Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
B6 Seat Pitch Reduction?  
User currently offlineAirBuffalo From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

More airlines going the route of increasing "premium" seating and squishing everyone else tighter, but in this article, the revenue math is screwy:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/22/travel...e-legroom/index.html?iref=obinsite

Per the article:

"[Jetblue is] cutting leg distance from 33 inches to 32 inches in 11 rows aboard its fleet of 52 Embraer E190 planes.

The extra space will be taken up by two more rows of seats near the front of the cabin with 38 inches of legroom. The change puts JetBlue on track to rake in $150 million in additional revenue this year, says a spokeswoman."

Obviously, cutting 1 inch from each of 11 rows does not allow you to add additional rows so the revenue prediction is just the additional amount they get by adding 8 more seats of premium seating where once was just normal seating.
Assuming that these seats get $30 additional on average per flight and every flight sells all 8 seats ... the planes would need to fly 33 flight segments per day, 365 days/year to make $150m dollars. Clearly, the number is at least an order of magnitude off -- or am I missing something?

The math:

$150m = 33 segments/day * 365 days * 52 planes * 8 seats/plane * $30 /seat

AB

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinejblua320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3118 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

This is correct and actually, the modifications are just about done, if not completely done. Before the mods, the Even More Space seats on the E190 were at Rows 1 and 12. Due to the design of the airplane, reconfiguring seats forward of the exit row to make for more Even More Space seats was not an option so we had to use rows 13 and 14. The E190 always had 32" forward of the exit row while the rows behind had 33". Now, it'll be a standard 32" for the non EMS seats and the EMS rows are 1, 12, 13 and 14.

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
Due to the design of the airplane, reconfiguring seats forward of the exit row to make for more Even More Space seats was not an option so we had to use rows 13 and 14.

Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlinejoost From Netherlands, joined Apr 2005, 3164 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 3035 times:

Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
The change puts JetBlue on track to rake in $150 million in additional revenue this year, says a spokeswoman."
Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
The math:

$150m = 33 segments/day * 365 days * 52 planes * 8 seats/plane * $30 /seat

I guess they mean that B6 wants to have a total of $150M in additional revenue over the full year, for all services sold. So let's say they would otherwise achieve $130M additional revenue, and this change increases additional revenue to $150M.


User currently offlinejblua320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2945 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

Well, that's what I thought, too. But, I have to say that since the seats have gone on-sale, they are quite popular, especially with the business folks who just want some extra space to spread out and leisure customers looking for a little more room to breathe. I actually prefer 13/14 to 1 and 12 having now tried them all.

Realistically, it doesn't slow down your exit too much since you're waiting for around 50 people to deplane and the entire deplaning process for a full E190 is generally around 7 minutes once the boarding door is opened. The product is cleverly marketed, though, that you get priority boarding, early access to overhead bins (thats the big ticket) and extra legroom.


User currently offlineKDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

I seriously do not understand why WN has not taken this route on the 737-800. They could have and made an investment in keeping the business traffic of FL.

User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2878 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

Yup, but it would take a significantly higher amount of work to re-pitch towards the front as all the rows behind would have to be moved. Trust me, I questioned it too and made the SAME EXACT argument in various meetings, but this way was the most efficient and cost effective way it could be done. This allowed the fleet to be completed quickly with less manpower/hours needed, lets parts being touched and swapped out, and less things having to be moved within the cabin (PSUs, etc.). Once I looked at all the pros vs. the cons for how the project was done, it started making A LOT of sense on the operational and cost-savings side for getting the project done and rolled out.



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlineAirBuffalo From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting joost (Reply 3):
total of $150M in additional revenue over the full year, for all services sold

Yea, I guess that is the only way it makes sense. Definitely misleading (although probably not intentionally) to omit the baseline to which the $150m is being added.


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 758 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

What about the A320s?

User currently offlineB6JFKH81 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2878 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 8):
What about the A320s?

A320'S were re-pitched quite some time ago, and that is what the EMS (then EML) program launched with. EMS seating available rows 1-5, 10 & 11. That was the 3rd time the A320's underwent a re-pitch (162-156 seats, 156-150 seats, 150 with EMS).

And just to re-clarify:

Quoting AirBuffalo (Thread starter):
"[Jetblue is] cutting leg distance from 33 inches to 32 inches in 11 rows aboard its fleet of 52 Embraer E190 planes.

....is very misleading as....

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
The E190 always had 32" forward of the exit row while the rows behind had 33". Now, it'll be a standard 32" for the non EMS seats and the EMS rows are 1, 12, 13 and 14.

Meaning that for the last 7 years, people flying on the E190 in the back of the plane were getting more legroom for the same price as people in the front. Now everyone gets the same unless they are paying the premium to have a LOT more space.

~H81



"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
User currently offlinejblua320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2575 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 9):
Meaning that for the last 7 years, people flying on the E190 in the back of the plane were getting more legroom for the same price as people in the front. Now everyone gets the same unless they are paying the premium to have a LOT more space.

Yup! I've asked customers on my flights how they feel about the EMS seats being at 13/14 and they actually seem to like it. They aren't concerned with the extra few minutes it takes to get off the plane... the point is to be comfy and have the extra room during the flight. It struck me weird at first, too, but now seeing it in action, it's been a huge success!


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8193 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting jblua320 (Reply 1):
EMS rows are 1

But 1 is a bulkhead, so even though you *technically* have more room, you actually have less room.

