Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Flights At IAD Disrupted--Poss Problem In New York  
User currently offlineGRIVely From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 139 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8661 times:

My wife is presently stuck in Dulles on her way to CHO. Her flight has been pushed back several times already. She said that a number of flights out of New York are being cancelled now and mass confusion is beginning to reign as perturbations propagate through the system. Any idea what is going on?

GRIV

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineMountainFlyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 473 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8572 times:

Looks like a line of thunderstorms going over the eastern seaboard.


SA-227; B1900; Q200; Q400; CRJ-2,7,9; 717; 727-2; 737-3,4,5,7,8,9; 747-2; 757-2,3; 767-3,4; MD-90; A319, 320; DC-9; DC-1
User currently offlineCODC10 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 2355 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8398 times:

An isolated line of nasty storms. Everything shut down for a little while.

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1495 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 8242 times:

Yup. I just landed at JFK in the middle of a thunderstorm and it's still raining pretty hard. It looks like it might be getting better off to the west but I haven't looked at the radar so not sure. We were vectored all over the place though and got a wild ride down the glide slope. Hopefully it clears up soon. Also, I love CHO, it's one of my favorite overnights.

User currently offlineplateman From United States of America, joined May 2007, 919 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7780 times:

Yep, weather, not Dulles but NYC problem. From FAA:

Due to WEATHER / THUNDERSTORMS, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving John F Kennedy International Airport, New York, NY (JFK). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 1 hour and 59 minutes. To see if you may be affected, select your departure airport and check "Delays by Destination".

Due to WEATHER / THUNDERSTORMS, there is a Traffic Management Program in effect for traffic arriving La Guardia Airport, New York, NY (LGA). This is causing some arriving flights to be delayed an average of 1 hour and 48 minutes. To see if you may be affected, select your departure airport and check "Delays by Destination".



"Explore. Dream. Discover." -Mark Twain
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 6684 times:

Is it just me or is rain the FAA's worst enemy in the northeast? Seriously something needs to be fixed here. Every time I try flying into JFK it ends up getting cancelled or delayed severely, because of rain.


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 510 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 6327 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):

Perhaps you'd like to go fly through some thunderstorms and let us know how that works out. Seriously, what is supposed to be done when lines of thunderstorms form hundreds of miles long?



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlinevhtje From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2009, 360 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5858 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting wagz (Reply 6):
Perhaps you'd like to go fly through some thunderstorms and let us know how that works out.

Welcome to my respected members list.


User currently offlineasteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 453 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5840 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):

Is it just me or is rain the FAA's worst enemy in the northeast? Seriously something needs to be fixed here. Every time I try flying into JFK it ends up getting cancelled or delayed severely, because of rain.

Add SFO to the FAA's worst enemy list.


User currently offline777ord From United States of America, joined May 2010, 456 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3941 times:

and then add hurricane Isaac... This summer has been an operational NIGHTMARE!!

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8088 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3643 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Is it just me or is rain the FAA's worst enemy in the northeast?
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
Seriously something needs to be fixed here. Every time I try flying into JFK it ends up getting cancelled or delayed severely, because of rain.

There's no "fix" here. You're talking about flying into one of the world's busiest airports in the world's busiest airspace. The northeast's climate means there's going to be rain, and airplanes can't fly in thunderstorms, nor would you want to if they could. I suggest stop flying into NYC.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 6940 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

Quoting asteriskceo (Reply 8):
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):

Is it just me or is rain the FAA's worst enemy in the northeast? Seriously something needs to be fixed here. Every time I try flying into JFK it ends up getting cancelled or delayed severely, because of rain.

Add SFO to the FAA's worst enemy list.

I wasn't saying fly through the storms, but it's my point exactly. These airports can't handle the capacity when it rains. That's why some sort of reliever fix is needed.

Quoting 777ord (Reply 9):
and then add hurricane Isaac... This summer has been an operational NIGHTMARE!!

