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Is The 777-200 A "Gas Guzzler"? Air India Thinks So.   
User currently offlineglobalflyer777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32749 times:

According to a recent statement made by an unnamed Air India official, the airlines 777-200's are views as being "fuel guzzlers" better off being grounded than operated.

http://www.livemint.com/2012/08/2119...I-may-sell-five-Boeing-777-je.html

I've heard similar statements made about the older versions of aircraft such as the 747 & MD11, but never about the 777 family.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

159 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 674 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32696 times:

My opinion is that when the fox can't reach the berry, he'll say its sour. If you have to sell your wares to look for some kind of profit, it not the machine that faulty, its the operator. They knew what they were buying and furthermore its a 777-LR. Lets see what kind of efficiency they would have gotten from a A340-500 or -600?!?         

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12570 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32635 times:
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Quoting globalflyer777 (Thread starter):
the airlines 777-200's are views as being "fuel guzzlers" better off being grounded than operated.

Well, I guess any plane flying a route unprofitably could be described as a gas guzzler - if it consumed a lot less fuel the route might be profitable.  

However, given that AI's 787s could fly that route (with smaller payload, but significantly lower fuel burn), personally I see this as part of AI's never ending 787 compensation/purchase strategy.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32612 times:
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Quoting rotating14 (Reply 1):
My opinion is that when the fox can't reach the berry, he'll say its sour. If you have to sell your wares to look for some kind of profit, it not the machine that faulty, its the operator. They knew what they were buying and furthermore its a 777-LR. Lets see what kind of efficiency they would have gotten from a A340-500 or -600?!?

I agree, you order the 777, it's for a reason! Those engines are HUGE and THIRSTY...however for what it does and it's capabilities it's a great acft. This just seems (IMO) another "stint" for Air India to publicly complain that something else is causing them to lose money (a LOT of finger pointing, again)...it's time they start looking within the company/managment.


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 977 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32549 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 2):
However, given that AI's 787s could fly that route (with smaller payload, but significantly lower fuel burn), personally I see this as part of AI's never ending 787 compensation/purchase strategy.

strongly agree, this unnamed "Air India official" is after compensation of some kind for something.....

According to Lufthansa Cargo, the 777F burns 17% less fuel than the MD-11... the 777 is many things, but a "guz guzzler" is not..


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10747 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32566 times:

The 777LR isnt exactly a fuel saver. And time moves on. The efficient aircraft of yesterday are the gas guzzlers of today, and the 787 surely beats the 777.

User currently offlinexlc From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 35 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 32548 times:

Maybe DL will buy them...   

User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32433 times:
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Quoting xlc (Reply 6):
Maybe DL will buy them...

That would be great, however I don't think DL wants to spend the $$ to re-configure them and pay for it all. I am going out on a limb here and say that AI's upkeep might not be the greatest if they are constantly complaining about every $ they have to spend, and that may be why no one else wants them.

135Mech


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5518 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32433 times:

Great sales strategy. "Here, won't you buy these aircraft? They're gas guzzlers!"   

This is an airline with its collective head in a very unnatural place. They say the 787 is their lifeline but then delay the aircraft repeatedly. Then they try to sell 777s to another airline by complaining about their performance.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10747 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32368 times:

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 8):
Then they try to sell 777s to another airline by complaining about their performance.

They try to offload them since about two years. No one is interested (maybe because they ARE gas guzzlers?). No wonder they are a bit unsatisfied. Not very professional nevertheless.


User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11835 posts, RR: 33
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32337 times:

Flying the 777-200LR on non ULH routes and asking yourself why the jet isn't performing as expected? That must be a joke.

Quote:
maybe because they ARE gas guzzlers?

Or maybe there are not enough profitable ULH routes?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31055 posts, RR: 87
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32270 times:
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Supposedly the 777-200LR is more efficient than the 777-200ER beyond about 2000nm thanks to the aero tweaks and the fact that cruise thrust is well below T-O thrust.  