I'd have no problem just sucking it up and flying with 32'' on any route B6 flies the 190 on. It's pretty comfortable anyway, especially with 2x2 and wide seats.



This Website Censors Me
User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2539 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 11):
I'd have no problem just sucking it up and flying with 32'' on any route B6 flies the 190 on. It's pretty comfortable anyway, especially with 2x2 and wide seats.

I've long thought that the E-jets have more legroom at a given pitch than other types. I'll take 32 inches on a 190 over 32 inches on an Airbus every day of the week and, as you say, the seats are wider as well.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8237 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 2):
Maybe I'm just being thick, but on other carriers, isn't one of the perks of these seats quick egress from the plane? Rows 13 and 14 don't have that.

I think you're confusing it with F class. This is basically just marketing and taking advantage of the inherent space of Exit rows.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
I think you're confusing it with F class. This is basically just marketing and taking advantage of the inherent space of Exit rows.

3 exit rows in an E90? That's a pretty sweet E90.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting KDAYflyer (Reply 5):
I seriously do not understand why WN has not taken this route on the 737-800. They could have and made an investment in keeping the business traffic of FL.

Couple reasons why we cannot...

- Our seating policy, it would cause us to end up giving away those seats for free, im pretty sure our f/as wouldn't want to to block more seats than they do now.
- Putting it in one type wouldn't really wont help things, if a -700 has to be substituted (if the -800 is booked to 143 or less)
- Any more seats in the -700 or any adjustments in legroom and we would be flirting with spirit-type legroom


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 15):
- Any more seats in the -700 or any adjustments in legroom and we would be flirting with spirit-type legroom

Legroom outside of the exit rows is not noticeably different with the new interior. But I don't know what another row or two would do . . .



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineinfiniti329 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 631 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1762 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Legroom outside of the exit rows is not noticeably different with the new interior. But I don't know what another row or two would do . . .

From what I understand people 6' 0'' and up don't really fit that comfortably in evo interior..they fit just not that comfortably this is what I have been told...Im way shorter than that so I fit rather well.

[Edited 2012-08-24 10:17:20]

User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1752 times:

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 17):
From what I understand people 6' 0'' and up don't really fit that comfortably in evo interior..they fit just not that comfortably this is what I have been told...Im way shorter than that so I fit rather well.

I'm taller than that. It's no different. The exit row legroom is noticeably worse, but that's it.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineupgrademaster From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 3 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1748 times:

airlines are failing to focus on the CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE and they are too focused on fitting as many passengers as possible on the plane. Seems like there is a new seat supplier who understood the need of improving the passenger space rather then reducing comfort in seak of quik profits.

http://blog.apex.aero/cabin-interior...s-zest-premium-seat/#comment-23365


User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8237 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1731 times:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 14):
3 exit rows in an E90? That's a pretty sweet E90.

Yes. One row on either side of the over wing exit, plus row 1.


User currently onlineCubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 22737 posts, RR: 20
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1724 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 20):
Yes. One row on either side of the over wing exit, plus row 1.

No, EMS is 1, 12, 13 and 14. That's one bulkhead, one exit row and two rows that are not exit rows but are nonetheless located over the wings.



I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
User currently offlineSpacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3611 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 1347 times:

Quoting upgrademaster (Reply 19):
airlines are failing to focus on the CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE and they are too focused on fitting as many passengers as possible on the plane.

This is not about fitting more passengers on the plane. This is about providing a standardized experience in economy and allowing for more "even more space" seats. If you want a good CUSTOMER EXPERIENCE, pay the extra $25 for an EMS seat.

As someone who often complains about the "race to the bottom" airlines have been in for too long, I think the kind of thing JetBlue is doing with EMS is a big part of the solution. It's the passengers' fault if they don't have enough room on these planes - more room is available and JetBlue charges pretty reasonable fees for it. It's not like the old economy/business/first paradigm, where economy is one price and then the next level up is literally 10 times more expensive. If you want more room, you should have to pay for it... but at a reasonable rate. That's what JetBlue is offering. And people who just want the cheapest possible fare can get that too... with the commensurate reduction in the amount of space they get. Either way, you get what you pay for - and that's how it should be.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
WN Seat Pitch posted Sat Mar 28 2009 09:57:00 by JerseyGuy
DC-8 Seat Pitch 1970's posted Wed Jan 23 2008 11:05:45 by SeattleFlyer
Why Is There Two Different Seat Pitch(s) On DL's 7 posted Sun Jan 6 2008 17:48:34 by Lorgem1
Air Transat To Increase Seat Pitch posted Mon Oct 29 2007 13:41:56 by BWIA330
World Standards For Seat Pitch/Width/Recline? posted Sun Jul 1 2007 13:20:17 by Jetfuel
AF 77W Seat Pitch posted Tue Feb 6 2007 13:44:44 by Twolz2rn
SQ Seat Pitch--B777-300ER posted Sat Dec 2 2006 01:50:37 by Iloveboeing
MEA / Bmed A321 Seat Pitch posted Thu Aug 3 2006 15:07:34 by Angelairways
AA Y Class Seat Pitch posted Mon Jun 26 2006 15:25:59 by Monkeyboi
EK Seat Pitch On 332 And 777? posted Fri Jun 9 2006 11:16:39 by Parisien