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Could AA Made ORD-DEL Work With 1 Stop?  
User currently offlineAirDFW From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 193 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9273 times:

I would prefer a 1 stop rather than 15 hour flight, may be with just an hour layover. Just having a refueling stop may be in MAD (not in LHR, which is AA's only love) and pick up more passengers would have been beneficial to AA rather than just cancelling DEL? Since AA has flights to MAD from all their hubs, they could have made this to work...

Thanks for your opinions

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9260 times:

I see two main problems with this idea:

1) ORD-MAD-DEL is over 1,200 statute miles longer than ORD-DEL non-stop, so it would increase travel time and make the route even less competitive when compared to AI's non-stop option.

2) MAD-DEL isn't a big O&D market, so AA would be flying a lot of empty (or deeply discounted) seats the 4,200 miles between those two cities. Every seat sold only on the ORD-MAD sector would need a new MAD-DEL pax to replenish the load, and there just aren't enough of those pax.

Edit to add: Welcome to A.net, AirDFW!

[Edited 2012-08-26 13:46:38]

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9245 times:

The issue is the amount of 1 stop choices. United and Lufthansa not to mention AI can get them there all day, so can DL.

I am not sure about getting pax in MAD either. Do rights exist?

NS


User currently offlinerotating14 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 663 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9174 times:

Welcome aboard mate! I think a lot depends on competition, scheduling, available equipment and most of all what the market wants and needs. I too would prefer to split a 15 flight but where the layover is weighs as well.

[Edited 2012-08-26 14:06:31]

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7616 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9130 times:

No. Making ORD-DEL would drain the yields in an already low yielding market.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineDLBOIFIN From Finland, joined Jun 2006, 165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 9033 times:

How about ORD-HEL-DEL? Routing wise that would make more sense that via MAD, as HEL is pretty much on the US-India circle line. AA would get all the AY intra-EU feed for the HEL-DEL portion of the flight. Well, I guess this is just daydreaming...  

User currently offlinejcwr56 From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 502 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 8986 times:

Shall we name the long list of international cities AA has dropped from ORD after giving them a try. Matter of fact, I don't believe they've ever restarted a dropped city and I would highly doubt AA would place DEL on the top of that list.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see them succeed....but outside of LHR from ORD and focus OW hubs, they can't seem to win.


User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8853 times:

DEL has structurally low yields and a very long flight time. There are actually very few connecting opportunities or logical stopping points on the great circle route between ORD and DEL also, the route is due North, crosses the North Pole, and then over Sibera to DEL. Not a lot of places to stop except for maybe ALA! (I don't think AA is very interested in an ORD-ALA nonstop nor are they very interested in returning to DEL at all until their costs are lower and they have a right-sized aircraft (787) for the trip.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8376 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8797 times:
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To make a flight work from the USA to India you are competing agaist every airline that crosses the Atlantic and Pacific. All the Euro airlines and top Asians like Cathay and Sigapore too. Not to forget the Midle East tripple of Etihad, Qatar & Emrates. Seems only from New York does it work for a US airline, Continetal showed us it works nonstop.

User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 8734 times:

Quoting DLBOIFIN (Reply 5):
How about ORD-HEL-DEL? Routing wise that would make more sense that via MAD, as HEL is pretty much on the US-India circle line. AA would get all the AY intra-EU feed for the HEL-DEL portion of the flight. Well, I guess this is just daydreaming...
HEL and LHR are the only 2 stops I can imagine for AA on the way to India... HEL because it makes sense routing-wise and AA's partner AY is based there, and LHR because of the tons of O&D available (in addition to BA's feed)...

[Edited 2012-08-26 15:21:36]


Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offlinesteex From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 1654 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 8644 times:

Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 9):
HEL and LHR are the only 2 stops I can imagine for AA on the way to India... HEL because it makes sense routing-wise and AA's partner AY is based there, and LHR because of the tons of O&D available (in addition to BA's feed)...

In both cases, though, you can argue that they make very little sense because BA is already flying LHR-DEL and AY is flying HEL-DEL. AA can do half as much flying and just transfer the pax to their partners rather than competing and/or adding capacity.

Note that the only American carrier flying Europe-India is DL on AMS-BOM, and in that case it is because there are not enough India rights for Netherlands-based carriers to allow KLM to fly the route in addition to its other Indian services. As such, the AMS-India routes are included in the TATL JV so that KLM/DL combined can offer a full range of AMS-India options. This arrangement goes back to the NW/KLM days.


