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UA: Responsible For Dogs Death?  
User currently offlineusflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 994 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks ago) and read 6195 times:

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...ights-in-United-s-care-3796305.php

UA says they aren't responsible even though the dog was in the custody of their PetSafe program...


My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSulley From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6080 times:

Seriously, the Houston Chronicle needs to stop. Next thing you know they're going to put up articles when a pax has lost a bag.

You lost the HQ, Houston. Gt over it already.



In thrust we trust!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 6030 times:

Quoting Sulley (Reply 1):
Seriously, the Houston Chronicle needs to stop. Next thing you know they're going to put up articles when a pax has lost a bag.

You lost the HQ, Houston. Gt over it already.

Perhaps YOU need to get over it. Some people look upon their pets as family members. Besides, the "PetSafe" program WAS CO's and was touted as the best in the industry. Perhaps it's not as good as advertised. Somebody dropped the ball on this one. UA says that the death wasn't "transit related", but if it was in UA's care until it went to the vet, there must have been someone at UA that realized something was wrong and determined that a vet should be involved. Anyway, from the time an agent signs the airbill for shipping until the customer signs the airbill at destination, it IS UA's responsibility.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 5978 times:

If the airline was responsible yes......but depends on the circumstances too....could this have been avoided.


Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5952 times:

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 3):
could this have been avoided.

Sure, it could just not have been shipped. I don't know if UA has a temperature limit or not, but in DL's case, for example, most of the temps in the U.S., recently, have been WAY over the limit for carrying animals.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2252 posts, RR: 26
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5941 times:

Tragic, but what about the item of the poor dog getting tangled up in it's own harness ? It could have been slowly choking to death without much noise to alert someone that something was wrong.

Yes the Petsafe program takes pretty darn good care of passenger's pets. Some pets have conniptions and should not be flown around by their owners, the pets do not handle being handled, around strangers, the loud noises of a airline operation or cooped up well at all. The pets are brought in from the ramp to the indoor offices to keep the pets out of the heat, cold or bad weather until it is time to load them onboard the aircraft as close to departure as possible. Have seen some pets that do not take the stress of flying or just even being locked in a crate very well at all.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5895 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 5):
Tragic, but what about the item of the poor dog getting tangled up in it's own harness ? It could have been slowly choking to death without much noise to alert someone that something was wrong.

When we shipped them, we made sure there was no leash attached when the animal was inside the carrier just for that very reason. We usually attached it to the top.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5898 times:

Well now it seems that we have another incident involving UA. I don't believe for an instant that UA is not somewhat to blame. I believe that there are rules surrounding the transportation of pets. Are there not temperatures that disallow pets to be carried in the hold of aircraft and stored at either end? I believe that there was an incident last summer with pets dying while en route to their destination and it was stated that airlines have guidelines about transporting pets during the hot summer months. I did a search for it but as usual the great search function of A-Net did not bring me up what was relevant or even close to what I was looking for.


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineca2ohHP From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 955 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5892 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 2):
Some people look upon their pets as family members.

As an owner of a 12lb. dog (this one was 14lbs.) I would NEVER ship my dog with checked luggage, especially seeing how checked animals are often treated through first-hand experience. However, UA needs to review their program if they are going to make guarantees and protect animals from exposure to excessive heat in cities like IAH.


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5880 times:

Quoting brilondon (Reply 7):

Yes, there have been several incidents and hate to say it, but DL has had their fair share of them. I'm hoping that they've gotten their act together on this. DL has a suspension on animals as checked baggage from May 15 until Sept 15, every year. They can be shipped as cargo but are still subject to temp restrictions (85F, I believe).



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineSulley From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5874 times:

CALTECH - spot on. While this is indeed tragic, it's happened before -- on all carriers. Funny how when we were CO the Chron never published these articles when something like this happened.


In thrust we trust!
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2252 posts, RR: 26
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5862 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 6):
When we shipped them, we made sure there was no leash attached when the animal was inside the carrier just for that very reason. We usually attached it to the top.

Something went horribly wrong if the poor dog became tangled in it's own harness.

Quoting ca2ohHP (Reply 8):
However, UA needs to review their program if they are going to make guarantees and protect animals from exposure to excessive heat in cities like IAH.

The animals are brought in to airconditioned offices until the last possible moment. It may have been the harness choking the poor dog which ended it's life.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5836 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 11):
The animals are brought in to airconditioned offices until the last possible moment. It may have been the harness choking the poor dog which ended it's life.

Someone could have made a mistake and left the dog, planeside, in the heat for a little too long. Mistakes DO happen, but there is no excuse for it. Besides, the vet's diagnosis was heat stroke, not asphyxiation due to choking.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2252 posts, RR: 26
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5795 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 12):
Someone could have made a mistake and left the dog, planeside, in the heat for a little too long. Mistakes DO happen, but there is no excuse for it. Besides, the vet's diagnosis was heat stroke, not asphyxiation due to choking.