That being said, you buy a 777-200LR because you want to fly your maximum structural payload a long-distance without worry of adverse winds aloft forcing a tech stop.


User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4499 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32224 times:

This was an interesting quote from the article:

“Even if we can’t sell them it’s better to ground them as we will save more money by doing so. They are fuel guzzlers. We understand they are being flown mostly by rich Middle East barons these days.

How many -LRs are flown by these "barons?"


User currently offlineseabosdca From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 5518 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32192 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):
How many -LRs are flown by these "barons?"

Quite a few... if rich corporations such as Emirates and Qatar Airways, which are eating AI's lunch, qualify as "barons"  


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32192 times:
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IMHO Air India is eroding any remaining credibility they may have left in the marketplace, although the statement was made by an unnamed source. Just my   


When you are doing stuff that nobody has done before, there is no manual – Kevin McCloud (Grand Designs)
User currently offlineskipness1E From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2007, 3263 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32132 times:

" We understand they are being flown mostly by rich Middle East barons these days.” India a superpower? Really?
Barons like Qatar, Emirates....er Delta, Air Canada? Even PIA made it work with the LR despite having to stop in Manchester along the way! It seems to be a cultural thing in India / Pakistan not to take any reponsibility for poor decision making. Worse so than the West, and that's saying something! Did they order them accidentally? Some junior clerk let loose with a credit card maybe? That'll be it....

"Air India is not alone in pulling out the long-haul Boeing 777 -200 LR aircraft. American Airlines, which had been offering Chicago-Delhi non-stop flights on a Boeing 777-200 aircraft since 2005, stopped its only service to India earlier this year" Yes, with the B777-200LRs that they have never flown or in any way ordered.

[Edited 2012-08-21 13:16:12]

User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10747 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32110 times:

Quoting N62NA (Reply 12):
How many -LRs are flown by these "barons?"

As for VVIP-jets, none as much as I know. The 777 is a flop with VVIPs, even the A345 sold more.
I think they mean the oil-rich countries´ airlines. Emirates, Qatar, they operate a good number of 777LRs built. But also neighbour PIA, and I havent heard complaints from thats side.


User currently offlinetp1040 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 208 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32103 times:

I thought they disliked the 787? Next thing you know, they will be complaining about a Cessna 182.

User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19786 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 32041 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 4):
According to Lufthansa Cargo, the 777F burns 17% less fuel than the MD-11... the 777 is many things, but a "guz guzzler" is not..

Well, yes. The MD-11 was introduced in 1989 (1990?). The 777 was introduced in 1995. It also has one fewer engine.

As compared to, say, the A330, the 777 does burn more fuel. It also packs more oomph in the engines and lifts more passengers and cargo for a longer distance.

Quoting na (Reply 16):
As for VVIP-jets, none as much as I know. The 777 is a flop with VVIPs, even the A345 sold more.

Aren't there a few VIP 77W's? It makes sense that the 77L would be a flop with VVIP's. A 77W in a low-capacity configuration can probably have some extra tanks installed that would give it pretty much global range. The 77L in low-capacity form can fly MORE than halfway around the world (as was demonstrated by its record-setting endurance test). Nobody needs that kind of range. Ever. Not even in a thousand years. After all, if you fly more than halfway around the world, you went the wrong way!


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9661 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31922 times:

I wonder if this could be related to the pilot scope on the 777, so now they are criticizing the 777. In reality Air India can’t make money on ultra long haul, so they don’t need 8 ultra long haul airplanes.

In reality, the 772LR burns about 5% more fuel than the 772ER when operating the same route below the 772ER MTOW. I wouldn’t call that gas guzzler, but the A332, 787 and 77W probably have better CASM when being operated on regional routes.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineKarelXWB From Netherlands, joined Jul 2012, 11835 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31903 times:

Quote:
As compared to, say, the A330, the 777 does burn more fuel. It also packs more oomph in the engines and lifts more passengers and cargo for a longer distance.

I thought the 77W burns less fuel as compared to the A330. Or do you mean the 777-200(ER/LR)?



Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity. And I'm not sure about the universe.
User currently offlineWarmNuts From United States of America, joined May 2006, 94 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31855 times:

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 15):
It seems to be a cultural thing in India / Pakistan not to take any reponsibility for poor decision making.
Winner Winner, Chicken Dinner!

While India is my 'second home,' I wrestled with this aspect of the culture more often than not during my time conducting business in India. It seemed there was always a subordinate or someone in a lessor station to whom the metaphorical buck could - and would - be passed.


User currently offlinetheginge From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 1132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31770 times:

Surely Air India's problems are deeper rooted than a few 777's that are not quite perhaps the right aircraft for them!

User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4983 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31778 times:

Air India puts 238 seats on a B77L. Delta and Air Canada put upwards of 270 seats. Fuel burn is meaningless if one can't count the revenue potential to offset fuel consumption.

Oh yeah - and why does Air India need a 3 class product on their 77Ls?


User currently offlineMCOflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 8677 posts, RR: 16
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 31689 times:

I am calling pure BS on this one. IF DL and AC can make it work, then there is no reason that AI can not. My suggestion to AI's management is to install a two class interior configuration featuring J class and Y class with about 270 seats like DL. They should be able to turn a profit.

KH



Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
25 aeroblogger : The 77L's seat costs are astronomical compared to the 787, which is replacing it. AI finds itself in the extremely strange position where it has to ju
26 n471wn : AI is simply so screwed up that they do not know fact from fiction-----there is not one and I repeat NOT ONE 777-200 for sale. It is a shame that any
27 art : The article says: "Air India has been trying to lease the aircraft, which cost just over $291 million apiece, with little success even as losses on fl
28 usxguy : Now don't give them any ideas... they may start trying to strap passengers to the wings. Then they'll complain about the payload.
29 Stitch : Boeing has sold one 777-200LR VIP and one 777-300ER VIP. Has Airbus actually sold an A340-500 as an ACJ? Or have they all been conversions of former
30 KDAYflyer : The only thing I can say to that is: Consider the source of the comment. We are talking about AI here, who still cant get it together on the 787 deli
31 garpd : And there we have the crux of the matter. They are using a large, powerful jet on routings which are no where near what it was designed for. If a 787
32 higherflyer : If they configured the planes as if they were Indian buses or trains, they would be printing money!
33 777way : Why didnt AI opt for the 772ER?
34 Post contains images BasilFawlty : Government of Algeria: 1 A345 Qatar Amiri Flight: 1 A345 State of Kuwait: 2 A345 Kingdom of Jordan: 1 A346 (rumours are going that the delivery has b
35 BasilFawlty : Yes, or just like EK (but without F) with 3-4-3 in Y.
36 RussianJet : A very simple concept I know, but still made my brain hurt for a nanosecond.
37 Stitch : AI did lease three 777-200ERs from UA in the late 2000's. AI purchased the 777-300ER, 777-200LR and 787-8 in the same order, so I would not be surpri
38 DarkSnowyNight : It's saying a lot that this is also an airline (the only one in existence in fact) that already had to scrap out a 777, not as resulting from an inci
39 AirPacific747 : Turkmenistan owns a VVIP 77L. I saw it with my own eyes in Kiev a few months ago. Used as a presidential aircraft AFAIK.
40 jfk777 : AI has First Clas because as a government owned airline ministers and their families like to travel First Class to London and New York, for FREE. Whe
41 BMI727 : I get the idea that if Air India could power their planes with just air, they would still lose money.
42 DeltaB717 : Couldn't have said THAT any better myself!!
43 skipness1E : Because it would fit the mission they were aiming at a little better perhaps? It's still being built, Asiana just got a top up B772.