User currently offlinemhkansan From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 684 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

As far as AA is concerned, most of the people I used to check-in for the ORD-DEL flight I am now checking in for ORD-DEL on AI. If AA can't make money (or can make more elsewhere with two 777s) on the route and we can provide a similar service interlining with AI, than more power to the airline. Not only does this keep the market as a whole profitable for carriers serving ORD-DEL, but AA can see high priced, high fare class international connecting inventory (Y,B,H,L class) and make more money on the domestic leg.

Until AA has lowered its costs to near that of it's rivals, and has an aircraft better equipped for the route (787 or a reconfigured, more-Y 777), this is probably the best scenario. There are many other 767 destinations in S. America or Europe that need 777 service. Two 777s is a lot to spare for a marginally-preforming, long, and low-yielding route such as ORD-DEL. Better to wait until the airplane itself is less valuable around the network with 77Ws and 787s coming online soon.


User currently onlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2172 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8314 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 8):
To make a flight work from the USA to India you are competing agaist every airline that crosses the Atlantic and Pacific. All the Euro airlines and top Asians like Cathay and Sigapore too.

The numbers may prove me wrong (anyone with them please share!), but at first glance SQ doesn't seem a serious contender in the US-India market. Just getting to Singapore takes as long or longer than either East or West Coast USA to India through Europe or from the US East Coast.
As for Cathay, their presence in the India market is ok, but some of their India stations aren't daily, and only one of their Dehli flights is nonstop. The other is routed through BKK.


User currently onlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 600 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 8184 times:

Quoting steex (Reply 10):
In both cases, though, you can argue that they make very little sense because BA is already flying LHR-DEL and AY is flying HEL-DEL. AA can do half as much flying and just transfer the pax to their partners rather than competing and/or adding capacity.

  

At this point, AA is only committed to flying what "works," and makes them money. Unfortunately, that is really only a very limited number of international routes. They're better off flying ORD-LHR and making a profit there, then just funnel passengers to BA.

Once AA gets its financial house back in order, and gets the right aircraft (read: 787) in their fleet, I'd say that we'll see some routes coming back, especially routes that were only slightly in the red.

However, I'm skeptical that ORD-DEL would come back before that, even with a European connecting point, because it's just too low-yielding.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineAirDFW From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 193 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 8072 times:

Quoting DLBOIFIN (Reply 5):
Quoting aeroblogger (Reply 9):

How about then ORD/DFW-HEL-BOM, would this work for AA in a future scenario? My point is with BA up there in LHR, AA flying own metal does not make sense but why not other OW hubs so that we get some connection and the fuel cost is reduced with a stop over.

Isn't AI making the ORD-DEL with a stopover in FRA sometimes?


User currently offlineaeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 7932 times:

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 14):
Isn't AI making the ORD-DEL with a stopover in FRA sometimes?

No, ORD-DEL is nonstop.

There was a couple months where it was flown with a stopover in FRA because crew shortage required the flight to pick up passengers on the way...



Airports 2012: IXE HYD DEL BLR BOM CCU KNU KTM BKK SIN ICN LAX BUR SFO PHX IAH ORD EWR PHL PVD BOS FRA MUC IST
User currently offline9w748capt From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 588 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 7250 times:

Quoting AirDFW (Reply 14):
How about then ORD/DFW-HEL-BOM, would this work for AA in a future scenario? My point is with BA up there in LHR, AA flying own metal does not make sense but why not other OW hubs so that we get some connection and the fuel cost is reduced with a stop over.

Isn't AI making the ORD-DEL with a stopover in FRA sometimes?

I'd find it very unlikely that AA is itching to fly their own metal to India again anytime soon. I was also disappointed that AA axed ORD-DEL - it was a great way to earn a bunch of miles - but it just makes more sense for AA to stick to its strengths and fly pax to LHR and then dump onto BA or 9W. Granted the 9W "cooperation" might end if they join star. India's economic emergence has resulted in a pretty large increase in capacity which has really depressed yields overall.

[Edited 2012-08-26 21:24:11]

User currently offline777law From Monaco, joined Jul 2006, 203 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5525 times:

Quoting luckyone (Reply 12):
The numbers may prove me wrong (anyone with them please share!), but at first glance SQ doesn't seem a serious contender in the US-India market. Just getting to Singapore takes as long or longer than either East or West Coast USA to India through Europe or from the US East Coast.

You're right - SIN is not a viable transit point for DEL or BOM from the US mid-west or east coast. UA's ORD-NRT-SIN / ORD-HKG-SIN flights (for example) require 18-20 hours of flying time from point to point - not to mention the stop-over time at NRT or HKG. Add 5 - 6 hours of flight time for SIN-DEL/BOM and you're looking at 24 hours of flying time to India via the Pacific route via SIN. Obviously DEL / BOM via Europe / Dubai or Qatar is shorter and much faster.