Good thing I'm not going anywhere near the gulf coast anytime soon. All I've been hearing on the news is that it's gonna be another Katrina.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 10):
There's no "fix" here. You're talking about flying into one of the world's busiest airports in the world's busiest airspace. The northeast's climate means there's going to be rain, and airplanes can't fly in thunderstorms, nor would you want to if they could. I suggest stop flying into NYC.

That's what I do. I avoid LAX, SFO, and NYC whenever I can. DL has the idea focusing everything into ATL but when they began to focus stuff into NYC, on-time ratings dropped. Why? I have no idea. It's not a good idea to ADD service into NYC. Overcrowded, inefficient when one small thing goes wrong.

End rant.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently onlineMSJYOP28Apilot From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 204 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

If anyone should be blamed it should be past generations of politicians and city planners that never had the foresight to build NYC an airport like DFW.

The FAA is actually not all that inefficient at moving traffic in the northeast, though there definitely is room for improvement. The FAA tells the airlines exactly how much traffic each airport can handle in most of the known weather scenarios. In the NY area with LGA/EWR/TEB/JFK all close together and sharing the same departure fixes and having common arrival patterns with runway limitations based on the number of runways available and runway headings at the airports, it doesnt take much for even on the most optimal day for there to be issues because airlines schedule way above what the airports can handle on a ten and clear calm wind day.

Airlines schedule this way because passengers demand the service. Despite all the delays, airlines still have high demand for NYC routes and schedule what the consumer demands. Once the consumer starts abandoning NYC area, you will see airlines drop flights to meet the lowered demand. However, delays or not the consumer has continued to vote with their wallet that connecting or flying through NYC is better than other alternatives.

The purpose of ATC is to maintain and manage the flow of air traffic. ATC does not care about the weather your aircraft encounters so long as the general flow of traffic is maintained. The job of caring about what weather your aircraft flies through is the dispatcher. Thats why in many parts of the country, ATC will clear traffic to fly through areas of tstorms while shutting down fixes for weather in the NYC area. ATC shuts down fixes when it feels that deviations around weather will conflict with other traffic causing possible collision scenarios between traffic. In the winter time, low vis/cigs mean an increase in separation minimums and lower acceptance rates. Wind can further complicate things by blocking certain runways from use by aircraft. EWR sees this everyday. EWR tries to get runway 11 up for use to relieve congestion on 4R/22L but cannot if 11 has a tailwind greater than the limitation of the airlines that would use it.

If you want less delays in NYC, stop flying to NYC or demand a huge airport be built to replace to the current ones. Maybe you can convince the govt to force airlines to schedule 30 or less arrivals per hour into EWR/LGA/JFK because only with those type of arrival rates will you be able to really reduce delays into NY area airports. But then you would have very little choice other than to connect at all the airlines hubs to get anywhere from NYC.


User currently offlinewagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 510 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2628 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
I wasn't saying fly through the storms, but it's my point exactly. These airports can't handle the capacity when it rains. That's why some sort of reliever fix is needed.

You don't understand, there is no fix. You keep saying "rain". Just plain old rain without major convective activity associated with it isn't really a problem. Low ceilings and low visibility can reduce the number of operations at a given airport due to the inability to run multiple approaches that are possible in good VFR weather. Unfortunately airlines schedule their operations based on a best case scenario, not a worst case scenario. So when capacity is reduced even a little, a domino effect occurs pretty quickly that can delay aircraft and crews throughout the rest of the day.

Don't get me started on how some airlines/crews feel about weather. I've had aircraft happily fly through heavy precipitation and report a smooth ride, but the guy 10 miles behind him absolutely refuses given that information and makes me vector him 30 miles around it. It seems like some crews don't want to get their plane wet sometimes. There is no fix when that comes up. Airspace is decidedly finite and becomes a lot smaller in those situations when you work on my side of the radar scope. There's nothing to do then but slow down the problem and take less traffic given the circumstances.

And on those days when a cold front moves east and a line of unbroken thunderstorms forms from Canada to South Carolina, you better just sit back and wait because nobody anywhere on the east coast is going through it.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
That's what I do. I avoid LAX, SFO, and NYC whenever I can. DL has the idea focusing everything into ATL but when they began to focus stuff into NYC, on-time ratings dropped. Why? I have no idea. It's not a good idea to ADD service into NYC. Overcrowded, inefficient when one small thing goes wrong.

