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Delta Asks To Further Delay Guangzhou Start-up  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25717 posts, RR: 50
Posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6579 times:

Delta Air Lines filed for an additional extension of its start-up of Tokyo-Guangzhou service awarded in 2010.

Delta request the flexibility with for further start-up extension till June 1, 2013.

Delta states it has faced challenging economic conditions and its China business strategy does not support commencing NRT-CAN service in 2012.


OST-2010-0285


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinejetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7414 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6385 times:
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Makes sense. China's economy is slowing and is projected to keep sliding abit throughout the end of the year. I think we might end up suspending the service indefinitely


Made from jets!
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17649 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6259 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta states it has faced challenging economic conditions and its China business strategy does not support commencing NRT-CAN service in 2012.

I forgot this was still on the docket; I thought they gave up on it. This definitely has nothing to do with 'economic conditions' so why not give the allotment up and ask for them back when they need them? There are plenty to go around and that number will grow.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineTdan From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 445 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 2):
Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta states it has faced challenging economic conditions and its China business strategy does not support commencing NRT-CAN service in 2012.

I forgot this was still on the docket; I thought they gave up on it. This definitely has nothing to do with 'economic conditions' so why not give the allotment up and ask for them back when they need them? There are plenty to go around and that number will grow.

   Why are they still keeping traffic rights to fly a route that should have never been flown in the first place? Zero local traffic rights to a destination that isn't exactly known for its premium traffic to/from the US. Plus, there's literally thousands of daily, one-stop connecting seats between the US and CAN, not even including the CZ nonstop and the fact that many traveling to the PRD use HKG as their O&D.



We will ride this thunderbird, silver shadows on the earth, a thousand leagues away our land of birth... -Captain Bruce
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1686 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6120 times:

Quoting Tdan (Reply 3):
Zero local traffic rights to a destination that isn't exactly known for its premium traffic to/from the US.

DL would have full fifth-freedom rights, allowing them to carry local CAN-NRT traffic (as with all the other routes they fly beyond NRT). The only route they've operated without such rights was the brief NRT-SGN, but that specific route was excluded (they could've operated to SGN via a different Japanese gateway with full fifth-freedom rights).


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7752 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5818 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
Delta states it has faced challenging economic conditions and its China business strategy does not support commencing NRT-CAN service in 2012.

So who does DL go to in this case? The US DOT? the Japan trans. board? The NRT board? China's transportation board? It sounds like a LOT of bureaucracy is involved here.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1387 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

How is the UA SFO-CAN authority doing?

User currently offlineDeltaL1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9553 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 5397 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):

Only people this is between is Delta and the DOT.
Japan has nothing to say in it, as USA-NRT-CAN flights would be with in Delta's 5th freedom rights.
China has already given the United States its frequencies and the US is then allowed to pass them out as they see fit(which at this point is just ask as the US has like 30+ open frequencies.....but it has been via route bids also in the past)
So not really. At this point its just some paper work. Now if someone wanted them rights then it could be more work, but as it is, the DOT will likely grant the delay and we'll get to have this thread same time/place next year.

Quoting ADent (Reply 6):

I believe UA is still sitting on it.



yep.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25717 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4937 times:

Pretty interesting how Guangzhou has been such a challenge for both NW and now DL. Endless on/off attempts.

Quoting ADent (Reply 6):
How is the UA SFO-CAN authority doing?

Expired couple years back.

No need to keep renewing something which if free to have now. (which makes me wonder why DL keeps hanging on to this one).



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineTWA85 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 224 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Why did DL recently ask for more China frequencies if they are asking to delay others. Why not allocate the CAN frequencies to a route that they intend on operating with the additional request frequencies and ask for more when they actually intend on operating CAN. The DOT should deny DL's request for more frequencies until ALL of DL's current frequencies are fully utilized.

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2098 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2705 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

Quoting ADent (Reply 6):
How is the UA SFO-CAN authority doing?

Expired couple years back.

Did it actually expire? Not that it matters anymore but in 2010, UA announced that they were seeking to postpone the start to summer 2011, which obviously did not happen. I have not read anything since. Were they not granted the extension in 2010? Did it lapse last year? Of course UA would not announce that the route authority expired but I have not seen anything from DOT announcing that the authority was not available either but they may not have bothered either since since several have gone unclaimed.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25717 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 9):
Why did DL recently ask for more China frequencies if they are asking to delay others. Why not allocate the CAN frequencies to a route that they intend on operating with the additional request frequencies and ask for more when they actually intend on operating CAN. The DOT should deny DL's request for more frequencies until ALL of DL's current frequencies are fully utilized

Not all China frequencies are created equal.

With the recently liberalized air service agreement the country is divided into 2 zones.

Zone 1 consists of Beijing, Shanghai, and Guangzhou.

China Zone 2 consists of Anhui, Fujian, Guangdong (except Guangzhou), Hebei, Henan, Hubei, Hunan, Jiangsu, Jiangxi, Shandong, Shanxi, Tianjin, and Zhejiang.

Then within the zones, there are certain restrictions – most specifically withing Zone 1 – PEK and PVG services are limited, while CAN is now essentially now unlimited as is all of zone-2.

So in theory a CAN slot cannot be reallocated to a more restrictive PEK service for example.

However this is a bit mute at the moment as there are 37 frequencies free for the asking in PEK/PVG anyhow

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 10):
Did it actually expire? Not that it matters anymore but in 2010, UA announced that they were seeking to postpone the start to summer 2011, which obviously did not happen. I have not read anything since. Were they not granted the extension in 2010? Did it lapse last year? Of course UA would not announce that the route authority expired but I have not seen anything from DOT announcing that the authority was not available either but they may not have bothered either since since several have gone unclaimed.

They let it go dormant after continual delays since 2007.

At their last start up waiver request United even made mention it would not oppose the department reallocating the rights to another carrier that seeks CAN service.

[Edited 2012-08-22 19:44:05]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineFSDan From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 755 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Pretty interesting how Guangzhou has been such a challenge for both NW and now DL. Endless on/off attempts.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):

They let it go dormant after continual delays since 2007.

At their last start up waiver request United even made mention it would not oppose the department reallocating the rights to another carrier that seeks CAN service.

Seems like CAN is a challenge for all US-based airlines. Both DL and UA have failed so far. And neither US nor AA is ever likely to try their hand there...



SEA SFO SJC LAX ONT SAN DEN IAH DFW OMA FSD MSP MSN MKE ORD DTW CVG MEM JAN BHM RSW ATL CLT BWI PHL LGA JFK MEX LIM KEF
User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2352 times:

They haven't failed - they haven't actually tried.

Now, I'm thinking if they did try, it might not go great - but I think that UA could from SFO on a 787.

Maybe.

NS


User currently onlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6489 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 9):
The DOT should deny DL's request for more frequencies until ALL of DL's current frequencies are fully utilized.

Why should it be denied if there are plenty of frequencies available to other carriers if they want them.


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