UA- Premier Platinum, AF / KL - Flying Blue Petroleum, BA Executive Club Silver
User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5514 times:

How about a 4 weekly DFW-BER-DEL and a 3 weekly DFW-BER-BOM service on a B-767-300ER or B-777-200 as soon as BER is opening.

- Brand New Airport in Berlin with Good Connection
- Air Berlin (Oneworld) connection from JFK,ORD,MIA,LAX with AA Flight Number
- No other airline fyling BER- India nonstop
- Air Berlin, Iberia, British Airways, Finnair flying to BER too for connection services.



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 708 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5351 times:

I do not see this ever coming back, fuel is not likely to ever get much cheaper, the 787's are looking to be more of a 767 replacement. Yes the 787s will bring new routes, but not as much as people thought a few years ago when people had visions of MIA-JNB or STL to NRT.

In the coming years I see more and more of what AA and others are doing, flying you to LHR or where ever and letting BA take you the rest of the way. Airlines are less willing to burn fuel for the sake of carrying fuel. Yes there will always be ULH routes, but only ones between specific pairs. Also keep in mind India is in an economic slowdown, and that outage a few weeks ago where almost half the country went without power does not help matters. All this combined will make it harder to make a go of a route like this.
P.S. To me it does not matter if AI can make a go of it. When you are government owned minor things such as financing regulation, lending and that do not matter if you are owned by the group who makes the laws and prints the money.


User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 11):
If AA can't make money (or can make more elsewhere with two 777s)

I think that's a big part of it, especially in BK. The opportunity cost of 2 777s can be huge when they are being used on a lower-yielding route like ORD-DEL.


User currently offlinexdlx From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 658 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4979 times:

AA could make JFK-DEL work?

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4881 times:

Instead of stopping at LHR, why not Gatwick?

User currently offlineSW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6324 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4834 times:

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 22):
Instead of stopping at LHR, why not Gatwick?

Gatwick provides almost no worthwhile connections when their partner, BA, runs most non-leisure routes out of LHR. Better to just skip London altogether than go to Gatwick, IMHO.


User currently offlinetommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6584 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4761 times:

Quoting 9w748capt (Reply 16):
I'd find it very unlikely that AA is itching to fly their own metal to India again anytime soon. I was also disappointed that AA axed ORD-DEL

It seems the only US airline to make US-India work is UA out of EWR. And still, I often ponder how profitable these routes are.



"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
25 2travel2know2 : Make it ORD/JFK-LGW-DEL and AA may be into something. BA presence @ LGW is still worth something and AA flying to JFK/ORD/DEL out of LGW may pull som
26 mogandoCI : Given that EWR-DEL/BOM are 2 of the hardest routes anywhere in the UA long-haul network to redeem a saver award J seat or have upgrades clear, that s
27 LAXdude1023 : No way AA could make that work. Not only is DEL low yielding overall, but so is LGW compared to LHR. AA cant make India work right now. Its unfortuna
28 Post contains images 2travel2know2 : That's why ORD-LGW-DEL could be flown on B767 and JFK-LGW on B757.
29 Post contains links and images lightsaber : A OW 'scissor hub' is about the only way to make this work. However, it would more likely be AB flying BER-BOM/DEL with AA flying a few TATL cities t
30 Post contains images IrishAyes : I'm going to be blunt here: the concepts of "ORD-DEL nonstop" and "profitable" are two mutually exclusive events. Air India is actually losing just a
31 macsog6 : For what it is worth, I was a fairly regular pax on ORD-DEL and took the flight because it was a non-stop flight. No matter where AA elected to stop,
32 xdlx : JFK-DEL would work same as EWR works for UA.
33 9w748capt : Again, the yields just aren't there. For one thing AA doesn't have nearly the base or feed in NYC that UA/CO does so they likely won't poach the elit
34 Post contains images IrishAyes : Remember that Delta once attempted the US-India market, and couldn't make ATL-BOM work from their fortress hub at Atlanta, nor JFK-BOM work from the
35 Post contains images 9w748capt : I'm still a little surprised that 9W couldn't survive at JFK. So now will they have 2 spokes NA-BRU (from EWR and YYZ), then 3 onward to India (DEL,
36 xdlx : Let them all connect in DXB then......! And if AI does not make money in the route why do they fly it?
37 IrishAyes : Simply and purely for glamour and because they can. Otherwise, the business logic underlying AI's nonstop services to the US is unviable and highly u
38 WROORD : Absolutely, especially that additional connections are available in LHR via BA and HKG via CX. AA can use the aircraft for more profitable routes to
39 luckyone : American's codeshare with Etihad probably isn't doing anything favorable toward service on their own metal to India, either.
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