit that the answer to that question is straightforward: what must happen next is appropriate recognition of our profession and our vital role in the airline’s operation.

In unity,

Keith Wilson
APA President

50 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 9125 times:

Unions and bad management destroy more companies than anything else. Just because one pro-union judge sides with you doesn't a court case make. There will be appeals. Historically these agreements have proven to be a death knell for any airline that is unionized. Thats why once they are gone the airline can survive and people keep their jobs-depsite the union, not because of it.

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9446 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8958 times:

Quoting xdlx (Thread starter):

Yeah Baby!

Congrats to the APA, Its members and Airline employees world wide. (I bet the TWU feels stupid....just sayin)



yep.
User currently onlinewilliam From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1285 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8923 times:

Uh........the Judge gave AA 90% of what they asked for..............but good spin though. I wish the best for AA employees.

User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 8909 times:

As a APA member, I don't view this as any major success. It's more a technicality. The abrogation was denied on only two points and without prejudice. AA has already said it will amend the 1113 and refile tomorrow. In my humble opinion this is only a minor speed bump for AA. There is so much misinformation out there it's ridiculous. I still say AA will prevail, only a week or so later than they hoped. It is still the beginning of the end, all chest thumbing aside.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17513 posts, RR: 45
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8866 times:

Quoting xdlx (Thread starter):
The elation I feel today is tempered somewhat by

...economic reality, as the invisible hand is bound to slap us later, especially if we merge with US.  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5141 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8845 times:

Unions should really be banned in Chapter 11 discussions. Unions are most often the reason of the Chapter 11 situation itself anyway.

User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8789 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):
Unions should really be banned in Chapter 11 discussions. Unions are most often the reason of the Chapter 11 situation itself anyway.

Wow, a very simplistic view at best.....


User currently offlineDashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1528 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8733 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):
Unions should really be banned in Chapter 11 discussions. Unions are most often the reason of the Chapter 11 situation itself anyway.

That's complete horseshit. I can't think of one CH. 11 that wasn't caused by management either making bad decisions or not adopting to changes within the industry.

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 4):

I'm afraid you're right. You will not have the right to strike as a result of an abrogation, but what happens after exiting BK might open some doors. Unintended consequences for management maybe?


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2192 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8691 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 7):
Wow, a very simplistic view at best.....

Very true, but on the other hand blaming it entirely on bad management is also a very simplistic view at best.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 8):
That's complete horseshit. I can't think of one CH. 11 that wasn't caused by management either making bad decisions or not adopting to changes within the industry.

But sometimes they cannot adapt due to roadblocks put up by labor 

I'm not blaming labor for the airlines problems, but a successful airline forms from management and labor working together and making sacrifices. Alternatively an airline's failure lies on the back of both management and labor.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8659 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
Very true, but on the other hand blaming it entirely on bad management is also a very simplistic view at best.

Very true. Nothing is all one sides fault. A marriage succeeds or fails based on the efforts of both participants. Same for a corporation. And with almost 30 years as an AA employee, I have never put the blame entirely on management.


User currently onlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13138 posts, RR: 100
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 8649 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

APA has gotten their monies worth out of their lawyers.

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
a successful airline forms from management and labor working together and making sacrifices. Alternatively an airline's failure lies on the back of both management and labor.

  

I hope AA is able to reorganize. a.net needs a popcorn smilie. These APA vs. AMR court fights will be facinating!

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7622 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8603 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 10):
Very true. Nothing is all one sides fault. A marriage succeeds or fails based on the efforts of both participants. Same for a corporation. And with almost 30 years as an AA employee, I have never put the blame entirely on management.

Welcome to my respected users list. Its refreshing to hear a view point from the pilots that isnt filled with anti-management hatred or that is not completely unrealistic expectations in todays industry.

I really do hope that you guys can come to some sort of agreement that will be more competitive in cost but also not take all labor to the cleaners.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8571 times:

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 12):
Welcome to my respected users list. Its refreshing to hear a view point from the pilots that isnt filled with anti-management hatred or that is not completely unrealistic expectations in todays industry.

Thanks. It's not easy being rational in an irrational world.  


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8528 times:

One thing is for sure..... This management team at AA will need to start showing some due diligence.
New airplanes alone will not make it work.


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8500 times:

Quoting xdlx (Reply 14):
One thing is for sure..... This management team at AA will need to start showing some due diligence.
New airplanes alone will not make it work.

Indeed. Labor COOPERATION and no union stonewalling with responsible management action will be the two keys to success.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8472 times:

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 15):
Indeed. Labor COOPERATION and no union stonewalling with responsible management action will be the two keys to success.