44 amritpal : If I have a choice between Air India and Jet Airways to fly on, I will choose Jet Airways hands down. Much more professional crew (cabin), great servi
45 aeroblogger : commonality.
46 Trucker : Sorry, couldn't help it. Unless you have a tailwind. And there you have it. They wouldn't be the first airline to have trouble because everyone or at
47 SEPilot : If you are considering either one as a private airplane I doubt that price is a very big issue.
48 Roseflyer : United fits 8-40-220 vs 8-35-195 on Air India. Both offer first class suites, and fully flat business, yet United also has economy plus. AI wants to
49 DocLightning : The 77W is bigger and oomphier, and it absolutely does burn more than the A330. Whether it does per ASM, that I don't know, but generally speaking, l
50 bestwestern : Its because AI is well known for its quality premium products, faultless onboard service, and fantastic dining experience. Because of this, they have
51 BlueLine : So how much compensation is AI going to demand from Boeing for duping them into purchasing such inefficient aircraft?
52 brilondon : As stated above AI would think that a Cessna 182 was a gas guzzler and I don't think that AI is going to have the guts to tell it like it is and I wou
53 Post contains images Stitch : You haven't seen their 787-8 Business Class color scheme, have you.
54 xdlx : Send them some IL96 see how they like them.......!
55 jetblast : I'd say it's probably because I sincerely doubt AI has kept any maintenance records, and no one wants an airplane without all the books....
56 jfk777 : Asiana can fly a 777-200ER from Seoul to Europe and The USA even JFK nonstop. Air India would find a 777-200ER challeneged to make JFK from India. AI
57 bestwestern : Its an AI issue and a market issue. India does not have the premium yield for non stop flights to the US. Who is left flying non stop?
58 Post contains images lightsaber : There is AI's fundamental problem. ULH requires a premium RASM and AI is not in that market. Until they improve their soft product, it doesn't matter
59 infiniti329 : LOL It was joke about DL
60 aeroblogger : Why on earth would you think that? AI most certainly has kept maintenance records as per DGCA regulations. In fact, AI operates some of the best main
61 Post contains images Stitch : The rest of the operators of 777-200LRs are not trying to offload their airframes and four more are on order, so I expect that guzzling gas is not a
62 DocLightning : You know what? I love planes. I love takeoffs and landings. I *HATE* flying. Not fear or anything like that. It's the security, the waiting around, t
63 aerorobnz : I have read online somethere the 77L described in an article as "a flying fuel tank" by current NZ CEO - using as a reason they had not been ordered b
64 Post contains images aeroblogger : I think that's a great description. If only AI had realized this before they ordered....
65 Mark2fly1034 : Im pretty sure all planes are "Gas Guzzlers" I dont see any of them getting 40mpg. Maybe it is time for a Hybrid 777
66 Post contains links aeroblogger : In 2000, the average commercial aircraft got 36.4 passenger miles per gallon, and that certainly has improved in the last decade.... The 777 probably
67 TrentXWB : When I read the heading of the post, I thought that it was about the 77A, but then I realized that AI never had them. Calling 77L a gas guzzler is a b
68 Stitch : The 777-200LR can tank about 8 tons | 10,000 liters more fuel with the standard tank configuration (same as the 777-300ER and 777 Freighter). I notic
69 bestwestern : At $4m a week, no 787 is going to solve that problem. This is a yield problem first and foremost. I keep saying it - AI needs to become a High Densit
70 neutronstar73 : Ummm yeah...okay right. The 777's engines are huge and thirsty...yep. That's why it was killed in the market by the A340, 747 and A330. Sure killed o
71 timpdx : Hmm, I did not know AI offered 34" in Y. I actually would totally choose them for a trip I am thinking of taking based on that little tidbit alone. Ma
72 Post contains images ghifty : The GE90's ARE huge and thirsty compared to the other lower thrust engines. It's the fact that there's only two of them mounted on a 777 that makes t
73 Post contains images PHX787 : What the heck is AI doing here? Always complaining about Boeing.... I think they're trying too hard to get free money. yeah they're pretty much done.
