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Would A Daylight EWR-FRA Ever Work?  
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 160 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8996 times:

If anyone were to try this, my guess is that it would be United with a 752. Both cities are major financial centres, as well as Star Alliance hubs, and if timed it correctly, they might be able to pick up a few late connections (LH's South Africa and some Asian services come to mind). Still, it'd mostly have to rely on O&D. Thoughts?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9094 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8992 times:

No. O&D traffic is, unlike London, too small. With the curfew, a delay would nix most onward connections, even rail is not an option that late in the evening.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8941 times:

Not enough O&D, and it's a significantly longer flight that NYC-LHR or NYC-CDG. So it would definitely not work, which would mandate either a much earlier departure from EWR or a much later arrival in FRA, neither of which are good selling points.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8873 times:

Hi

Would it work with regards to times.

BA's JFK-LHR day time service departs at 0800 and arrives at 1945.

Just looking at flight schedules, FRA one hour further from New York than London is. Plus FRA is 6 hours ahead of the EST were as LON is 5. So an 0800 departure from New York would have an arrival time at FRA of 2145. Really too late to connect with much at FRA and with a departure time from New York thats to early for connections there.

So it would only really work for O&D traffic.

A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.

I "guess" that daytime services from NYC to LON only work because there is a lot of O&D traffic and as the flight time is a bit shorter and the time difference is only 5 hrs. There is still a chance of some connecting traffic.

Alex


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9094 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8552 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
Really too late to connect with much at FRA and with a departure time from New York thats to early for connections there.

It would not connect with anything. Due to the curfew, latest block times will be 22h30 for domestic or european flights, 22h00 for intercont departures. The schedules flights arriving 05h00 am upwards connect with anything agive a half working day in the US.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3252 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8529 times:

Of course it would. I can't figure out why the crap they don't have it. Even with a 752, there would be plenty of O&D plus some various connecting traffic.


.......
User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1102 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8435 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 5):
Of course it would. I can't figure out why the crap they don't have it. Even with a 752, there would be plenty of O&D plus some various connecting traffic.

Did you read the other answers?

A 8 AM departure would arrive at 21.30 or even later. There is nearly no connection. Same in EWR at 8 AM.

And I don't see the many O&D biz pax who would like to have a daytime flight. So both LH and UA know why they don't offer a flight like that.


User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 406 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 8327 times:

There are plenty of domestic flights that arrive EWR between 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM. Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work? They would all arrive at their destinations in the early or mid-afternoon with sufficient time to turn around and be back at EWR by 8:00-9:00 PM allowing for late evening connections throughout the US.

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8195 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
No. O&D traffic is, unlike London, too small. With the curfew, a delay would nix most onward connections, even rail is not an option that late in the evening.

It is amazing how everything is now related to the curfew...

The current curfew times are not even a year old. Even with the old terms the possible connections would be very limited. All the reasons why it wasn't viable before the new curfew are still there.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8151 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8071 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
So it would only really work for O&D traffic.
A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.
I "guess" that daytime services from NYC to LON only work because there is a lot of O&D traffic and as the flight time is a bit shorter and the time difference is only 5 hrs. There is still a chance of some connecting traffic.

The major difference is the 1 hour time difference and the O&D volume which allows BA/AA to have a plane RON in NYC. That adds cost to the operation. I have taken the daylight flight BOS-LHR, spent the night at an airport hotel, then caught my connection early the next morning. It was far more restful than the typical red-eye and I liked it. But I was on vacation and didn't care about the time wasted and it doesn't hurt that it is a cheaper option. But most premium passengers wouldn't do that.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
Just looking at flight schedules, FRA one hour further from New York than London is. Plus FRA is 6 hours ahead of the EST were as LON is 5. So an 0800 departure from New York would have an arrival time at FRA of 2145.

