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DL 763 Damaged After Hard Landing In CDG  
User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 33912 times:

N179DN performing flight DL 28 suffered substantial damage after a hard landing in CDG airport. Good think is nobody was injured ( except maybe the pilot's pride ). Weather was very good according to METAR.

Aircraft currently under inspection, the French authorities are investigating.


http://avherald.com/h?article=454ca645&opt=0

Would be nice if someone in Paris can help with a Pic or a more detailed report...

Rgds.
G.


80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 33844 times:

It seems that 767s do NOT like hard landings. They seem to sustain a lot of fuselage damage if you don't put it down right. How many 767s have now been substantially damaged by hard landings now? First Choice, ANA, LAB(?), and now Delta. Plus more that I don't remember.

User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 33422 times:

Quoting spiritair97 (Reply 1):
It seems that 767s do NOT like hard landings. They seem to sustain a lot of fuselage damage if you don't put it down right. How many 767s have now been substantially damaged by hard landings now? First Choice, ANA, LAB(?), and now Delta. Plus more that I don't remember.

You can add to your list a RAM 763 damaged in JFK, but at least in that occasion the weather was a factor to explain why the landing was not good, there were heavy rain and a X-wind of 25 knots when the flare was executed, they touched down nose gear first and the aircraft sustained damages in the fuselage. Repairs lasted four months IIRC.

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7975 posts, RR: 19
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 33040 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Reply 2):
You can add to your list a RAM 763 damaged in JFK, but at least in that occasion the weather was a factor to explain why the landing was not good, there were heavy rain and a X-wind of 25 knots when the flare was executed, they touched down nose gear first and the aircraft sustained damages in the fuselage. Repairs lasted four months IIRC.

Yeah same with the ANA flight, but either way if it's hard it's not gonna go well apparently. I'm interested to see where the damage occurred with the DL flight in comparison to the NH flight.



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User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4783 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 32763 times:

The 767 is a very nice handling aircraft.


Having said that, the geometry of the main landing gear with the front Bogie trailing in the forward position can make for a pretty unforgiving arrival if your sink rate is too high and especially if you have not taken out all the drift.


If anything, it seems to magnify the effects of a less than perfect arrival.


The 757, with a conventional trailing rear bogie is far more forgiving on touchdown (as long as you work on lowering the nosewheel gently)


I notice that Boeing has never used that design since, I doubt they will again and I think it's use on the A380 explains the frequent reports of firm landings on that type.

[Edited 2012-08-25 01:02:00]


The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineSXDFC From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 2447 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 31900 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
Having said that, the geometry of the main landing gear with the front Bogie trailing in the forward position

I have always been curious as to why Boeing decided to go with this design.. I am also a bit curious as to why the 707, A300 never had a main gear that was trailing in either the forward or the rear.



ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 857 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 29135 times:

Apologies for the aviation 101 questions... but what are:

1A)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
the front Bogie trailing

1B)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
a conventional trailing rear bogie

2A)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
if your sink rate

2B)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
the drift


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7428 posts, RR: 57
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 28929 times:

Quoting Gonzalo (Thread starter):
Weather was very good according to METAR.

VERY strong winds in the region since this morning, with direction 180V270 and 25G40kt ... This could explain


User currently onlinebaldwin471 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 28789 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
1A)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
the front Bogie trailing

1B)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
a conventional trailing rear bogie

Referring to the position of the main gear when down. Have a look at a picture of an A380/767 landing and you'll see that the wheels are angled forwards, as opposed to most something like the A330 which if you look at a picture of one landing you'll see the gear is angled backwards so you get a softer landing. Sink rate is the rate of descent (FPM)


User currently offlinequestions From Australia, joined Sep 2011, 857 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 28779 times:

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 8):

Thanks.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 27401 times:

Quoting questions (Reply 6):
2A)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):if your sink rate

The sink rate is how fast you descend. If the sink rate is too high, there is more gravitational forces pulling down on the aircraft and more pressure build up, which leads to a hard landing.