74 JAAlbert : Of course, Delta could just require that Air India refurbish the planes like it made SW do with the 717s! It seems to me that you gotta look at the m
75 ghifty : Probably is true (over specific routes, naturally). It's one thing to say an engine is "huge and thirsty".. but in the end the only thing that matter
76 pvjin : Yeah Air India always complaining about something, I wonder when they will stop it. Indian government should stop backing them, maybe then they would
77 parapente : This is marketing theory being played out in reality.It was accepted that the only way to counter the new middle eastern giant hubs with their A380's
78 zkojq : 77L operators from the mid-east: Emirates - 10 PIA - 2 Qatar Airlines - 9 Ethiopian has five, but they aren't from the middle east. Total civilian Bo
79 Post contains images CXB77L : A bad tradesman blames his tools, and that is precisely what AI are doing. The 777-200LR uses less fuel and carries more payload than the A340-500, a
80 Post contains images EPA001 : At present the whole picture that AI is showing looks messy and quite uncoordinated. I think they need a very, very serious management and culture ch
81 777way : I doubt erither of the two factors appplies to PIA, I think thry were suckered into buying them, maybe they can get the 748 too this way even if its
82 CXB77L : As for as I know, ET has selected that option. I'm not aware of any other airlines that have, although there could be others.
83 Post contains images EPA001 : Thanks for your quick reply. .
84 zkojq : Depends where you define the middle-east as. Good point.
85 ghifty : Does AI mean "baron" in the "king" context or the "industrialist" context?? What is it considered to be then? I was taught that the Middle East consis
86 ebj1248650 : You have to wonder if Air India management has begun to give thought to just being quiet for a while. Their international reputation, with passengers
87 sunrisevalley : I think this is being a little disingenuous. A 77L could haul as much as a 48t payload ORD-AKL for a fuel burn of ~110t. I suspect this burn is not m
88 Burkhard : I tried to find out where AI flies the 77L. Dubai-Mumbai what a waste, an A333 would do this much better. Mumbai-JFK yes that is a route for the 77L,
89 HAWK21M : Firstly I'd never believe an undisclosed official statement.......unless its officially stated and having data provided to substantiate the same.....
90 Post contains links CXB77L : No it does not. http://boeingblogs.com/randy/archive...2011/03/the_games_people_play.html The 777-200 has a 12% larger cabin area than the A333, so c
91 Burkhard : Yes it does. A333 OEW 274,500 lbs B77L OEW 320,000 lbs . So when you go from A333 to B77L you get 12% more floor space for 16.5% more dead weight - m
92 Post contains images JOYA380B747 : The sad fact of the matter with AI is that all this criticism against this rotten junk of an airline won't fix anything, never. Dictatorship has slowl
93 Post contains images CXB77L : Nice try, but you said the A333 beats any 777-200, you didn't say 777-200LR. The 777-200LR has far more payload and range capability than the A333, t
94 chrisnh : "Dissssssss-count."
95 Burkhard : My reference was to Mumbai-Dubai, which is 1200 miles, This can easily be done by even an A321-100 - I believe that any 777 just is too much aircraft
96 Stitch : AI filed such a compensation claim against Boeing at the same time they filed their delivery delay compensation claim.
97 dennys : this topic was a question . The Indian government could take two A345 ( 2nd Hand) for VIPs trips
98 windowflyer : Love this quote. Some way, some how, I'm going to find a way to use it. Obviously Air India has issues. Unfortunately they display it much as a disfu
99 135mech : Well, you definitely took that out of context...great job! If you would have actually read the whole entry, you might not have had that response...He
100 DarkSnowyNight : I don't even know why BCA takes their calls anymore. Seriously. This is getting to the point where the Kingfisher A380 deal looks better by absolute
101 windowflyer : The problem with AI's 777-200LRs is that they belong to AI.
102 FI642 : If they are such gas guzzlers, why haven't AI cancelled the rest of their outstanding frames. After all, why throw good money away after bad?
