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Scary MD-80 Vid - Flaps Deployed On Takeoff  
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 672 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 33519 times:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFLF0ox27_k&feature=player_embedded

Crazy. Air Uganda MD-80 starts its takeoff roll from Nairobi with a clean wing. Looks like the crew only deploy flaps after adding power and getting the config warning.

Is this a way of checking the T/O config warning, or is this just a complete mess up? If it's the former, then it's a very novel way of doing it...

[Edited 2012-08-28 14:11:40]


Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFaddypainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 33374 times:

Thank god the warning breaker hadn't been pulled or this could have easily been another Spanair 5022...

User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5337 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32754 times:

I didn't hear a config horn on the video. (This makes sense because the videographer is sitting in one of the last rows.) However, for the poster to say that it was only deployed after the config horn really seems like speculation. I do note that the flap actuation does not come immediately upon advancement of the throttles. But it of course takes a few seconds to react...

OTOH, how do we know that the original intent was not to take off slats-only? I can't see the slats move on this video.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6166 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32737 times:
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Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
Is this a way of checking the T/O config warning

I guess it could be, but I am sure there is a way of checking its operation without starting takeoff.

Quoting bueb0g (Thread starter):
or is this just a complete mess up?

I bet it is a screwup.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6597 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32735 times:
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I thought that if yo get the T/O config warning at any point then you have to abort the take-off immediately and ask questions later. Assuming this does not happen after V1 but it is inhibited after 80knts, isn´t it?

So I believe it is a "complete mess up". And more messed up because they did not stop.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6597 posts, RR: 35
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32673 times:
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Quoting wjcandee (Reply 2):
OTOH, how do we know that the original intent was not to take off slats-only?

Can the MD-80s do slats only takeoffs? Do you actually have the option up front of exending the slats only and not the flaps?


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8195 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 32513 times:

This is a total screw up, and they were very lucky not to kill everyone on board, including the chap who filmed and uploaded this clip, who is a valued member of our community and regular contributor to these forums.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 2):
OTOH, how do we know that the original intent was not to take off slats-only?

There is a "Flaps 0" (slats only) setting on the Mad Dog (and on the DC-10 / MD-11) but I don't know if it's a takeoff setting. If it is, it sure won't work at Nairobi, which is the very definition of "Hot and high" which degrades performance a lot.

I hope the authorities get wind of this.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32211 times:

Watching it, this is my Monday morning quarterback assumption. First, no, advancing the thrust levers on the runway ready for takeoff is not the proper way to test the takeoff config warning. Second, to me this was a blatant error. You can hear the engines spool up a bit and then the aircraft starts to roll. The thrust levers are advanced a bit more and I bet this is when they got the warning because the flaps are extended. After they're configured and the warning goes out, the thrust levers are advanced further. I have a feeling the pilots know what they did, and they're lucky but to answer an earlier question, they absolutely should have aborted as soon as they got the warning. I in no way know exactly what happened here, but I'm making an educated guess based on my experiences.

User currently offlineMcoov From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 132 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32147 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
There is a "Flaps 0" (slats only) setting on the Mad Dog (and on the DC-10 / MD-11) but I don't know if it's a takeoff setting.

Beyond testing, what is the purpose of this setting? Under what circumstance would you want a slat-only takeoff?


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5157 posts, RR: 43
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 32101 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
but I am sure there is a way of checking its operation without starting takeoff.

On every aircraft I have flown that has a take-off configuration warning, also has a "take-off warning" button which is pushed during the pre take-off checks. It simulates throttle advancement, thus activating any take off warning should there be one.

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 2):
OTOH, how do we know that the original intent was not to take off slats-only?

My guess would be because flaps were extended after partial throttle advance. If the original intent was a flapless take-off, I can't imagine changing one's mind at that point.

If you watch the video, you see flaps extended after the thrust was partially advanced, then after flaps extended, the remaining thrust looks like it was then added. It almost appears (opinion only), that the thrust was advanced to the point of the take-off warning, then it sounded, they assessed why, extended the flaps, then when the warning stopped they continued advancing to take-off thrust, and continued the take-off.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
I hope the authorities get wind of this.

I don't know what safety reporting system exists in Uganda, but hopefully so ... there is something to be learned here. If take-off flaps were not extended, then for some reason, the crew became distracted. It happens, and it will happen again. And .. it is NOT a third world issue, as exactly that has happened to Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines.

That is the main reason the Take-Off Configuration Warning System can not be MELed inop.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineSJCMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 72 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 31845 times:

I had the exact same thing happen to me in 2005 flying PHL-MSP on a NW DC-9 (not sure if it was a -30, -40 or -50). I was sitting in a very similar place to the shooter of this video as well. I could not tell if the slats were deployed or not (this was before I realized that the slats make a thud that is felt on the whole plane when on the ground). It made me more than a little nervous and I wondered if there was anything I could do. I was rather relieved when I saw the flaps extend as we began the takeoff roll. I was in MI on vacation with my family in 1987 when that NW flight went down. That was certainly on my mind.

