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Would A Daylight EWR-FRA Ever Work?  
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 160 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9010 times:

If anyone were to try this, my guess is that it would be United with a 752. Both cities are major financial centres, as well as Star Alliance hubs, and if timed it correctly, they might be able to pick up a few late connections (LH's South Africa and some Asian services come to mind). Still, it'd mostly have to rely on O&D. Thoughts?

40 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9141 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 9006 times:

No. O&D traffic is, unlike London, too small. With the curfew, a delay would nix most onward connections, even rail is not an option that late in the evening.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21484 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8955 times:

Not enough O&D, and it's a significantly longer flight that NYC-LHR or NYC-CDG. So it would definitely not work, which would mandate either a much earlier departure from EWR or a much later arrival in FRA, neither of which are good selling points.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 8887 times:

Hi

Would it work with regards to times.

BA's JFK-LHR day time service departs at 0800 and arrives at 1945.

Just looking at flight schedules, FRA one hour further from New York than London is. Plus FRA is 6 hours ahead of the EST were as LON is 5. So an 0800 departure from New York would have an arrival time at FRA of 2145. Really too late to connect with much at FRA and with a departure time from New York thats to early for connections there.

So it would only really work for O&D traffic.

A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.

I "guess" that daytime services from NYC to LON only work because there is a lot of O&D traffic and as the flight time is a bit shorter and the time difference is only 5 hrs. There is still a chance of some connecting traffic.

Alex


User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9141 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8566 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
Really too late to connect with much at FRA and with a departure time from New York thats to early for connections there.

It would not connect with anything. Due to the curfew, latest block times will be 22h30 for domestic or european flights, 22h00 for intercont departures. The schedules flights arriving 05h00 am upwards connect with anything agive a half working day in the US.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinejmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3252 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8543 times:

Of course it would. I can't figure out why the crap they don't have it. Even with a 752, there would be plenty of O&D plus some various connecting traffic.


.......
User currently offlinefrat From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 8449 times:

Quoting jmc1975 (Reply 5):
Of course it would. I can't figure out why the crap they don't have it. Even with a 752, there would be plenty of O&D plus some various connecting traffic.

Did you read the other answers?

A 8 AM departure would arrive at 21.30 or even later. There is nearly no connection. Same in EWR at 8 AM.

And I don't see the many O&D biz pax who would like to have a daytime flight. So both LH and UA know why they don't offer a flight like that.


User currently offlineEWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 410 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 8341 times:

There are plenty of domestic flights that arrive EWR between 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM. Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work? They would all arrive at their destinations in the early or mid-afternoon with sufficient time to turn around and be back at EWR by 8:00-9:00 PM allowing for late evening connections throughout the US.

User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8209 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
No. O&D traffic is, unlike London, too small. With the curfew, a delay would nix most onward connections, even rail is not an option that late in the evening.

It is amazing how everything is now related to the curfew...

The current curfew times are not even a year old. Even with the old terms the possible connections would be very limited. All the reasons why it wasn't viable before the new curfew are still there.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8085 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
So it would only really work for O&D traffic.
A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.
I "guess" that daytime services from NYC to LON only work because there is a lot of O&D traffic and as the flight time is a bit shorter and the time difference is only 5 hrs. There is still a chance of some connecting traffic.

The major difference is the 1 hour time difference and the O&D volume which allows BA/AA to have a plane RON in NYC. That adds cost to the operation. I have taken the daylight flight BOS-LHR, spent the night at an airport hotel, then caught my connection early the next morning. It was far more restful than the typical red-eye and I liked it. But I was on vacation and didn't care about the time wasted and it doesn't hurt that it is a cheaper option. But most premium passengers wouldn't do that.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
Just looking at flight schedules, FRA one hour further from New York than London is. Plus FRA is 6 hours ahead of the EST were as LON is 5. So an 0800 departure from New York would have an arrival time at FRA of 2145.