103 Post contains images Stitch : Maybe AI needs to bring back JFK-LHR-DEL. As I recall, around a decade ago that route did quite well with a 747-400. As to fuel consumption for the 77
104 Post contains images PHX787 : We should have an "AI Complains to Boeing Thread" I think that it IS the Indian government doing the whining. Russian market. THEN they can complain
105 135mech : This is truly a sad airline...and the people that lose out are it's passengers and EVERYONE else in the world that has to painstakingly deal with the
106 ytz : The 3-class product is not a problem. The problem is that they have the wrong 3-classes. AI needs Y/Y+/J. There is no need to offer F.
107 Post contains images JOYA380B747 : Wish we had a top AI official in A.net. I don't even know why AI removed that service in the first place.
108 strfyr51 : do you want to know why they can't sell the airplanes?? Have you ever been ON an AI airplane?? It's like buying a car from a smoker. the sidewall and
109 Post contains images canadianpylon : If they did, they wouldn't be able to post anonymously. IF they tried to be here, they might be called 'Declined2bNamed' Seriously, though, the AI 78
110 garpd : That's next on AI's list of things to get money for free. Blame Boeing and/or the 787 for a poor choice of interior colours. Claim it's causing a los
111 SEPilot : Precisely. But operating costs are huge as well; any individual who can swallow those (as opposed to, say, a Gulfstream) is obviously not hurting for
112 Post contains links rwessel : Unfortunately there's not a single consistent definition. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East#Territories_and_regions for a list of the 17*
113 777way : ^ The greater ME concept is BS 99% dont consider it and follow the traditional description.[Edited 2012-08-22 15:40:16]
114 PHX787 : Not to be offensive but many historians here in the state consider Pakistan to be part of the south Asian subcontinent with Nepal, Sri Lanka, and Ban
115 Post contains images aeroblogger : 777way (correctly) stated that the GME concept is nonsense, and that Pakistan is part of South Asia along with India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, B
116 Stitch : Can we skip the geography debate and focus back on topic before this thread is locked, please?
117 higherflyer : I'm thin (about 6' 1" and 170 lbs) and those seats are narrow for me.[Edited 2012-08-22 19:57:30]
118 AF022 : Certainly you can add: 3) Cost of reconfiguration, as any potential buyer would need a different layout.
119 Post contains images lightsaber : Trying to compete with premium airlines without delivering the full premium experience is a non-starter. The money needs to be spent to remove the 1s
120 aeroblogger : It has been blatantly obvious since ~2009 for anybody who has followed Indian aviation that 6E would end up in the #1 spot fairly soon. And even befo
121 KDAYflyer : And here is the real reason for the revenue mess at AI.
122 HAWK21M : Its more of no privatisation,too many freebees,political interference and mostly in efficient managers that take time in implementing decisions......
123 lightsaber : Then why didn't we see such discussion back then? It was all 9W and IT with AI going to have the majority of lucrative international routes awarded t
124 aeroblogger : There was plenty of discussion. Check out the Airliners-India archives...
125 ElGrandeB777CA : On average the B-777-200ER PW4090's burns about 16,000lbs an hour on a flight over 12 hours...So I would believe that's pretty good for it's mission.
126 Post contains images ferpe : They are HUGE but they are NOT THIRSTY. In fact they are the most efficient engines on any frame before the 788 started service with ANA. EK who know
127 Post contains images CXB77L : I just realised that I got this muddled up, so I'll correct what I said earlier: I'm not aware of any airlines that have opted for auxiliary fuel tan
128 EPA001 : OK. Thanks for coming back on that point. What about the Trent-900 or the EA-7200 engines?
129 ferpe : I understand them as just a fraction behind on TSFC, at some 0.55-0.56 (the RR being about 1% behind the EA engine) but they are very close onto the
130 jayeshrulz : A343- Yes. A332. Hell no. Trust me, They use their 77L to places like BOM-AMD. 747's on BOM-HYD, CCJ, COK, so wouldn't they burn money? Hell yes. But
131 ferpe : Sorry but that is B***S, the 77L is the most efficient frames there is if you want to haul 300 pax for flights where you need 16h or more capacity. A
