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Qantas Pilots In Cockpit Fight At DFW  
User currently offlinesennabestever From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 32 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 23478 times:

I've never heard of anything like this before! I guess they couldn't agree on data input and it resulted in the flight not departing until the next day!

http://www.theage.com.au/travel/trav...r-pilots-clash-20120821-24joq.html

27 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 621 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 23335 times:

I was under the impression that QF carries two complete cockpit crews on ultra long flights like this. Am I incorrect?

[Edited 2012-08-21 07:19:50]

User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6341 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 23307 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 1):
I was under the impression that QF carries two complete cockpit crews on ultra long flights like this. Am I incorrect?

They usually have 3-4 pilots on board, yes.


User currently offlinedrgmobile From Canada, joined Aug 2006, 655 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 23271 times:

I never worry about going to hell because you just need to pick up the paper and on any given day there seems to be half a dozen "flights from hell" I can take to get out.

User currently offlineN14AZ From Germany, joined Feb 2007, 2757 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 23182 times:

Would be nice to have the recordings from the cockpit voice recorder.

At least I hope they fought like the animal shown on the tail fin of their plane. It's an obligation for QF staff, isn't it?  


User currently onlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12513 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 21226 times:

This is a huge embarassment for QF and reading through some posts on another website, it seems that the captain was a "difficult" individual (that is, shall we say, a euphemism). The SO has a job to do and it's his role to speak up and say something if he feels it's not being done right; that would be drilled into him during his CRM training and not to speak up when he should would be a dereliction of duty.

The airline will be looking at this very carefully and given that the captain in question had allegedly been invited to meet his Chief Pilot and Flight Ops management on a few occasions, he would be likely to have some explaining to do.


User currently offlineAirCalSNA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 356 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 21119 times:

That story sounds completely overblown. Aussie news must be hard up for news.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20978 times:

I think "fight" in the thread subject is too strong. Other news items I've seen refer to an "argument" or similar.

User currently offlinetxjim From United States of America, joined May 2008, 246 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 20805 times:

The article stated that Qantas did not have sufficient staff to handle the passanger's accommodations. Would they not approach their Oneworld partner to assist or is that not the norm?

User currently offlinedirtyfrankd From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 191 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 20126 times:

This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read...

User currently offlineplanereality From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 103 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17989 times:

"It was just one cock up after the other."
...the ideal euphmism I suppose



Andiamo!
User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7686 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17844 times:

IMO, if this ended in a punch up, then one or both of them will be looking for a new job.

In most jobs, this sort of thing is gross misconduct, leading to a escorted trip to the front door.


User currently onlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 5706 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17755 times:

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
Would they not approach their Oneworld partner to assist or is that not the norm?

No, only their handling agent. Given that this was after midnight and most (all?) international departures would have left I imagine that the handling agent would only have a skeleton staff left at the airport.

At DFW I'd guess that QF have only a handful of in-house employees other than a Station Manager. While it's regrettable that there weren't more people, that isn't strictly QF's fault. After all no self-respecting outsource provider would employ a person more than they have to!

Even if they had asked (i.e. paid a fortune for) AA to step in and help, the AA staff in DFW probably have never been trained on QF's computer system since they aren't the handling provider. Maybe at LAX they could have called for reinforcements given that AA do QF's handling in T4 so there are AAgents who know QF.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3630 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17702 times:

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 9):
This has to be one of the most poorly written articles I have ever read...

I agree, although it's easy to see why. There's no "there" there. The headline is about a cockpit "clash", but there's really very little actual info about that in the article itself, and it probably was a relatively minor part of all this, so the writer/editor has to pump the article up with fluff.

This is basically a long article about a flight that was delayed, and therefore the pilots exceeded their hours.

Whether anything happened in the cockpit at all is barely even suggested, except that there's apparently an investigation. But why? What was this "clash" about, what caused it, who noticed it and what did they hear? There are no details, which leads me to think it probably either didn't happen, or it was a fairly routine and relatively minor disagreement about something or other that maybe took a few extra minutes to figure out.

Most of the problems on this flight were obviously related to delays caused by the weather.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently onlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 16194 times:

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 6):
That story sounds completely overblown. Aussie news must be hard up for news.

