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H K Airlines Considering Cancelling A380 Order  
User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 611 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 18745 times:

This doesn't appear to have hit Anet yet.
http://atwonline.com/aircraft-engine...el-a380-order-delay-six-777fs-0816

And does this little snippet in the article mean that their 748i "order" will also be up in the smoke?
'...the spokesperson told AFP that HX would eventually have an “all Airbus” fleet.'


Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 731 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18671 times:

Quoting neutrino (Thread starter):

I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order. They need to learn how to walk first before wanting to jump. I think we must not have high hopes of 787s finding their way into HX fleet any time soon.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18544 times:
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Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order.

It appears not so much that they bit off more than they can chew, but that their stomach has undergone regulatory lap band surgery.

The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department has limited HX's air operator’s certificate to only 20 aircraft until they can demonstrate they have the “necessary equipment, organisation, staffing, maintenance and other arrangements to secure the safe operation of a larger aircraft fleet”. This has forced HX to retire 5 older 737-800s. (Aspire Aviation and http://atwonline.com/international-a...rlines-fleet-expansion-plans-0807)

So until the HKCAD expands HX's AOC, they're not going to be in a position to take any of the Airbus and Boeing equipment they have on firm order nor convert any of their Boeing MoUs into firm orders.

[Edited 2012-08-16 06:37:23]

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4019 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18391 times:
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The warning from the HKCAD prompted a thorough strategic review. Key results are:
-All-Airbus fleet to save on maintenance cost;
-Suspend, with a view to cancel, plans to list the carrier on the Hong Kong stock exchange;
-Take a long, hard look at the A380 order, final decision yet to come.

If the listing doesn't go ahead, HNA, the parent company, will consider merging Hong Kong Airlines and Hainan together.

Source: Financial Times
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/f0e23...5b-00144feab49a.html#axzz23iPzeQcv



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4761 posts, RR: 40
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18345 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
So until the HKCAD expands HX's AOC, they're not going to be in a position to take any of the Airbus and Boeing equipment they have on firm order nor convert any of their Boeing MoUs into firm orders.

It looks that way. hope the issues are sorted out quickly so the new A380's and B748i's can be added to their fleet.

Too bad though that the topic title addresses the A380 only. Again we see that with the A380 you make headlines, with other names you are likely to make much less waves when posting a news message.  

[Edited 2012-08-16 07:03:26]

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18260 times:
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A merger of Hainan and Hong Kong would have some synergies:

It would give Hainan a cargo arm with the best medium (A330-200F) and large (777F) freighters available;
HX operates the same models that HU do, so the current and future fleets would mesh;
HU will eventually need an A340-600 replacement, so the 747-8 could serve that role with the A380 slotting in above


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 18189 times:
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Quoting EPA001 (Reply 4):
Too bad though that the topic title addresses the A380 only.

To be fair, the A380 is the only order that appears at risk for cancellation since the 787 and 747-8 are MoUs. They're not canceling their 777F order, just deferring it. And they will be taking A320s and A330s scheduled for delivery. And the OP did ask if the 747-8 MoU was now dead.

And a.net allows only so many words for a thread title.


User currently offlineEPA001 From Netherlands, joined Sep 2006, 4761 posts, RR: 40
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 18133 times:
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^^ I know, but still it gives the impression that only the A380 order is effected. And there is not really any consideration about cancelling the A380 order. Other circumstances are at present preventing Hong Kong Airlines taking delivery of their ordered A380's.

User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 4019 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17994 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
They're not canceling their 777F order, just deferring it.

From the FT... "Mr Yang said a final decision had not yet been made (re A380) and added that the carrier intended to replace existing Boeing passenger and freight aircraft with Airbus models in order to have an “all-Airbus” fleet to reduce maintenance costs."

Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead, but what else would they do? Be all-Airbus until the next Boeing delivery?



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User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17771 times:
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Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):
Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead, but what else would they do? Be all-Airbus until the next Boeing delivery?

They may very well eventually cancel their 777F order, but at the moment, it is being deferred from 2013+2014 to "after 2015".