Sad tragedy, feel horrible for her loss, but her other two animals, cats of all things , made it ? Cats deal with heat much worse than dogs. Something missing here ? Her two other animals did not expire from heat stroke ?



http://www.chron.com/news/houston-te...ights-in-United-s-care-3796305.php
"United Airlines said in an emailed statement that PetSafe was not responsible for the dog's death.

"We carefully reviewed the details surrounding this incident, and the veterinarian's examination of Ms. Estes' dog showed that the death of the dog was not transit related," the statement said.
Expressing condolences to Estes, the airline said it was reimbursing her the full cost of transporting all three animals.
On the dog's medical record at Animal Emergency Clinic Northeast, the reason given for the visit was: "found collapse(d) in carrier - tangled up in harness, and heat stroke …"
An employee at the emergency clinic, which operates 24/7, said confidentiality rules prevented her from discussing an animal's medical record."



Just as United transports numerous pets, and numerous passengers, some will not make the trip. Are heart attacks the fault of United now too ? Any medical condition ? There was a pit bull doggie that did not take kindly to being flown around. It escaped it's carrier and tore up the airplane.



[Edited 2012-08-18 12:00:05]

[Edited 2012-08-18 12:01:29]


UNITED We Stand
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 13):

Just as United transports numerous pets, and numerous passengers, some will not make the trip. Are heart attacks the fault of United now too ? Any medical condition ?

No, and that's why health papers are required for pets. However, if UA is taking care of the animal as they said they were, there is no reason for the animal to die from heat stroke. Only if UA screwed up and left the animal in the heat, somewhere, should it get heat stroke. I can think of no other reason for this to happen. As I said before, once the UA cargo agent signed for this, it's UA's responsibility until the customer signs for it at destination.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlinespink From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 318 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
No, and that's why health papers are required for pets. However, if UA is taking care of the animal as they said they were, there is no reason for the animal to die from heat stroke. Only if UA screwed up and left the animal in the heat, somewhere, should it get heat stroke. I can think of no other reason for this to happen. As I said before, once the UA cargo agent signed for this, it's UA's responsibility until the customer signs for it at destination.

If the pet was tangled up in its harness then this could of had a significant adverse affect on the dogs natural ability to egress heat which could of resulted in the heat stroke.


User currently offlineCALTECH From Poland, joined May 2007, 2252 posts, RR: 26
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 14):
However, if UA is taking care of the animal as they said they were, there is no reason for the animal to die from heat stroke.

Well the article says "dog's medical record at Animal Emergency Clinic Northeast, the reason given for the visit was: "found collapse(d) in carrier - tangled up in harness, and heat stroke …". No where that I can read does it say the poor dog died of heat stroke. And it is not on the released portion of the Animal Clinic record.

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/heat-stroke-dehydration-dogs

The poor dog flew all the way from Korea, the owner took 40 hours to complete her trip. How much water could the poor dog have consumed, as dehydration and physical exertion can lead to heatstroke. If this poor dog was agitated during the whole trip from Korea to Texas, this could have been the cause of the dog's death.Seems like there are a lot of assumptions and emotions going on. The owner's own account is at odds with the Vet's assessment. What would be good compensation ? One million dollars ? For me, nothing could replace the loss of a pet, but I would not expect a million dollars compensation either. Does it come down to just money again ?


Quoting spink (Reply 15):
If the pet was tangled up in its harness then this could of had a significant adverse affect on the dogs natural ability to egress heat which could of resulted in the heat stroke.

Only one side of the story. PetSafe is a great program. Sad that a dog was lost.



UNITED We Stand
User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 5198 times:

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 16):
Well the article says "dog's medical record at Animal Emergency Clinic Northeast, the reason given for the visit was: "found collapse(d) in carrier - tangled up in harness, and heat stroke …". No where that I can read does it say the poor dog died of heat stroke. And it is not on the released portion of the Animal Clinic record.

Since it also does NOT mention asphyxiation as a cause of death, I would be inclined to say it was probably, if not directly caused by heat stroke (which, apparently, it did have), the heat stroke was probably a contributing factor. If the dog was taken care of as it should, it shouldn't have even gotten heat stroke. Frankly, it probably shouldn't have been shipped at all and no matter how much pleading goes on from the customer, it is up to the agent to make the determination on whether the conditions are right for it to be shipped.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3303 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 5154 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):
I don't know if UA has a temperature limit or not, but in DL's case, for example, most of the temps in the U.S., recently, have been WAY over the limit for carrying animals

I thought all airlines were required to limit animal transporting at a certain temp or above, origin and destination. Or does each airline have it's own ability to set it's own requirements? Are there laws or rules set forth by the government?



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 661 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting mayor (Reply 4):

Bottom line.... UA has failed to adopt the good practices of CO. And as another poster did earlier in the month they have now won "from FIRST to WORST" moniker.


