questions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 309 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 12905 times:
About 24 months ago DL upgraded its JFK-LAX/SFO transcontinental service to US BE. Since then UA has announced plans to change its PS service to two-cabin with lie-flat J and Economy Plus/Economy. AA has announced plans to change its 767 service to three-cabin narrow bodyA321 with 1x1 lie flat F, 2x2 lie flat J, and Economy Extra/Economy.
How will DL respond since it will have an outdated premium cabin and will be chasing after the same high value customers?
LHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 12416 times:
They also don't have a dedicated transcon/PS fleet to begin with - they are simply routing int'l 757s with BE on those flights. As delimit notes, that's just fine for the market, unless they wanted to blow tons of cash chasing a market largely locked up by AA and UA where there isn't much pricing power given the heavy competition. There probably isn't room to become a viable competitor for those super premium flyers (those who demand int'l F seats and/or lie flat J) without lowering J yields, and the Y yields are pretty competitive as-is, so you wouldn't want to bring that down even further.
Techinically they are routing Int'l 757s on thee routes, but there are only a handful of actual Int'l 757 routes that they are used on. The product is fine for transcon and was probably designed with transcon in mind, given that the transcon routes FAR outnumber the int'l routes.
LHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1368 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (9 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 11751 times:
Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 4): Techinically they are routing Int'l 757s on thee routes, but there are only a handful of actual Int'l 757 routes that they are used on. The product is fine for transcon and was probably designed with transcon in mind, given that the transcon routes FAR outnumber the int'l routes.
No doubt transcon use figured into their config decision; I was merely making the point that unlike AA or UA, DL lacks a dedicated subfleet so it's less likely to see a custom product that differs from the standard int'l config 757 they use.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (9 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 11140 times:
Delta gets a lower ticket price than AA or UA that at least use to be true on these routes so i can see delta not needing to have the best. Those two fight it out for the highest fares so they need to compete with flat bed products.
The only thing i can say as a coutner argument to why delta might consider it is that i really do see a very high percentage who try to get some sleep on these flights. Its often a very busy set who appreciate a few hours of rest. The flat bed might really help to get real sleep as opposed to resting eyes for alot of people. The flat bed will be a factor for people its just a question of how many. Delta has a pretty small Business cabin anyway so im not sure they need it or that fares would increase enough to be worth the cost.
usdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 754 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (9 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 10544 times:
I hate to say it, but the entire emphasis on the flat bed is a little overblown for the Transcon market. Yes, some people sleep better in them, but there are other considerations, like in-flight service, catering, entertainment and overall travel experience to consider. Delta may not have first class, but it is trying hard to please in terms of service and catering in BE on Transcon flights. Does anyone know what catering is like in the PS flights or AA First Class?
mbmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2561 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10136 times:
Quoting delimit (Reply 2): Other than a Red eye, who cares if a seat is lie flat on a transcon?
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6): ...it is that i really do see a very high percentage who try to get some sleep on these flights.
Yep, I think you could argue that Delta may have a higher number of connecting passengers from International flights. So there may be some demand for lie flat sleeps given JFK-LAX is one segment of a very long journey.
cosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 201 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 10001 times:
Quoting delimit (Reply 2): Other than a Red eye, who cares if a seat is lie flat on a transcon?
A few years ago, my wife and I transfered to Qantas Business from JFK-LAX on Delta, 738 with Dom First, and United PS J back to JFK (the exit row with 5' leg room!) When flying to LAX, the 738 first was ok, but 6 hours was a little wearing with nothing to prop your feet on. On the return, the PS international recliner seats were so welcome after a 15 hour flight from Australia. Neither of us slept, but still really appreciated the extra comfort for 5.5 hours.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 7): Delta may not have first class, but it is trying hard to please in terms of service and catering in BE on Transcon flights. Does anyone know what catering is like in the PS flights or AA First Class?
This was a few years ago, but I will say even when it was just typical Delta Dom F catering, it was much better than PS. DL gave us a nice 4 course meal with multiple choices and raspberry cheesecake for dessert. UA gave us a single plate of a big cold cut sandwhich, no dessert, except for a piece of chocolate, and no choices. Maybe that's changed, but UA's dom J from ORD-DEN last month still had only one meal option, and was only a small step above an international Y class, mostly just presentation!
FlyASAGuy2005 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 6518 posts, RR: 11 Reply 11, posted (9 months 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 9969 times:
Quoting doulasc (Reply 9): I am sorry,There is already American,United and JetBlue. Three is a crowd. Delta has a slim chance on JFK-LAX/SFO.