Absolutely correct with that statement. However in today's environment, I would have to say we are ) 0 for 2!


User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1533 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8444 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 10):

We're all pulling for you folks here at Eagle. I don't want to be stuck at a regional my whole life and even if it means a tougher road for the regionals in the short term, ultimately what you're doing over there (and the other majors) will hopefully help the industry in the long term. We wish you all the best and hope that you ultimately get what you want and deserve as professionals.Good luck!


User currently onlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5479 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8440 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 6):
Unions are most often the reason of the Chapter 11 situation itself anyway.

Don't forget that every single CBA was approved by management. If it approved an unworkable CBA, management shares the blame.

People often talk as though unions can just impose terms on the company. It's called collective bargaining for a reason. Management always has a nuclear option that's even more powerful than the union's ability to strike: shut down the company and sell the assets to a new one.

[Edited 2012-08-16 08:26:54]

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 891 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8415 times:

If someone with AA insight can fill me in ... but what I read is that the Judge actually threw out just a few parts of the contract AA wanted but pretty much kept mostly everything else they asked for. It seems AA has to modify a few aspects of the contract to then have the judge approve it ? Am I oversimplfying ... I am just trying to get a balanced viewpoint. Not really seeing how this is a massive win for the unions but more a small victory.

User currently offlineckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5242 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 8382 times:

The APA crowing about winning sounds like someone crowing about a football team forcing a 3 and out late in the game, when they are down 42-7. Yes, you stopped the offense and got the ball back. But you can't score 35 points in 4 minutes.

The judge has told AMR's lawyers what they need to do, in order to get the relief they are seeking, so he will grant the relief with an amended motion.

What the judge did was give the APA a last-minute opportunity to either get a few tweaks to the last tentative agreement, or to simply ask for a chance to revote and put the thumbscrews to the rank and file.

The key is the fact that AMR offered the pilots 13.5% of the stock that will be issued upon exit from Chapter 11. I don't know what ownership interests that TWU workers have, or what is in the proposal that the APFA is voting. But, if APA wants to boot Horton in the future and try to work a deal with US, it only needs 36.6 of the new shares to gain control of the board.

That's a realistic number, in terms of trying to get control of a company. If the TWU has 13.5%, and APFA has 13.5%, that's 40.5% of the stock. Now, you only need on large shareholder to agree with the unions as to terminatiing Horton and his team and/or merger with US.

I've known a lot of people who took lousy deals because of generous stock provisions. They either made insane amounts of money later on the sale of stock, or they were able to influence a company because of stock ownership. Even though the T/A may have been lousy, the ownership provision made it worthwhile.


User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9446 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 15):

The issue it Horton already has a huge bonus check waiting for him once AA leaves this joke of a BK. Him taking that bonus is only going to hurt the already terrible relationship.

Till AMR's board brings in someone who is willing to, at least, have some common sense when dealing with labor(ie not taking large cuts from labor only to take a bonus(stock/cash/or a cookie)) they are going to keep having the mess they have. A smart CEO would have done just what Delta's CEO did during BK.....every time the employees get a cut, he took a cut. (and IIRc same % as the employees.) Hell he was still making over 300K a year but the employees loved him. It is probably a big factor in keeping unions away during BK also. Did it really have any effect on him? no he is set for life. He isn't just a complete idiot (or a$$ hole)

Also he took his retirement and donated it to the Delta Employee Care fund.

Both sides have problems for sure, but the last to CEO's at AMR has made some really bad mistakes. Both have(or will take) large bonus right after employees lost there shorts. (and then can't figure out why they are hated)



yep.
User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 662 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 6993 times:

Quoting ckfred (Reply 20):
I don't know what ownership interests that TWU workers have, or what is in the proposal that the APFA is voting.



APFA equity stake is 3%

AA ORD


User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 223 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6668 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 9):
I'm not blaming labor for the airlines problems, but a successful airline forms from management and labor working together and making sacrifices. Alternatively an airline's failure lies on the back of both management and labor.

Bingo!!!!!! In order to straighten this mess out, both the AA management and the unions need to work together. Abrogating the contracts and/or running to Doug Parker wont fix either parties problems. The reason DL has beome so sucessful is that the management and the unions have begun to build a very stong relationship, to the point that both parties practically get what each other asks for during negotiations. The bankruptcy judge did not deny AA's 1113c motion request because he is siding with the APA, he denied the request out of fear of the consequences for BOTH parties if he approves the request.


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2760 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 6585 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 23):
The bankruptcy judge did not deny AA's 1113c motion request because he is siding with the APA, he denied the request out of fear of the consequences for BOTH parties if he approves the request.