User currently onlinemcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1487 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 26566 times:

Maybe it was the same crew I saw recently while waiting for the crew bus at European airport. The DL 767-300 made one of the largest bounces I have ever seen in a commercial airliner, followed by a huge pitch up in recovery that looked like they were going to strike the tail. Light winds and nice day where this event took place.

Reminds me of the old take on the DL slogan in the 80's: "We are learning to fly and it shows" vs "We love to fly and it shows"


User currently offlineGonzalo From Chile, joined Aug 2005, 1996 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 26455 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
If anything, it seems to magnify the effects of a less than perfect arrival.

True...I experienced myself one of this landings on a 763 in 2008, the landing was videotaped from behind by a spotter, and it looked perfectly fine on the tape, but it felt very shaky ( sidewards ) on board, and probably more in the aft section where I was seated...

Rgds.
G.



80 Knots...V1...Rotate...Gear Up...DC-3 / EMB-110 / Fairchild-227 / Ab318-19-20 / B732 / B763
User currently offlineDLDiamondboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2010, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 24319 times:

The 767 is a lot of airplane for a little landing gear. I cannot ever recall a grease job landing in a 767, always hard and firm with overhead bins coming open.

User currently offlinecbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1572 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23917 times:

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 13):
The 767 is a lot of airplane for a little landing gear.

This I will agree with you!

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 13):
I cannot ever recall a grease job landing in a 767, always hard and firm with overhead bins coming open.

This I do not however! I have had dozens of flights on a 767 and not once have any of the overhead bins opened up. Have they been hard landings, yes and I con honestly say I have even experienced a few "kind of smooth" landings on the 767. To simply say that every landing on a 767 is hard enough that the overhead bins open up, is a bit of an over-exaggeration to say the least!

Hopefully the a/c in question is not too badly damaged and will return to the air soon!



ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7975 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23820 times:

Quoting cbphoto (Reply 14):
This I will agree with you!

Do you guys think that Boeing should offer some sort of gear replacement, given that the 787 is the intended replacement?



Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
User currently offlinebobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6538 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23724 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
Do you guys think that Boeing should offer some sort of gear replacement, given that the 787 is the intended replacement?

I don't think a 787 will be repacing that 763 since Delta has zero 787's on order.


User currently offlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31437 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 23431 times:
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Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):
I don't think a 787 will be repacing that 763 since Delta has zero 787's on order.

They have 18 787-8s on order with Boeing. Originally placed by Northwest on 06-May-2005, they became DL aircraft once NW's Operating Certificate was merged and DL's became the sole OC.


User currently offlineAlnicocunife From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 23223 times:

Quoting DLDiamondboy (Reply 13):
The 767 is a lot of airplane for a little landing gear.

What does little landing gear mean? 409-413k is what is under Delta's 767ER fleet. Quite strong for the intended purpose. The AD's to the B767 gear involve the trunnion attach fitting (trunnion attaches the gear to the wing) and the bogie beam pins (the "pin" that attaches the piston to the truck) Most likely not the problem. Landing on the mains and bouncing onto the nose does the most damage.

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):
I don't think a 787 will be repacing that 763 since Delta has zero 787's on order.

Delta has 20 787's on order for 2020 delivery.


User currently offlineSLCGuy From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 23132 times:

Does anyone have definate info on the landing or damage? While the 767 is known for firm touchdown on the mains most instances of damage have been the result of rapid derotation onto the nose gear or nose gear first landings. If this was the result of a hard landing on the main gear only it must have have been one screwed up landing!

I'm betting we'll see the usual fuselage wrinkle forward of the wing consistant with hard nosegear touchdwn when photos become avaialable.

[Edited 2012-08-25 12:33:47]

User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1278 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 22858 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 15):
Do you guys think that Boeing should offer some sort of gear replacement, given that the 787 is the intended replacement?