Ummm..."has"? DL is up to 8x daily on JFK-LAX and 6x daily on JFK-SFO. The question is whether they will update their front cabin to keep up with AA and UA...
Considering DL's very Y heavy config compared to both AA and UA, the revenue premium is a bit skewed IMHO considering they offer less premium seats than both. All things considered, they're doing quite well...
CAM2:"Lightning coming out of that one." CAM1: "What?"
United1 From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5337 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (9 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 9881 times:
Quoting doulasc (Reply 9): I am sorry,There is already American,United and JetBlue. Three is a crowd. Delta has a slim chance on JFK-LAX/SFO.
DL has been operating flights on JFK-LAX/SFO for years, prior to JetBlue and Virgin entering the market. They don't seem to have any trouble existing in the market but its worth noting that there are two different fights going on. UA and AA seem to duke it out for the premium/corporate passenger while VX and B6 go after the leisure passenger...DL seems to exist somewhere in the middle of those two frays providing a limited amount of high end seats in the upper market but at the same time going after the leisure market as well.
Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 7): Does anyone know what catering is like in the PS flights or AA First Class?
Everyone has their favorite on who is better but all three offer roughly the same level of service. F/J is basically the same as what you would find on an international first/business class flight. Y is BoB on all 3 airlines....
I don't think that DL really needs to do much updating on their product at this point...they seem to have their nitch in the market and even if they were to offer an expanded J class cabin with lie flats I don't think that they would be all that successful in pulling passengers away from UA or AA.
nice call....even though Delta was flying the routes before jetBlue.....good call.
Quoting United1 (Reply 12): DL seems to exist somewhere in the middle of those two frays providing a limited amount of high end seats in the upper market but at the same time going after the leisure market as well.
Quoting United1 (Reply 12):
I don't think that DL really needs to do much updating on their product at this point...they seem to have their nitch in the market and even if they were to offer an expanded J class cabin with lie flats I don't think that they would be all that successful in pulling passengers away from UA or AA.
Which they wouldn't. If they do anything they will add ~the same amount of lie-flat J seats. DL wont be doing a large J or a large F/J config anytime soon.
and its worth saying, they just did a HMV and cabin config on a new(to the fleet) 757. If they were going to dump the config they have they likely would have done it with that aircraft.
I nearly spit out my tea when I read this!!! I'm with you United1 and Deltal1011man!!!!
How can anyone forget JetBlue had Burbank and Long Beach WAAAAY before Los Angeles. And the fact Delta Air Lines has been around decades before JetBlue.
777law From Monaco, joined Jul 2006, 197 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 8359 times:
This may be a bit off topic, but is there any reason that UA (and presumably AA) put so much emphasis on the product in their JFK / IAD-LAX/SFO transcons but not other transcon routes? For example, I recently did IAD - SEA / SEA - EWR on UA and was somewhat surprised by the lack of service and state of the planes.
IAD - SEA was a PMUA 752, with a pretty worn interior and limited food-for-purchase options. SEA - EWR was an old PMUA 320 that was equally worn. I was in J on this flight and was only offered a sandwhich or a salad as the meal choice. Why would UA not put the PS product on these routes, as well as, say, EWR - PDX and IAD - PDX?
Perhaps this would be an opening for DL to compete with UA and AA in the transcon market - offering a superior product on non-LAX / SFO transcon routes. Thoughts?
UA- Premier Platinum, AF / KL - Flying Blue Petroleum, BA Executive Club Silver
Quoting 777law (Reply 15):
Perhaps this would be an opening for DL to compete with UA and AA in the transcon market - offering a superior product on non-LAX / SFO transcon routes. Thoughts?
It would burn money. Sadly, in the world we live in where most PAX want the cheapest fare the days of a good hard product (front or back) are over till the airlines can get some pricing power in the market place.
NYC to LAX and SFO are about the only markets that can handle the premium product because of the business ties between them.
so anyways, people don't want to pay for the upgraded product so airlines don't use them.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 6871 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (9 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7825 times:
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 13): Quoting United1 (Reply 12):
DL seems to exist somewhere in the middle of those two frays providing a limited amount of high end seats in the upper market but at the same time going after the leisure market as well.
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 16): It would burn money. Sadly, in the world we live in where most PAX want the cheapest fare the days of a good hard product (front or back) are over till the airlines can get some pricing power in the market place.
NYC to LAX and SFO are about the only markets that can handle the premium product because of the business ties between them.
While there is a lot of alure and focus on capturing these HVCs / premium / first class passengers on routes like LAX/SFO-NYC, the majority of business travelers are not flying up-front.