FRA has the grand total of 4 departures after 10:30pm  
Without carryon a passenger might have been able to connect to a few more destinations but it's still not enough. Throw in a small delay and you're screwed. To make a daylight flight more viable it would have to depart NYC at around 6-7AM. That may not be viable to LH but UA, maybe. It's not like there aren't any departures that early in the day, so it becomes an issue of demand. As FRA becomes more congested during the typical peak hours, this could happen in the future.


User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 8086 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work?

There are not enough people willing to pay sustainable fare levels to make a 2am dep from EWR work. Folks in the US have basically rejected the idea of middle of the night departures. Also, a 2am dep would probably not include very many O&D pax or business pax leaving the change of the flight breaking even or turn a profit to connecting pax (unlikely).



I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 7929 times:

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 10):
Folks in the US have basically rejected the idea of middle of the night departures.

Perhaps on the East coast, but given the time zones, quite a few flights to various destinations (Mexico comes to mind) leave after midnight from SFO, LAX, etc...not to mention the redeyes from the West to the East.

Even on the East coast, B6 has a few Caribbean flights that leave around midnight (SDQ, STI, PSE, BQN), and I'm sure UA (formerly CO) had a few of those as well from EWR. The question is, could late-night (read: midnight or later) departures for TATL destinations work for the NYC area? My guess is that the earlier evening flights work best for connections because those flights arrive early enough for customers to make the first connections of the day to other places. Arriving later in the day (say late morning/early afternoon) would probably make the travel experience that much longer if certain (or popular) connections are only available either in the early morning or late evening.



Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlinetymnbalewne From Bermuda, joined Mar 2005, 944 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7793 times:

Also, from a businessperson's point-of-view you're losing a day's business since they're flying.


Dewmanair...begins with Dew
User currently offlineGSP psgr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 160 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7446 times:

I was actually thinking something like an 0615 departure (just late enough to pick up a few limited connections from west coast redeyes) arriving into FRA at around 2000, which would allow connections throughout Europe as well as some African destinations (JNB, CPT, ET's ADD service).

User currently offlineSonomaFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7416 times:
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The profit made on many of these flights come from business travel. Losing a full day of work due to the flight automatically makes this unworkable. Very few airlines do daytime TATL for this reason. BA can make it work in part because the flight time and time change make it workable for some connections if needed. There is also more O&D traffic between New York and London than New York and Frankfurt.

User currently offlinebmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 7328 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
So it would only really work for O&D traffic.

Which makes me ask how much night and day LH traffic comes into EWR? Must be pretty big otherwise there would more O&D traffic...



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3915 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5121 times:
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Is there even a lot of demand for a daytime flight on JFK-LHR, or does it exist because it is the least-bad of three options that BA has to turn around the inbound arriving at 2235, the other two being a 20-hour RON and a midnight departure.

[Edited 2012-08-18 18:12:35]


I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 24760 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5061 times:

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 3):
A few years ago AF tried a day time NYC-CDG service and they also couldn't make it work.

AF also had a daytime 707 JFK-CDG for a while in the mid-70s. It was dropped when Concorde service started. I used the 707 daytime flight once. It had a special inflight product, including in Y class where the middle seats were left empty. I remember arriving at CDG (then only the current T1) at about 2200. The terminal was almost completely deserted at that time of night.


User currently offlinedelawareusa From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

The one time I did a day time US to Europe flight, the jet lag was much worse then the night flight. I think most people will greatly prefer the night flight.

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21484 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4999 times:

Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 7):
Would connecting trans-Atlantic services to major European airports that leave EWR around 2:00 AM work?

No. You'll never get business travelers on that flight with that departure time - it doesn't work for them either on the EWR end or on the FRA end. And if you have no business travelers, the flight will lose money.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinerunway23 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Jan 2005, 2179 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 17):
AF also had a daytime 707 JFK-CDG for a while in the mid-70s. It was dropped when Concorde service started. I used the 707 daytime flight once. It had a special inflight product, including in Y class where the middle seats were left empty. I remember arriving at CDG (then only the current T1) at about 2200. The terminal was almost completely deserted at that time of night.

More recently than that in 2007 AF flew a day time JFK-CDG, however it failed miserably and lasted one season. The problem with the 7:50 AM departure from JFK was that it arrived into CDG at 9PM, after the last European connecting bank.