132 bohica : Air India will call a Toyota Prius a gas guzzler if they feel they can extort money out of Toyota. It's time for Air India to put up or shut up. They
133 Post contains images jayeshrulz : Exactly! A bad carpenter always blames his tools. Same goes with Air India
134 jfk777 : Any airplane uses massive amounts of fuel, tens of thousands of gallons per long haul flight. When AI purchased their 777 fleet they looked at Airbus
135 Stitch : The entire RFP went to Boeing (777-200LR | 777-300ER | 787-8) and the 777-200LR could fly non-stop between India and North America with a full payloa
136 Post contains links zeke : The A380 engines have lower a TSFC than the GE90 (all types), the GP7200 for example has a more advanced fan derived from the PW4000, and a more adva
137 zeke : I doubt using airline mission planning rules that even a 77L can make North America with full payload. It would need a MTOW increase IMHO. I know the
138 aeroblogger : This is not a compensation claim... AI is admitting their own mistake in ordering the 77L...
139 Stitch : True, a 777-200LR would not be able to carry it's rated Maximum Structural Payload of 64 tons that distance. I would expect Air India doesn't carry t
140 sunrisevalley : I can confirm this . A 77L flight plan I have seen shows 16hr 09m for a 201.5t ZFW at MTOW. BOM-EWR is typically about 15hr 20min.
141 zeke : I think it would be closer to 40t maximum, 24t for the pax, the remainder in the left over LD3s if you assume normal cargo density. That is assuming
142 Post contains links ferpe : Thanks for the heads up on the GP7200/T900 TSFC, need to adjust it a bit in my model then. As the range data works out with my assumed higher TSFC it
143 sunrisevalley : The flight plan I am quoting from is allowing a 5% fuel contingency, 55min alternate fuel and 45min. holding/final reserve which adds 20.36t to the b
144 Post contains images brindabella : Gold medal! Enough, I'm still laughing. Thanks, folks. Came to this topic late; you've cheered a bad day up plenty, Thankfully. cheers, Bill
145 na : Sacrilege! AI critisizes the 777. Lets all cry now. I always wondered why AI ordered the LR and not the 772ER. The LR isnt very flexible, and AI is an
146 brindabella : Ferpe - post 126 (all) IMO says it all. Years ago I wondered at various carriers operating both A330&B777; I even wondered that "extremely effecti
147 zeke : I would suggest it is your model. When a model is giving duff results, it is normally due to one of the assumptions that forms the basis of the model
148 Stitch : (Disregard) The 777-200ER would not have the legs to fly non-stop between India and the United States. AI did operate three ex-UA 777-200ERs for a ti
149 EPA001 : I assume out of your post that the difference in thrust between the engines on the B77W and B77L is then software regulated/controlled only?
150 zeke : BOM-JFK is almost the same as EWR-HKG....what is the differance ?
151 sunrisevalley : It is a hypothetical flight plan not related to any 77L operator. What would a more realistic value be? I calculated 9- LD3 for baggage which leaves
152 imiakhtar : And yet UA48 EWR-BOM is operated by a 777-200ER. PK also occasionally operate PK712 JFK-LHE with the -200ER and AA ORD-DEL with the same -200ER. Thes
153 Stitch : Yes. They're the same engine, just with different thrust plugs - 110k for the 77L and 115k for the 77W.
154 sunrisevalley : True, but are they capable of max. passenger load ?. I don't know.
155 Post contains links imiakhtar : PK has never had any issues. It is worth mentioning however that PK has the 656klb MTOW on their -200ERs. Delta B777s Recertified For 656,000 Lb Mtow
156 Post contains links and images BLRAviation : It is important to realise that AI did not buy the whole 111 aircraft package of Boeing wide bodies + 737-800s and Airbus A319/320/321. It was a deci
157 135mech : I know...that's why when you quote someone...please quote the entire comment, not just a "portion" of it. The fuel they consume is substantial, howev
158 Post contains links KarelXWB : A related article: Boeing 777 dry-lease: Will Air India be third time lucky
159 VIDP : Just FYI as per recent press articles AI-101/AI-102 route ie BOM-DEL-JFK is profitable for them. I think AI,s problem in the past has been the pilot
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