User currently offlineJerseyFlyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2007, 641 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17656 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I think we must not have high hopes of 787s finding their way into HX fleet any time soon.

Agree. Much more likely to get A330 / 350 as part of negotiations to cancel A380s.

Current B738s also appear to be being edged out in favour of A320s.


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 17604 times:

After these statements I dont think the Boeing MOU's will ever turn into actual orders.

User currently offlinecloudyapple From Hong Kong, joined Jul 2005, 2454 posts, RR: 10
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 15068 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 3):
If the listing doesn't go ahead, HNA, the parent company, will consider merging Hong Kong Airlines and Hainan together.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 5):

A merger of Hainan and Hong Kong would have some synergies:
It would give Hainan a cargo arm with the best medium (A330-200F) and large (777F) freighters available;
HX operates the same models that HU do, so the current and future fleets would mesh;
HU will eventually need an A340-600 replacement, so the 747-8 could serve that role with the A380 slotting in above

This will also invalidate their AOC. A HK AOC requires the shareholders to have a principal place of business in HK. That's why HNA owns only 45% of HKA and HKE.

Same reason Jetstar HK will unlike get off the ground without a local majority shareholder.



A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1272 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13965 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 6):
They're not canceling their 777F order,
Quoting blueflyer (Reply 8):

Technically, it doesn't say the 777F and 748 are dead,
Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 11):
After these statements I dont think the Boeing MOU's will ever turn into actual orders.

The original article is bad reporting. For one thing, HX is not limited on how many freighters it can operate, only how many passenger planes.

Here's another serious miscue in the article:

Quote:
and replace five 787-800s and two 737-300Fs with A330s and A320s this year.

For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13791 times:
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Quoting cargolex (Reply 13):
For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.

HK's 787's are MoUs, so there is nothing to replace.  

They are retiring five 737-800s, so I expect that was a typo.  


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2204 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 13758 times:

Quoting cargolex (Reply 13):
For the 787s, that would be the most rapid replacement in history, since none have been delivered. For the 737Fs, that would be literally impossible, as a converted 737 freighter has no A320 equivalent.

Well with the 787 they obviously mean they are looking at replacing the 787 order (or rather MoU) with an order for additional A330s instead.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 12706 times:
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Quoting cloudyapple (Reply 12):
This will also invalidate their AOC.

And that affects them how? They can't declare HKG as their home airport? Would they be required to give up or re-bid for gate and/or runway slots?


User currently onlineDeltaB717 From Australia, joined Jun 2012, 493 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10528 times:
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Does the HKCAD / AOC issue have anything to do with cancelling the LGW service, or was that a purely commercial decision?

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 10528 times:
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Quoting DeltaB717 (Reply 17):
Does the HKCAD / AOC issue have anything to do with cancelling the LGW service, or was that a purely commercial decision?

Could be a bit of both. They were losing millions on the route, so by retiring it, they could free that aircraft for another mission.


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 560 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 9710 times:

Wasn't HK supposed to operate the A380s and Hainan operate the 747-8Is? If so, I don't see why the -8I order would be in any trouble as this seems to be specific to HK and not the entire holding company.


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4785 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 8960 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):

Could be a bit of both. They were losing millions on the route, so by retiring it, they could free that aircraft for another mission.

OK, fair enough. But the aircraft (2 or 3 I believe) are configured in an all J layout (with two service levels). LGW never made any sense and everyone knew it would be short lived. But they will now have to stump up quite a fair amount of cash to reconfigure these almost brand new A330-200s into a configuration that makes sense. I can't believe they will make money on these birds in their existing config on HKG-PVG.


User currently offlinepeterinlisbon From Portugal, joined Jan 2006, 528 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 8708 times:

Maybe they should just cancel all of their other orders and get 20 A380s!

User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13152 posts, RR: 100
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 8184 times:
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Quoting Cerecl (Reply 1):
I feel that HX has bitten off more than they could chew with their A380 and rumoured 747-8i order. They need to learn how to walk first before wanting to jump.