The year after AF kept the late departure from CDG but retimed the return to a 1AM departure from JFK. This also failed miserably.

So it seems yes you can offer a late departure from Europe (and these seem quite popular), but anything that departs after midnight or early AM has consistently been unprofitable.

The timings were as follows:

AF 005 DEPARTS NEW YORK/JFK 7:50 AM - ARRIVES PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM (daily except Mon.)
AF 004 DEPARTS PARIS/CDG 9:00 PM - ARRIVES NEW YORK/JFK 11:15PM (daily except Sun.)


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9479 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4780 times:

CDG cannot sustain a daylight JFK flight with NYC-CDG market being twice the size as NYC-FRA O/D. There's basically no chance of FRA. It might be surprising, but IAD-FRA is still a larger market than EWR-FRA or JFK-FRA (when not combining the traffic of the two NYC airports).


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4713 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
Losing a full day of work due to the flight automatically makes this unworkable. Very few airlines do daytime TATL for this reason

Most airlines do daytime transatlantic, east to west.... If losing a day makes them automatically unworkable this would not be the case.

It really comes down to departure and arrival times being unpractical for getting to and from airports together with difficult to impossible transfers and poor aircraft utilization.


User currently offline2travel2know2 From Panama, joined Apr 2010, 2559 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4495 times:

An after-midnight EWR-FRA flight, perhaps.
EWR-FRA daytime, doesn't look like it'd work, even if it could be a flight between major Star Alliance UA and LH hubs.
If UA wants to think out-side the box then they should try B757 EWR-LGW-FRA departing EWR after midnight; return flight departing FRA before the curfew, red-eyes LGW-EWR arriving EWR 0430.



I'm not on CM's payroll.
User currently offlinechopchop767 From Italy, joined Aug 2010, 226 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4309 times:

Perhaps another reason that a day flight from EWR to FRA would be difficult is that the vast majority of LH and UA's departures to FRA arrive at or around 0530 in the morning; which is right before the first connection bank. Thus unless you wanted to sleep at one of the hotels at FRA to make the morning connections, or FRA was your final destination; then it wouldn't make much sense.


this year: nap, lgw, fra, dub, fco, add, jib, muc, iad, sea, dca, bos, cdg, ist, bah, prg, ord, hsv, cmn
User currently offlineRichcandy From UK - England, joined Aug 2001, 718 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week ago) and read 3731 times:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):
Is there even a lot of demand for a daytime flight on JFK-LHR, or does it exist because it is the least-bad of three options that BA has to turn around the inbound arriving at 2235, the other two being a 20-hour RON and a midnight departure.

There must be some demand for this sort of service. Looking at November schedules.

BA 178 JFK LHR 0800 2015
AA 142 JFK LHR 0945 2145
VS 18 EWR LHR 0800 2000
UA 18 EWR LHR 0900 2130

There are also daytime services from ORD/BOS & YYZ (maybe more) to London.

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 18):
The one time I did a day time US to Europe flight, the jet lag was much worse then the night flight. I think most people will greatly prefer the night flight.

I had a similar experience. I flew YYZ-LHR on a daytime service. Arrived in London feeling much better that I would had I taken an overnight flight. However got to the hotel and just couldn't sleep, by the time I got to sleep it was morning local time.

Alex


User currently offlinereifel From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 1326 posts, RR: 1
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 8):
It is amazing how everything is now related to the curfew...

The current curfew times are not even a year old. Even with the old terms the possible connections would be very limited. All the reasons why it wasn't viable before the new curfew are still there.

Although I am not friend of curfew, in this particular case I must admit even before curfew it would't have changed that much. A few years ago it wouldn't have made a considerable amount of connections in FRA as well.


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 14):
The profit made on many of these flights come from business travel. Losing a full day of work due to the flight automatically makes this unworkable.