I do wonder if this isn't part of why the motion was denied but left with only a couple items to be changed. The judge may be hoping the two sides can come to a new agreement so that he doesn't end up approving the 1113c and AAs operation going straight down the drain.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
25 NWAESC : In the 1113 process, and judge has to make the decision to allow a debtor's motion to reject the entire CBA, or not. They cannot just pick parts to k
26 FLFlyGuy : And if I know AA, and I do, I would be very surprised if the company shows any interest in negotiating/LBFO/TA now. They know the things they have to
27 NWAESC : That's my guess as well. I know in our (NW) case, the judge wanted to exhaust every last option for an agreement before making a ruling. I've no doub
28 mayor : True.......I'm sure Grinstein was set for life BEFORE he became DL's CEO.
29 PRAirbus : AA is heading to a make it or break it phase. This neverending war between management and labor brings memories of airlines already long gone. The pil
30 ual777 : What AMR management wants is rediculously draconian. They are fully trying to destroy the AA pilot group and are asking for scope relief that NO OTHER
31 Max Q : Very well said and good for the APA.
32 sbworcs : Well in that case if everything bad is managements fault then everything good is too and no-one else should have any claim to success.
33 Max Q : That's mostly pretty true. Management is in charge (hence the name) they must bear the brunt of the blame when they mismanage because they are in cha
34 Post contains images crAAzy : Don't be ridiculous. The writing is on the wall and the pilot group has spoken loud and clear with this last vote - they have no faith in management.
35 norcal : The problem with the whole 1113C process is that management gets as many "do-overs" as they want. If they got a one shot chance at getting the contra
36 DashTrash : I disagree. The rejected TA was a piece of crap that sold another 400+ pilots down the river, created a B scale, and gave up more narrow body flying.
37 flyby519 : The problem isnt management or unions, it is the US Bankruptcy code and the Railway Labor Act. If an airline goes bankrupt then it should go out of bu
38 mayor : So, 60-70K people should be out of work, just because management made some mistakes? If those employees (union or not) work their tails off and do th
39 seabosdca : That was how business worked in the 18th century. It didn't work, because it created huge incentives not to engage in economic activity at all. Fixin
40 TWA85 : Not being ridiculous. Just stating an obvious fact. The judge scolded the unions by acknowledging that there needs to be drastic changes to AA's labo
41 SPREE34 : Absolutely! That this isn't the case, is partly why the industry is where it is today. They move on to other jobs in a healthier industry, or change
42 Post contains images mayor : How many people are unemployed in the U.S., right now because there isn't a "healthier industry" for them to go to or they are unable to "change care
43 flyby519 : Yea, and now instead of having those 18th century workers in cotton fields or factories, they are working for companies like Apple and Google in indu
44 Polot : While the companies would be healthier do to less competition, it is a stretch to say that employees would have more contract leverage. Due to those
45 SonomaFlyer : To do what you suggest is to change the fundamental nature of the relationship between the airline and its employees. So far, Delta seems to be getti
46 catiii : "Steps" can go in many different directions. Some forwards, some sideways, and some backwards. Time will tell which direction this step went in.
47 ikramerica : This idea that non-stakeholders have a say in BK, or that BK shouldn't exist, is really none of their business. It's between the creditors and the com
48 Alias1024 : Spot on. The ability to restructure a business helps protect creditors by providing a potentially more lucrative alternative to liquidation. You thin
49 ckfred : [ On another thread, there is a report that the creditors' committee issued a statement saying that both AA and AE need to enter into contracts that a
50 TWA85 : Agreed. This appeared to be one of the biggest issues the pilots had with the TA. The other two issues were obviously the scope and code-sharing that
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
What Would Be The Logical Next Step For Allegiant posted Sun Nov 13 2005 15:26:06 by Vfw614
Whats The Next Step For Aer Lingus? posted Tue Aug 30 2005 00:31:53 by EI321
End Of The Line For The Learjet 60XR? posted Sat Aug 11 2012 14:26:18 by clickhappy
Have BA Changed Their Iconic 747 For The 777? posted Fri Aug 3 2012 09:55:52 by FlyBA380
AR Used Up 90% Of Subsidies For The Year? posted Fri Aug 3 2012 05:42:06 by 757gb
Extra Flights For The 2012 Olympics posted Sun Jul 8 2012 05:19:10 by ZKSUJ
Winglets For The 777? posted Sat Jun 16 2012 16:24:52 by olddominion727
Concorde For The Diamond Jubilee posted Tue Jun 5 2012 03:00:18 by shilenb
United Leaves OAK For The Last Time Today posted Sun Jun 3 2012 08:14:51 by UA777lover
69 Inch Fan For The MAX posted Thu May 17 2012 17:47:54 by rotating14