End rant.

I'll tell you why DL focused in to NY - because people want to go there. It's a simple concept. You wouldn't argue that Fargo, ND should have huge amounts of airline traffic because relatively speaking few people want to go there. New York is the largest population center on the continent (outside of maybe Mexico City), so obviously a lot of planes are going to wind up going there. If the planes were all empty DL (and every one else for that matter) wouldn't be flying them there. And few people want to bother with the hassle of going to places like SWF or HPN if their destination is in the city. There's no public transport links, so you're left with a long drive on the already congested highways (kind of a common theme eh?).

Another thing you need to consider is that a place like ATL is relatively isolated in comparison to other major airspaces. They have the luxury of having their arrivals designed for optimum efficiency and probably have efficient airspace sectors designed to deal with large amounts of traffic thanks to their location. Airspace sectors in the Northeast are basically shoehorned in every which way to fit between a myriad of other sectors and traffic flows, so we in ATC are left with very small areas of airspace to work with and when that weather rolls in, there's nowhere to go. The system works great on VFR days with no weather for 500 miles. Nextgen may improve capacity on those VFR days but I highly doubt it will do anything for the nasty days. It isn't going to make planes magically be able to fly through weather. So until the airlines stop scheduling for the best case scenarios (which will never happen) you're stuck.

End Rant.



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting wagz (Reply 13):
Another thing you need to consider is that a place like ATL is relatively isolated in comparison to other major airspaces. They have the luxury of having their arrivals designed for optimum efficiency and probably have efficient airspace sectors designed to deal with large amounts of traffic thanks to their location. Airspace sectors in the Northeast are basically shoehorned in every which way to fit between a myriad of other sectors and traffic flows, so we in ATC are left with very small areas of airspace to work with and when that weather rolls in, there's nowhere to go. The system works great on VFR days with no weather for 500 miles. Nextgen may improve capacity on those VFR days but I highly doubt it will do anything for the nasty days. It isn't going to make planes magically be able to fly through weather. So until the airlines stop scheduling for the best case scenarios (which will never happen) you're stuck.

Exactly. The air traffic density in the northeast corridor means that it takes just a slight deviation from the norm to send things into a very bad place. Having that deviation happen at an airport like JFK only compounds the problem. There's no real fix for this. It's just the nature of the beast.



Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3696 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2369 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting AA94 (Reply 14):
There's no real fix for this.

There is a fix, not a popular one, but a fix nevertheless. Slot control based not on best-weather, optimal-situation capacity, but on seasonal average that does that into account the occasional traffic-stopping weather.

It will not solve all problems, far from it, but it will definitively be an improvement over the current situation, unless you happen to be flying to/from that small airport upstate that will probably lose its flights to the Big Apple in the process...

Fix one problem, create another...



I've got $h*t to do
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Two Air China Planes In New York At The Same Time posted Tue Apr 24 2007 04:51:22 by Levg79
UFO At JFK IN New York?!? posted Thu Jun 7 2001 06:39:36 by DALATL
Air Canada In New York City In The Past. posted Tue Jul 3 2012 21:13:56 by doulasc
Helicopter Crashes In New York's East River posted Tue Oct 4 2011 12:47:15 by ManuCH
Monarch 9064 In New York? posted Sun Nov 21 2010 09:41:37 by fca767
Why Doesn't UA Have More Mainline Flights At IAD? posted Tue Dec 8 2009 17:13:30 by USAirALB
CO Named Leading Carrier In New York posted Mon Aug 31 2009 16:44:36 by COalways
U.N Week VIP Visitors In New York posted Mon Sep 22 2008 18:49:05 by LAXspotr
Delays In New York? posted Wed Nov 28 2007 12:21:45 by Drgmobile
Actor / Pilots Article In New York Newsday posted Wed Sep 26 2007 23:10:14 by B6MoneyGuyJFK