There's no point in redesigning the landing gear after 30 years in revenue service. Yeah, we've seen a few incidents of hard landings with more than normal damage, but how many totally ordinary landings have there been in that time, millions?

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):

I don't think a 787 will be repacing that 763 since Delta has zero 787's on order.

Actually, they do have 18 of them on order - inherited from Northwest, but they've pushed delivery back for a very long time (2021?).


User currently offlineCRFLY From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2004, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 22330 times:

What is the 767 nickname at Delta? The "Dump Truck?" Someone at Delta can confirm that?

I recall several hard landings on 767-300, especially flying on LAN! Whoop Whoop bouncing all around... No hard landings on 767-200 or 767-400 however...



With Age comes Wisdom...
User currently offlineNWAROOSTER From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1159 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 22238 times:
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Quoting Stitch (Reply 17):

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):
I don't think a 787 will be repacing that 763 since Delta has zero 787's on order.

They have 18 787-8s on order with Boeing. Originally placed by Northwest on 06-May-2005, they became DL aircraft once NW's Operating Certificate was merged and DL's became the sole OC.
Quoting Alnicocunife (Reply 18):
Delta has 20 787's on order for 2020 delivery.

Delta did pick up Northwest's commitment for 787s. However, Delta deferred their delivery until the next decade.
I think Delta will swap out the 787s for more 777s or 737-900s unless Delta really finds a need for them after all the bugs are worked out of them.   



Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
User currently offlineDeltal1011man From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 9700 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 21909 times:

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 16):

How many times are you going to say that and be told they have 18 on order with 50 options?

Quoting mcdu (Reply 11):

If its so easy....feel free to go do it.      

Quoting cargolex (Reply 20):

Actually, they do have 18 of them on order - inherited from Northwest, but they've pushed delivery back for a very long time (2021?).

2020

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 22):
I think Delta will swap out the 787s for more 777s or 737-900s unless Delta really finds a need for them after all the bugs are worked out of them.

so the worlds largest 763 fleet is going to be replaced with 777s and 739s?  
787s have to happen.....Or Delta will stop flying to Europe. (and South America and some Asia)



yep.
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 21860 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 4):
The 757, with a conventional trailing rear bogie is far more forgiving on touchdown (as long as you work on lowering the nosewheel gently)

true dat!

I had too many nice landings in training when just kinda shoved the nose over kinda firm   

but, that was the simulator, good to practice on!

*rest assured the hydraulics on the NATCO sim's worked   

-m

  