You're always going to lose a full day. The question is, do you want to do it on the eastbound leg or on the westbound leg. Typically you lose it on the westbound leg and that is because of connection banks in Europe not becuase business travelers don't like it. These daytime flights leave Europe for the US in the evening allowing a full day of work in Europe, compared to your typical mid-day departure.

Also, as airlines transform their business classes into flying cubicles with internet access and some may even start allowing cell phone use, you no longer have to lose a wark day when flying.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 16):
Is there even a lot of demand for a daytime flight on JFK-LHR, or does it exist because it is the least-bad of three options that BA has to turn around the inbound arriving at 2235, the other two being a 20-hour RON and a midnight departure.

I'd say demand trumps all.

Quoting Richcandy (Reply 25):
There must be some demand for this sort of service. Looking at November schedules.

BA 178 JFK LHR 0800 2015
AA 142 JFK LHR 0945 2145
VS 18 EWR LHR 0800 2000
UA 18 EWR LHR 0900 2130

There are also daytime services from ORD/BOS & YYZ (maybe more) to London.

  

Quoting delawareusa (Reply 18):
The one time I did a day time US to Europe flight, the jet lag was much worse then the night flight. I think most people will greatly prefer the night flight.

I found it to be the exact opposite. I never had jet lag, at all.


User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3222 times:

One thing not looked at is the a/c itself. What do you do with the plane (let's assume it's a US carrier) when it gets to Europe at that time of night. Let it sit for 10 hours? That's very unpractical and now you'd be required to use 2 a/c to operate the route when you usually only need one for TATL flights. It's very un-economical in almost every form.

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 11):
Even on the East coast, B6 has a few Caribbean flights that leave around midnight (SDQ, STI, PSE, BQN)

Those flights are almost ENTIRELY VFR traffic. Even DL jumped on the late-night departure band wagon this year after B6 had been doing it for years making money off of it. The a/c used would otherwise be a RON at JFK anyway. DL's flight to STI leaves a little after 2100 and gets in close to 0100 then turns around and leave at 2 and gets into JFK in the wee hours of the morning. Just in time to catch the first departure bank at 0700. This is a different demographic though. This particular flight is very popular and if it left STI at 4am I don't think it would matter either. I can't say that this would be true for Europe.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineadambrau From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2962 times:

Not that it was a successful airline in the end, but Pan Am 100 flew daily for years a 747 JFK-LHR and then a 727 onto Frankfurt which arrived pretty late, after 11pm.

User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9141 posts, RR: 29
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2935 times:

I used that flight several times, it got here around 11:30 pm, LH and BA had flights around the same time. Departure LHR was around 9 pm.

The last departure time LHR-FRA is now around 8 pm . Shortens the day in London a bit



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

EWR-FRA would arrive too late for much (if any) onward connections at Frankfurt. However the same is not true of connection in Newark which could feed EWR-FRA. United has flights arriving from a few dozen cities which feed their 9:00am EWR-LHR flight. An EWR-FRA flight leaving Newark at 9:00 would arrive Frankfurt about 22:55. If that needed to be adjusted a earlier to meet FRA curfew, it would preclude some connecting feed but not all.

However it's worth noting that even with all that feed, United's 9:00am EWR-LRH is a 757-200 with 169 seats. If there was tons of demand for the daylight connecting flight from places like Pittsburgh, Raleigh, Buffalo, Indianapolis, etc, you'd think that they'd run a larger aircraft to handle that connecting demand on top of the local EWR-LHR demand. But they don't. And Frankfurt is a smaller local market from the US than London is. Of course they'd be the only daylight option from anyplace in the US to Germany, but that still might not be enough.

The other thing which hurts, as some others have touched on, is that a daylight flight is poor aircraft utilization. The plane essentially flies a single 8-hour flight for the entire day. The classic westbound redeye flight supports much higher utilization -- a single aircraft can do a transatlantic round trip in a single day. If people are paying solid fares for that daytime flight, perhaps it's still worth it in spite of the poor utilization. But if you're filling seats on your daytime flight with a lot of the same tourist fares you're selling on the red-eye flight, it's not worth it.