I had a second experience on a NW DC-9 in 2008 (I believe a -30) flying from GRR-MSP. We were taking of in the middle of a fierce snowstorm and we actually took off without the flaps extended. Again, I wasn't sure of the position of the slats as I got stuck in an aisle seat. In addition, the pilot ran the engines hard for about 15 minutes before we de-iced and he explained that he was getting our takeoff weight down. Is there a reason he would have taken off flaps up in a snowstorm?

[Edited 2012-08-28 17:57:49]

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 31721 times:

Quoting SJCMSP (Reply 10):

Not sure about a flaps up takeoff, but part of our ops during winter ops is to leave the flaps up until we approach the runway. That way deicing fluid doesn't get into the various crevices in the wing and also reduces the likelihood snow and ice will get kicked up and freeze in the flap tracks when we're taxiing around. A flapless takeoff certainly seems odd, though.


User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6597 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 31492 times:
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Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6):
including the chap who filmed and uploaded this clip, who is a valued member of our community and regular contributor to these forums.

I hope that chap had a change of pants and underwear then.


User currently offline3holer From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 12 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 30396 times:

Quoting longhauler (Reply 9):
On every aircraft I have flown that has a take-off configuration warning, also has a "take-off warning" button which is pushed during the pre take-off checks. It simulates throttle advancement, thus activating any take off warning should there be one.

Where is this button on the 767? I fly them and ours have no such button. In fact only one jet I have flown has had such a button.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 30266 times:

A little off-topic.. but are incidents like this why it (seems to be) Delta SOP to deploy flaps immediately after pushback?

This is just something I've noticed after flying with DL several times, and watching DL jets pushback at LAX.. they also all do a control surface "wiggle" after pushback.

[Edited 2012-08-28 20:30:16]


Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5122 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 29877 times:

If flaps/slats are not set on the MD80, can the aircraft still takeoff with added power? I recall Northwest 255 might have recovered if max power was added. Could be thinking of Air Florida 90, but I could swear I heard that about 255 also.


I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlineflybynight From Norway, joined Jul 2003, 1031 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 29733 times:

Quoting F9animal (Reply 15):
If flaps/slats are not set on the MD80, can the aircraft still takeoff with added power? I recall Northwest 255 might have recovered if max power was added. Could be thinking of Air Florida 90, but I could swear I heard that about 255 also.

Maybe if all the runway was used and the plane rotates at very high speed. Man, I'd hate to find out.



Heia Norge!
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 856 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 29353 times:

@Acey559

A no-flap takeoff is certified in many transport category jets, not sure about DC9, for improved single engine climb performance. A no-flap takeoff uses tons of runway but less drag equals better climb. Rarely needed but operationally has its advantage.


User currently offlinelonghauler From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 5157 posts, RR: 43
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 28858 times:

Quoting 3holer (Reply 13):
Where is this button on the 767? I fly them and ours have no such button. In fact only one jet I have flown has had such a button.

Actually the older B767s in our fleet are the only ones that don't have a Take-Off Configuration warning button.

The newer ones have an "Eicas Take-off Warning Notice", but for fleet commonality, (within the B767s) it is not used in our SOPs, in fact it might even have been deactivated, I haven't "played" with it in a while.

All of the rest of the fleet, E175/E190, A320 series, A330/A340 and B777s are so equipped, and its use is in the SOPs.



Never gonna grow up, never gonna slow down .... Barefoot Blue Jean Night
User currently offlineAR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 6597 posts, RR: 35
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 28508 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 15):
f flaps/slats are not set on the MD80, can the aircraft still takeoff with added power?

In a normal takeoff, with normal V1 and VR, you will probably drag the tail for a while and may get off the ground, but once out of ground effect you are probably coming back down.


User currently offlineflightsimer From United States of America, joined Aug 2009, 605 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 28345 times:

I doesn't look like a screw up to me, but more like a technique (improper) of the pilot advancing the throttles to start spooling up the engines as they are completing the checklist. I am basing that on the fact that you also see them turn on and extend the landing lights just prior to bringing the throttles up and the slow roll started.


Commercial Pilot- SEL, MEL, Instrument
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4229 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 28270 times:

Having flown the 80 series, I can say with 100% certainty that this was a royal screw up.

The engines spool quite slow on the airplane, and you don't get the fan "buzz" sound until well into the config warning range.

They were set at takeoff power when the flaps deployed, so this was certainly a mistake thankfully corrected by the warning horn.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinepvjin From Finland, joined Mar 2012, 1414 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 27889 times:

Yeah saw that video soon after it was uploaded as I have subscribed flymajj as he uploads many amazing videos from all kinds of interesting airlines and plane models.

Scary stuff indeed, I wonder if this was a screw up or if they were testing warning horn...

[Edited 2012-08-28 22:48:47]


"A rational army would run away"
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 27713 times:

Spanair 5022 anyone?  Wow!http://www.spiegel.de/video/dramatis...absturz-in-madrid-video-36337.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanair_Flight_5022

[Edited 2012-08-28 22:52:21]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5337 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 27550 times:

Quoting flightsimer (Reply 20):
I am basing that on the fact that you also see them turn on and extend the landing lights just prior to bringing the throttles up and the slow roll started.