There is a very large market for business travel and many corporate travel policies will not allow for anything but coach tickets on domestic routes and/or under 8 hours. Some firms use 6 hours as the benchmark but it varies. The majority of mid-level managers, consultants, and employees traveling on trans-cons are in Y. Yes, some of the higher paid industries, executives, and entertainment industry are flying up front. However your average project manager consultant at places like PWC flying form JFK-LAX every week is flying it in Y.
AAIL86 From Finland, joined Feb 2011, 390 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7619 times:
Quoting 777law (Reply 15): Perhaps this would be an opening for DL to compete with UA and AA in the transcon market - offering a superior product on non-LAX / SFO transcon routes. Thoughts?
There won't be enough higher yield traffic on these routes to warrant the kind of product thats invested in the NYC-LAX routes. Even on American's MIA-LAX service (which has an AA hub and focus city on each end)you don't see a constant equipment roster the way we do on JFK-LAX (sometimes you get the 777/762/763, other times the 738/757) routes.
If Delta really was interested in competing for more premium traffic in the transcon market, they'd go for the juggler from the growing complex of flights they have from New York. No doubt they've done the math and decided an additional sub-fleet and/or more cabin upgrades isn't worth their while.
Sean-SAN- From United States of America, joined Aug 2002, 752 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7499 times:
Delta transcon Biz is superior to AA/UA in almost every aspect. The seats are better. Catering is vastly superior. Ratio of FA/seat is higher. UA/AA/first class might be better but the majority of those pax are bumped up via overselling the other cabins.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2656 posts, RR: 5 Reply 21, posted (9 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7457 times:
In the latest OAG update, AA is dropping to 4 daily on JFK-LAX.
What does DL have to compete with? An inferior schedule?
Just my the virtue that they have 6 daily to SFO gives DL a huge leg up.
I do have to give credit to DL. While all these airlines are reinventing themselves, I was at LGA and saw 4 departure boards worth of departures from there new hub. Same at JFK. DL set a goal a few years ago to "Win NYC" and they did.
They'll continue to do fine on the trancons as they are the only Legacy carrier that will actually have a normal density aircraft and carrier large amounts of traffic.
Second, let's not get overly dramatic. AA has been at 4x daily on JFK-SFO at other off-peak times in recent years - this is hardly unprecedented. It's a smart way to manage capacity and boost yields during a slower travel season.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21): What does DL have to compete with? An inferior schedule?
AA still has flights timed throughout the day, at all the peak times. AA will continue to do just fine, as will Delta.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21): Just my the virtue that they have 6 daily to SFO gives DL a huge leg up.
Doubtful.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21): I do have to give credit to DL. While all these airlines are reinventing themselves, I was at LGA and saw 4 departure boards worth of departures from there new hub. Same at JFK. DL set a goal a few years ago to "Win NYC" and they did.
Their growth in market share has been impressive.
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 21): They'll continue to do fine on the trancons as they are the only Legacy carrier that will actually have a normal density aircraft and carrier large amounts of traffic.
Well, again, define "do fine." United seems to have "done fine" by near entirely exiting the junk yield JetBlue/Virgin/Delta market on JFK-LAX/SFO and going near entirely for the more price-discriminatory, premium-heavy segment of the market. AA was to a certain extent already there, and is now moving in the same direction. That doesn't represent some grand strategic triumph on the part of Delta - more just a recognition by all involved of where their niche lies.
dlflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 354 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 7242 times:
Quoting doulasc (Reply 9): I am sorry,There is already American,United and JetBlue. Three is a crowd. Delta has a slim chance on JFK-LAX/SFO.
hahahahahaha...
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 22): Delta historically has struggled on these routes compared to peers. DOT numbers bore this out. (see below)
Also remember DL even turned these markets into all Song flights back in 2004-2006 which further eroded DL's market presence.
RASM yield cents
JFK-LAX
UA - 12.16
AA - 11.61
VX - 11.37
DL - 9.76
B6 - 8.77
JFK-SFO
UA - 12.69
VX - 11.33
AA - 10.32
DL - 9.44
B6 - 8.42
And there it is more good news from LAXintl...DL will be fine on JFK-SFO/LAX IMHO.....My sister is a UA employee and recently flew with me to JFK on DL and said wow the service on DL is way better than UA right now in her words.But she also said UA flat seats in first-class would be nice on DL though...