25 YYZAMS : It looks like DL 29 (the return flight) is on time. Did they have an extra plane or did they fly it back?
26 Post contains images mcdu : Actually I have. Spent many years flying the 767-300. Never bounced one or had an issue where they couldn't reuse the airplane afterwards. I did see
27 B757forever : The DL business plan calls for operating an aircraft for as close to 30 years as possible (or practical) to get the maximum utilization out of the as
28 DLDiamondboy : Sorry for the confusion. Did not mean to indicate that every single flight that I have had on a 767 has had the bins come open on landing. I can spec
29 nwa757boy : Some of us say it lands like a sack of potatoes being thrown down.
30 GreenArc : Check the OP link for input from actual passengers. So the latest is that it wasn't a hard landing after all. Sounds like some sort of landing gear da
31 Gonzalo : Update ( from AVherald too, this wasn't in the first report I linked yesterday , it is a quote from a passenger's statement ) : "The captain announced
32 spiritair97 : Has anybody ever thought that DL might just replace the 763s with new 763s?! Everybody seems to think that any airline with 763s will replace them wi
33 Post contains links Gonzalo : By the way, for those who likes to see 763 landings and missed the thread with this videos a weeks ago, here is a link with several 763 landing ( the
34 Post contains images B757forever : No.
35 Post contains links and images EK413 : Great username by the way View Large View MediumPhoto © Morris BiondiView Large View MediumPhoto © Johannes OssenbergView Large View MediumPhoto ©
36 Post contains links audidudi : The return flight was cancelled. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N...N/history/20120824/1410Z/LFPG/KATL
37 Deltal1011man : I'm sure someone has thought it......but logical thought? nope. and I would be kind of surprised if Boeing is still selling PAX 767s ( i know the tan
38 ElGrandeB777CA : Delta has written off a bunch of airplanes over the years for hard landings. I remember a 757 in KFLL 20 years ago that sat for months before Boeing T
39 SXDFC : Why replace an aircraft in which its possible replacement(s) is only a few years from delivery? There is.. The domestic are not fitted with winglets,
40 DL_Mech : N678DL was repaired at FLL and is still flying today.
41 flyhossd : I can recall two instances that fit this description; both had the same cause - broken scissors links. In both cases, the bolt/rod between the two ha
42 maxpower1954 : I'm curious - what are some of the other Delta hard landing write offs? I know about the MD-88 at LGA in the 1990s.
43 spiritair97 : Thanks for that info, but I meant is there a difference with the landing gear and overall structure of the domestics, seeing as all the flights that
44 Max Q : No, they don't. Maybe it's all those ex Navy pilots Delta hired for such a long time...
45 kaitak : Just a quick question: what happens to crews in situations like this? Is it a career limiting event; is the "career damage", if any, linked to the abi
46 Max Q : Doubtful, but I don't really know how it works at DAL. As long as you don't hurt anyone you can generally bend an Aircraft and just have to through m
47 XFSUgimpLB41X : Care to give specifics on the aircraft that were written off due to hard landings? I'm having a hard time coming up with any... That 757 wasn't writt
48 Aesma : According to a comment on avherald : N179DN suffered a nose landing gear steering compass axle failure. The plane is in AFR's hangars since friday, on
49 PHX787 : I saw on AvHerald that it's going to be ferried back to ATL sometime soon?
50 B757forever : Can you provide any specifics? The 757 you mentioned was repaired and is still flying. The MD88 in LGA that someone else mentioned was repaired and i
51 Post contains links audidudi : The aircraft is now being ferried back to ATL from CDG.. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N179DN
52 Md88Captain : Hard landings happen. The 767-300 is a nice landing airplane. The "Dump Truck" name belonged to the 767-200 which DAL did not land or fly anywhere as
53 MountainFlyer : Not to be super picky, but the gravitational force never changes. Only lift changes as a result of changes made on the aircraft with speed and/or ang
54 FlyASAGuy2005 : Has everything to do with the landing gear bay. It hangs the way it does for gear stowage when it retracts. Exactly!! Everyone was saying they were g
55 MountainFlyer : Does it? I was under the impression the gear tilted back to a neutral position on most airliners when they retracted.
56 FlyASAGuy2005 : Nope. The way it "hangs" is directly related to how it's stowed in the bay. This comes up about as much as when NW (now DL) is going to retire the DC
57 Post contains images questions : Or why some hang to the left.
58 GreenArc : The mains on the 767 retract slightly forward. When retracted, the bogies are parallel to the keel beam. When extended, they are nose down. This arch