That was my thought too.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
The Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department has limited HX's air operator’s certificate to only 20 aircraft

So they need bigger aircraft.  
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 21):
Maybe they should just cancel all of their other orders and get 20 A380s!

Go big or go home!   

 

Ok, I'm kidding. They need to resolve their organizational structure before going back to a growth path.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1761 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7612 times:

IMHO the A380 order should be cancelled regardless. HX does not need that capacity, they need higher frequency instead. Checking the HKG airport departure screen, HX has quite a number of cancellations everyday.

User currently offlineStanleyJ From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 7547 times:

I thought the A380 order was actually for HU, and Hainan was just using HX for a tax dodge?  

User currently offlinecelestar From Singapore, joined Jul 2001, 400 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 7307 times:

Sight track a bit.
Just saw the news. A HK airline A330 experienced mechanical failure while landing at the North runway, blocking the runway for 2 hours of shut down. That runway has re-opened. Not sure if poor weather (typhoon) is related but it reminds me of the CI A330 loss of steering control couple of days ago, that plane also landed in a heavy down pour.
Luck is not on the HK airline side for sure.


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3393 posts, RR: 9
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6936 times:

Quoting StanleyJ (Reply 24):
I thought the A380 order was actually for HU, and Hainan was just using HX for a tax dodge?

I remembered it was something like that too - maybe to get around the "CAASSC" rules where they place all orders centrally and then airlines need to make a case for having some planes.


User currently offlinezeke From Hong Kong, joined Dec 2006, 9111 posts, RR: 75
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6542 times:

Quoting celestar (Reply 25):

Some of the guys in Hkg were saying they had a full evacuation on the runway.

China Airkines did not have a "loss of steering control", someone made that up.



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User currently offlineCX Flyboy From Hong Kong, joined Dec 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 55
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Quoting zeke (Reply 27):
Quoting celestar (Reply 25):

Some of the guys in Hkg were saying they had a full evacuation on the runway.

China Airkines did not have a "loss of steering control", someone made that up.

I saw this one. There was a big cloud of white smoke at relatively low speed just prior to them turning for the first high-speed exit for 07L. Pax exited via airstairs onto buses some time later.


User currently offlineKaiTak747 From Switzerland, joined Aug 2012, 157 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 5803 times:

It will be a shame not seeing an A380 in Hong Kong Airlines livery  
Fingers crossed for the 747-8!


User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8384 posts, RR: 7
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5148 times:
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Hong Kong Airlines ordering the A380 and the 748 I at last years Paris Air Show reminds me of Kingfisher ordering all those planes they ordered 4 years ago. HK airline needs to realize there is only room for one Hong Kong long haul airline, Cathay owns that franchise.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12585 posts, RR: 25
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4547 times:

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 7):
I know, but still it gives the impression that only the A380 order is effected. And there is not really any consideration about cancelling the A380 order.

The A380 gets the attention because it's hard to find someone to back fill the order.

Both the title of the article and the first sentence say that A380 cancellation is being considered, why do you feel otherwise?



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User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2720 posts, RR: 25
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Didn't H K Airlines use some of the production slots which became available because QF deferred the delivery of their remaining A 380? I remember that LH took over two production slots with their recent follow-up order for two airframes but I am not so sure about H K.

User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4182 times:
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Quoting N14AZ (Reply 32):
Didn't H K Airlines use some of the production slots which became available because QF deferred the delivery of their remaining A 380?

There was talk of that - HK Airlines Eyes QF A380 Slots (by solnabo Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)


User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2720 posts, RR: 25
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4106 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 33):
There was talk of that - HK Airlines Eyes QF A380 Slots (by solnabo Nov 4 2011 in Civil Aviation)

Aah, thank's very much for the information. So if really happens what some people are worried about here (and what others are hoping for   ) these ex QF slots would become available again.


User currently offlineneutrino From Singapore, joined May 2012, 611 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4016 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 31):
Both the title of the article and the first sentence say that A380 cancellation is being considered, why do you feel otherwise?

Well, some people will feel testy over something. Its a fact of life.



Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
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