User currently onlinePanAm1971 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 403 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Airlines need to be more upfront with customers that shipping an animal entails risk... and no matter how many precautions are undertaken, those risks can result in the injury or death of the animal.

User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 20):
Airlines need to be more upfront with customers that shipping an animal entails risk... and no matter how many precautions are undertaken, those risks can result in the injury or death of the animal.

You'd be surprised at the number of customers that know what the risks are, know full well that something could happen to their pet if the rules aren't followed, but try to get the airline to accept the animal, anyway. It's actually worse in the winter, when they have to have a written ok from a vet that the animals can handle low temperatures. Actually, the airlines have let this go on and so they are receiving the results of it. If agents stuck to their guns, nicely, and not give in, EVERYONE would be better off.

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 18):
I thought all airlines were required to limit animal transporting at a certain temp or above, origin and destination. Or does each airline have it's own ability to set it's own requirements? Are there laws or rules set forth by the government?

Well, that's my mistake......I believe the Dept. of Agriculture enforces the limits as set forth in the Animal Welfare Act.

Quoting xdlx (Reply 19):
Bottom line.... UA has failed to adopt the good practices of CO.

Well, I assumed that UA had adopted CO's "PetSafe" program, lock, stock and barrel. No matter, because they still have to comply with the same rules as everyone else. Sounds to me like the agent in Korea was the first to make a mistake, by accepting the animal in the first place, considering the temps at any connecting points and destination. 85F is the upper limit, I believe and that was the nighttime temp at many locations in the U.S. for a good portion of the summer.



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
User currently offlineEWRamp From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3609 times:

United Airlines never takes responsibility for anything. I guess they feel they are never wrong.

User currently onlineboilerla From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 367 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3586 times:

This is just the Houston press being pissed off at UA and venting more steam. Every airline has had animals die in their care. Anyone remember deltareallysucks and "Delta Killed my Kitty"?

Quoting xdlx (Reply 19):
Bottom line.... UA has failed to adopt the good practices of CO. And as another poster did earlier in the month they have now won "from FIRST to WORST" moniker.

In fact, before the merger, CO lead the pack in doggie deaths:
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/traveli...ths/story?id=11198807#.UDELnxqe7OQ


User currently offlinemayor From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 10480 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3524 times:

Quoting boilerla (Reply 23):

In fact, before the merger, CO lead the pack in doggie deaths:
http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/traveli...ths/story?id=11198807#.UDELnxqe7OQ

Now, I didn't know that. With all the bad publicity that DL has gotten for this problem over the last few years, I just assumed that DL was leading the pack. Amazing how DL (especially on A.net) gets lambasted for doing so poorly while this is the FIRST account I've seen on here, concerning CO.

Wonder what that figure would have been if they lumped CO & UA together?



"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
25 Post contains images CALTECH : United has adopted the PetSafe program from Continental. Again At least a 40 hour trip. Poor dog, to be subjected to that. During those 5 years, 58 d
26 mayor : I understand how it might have been a 40 hour trip, if it was all the way to the destination, but since the dog died in IAH, I don't see how the dog
27 gigneil : The dog died in Houston after flying from Korea, yes? NS
28 mayor : Yes, it did. It was supposed to go from IAH to North Carolina (not sure which airport).
29 KBUF : CLT, according to the article.
30 DocLightning : A dog is a living, breathing creature that can feel pain and suffering as it dies of heat exhaustion. It is also a very loved part of a family. A bag
31 Post contains images mayor : Yes, and I missed the reference, at least twice
32 CALTECH : No child was lost. That is so factually incorrect.
33 mayor : Theoretically, she WAS lost. As far as the system is concerned, she WAS lost. If UA had no idea where she was until they were prodded, she WAS lost.
34 PITingres : Ok, how about "UA lost track of an unaccompanied child"? GIven that the whole point of UM procedures is to NOT lose track of them, I think your "corr
35 AirframeAS : In my ramp class, they showed this same picture in training. Not surprised. I think the story went was after the flight, they tracked down the owners
36 Post contains images CALTECH : I think you just contradicted yourself there. She was lost in her parents minds, and that's tough for a parent. There was always someone who knew whe
37 mayor : You do realize people ship pets for other reasons, too, don't you? It isn't just always people going on vacation or relocating. I'd say that at least
38 AirframeAS : It was their dog. They bought the kennel and is responsible for the kennel, not the company. In this case, the dog chewed out of its kennel and then
39 mayor : Once the agent accepts the shipment, by signing for it, the airline then becomes responsible for it, even if the kennel is not right or the door isn'
40 AirframeAS : Lets agree to disagree, because that is not what was presented in the new hire training at UA. They explicitly told us that..... The owners are respo
41 mayor : Oh, I agree with that.......the customer must comply with the regulations......if they don't, you don't sign for it. Whether they comply or not, you
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