25 mercure1: I don't think Delta seems to do very well. Even Virgin America earn more money per pax on routes then DL. Only one Delta exceed is single class JetBlu
26 LHCVG: Mainly because JFK-LAX/SFO are the only two routes that have enough uber-premium traffic to justify the service. Certain other transons like EWR/IAD-
27 mogandoCI: For an airline that's absolutely frequency-obsessed, 4x daily on *this* route is hardly competitive. Hopefully the A321s could boost that up to at le
28 commavia: Ah yes - one of the oft-repeated A.net memes. AA is no more "frequency-obsessed" than any of the other large U.S. carriers. At the slowest time of th
29 jfklganyc: Commavia, I meant to put JFK-SFO not LAX, thanks for the correction
30 mogandoCI: UA has higher total frequency NYC-LAX, and even their JFK service is ~7x versus 10x of AA. And it's actually more challenging for UA since AA's route
31 commavia: This isn't a hard concept (or it shouldn't be). They're two different markets. On LAX, where AA is bigger and stronger, they don't need to reduce fre
32 mogandoCI: Have I said anywhere that UA (or DL) is not ?
34 FlyASAGuy2005: And like I had said in the other thread. The real winner here is VX. Out of that yield, how much is being eater up (on AA's side) by the very thirsty
35 mogandoCI: Because you imply that somehow JFK and EWR to LAX/SFO are entirely distinct independent markets with minimal overlap, and therefore, could be exclude
36 commavia: I sometimes really am left wondering where you pull this stuff out of (because it sure isn't my posts). I never discussed whether or not JFK/EWR were
37 PSU.DTW.SCE: Exactly. RASM only tells one side of the story, you would want to know CASM too. UA and AA are flying more Premium-heavy aircraft with fewer seats in
38 peanuts: Who collects the most total revenue per flight? A 100% full UA p.s 757 or a 100% full DL 757, between JFK-LAX/SFO? Just curious. Currently, DL has no
39 DesertFlyer: It is shocking that only two people have noticed that VX could quite possibly doing the best per flight. Their RASM is high, CASM is low and they don'
40 questions: Interesting point. Does anyone know how DL has defined "Win New York"? Has it been discussed in any analyst meetings? If so, would it provide insight
41 cokepopper: Not sure about the hard product, but there are several things going on behind the scenes to build up the Soft product on transcon flights. Customers s
42 burnsie28: You also have to factor in CASM when you look at RASM to better compare competitors. If that was the case why is the airline doing so poorly overall,
43 MSPNWA: With those numbers, I wonder if any carrier, outside of maybe VX, is making money on those routes. Honestly those figures are terrible considering th
44 FlyASAGuy2005: That would be hard to tell and something we'll never know. We can post BTS data all we want but the true meat is highly proprietary. I won't say eith
45 SurfandSnow: I don't see how DL is in any way uncompetitive on the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO routes. New York is a major hub market for DL, and they absolutely must offe
46 jfklganyc: Guys, if you are adding EWR into the mix, please adjust the RASM to include that. I suspect, that when you add in UAs EWR higher density, higher frequ
47 questions: Thanks for your input SurfandSnow! Clarification for all: there are a total of five competitors; DL has four competitors. Is the A321 on order by AA i
48 questions: It appears most are happy with the US domestic BE soft product offered on these routes. Perhaps DL is replacing the curved faux wood meal trays with
49 LAXintl: You realize we are talking about routes that are 2,500 miles long right ?? 12 cent+ yield UA pulls on p.s. quite good for the distance. In comparison
50 questions: What does Delta need to do to improve? More corporate contracts with the "right" companies? Improve their image so that they are taken seriously by i
51 LHCVG: To qualitatively improve in relation to AA and/or UA, all of the above. Those who demand 3-class int'l-style F (whether by contract or by choice) alr
52 MSPNWA: I was thinking about the cost side of things in relation. That's a lot of fuel to burn. It takes a large amount of revenue to make money, and I just
53 delimit: UA is ending 3 class P.S. service on the transcons. Only AA will offer a dedicated First Class cabin. Which really must indicate something about the r
54 LAXintl: Good question. I believe one of the most important things as LHCVG alluded to is to create the proper mindshare - in otherwords create the conditions
55 PSU.DTW.SCE: DL has recently been touting the growth in NYC and gaining corporate market share. Like you say, they may just not have the clout on the California e
56 luckyone: That's where most of the passengers are anyway. Most of us don't see the sense in paying more than our rents or mortgages for a five hour ride. Not e
57 delta2ual: Yes they do. In fact, according to Richard Anderson on the last conference call with employees, they have already seen an increase in the number of c
58 dlflynhayn: Once again IMHO at my local hotel I see different it's more DL/AA/UA and not to be bias but DL is on top on departures at my hotel in LAX as a doorme
59 commavia: Which, while anecdotal, may well be representative of what others are suggesting. Delta may be more prominent at a hotel in LA, indicating a larger L