Personally, I love the daytime eastbound flight to London and I know several who swear by them to minimize jet lag. But in a sense you do burn an entire day flying there and have an extra hotel night in London. For some, especially time-conscious travelers, a daytime eastbound flight isn't a luxury they would pay more for.

So...while I think a daytime EWR-FRA could work in theory, it probably wouldn't realize enough revenue to justify the effort.


User currently offlineNASBWI From Bahamas, joined Feb 2005, 1303 posts, RR: 0
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2594 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 28):
Those flights are almost ENTIRELY VFR traffic. Even DL jumped on the late-night departure band wagon this year after B6 had been doing it for years making money off of it. The a/c used would otherwise be a RON at JFK anyway. DL's flight to STI leaves a little after 2100 and gets in close to 0100 then turns around and leave at 2 and gets into JFK in the wee hours of the morning. Just in time to catch the first departure bank at 0700. This is a different demographic though. This particular flight is very popular and if it left STI at 4am I don't think it would matter either. I can't say that this would be true for Europe.

I would tend to agree; however, my response was to the comment that late-night departures aren't popular in the US; clearly, they are - it just depends on where you're going, and why *wink*



Fierce, Fabulous, and Flawless ;)
User currently offlineFlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 7004 posts, RR: 11
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting NASBWI (Reply 32):
I would tend to agree; however, my response was to the comment that late-night departures aren't popular in the US; clearly, they are - it just depends on where you're going, and why *wink*

LOL good one. I've taken that flight in question many times myself...

Too bad DL doesn't fly to POP anymore.



What gets measured gets done.
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20337 posts, RR: 62
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days ago) and read 2251 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 31):
The other thing which hurts, as some others have touched on, is that a daylight flight is poor aircraft utilization. The plane essentially flies a single 8-hour flight for the entire day.

That's not really correct. A plane could fly all day, run a red-eye from the coast, fly to FRA, overnight, then fly even as far as HNL the next day, even with stops at EWR and somewhere else on the mainland. Whether schedule integrity could be maintained due to weather/possible mechanicals is another issue, but utilization isn't.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 10
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2020 times:

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 28):
One thing not looked at is the a/c itself. What do you do with the plane (let's assume it's a US carrier) when it gets to Europe at that time of night. Let it sit for 10 hours?

Well that's what happenes when they fly to S.America, S.Africa, even some Asian destinations. The same is true in reverse. BA planes site in BOS/JFK for 10 hours every day   Yes, it's poor utilization but nothing unusual.


User currently offlineCuriousFlyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

I always wanted to take the day flight to Europe so I could sleep in a real bed. Eventually though for every of my trips I ended up on a redeye because it turned out I preferred or had to not lose a full day. It is very hard to make those flights work.

I see one possibility to make those flights more acceptable: full, fast internet connection throughout the flight. It would be great on transcons too. Right now it is too unreliable to make the cut but maybe some day...


User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 1859 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 31):
The other thing which hurts, as some others have touched on, is that a daylight flight is poor aircraft utilization. The plane essentially flies a single 8-hour flight for the entire day.

That's not really correct. A plane could fly all day, run a red-eye from the coast, fly to FRA, overnight, then fly even as far as HNL the next day, even with stops at EWR and somewhere else on the mainland. Whether schedule integrity could be maintained due to weather/possible mechanicals is another issue, but utilization isn't.

I don't think you can get around the fact that a daytime eastbound flight to Europe has a very large, unavoidable layover before it can do anything else. Here's an illustration of the difference, plotting out two aircraft. Both aircraft leave Newark and 0700 Monday morning and return to Newark at 2100 Tuesday night. Both do a single round trip to London, one dayline and other redeye.