59 Post contains links 71Zulu : Do we really know that it was a hard landing? Avherald seems to have removed any reference to that. It could just a mechanical failure on landing righ
60 kaitak : Yes; have a look the video in Reply 33, which - very helpfully - is in slow-motion. If you look at the 767s, the impact of the forward tilted landing
61 MountainFlyer : I see that after looking at a bunch of pictures (I have no technical knowledge of 767's). I guess I haven't seen it come up in a thread before. Thank
62 Post contains images B757forever : It apparently was not due to a hard landing. There was a failure of some part of the NLG. I have no details though.
63 Max Q : Have to disagree with keeping power on for a smoother landing. Unless you have a last minute high sink rate close to the runway requiring extra thrust
64 XFSUgimpLB41X : The 767ER lands best with closing the throttles as you enter the flare. The domestic 767s with the non fadec engines are a whole different story. Fla
65 Gonzalo : Apparently yes : You don't do anything of this if you have a normal landing. Maybe the definition of "hard" is the problem here.... Rgds. G.
66 XFSUgimpLB41X : There was obviously no worry of pressure hull damage considering they were up at FL400.
67 Max Q : Agree completely.
68 FlyASAGuy2005 : Things do break occasionally. It it doesn't have to have ANYTHING to do with the landing. See Much more knowledgeable than most of us on this particu
69 Md88Captain : Max Q. You must have never flown the 727. It didn't know that all planes land power off.[Edited 2012-08-27 17:40:39]
70 stasisLAX : The failed part in the nose landing gear was apparently the " lower torque link pin broke causing the lower torque linkage to partially detach from t
71 audidudi : I was wondering how often this has happened before on a 767? Was this just a freak occurrence or something that could/should have been caught before i
72 FlyASAGuy2005 : I can tell you that when I use to work the ramp (this was RJs though) special attention had to be given to the CRJ scissor link for this very reason.
73 Max Q : I flew the 727 for seven years. I've never known an aeroplane that 'knew' anything it's up to the Pilot to control it. Barring an unforeseen last min
74 Post contains links Dizzy777 : Sorry,but this is NOT true for the A330. the MLG leg/strut is too long to retract straight into place. the A330 MLG strut compresses during retractio
75 FlyASAGuy2005 : I was actually refering to the way the '67 gear hangs..
76 cubastar : On some landings it was sorta fun to pull 1 &3 to idle during the flare (as you said) and squeak it on while slowly pulling #2 back to idle. Did
77 Tristarsteve : Don't know if hang is an American slang word or not, but gear does not hang. All gears with trucks, have the truck positioned in a particular positio
78 B757forever : I do not recall seeing this on a 767, but I am still not 100% sure of exactly which part failed. DL has an optional spring-loaded quick disconnect fo
79 Post contains images FlyASAGuy2005 : Yes, just slang I'm not saying they literally "hang" like freely hang as they please, but thanks
80 Max Q : We didn't use 40 flaps (except for Air Micronesia) in fact that position was blocked off physically by a bolt. 30 flaps was normal landing flaps for
81 Gonzalo : Is the shaking and shuddering the worst possible consequence of this failure ?? I mean, could this failure lead to a runway excursion / loss of direc
82 B757forever : The 757 failure I saw happened very early in the takeoff roll causing severe shaking and shuddering to the point that PSUs and ceiling panels came do
83 burnsie28 : Aircraft is back in service and currently on its way to FCO.
84 burnsie28 : Oddly enough this aircraft will be returned to the lessor 12/20
85 Md88Captain : Well Max, I see very clearly that your telling me I don't know how to fly. I've wasted 15000hrs+, 10 type rides, and a previous military career. If I
86 FlyASAGuy2005 : This may be a bit fussy but I thought that power off is what caused that AA 727 to crash in STT 30+ years ago?
87 rwessel : The rate at which the raised wheels come down to the pavement (after the low wheels hit) is solely dependent on the rate of descent of the main strut
88 DTWPurserBoy : Having worked both 767 and A330's, I can honestly say I have had harder landings on the A330. With the nose sitting lower than the tail, many pilots n
89 HOMsAR : I recall reading somewhere (don't recall where, exactly) that the 767's landing gear having a front-wheels-down position was a compromise made necessa
90 flyhossd : FWIW, I agree with Max Q; my technique was the same as his (6 years on 727-200s). How does the MD-80 compare to the 727 in landing technique? (Thread
91 XFSUgimpLB41X : Pull the power when you want it to come out of the sky... no matter high high you are, when you go to idle, it will be coming down!
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