60 LHCVG: I think you hit the nail on the head there.
61 LAXintl: DOT has point of sale stats. Matter of fact bulks of Delta's LAX flying is not local - sometimes as much as 80/20 split of outside sale. If I have tim
62 questions: As measured by...? (not disputing your point of view, I'm just curious how this is measured) Interesting how a newcomer like VX comes out on top and
63 FlyASAGuy2005: Birds of a feather flock together..
64 LAXintl: Mindshare and peoples awareness and affinity of brands are tracked by various media companies like Arbitron and Nielsen. They measure everything from
65 dlflynhayn: I missed that only saw DL logo's this year at Laker games,DL also has there(name) a logo rotating on the Staples center sign out on the 10 frwy..Sham
66 slcdeltarumd11: Absolutely. There really is a shrinking and very small amount of people who need true first class on a 6.5 hours flight with the game changing lie fl
67 LAXintl: Delta can keep spending, however in the minds of the consumer its message gets lost in a very noisy media market like LA. As with all marketing one n
68 LHCVG: I've always found this interesting, and I'm not exactly sure what keeps DL from gaining in that regard. It's almost as if there is a lingering view o
69 PSU.DTW.SCE: Is this true or just an an a.net perception? A.net people hold a lot of nostalgia and speak as in terms of remembering every route, trumpth, failure,
70 LDVAviation: I wonder if there is still the overwhelming perception that Delta is the airline that flies you to Atlanta from LAX and nowhere else. That was the pe
71 questions: I think to some degree it is true. I think it's driven by something always being a "little off." Similar to the attractive yet not ultra popular girl
72 strfyr51: Because JFK to LAX and SFO Make MONEY!! People pack those airplanes at those inflated prices Why? Could be Prestige could be they're tired from makin
73 questions: Interesting. IIRC, Smi/J in an interview touted the new UA has having the best coverage of the top US business markets. I wonder which alliance has t
74 LHCVG: Love the analogy! If Wikipedia is to be believed, from JFK the top 5 int'l are LHR, CDG, ICN, MAD, and TLV. That would definitely put SkyTeam as best
75 LAXintl: I can’t speak for nationally, however in the LA media market, DL is certainly handicapped in consumer perception. As I recall however Delta only sc
76 LHCVG: I think enplanements - it just says pax under their stats, citing the 2011 PANYJY Annual Traffic Report.
77 mogandoCI: Technically the original question was about top "business" markets. Also, those enplanement figures are skewed by presence of large hubs. Globally st
78 LHCVG: That's true. I was just trying to give us a quick ballpark figure for the general shape of things.
79 delimit: Your list is totally totally slanted. You might want to look further into where the other alliances have hubs and flesh it out a bit.
80 LAXintl: According to AA's chief commercial officer Virasb Vahidi in an October 2011 presentation stated the top NYC business markets in revenue were; London L
81 NYCAdvantage: With the exception of Hong Kong they serve all those markets non stop from JFK
82 jfklganyc: And shuttle service from LGA where applicable
83 FlyASAGuy2005: And rumors are running rampant that with the axing of DTW-HKG, JFK will be picking up the flight...
85 B777ER: I heard in the meantime as a filler for some of the 777 metal they might have it run to AMS. This was on a pilot board where I read it. Are there gov
86 United1: Except for DEN no airline can fly more than 1250~ miles from LGA....except on Saturday when there is no perimeter rule. I think DL tried Sat only LAX
87 klkla: it's an a.net perception. Despite some people quoting statistics that make it look otherwise DL has added flights from LAX-JFK and free domestic upgr
88 FlyASAGuy2005: They could fly it on Saturdays... Not sure how much sense that would make though with DL's high frequency connections to DTW, MSP, and ATL offering f
89 delta747tlv: All FAs in NYC are being required to qualify on the 77, word is we are getting JFK-HKG and finally some 77s in NYC. It's all jumpseat rumors, suppose
90 Deltal1011man: FWIW i think Delta is making all F/As get 777 qualified and DXB isn't leaving ATL. I do expect JFK-HKG to start and LAX-SYD to go 747 next summer. De
91 B777ER: Rumor I read (this is a.net after all) is the pilot base for the 777/747 is going all DTW to do the Asia routings eventually (guess they lost a bunch
92 Deltal1011man: It will never be that simple. the last AE they did move some 777 slots to DTW(and added some 744 slots) because they had so many deadheads but it is
93 United1: I don't think UA has ever tried LGA-SFO...at least not in the past ~15-20 years.
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