It was serious enough for them to both be stood down. Because they could not agree on something as basic as data to be entered into the computer, the flight had to be cancelled. This has cost the airline money and caused a major inconvenience to passengers, at a time when QANTAS is fighitng for it's life. The share price has crashed, customers are deserting it and competitors are expanding into it's market share.


User currently offlinelasairlinerenth From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13595 times:

Well, I sure hope Qantas isn't falling apart at the seams. I will be flying them (and Jetstar) for the very first time from LAX to Perth and back this November/December. Looking forward to it.

User currently offlinefbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3713 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 13472 times:

Quoting txjim (Reply 8):
The article stated that Qantas did not have sufficient staff to handle the passanger's accommodations

I had heard the DFW loads on the QF flights weren't great but sheesh! How many staff does it take to handle one person?!  



"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently onlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 846 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12819 times:

Quoting lasairlinerenth (Reply 15):
Well, I sure hope Qantas isn't falling apart at the seams. I will be flying them (and Jetstar) for the very first time from LAX to Perth and back this November/December. Looking forward to it.

Not falling apart at the seams at all, it is a professionaly run airline, everything is maintained well, even if parts a getting a little shabby now. The Jetstar Airbii are in good condition. Just not seeing a bright future at the moment, so every fault is a big story.

In this case, though, if the pilots can't even get off the ground as a team, you really can't have them up there flying in that state.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6348 posts, RR: 31
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12527 times:
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My question, and forgive me if it´s already been answered, is how is it that the passengers, or anybody external to QF found out about the arguments going on in the cockpit?

User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 11865 times:

Am I missing something?

I'm usually the first to find fault with Qantas, but it sounds here as if a cautious captain did not want to take risks with patient safety in adverse weather, which resulted in a delay because of duty times.

That's good, isn't it?

I don't want to fly in dangerous conditions, or on an airline which breaches duty limits.


User currently offlinevincewy From Taiwan, joined Oct 2005, 767 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 11585 times:

Blown out of proportion, didn't this happen on TK's A340 in the 90s too (IST-JFK)? Yeah, 2 pilots lashed out at each other during the flight.

User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2111 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9074 times:

I'm surprised this doesn't happen more often actually. There has always been a good number of senior captains who've developed pretty lax standards, have little to lose career-wise, and aren't going to follow company procedures to the letter. Historically the captain was God, and what he said was done. Nowadays co-pilots are instructed to stand their own ground, to give their opinion about safety-relevant issues, and to intervene if they believe the aircraft isn't operated safely. I can see how that leads to conflicts in the cockpit.

That said, what a terrible article. I can write an article like that about any single flight.

"The landing did seem a bit hard to me", said Flora W., 42, who was travelling with her two children. "Also my son didn't get his meal choice. It's just been a huge mess". The news struck the airline only years after yet another hard landing in which even overhead bins had opened, according to eye witnesses. "This airline is totally mismanaged", said a business insider who declined to be named. Etc. etc.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineIndependence76 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 9001 times:

Looking back on the BEA accident in the 1960's, what is the probability this was a Management vs. Union argument?

Considering QF8 is their longest ULH route, is it probable they got into a heated discussion over shifts and Union agreements?



"In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes." - John Ruskin
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 8055 times:

You wonder sometimes if it's not time to put the concept of the newspaper to bed. Do we ever get an accurate story these days?

In these times of blogs and social media the pilots could just post their side of the story for us to make up our own mind about what really happened. It would be far more entertaining.

We also need to move away from the boss is king attitude. It leads to errors in the cockpit,misdiagnosis in hospitals, mismanagement of companies etc.


User currently offlineweebie From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 202 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

Rule Number 1 for non Australians.

Don't believe a word from the tabloids.

I don't believe that article for a second.


25 LHRXXXLHR : As far as I can tell from the quoted article and others, we can't say for sure that this was a "the boss is king" situation. Anyone care to take a sta
26 HAWK21M : Sounds more like a Disagreement....
27 grimey : Maybe they were arguing over who gets the last pair of XL first class pyjamas.
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