FRA has the grand total of 4 departures after 10:30pm  
Without carryon a passenger might have been able to connect to a few more destinations but it's still not enough. Throw in a small delay and you're screwed. To make a daylight flight more viable it would have to depart NYC at around 6-7AM. That may not be viable to LH but UA, maybe. It's not like there aren't any departures that early in the day, so it becomes an issue of demand. As FRA becomes more congested during the typical peak hours, this could happen in the future.


User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1235 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work?

There are not enough people willing to pay sustainable fare levels to make a 2am dep from EWR work. Folks in the US have basically rejected the idea of middle of the night departures. Also, a 2am dep would probably not include very many O&D pax or business pax leaving the change of the flight breaking even or turn a profit to connecting pax (unlikely).



I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7915 times:

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 10):
Folks in the US have basically rejected the idea of middle of the night departures.

Perhaps on the East coast, but given the time zones, quite a few flights to various destinations (Mexico comes to mind) leave after midnight from SFO, LAX, etc...not to mention the redeyes from the West to the East.

Even on the East coast, B6 has a few Caribbean flights that leave around midnight (SDQ, STI, PSE, BQN), and I'm sure UA (formerly CO) had a few of those as well from EWR. The question is, could late-night (read: midnight or later) departures for TATL destinations work for the NYC area? My guess is that the earlier evening flights work best for connections because those flights arrive early enough for customers to make the first connections of the day to other places. Arriving later in the day (say late morning/early afternoon) would probably make the travel experience that much longer if certain (or popular) connections are only available either in the early morning or late evening.



Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 944 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 7779 times:

Also, from a businessperson's point-of-view you're losing a day's business since they're flying.


Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7432 times:

I was actually thinking something like an 0615 departure (just late enough to pick up a few limited connections from west coast redeyes) arriving into FRA at around 2000, which would allow connections throughout Europe as well as some African destinations (JNB, CPT, ET's ADD service).

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 7402 times:
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The profit made on many of these flights come from business travel. Losing a full day of work due to the flight automatically makes this unworkable. Very few airlines do daytime TATL for this reason. BA can make it work in part because the flight time and time change make it workable for some connections if needed. There is also more O&D traffic between New York and London than New York and Frankfurt.

User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2230 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 7314 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
So it would only really work for O&D traffic.

Which makes me ask how much night and day LH traffic comes into EWR? Must be pretty big otherwise there would more O&D traffic...



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3900 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5107 times:
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Is there even a lot of demand for a daytime flight on JFK-LHR, or does it exist because it is the least-bad of three options that BA has to turn around the inbound arriving at 2235, the other two being a 20-hour RON and a midnight departure.

[Edited 2012-08-18 18:12:35]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24629 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.

AF also had a daytime 707 JFK-CDG for a while in the mid-70s. It was dropped when Concorde service started. I used the 707 daytime flight once. It had a special inflight product, including in Y class where the middle seats were left empty. I remember arriving at CDG (then only the current T1) at about 2200. The terminal was almost completely deserted at that time of night.


User currently offlinedelawareusa From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

The one time I did a day time US to Europe flight, the jet lag was much worse then the night flight. I think most people will greatly prefer the night flight.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21420 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4985 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work?

No. You'll never get business travelers on that flight with that departure time - it doesn't work for them either on the EWR end or on the FRA end. And if you have no business travelers, the flight will lose money.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2173 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AF also had a daytime 707 JFK-CDG for a while in the mid-70s. It was dropped when Concorde service started. I used the 707 daytime flight once. It had a special inflight product, including in Y class where the middle seats were left empty. I remember arriving at CDG (then only the current T1) at about 2200. The terminal was almost completely deserted at that time of night.

More recently than that in 2007 AF flew a day time JFK-CDG, however it failed miserably and lasted one season. The problem with the 7:50 AM departure from JFK was that it arrived into CDG at 9PM, after the last European connecting bank.

The year after AF kept the late departure from CDG but retimed the return to a 1AM departure from JFK. This also failed miserably.

So it seems yes you can offer a late departure from Europe (and these seem quite popular), but anything that departs after midnight or early AM has consistently been unprofitable.