Plane A does the traditional redeye, and has enough slack left for three EWR-ORD round trips:
Monday
0700 Lv Newark
0830 Ar Chicago
0910 Lv Chicago
1220Ar Newark
1300 Lv Newark
1430 Ar Chicago
1510 Lv Chicago
1830 Ar Newark
2030 Lv Newark

Tuesday
0840 Ar London
1040 Lv London
1340 Ar Newark
1540 Lv Newark
1710 Ar Chicago
1750 Lv Chicago
2100 Ar Newark


Plane B does the daylight flight to London, and has only enough slack for a single round trip to Houston
Monday
0700 Lv Newark
1925 Ar London

Tuesday
0745 Lv London
1110 Ar Newark
1310 Lv Newark
1540 Ar Houston
1620 Lv Houston
2100 Ar Newark

Plane A operates 8 segments and flies 11,246 miles. In the 38 hours between 7:00am Monday and 9:00pm Tuesday, it sits idle on the ground 6 hours and 40 minutes.

Plane B operates 4 segments and flies 9.730 miles. In the 38 hours between 7:00am Monday and 9:00pm Tuesday, it sits idle on the ground 15 hours.

There's just not that much tweaking to be done to make this a lot better. Could you make the morning Newark-London flight leave at 10:00am so that it could operate Cleveland-Newark-London for some added usage? Sure. When plane B comes back from London in the morning, could you have it run EWR-BOS-EWR twice instead of EWR-IAH-EWR once to get in more segments? I suppose so. But the London layover is the issue. By its very nature, the evening flights to Europe are red-eye and have a higher-than-average utilization -- they fly through the night and arrive Europe with a full day ahead of them flying back. And by its very nature, the morning flights to Europe arrive just in time to end the day and sit idle for 10+ hours. There's nothing much to be done about that.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20337 posts, RR: 62
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1831 times:

Quoting knope2001 (Reply 37):
Plane A operates 8 segments and flies 11,246 miles. In the 38 hours between 7:00am Monday and 9:00pm Tuesday, it sits idle on the ground 6 hours and 40 minutes.

Plane B operates 4 segments and flies 9.730 miles. In the 38 hours between 7:00am Monday and 9:00pm Tuesday, it sits idle on the ground 15 hours.

You're really over thinking this. UA already sends two planes over to LHR every day, one from IAD and one from EWR (AA sends 3 across during the day, IIRC). If utilization was as bad as people make it out to be, they wouldn't tie up those planes like that. FRA is only about an hour further.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineknope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2866 posts, RR: 30
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 1696 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
You're really over thinking this. UA already sends two planes over to LHR every day, one from IAD and one from EWR (AA sends 3 across during the day, IIRC). If utilization was as bad as people make it out to be, they wouldn't tie up those planes like that. FRA is only about an hour further.

I'm not overthinking it -- I'm thinking about it at a more detailed level than simply accepting the fact that it exists for a handful of daytime London flights and assuming it will work for a daytime Frankfurt flight.

Utilization is bad on daytime eastbound flights, and if you disagree, I ask you show how that isn't the case.


With the bad aircraft utilization, how come there are any daytime eastbound flghts?

(a) The picture may be different for airlines which hub in Europe. American has nothing to do with a 757 which arrives London at 2000 but let it sit for 10+ hours to head back west in the morning. But if (for example) BA sends overnight flights to Africa or Asia at 2200 out of LHR, a daytime flight from the US could send its aircraft that direction.

(b) There's enough demand at that time of day, especially premium cabin demand, to justify it.

(c) In the NY-LON market, airlines may feel the need to offer a daylight eastbound to be competitive. Delta doesn't, but BA, VA, UA and AA all do.

That some airlines from the US offer daylight flights to London is probably a combination of B and C. Either there's enough revenue from B, or there's fear of too much loss of total revenue from C.

A daytime flight packed with excursion fare tourists doesn't make sense. But if there's enough demand from high-fare premium passengers for a morning flight....or there's the fear that if you can't offer your high-fare premium passengers a morning flight they'll take all their business to the competition....then a daylight flight is probably justified.

The small (and decreasing) number of eastbound daytime transatlantic flights over the years supports the notion that they are only of fair viability to London. The economics of a daylight flight to Frankfurt are likely a couple of notches worse.


User currently offlinejumpjets From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2012, 789 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1657 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 30):
The last departure time LHR-FRA is now around 8 pm . Shortens the day in London a bit

I guess this is because of the now infamous curfew precluding any later departures from LHR.


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