The timings were as follows:

AF 005 DEPARTS NEW YORK/JFK 7:50 AM - ARRIVES PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM (daily except Mon.)
AF 004 DEPARTS PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM - ARRIVES NEW YORK/JFK 11:15PM (daily except Sun.)


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9457 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

CDG cannot sustain a daylight JFK flight with NYC-CDG market being twice the size as NYC-FRA O/D. There's basically no chance of FRA. It might be surprising, but IAD-FRA is still a larger market than EWR-FRA or JFK-FRA (when not combining the traffic of the two NYC airports).


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4699 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
Losing a full day of work due to the flight automatically makes this unworkable. Very few airlines do daytime TATL for this reason

Most airlines do daytime transatlantic, east to west.... If losing a day makes them automatically unworkable this would not be the case.

It really comes down to departure and arrival times being unpractical for getting to and from airports together with difficult to impossible transfers and poor aircraft utilization.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2532 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4481 times:

An after-midnight EWR-FRA flight, perhaps.
EWR-FRA daytime, doesn't look like it'd work, even if it could be a flight between major Star Alliance UA and LH hubs.
If UA wants to think out-side the box then they should try B757 EWR-LGW-FRA departing EWR after midnight; return flight departing FRA before the curfew, red-eyes LGW-EWR arriving EWR 0430.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinechopchop767 From Italy, joined Aug 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4295 times:

Perhaps another reason that a day flight from EWR to FRA would be difficult is that the vast majority of LH and UA's departures to FRA arrive at or around 0530 in the morning; which is right before the first connection bank. Thus unless you wanted to sleep at one of the hotels at FRA to make the morning connections, or FRA was your final destination; then it wouldn't make much sense.


this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
25 Richcandy : There must be some demand for this sort of service. Looking at November schedules. BA 178 JFK LHR 0800 2015 AA 142 JFK LHR 0945 2145 VS 18 EWR LHR 08
26 reifel : Although I am not friend of curfew, in this particular case I must admit even before curfew it would't have changed that much. A few years ago it wou
27 Post contains images airbazar : You're always going to lose a full day. The question is, do you want to do it on the eastbound leg or on the westbound leg. Typically you lose it on
28 FlyASAGuy2005 : One thing not looked at is the a/c itself. What do you do with the plane (let's assume it's a US carrier) when it gets to Europe at that time of night
29 adambrau : Not that it was a successful airline in the end, but Pan Am 100 flew daily for years a 747 JFK-LHR and then a 727 onto Frankfurt which arrived pretty
30 PanHAM : I used that flight several times, it got here around 11:30 pm, LH and BA had flights around the same time. Departure LHR was around 9 pm. The last dep
31 knope2001 : EWR-FRA would arrive too late for much (if any) onward connections at Frankfurt. However the same is not true of connection in Newark which could feed
32 NASBWI : I would tend to agree; however, my response was to the comment that late-night departures aren't popular in the US; clearly, they are - it just depen
33 FlyASAGuy2005 : LOL good one. I've taken that flight in question many times myself... Too bad DL doesn't fly to POP anymore.
34 AeroWesty : That's not really correct. A plane could fly all day, run a red-eye from the coast, fly to FRA, overnight, then fly even as far as HNL the next day,
35 Post contains images airbazar : Well that's what happenes when they fly to S.America, S.Africa, even some Asian destinations. The same is true in reverse. BA planes site in BOS/JFK
36 CuriousFlyer : I always wanted to take the day flight to Europe so I could sleep in a real bed. Eventually though for every of my trips I ended up on a redeye becaus
37 knope2001 : I don't think you can get around the fact that a daytime eastbound flight to Europe has a very large, unavoidable layover before it can do anything e
38 AeroWesty : You're really over thinking this. UA already sends two planes over to LHR every day, one from IAD and one from EWR (AA sends 3 across during the day,
39 knope2001 : I'm not overthinking it -- I'm thinking about it at a more detailed level than simply accepting the fact that it exists for a handful of daytime Lond
40 jumpjets : I guess this is because of the now infamous curfew precluding any later departures from LHR.
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