Typical to turn on landing lights when cleared for takeoff...


25 XFSUgimpLB41X : The config warning is checked that it sounds in preflight, and most carriers you go full forward on the thrust levers momentarily to check that you h
26 UK_Dispatcher : I did not even notice this when I was filming it, which I suppose is a good thing really! I only noticed later when reviewing my video in the evening.
27 Acey559 : Interesting info, thanks!
28 abrown532 : Perhaps because the flight was very empty the captain thought they could takeoff without flaps.
29 SJCMSP : Referring back to the take off I experienced in GRR, is there a reason they may have done this in a snowstorm?
30 bueb0g : Doesn't make any sense... If that were the case, they wouldn't have deployed flaps during the roll. In any case, the MD-80 isn't rated for slats only
31 BA777 : Unless its certified to do so he/she should not even consider it! Thank god the warning horn appeared to do its job as the consequences could have po
32 SKAirbus : I landed at OSL the other on an SK 737-600 from ARN and the captain extended the flaps only to retract them and extend them again a few minutes later.
33 longhauler : Normally the proposed flap setting for landing is decided before descent is even started, as speeds are determined and either set with bugs, or enter
34 AA777223 : If you fly them, shouldn't you know that? I maybe woefully mistaken, but I was under the impression that for all the years and years of training and
35 bueb0g : I don't understand your point here... 3holer was saying that the 767s that he flies has no such button, so yes, he knows his plane just fine, which i
36 AA777223 : As I tried to say as delicately as possible so as to not imply that he didn't know his aircraft, I don't understand how he could not know whether or
37 boeingfixer : You may want to reread 3holer's post. I took his question as direct sarcasm. Not all aircraft have takeoff config warning test switches on the flight
38 Post contains links and images FlyMKG : At my airline we check the 727s horn before every takeoff. After the Captain has called for the takeoff flaps to be set, the First Officer moves the
39 bueb0g : How should he know the exact equipment installed on other airline's aircraft? He knows his own, and knows there isn't such a button on the frames his
40 3holer : You might want to look up condescending in the dictionary again, you missed the mark. The entire fleet 767's (-200's and -300's, all from different i
41 KC10Guy : I cannot speak much for the MD series but on our KC-10 (DC10-30F) the Take off warning horn system has no lights or buttons. Just a horn. I check it d
42 TJCAB : ...and if someone should attack in such a manner, they should have their own facts right and worded correctly. The point we believe you were making a
43 slimshady : isnt that a 717? not an MD-80 series? The wing seems to far back, or too close to the engine to be a MD-80. On an MD-80, there seems to be more distan
44 bueb0g : No. Definitely an MD-80; for one, Air Uganda don't have any 717's...
45 yeelep : Per Air Uganda website, it is a MD-87.
46 AA777223 : I was trying, very specifically not to imply that I knew more than you. I was trying not to sound like I was "talking down" to anyone by my question.
47 longhauler : That is the way I read your original request. Every aircraft is different, although it looks the same on the outside, just about every B767 built for
48 longhauler : In my opinion, the biggest no-no wasn't that he got the warning, but that he continued the take-off. When the flaps were extended, he wasn't moving v
49 sturmovik : Off topic, but did anyone else notice the L-1011 parked on the ramp at 01:15? Looked interesting.. any idea what it's doing at NBO?
50 Post contains images 744lover : One system flaw on them: If you're doing a single-engine taxi with flaps and trim set, you will hear a "TAKEOFF OK" message =) Just don't tell the be
51 wjcandee : Observant of video. Not observant of title. Read title of video. I think it answers your question.
52 Acey559 : I spoke to a family member who flies the MD-80 and the later build aircraft (probably retrofitted on old ones as well but didnt ask) have an automatic
53 wjcandee : Hmmm... regarding the last post. I know that the MD80 will deploy slats from mid to full as the first step of the stall prevention/warning system, i.e
54 flightsimer : Granted every airline's sops are different and this should be an sop type thing... But I have only seen aircraft turn on the landing light prior to e
55 Post contains links wjcandee : Spend an hour at DFW watching departures. Take along a radio. You'll see what I mean. You're right -- different airlines, countries, SOPs, but...for
56 e38 : Quoting cedarjet (Reply 6), "There is a "Flaps 0" (slats only) setting on the Mad Dog but I don't know if it's a takeoff setting. If it is, it sure wo
57 Mir : We will leave the flaps up during taxi in icing conditions, but they are set to their takeoff position before we ever enter the runway. I've done one
58 wjcandee : For what it's worth, the two aren't mutually-exclusive. There are plenty of videos out there where the aircraft turns on its landing lights, turns th
59 Acey559 : I'll have to get further explanation. My mom's cousin (whatever that makes him in relation to me) flies the MD-80 and I saw him in passing on the ter
60 wjcandee : Yes to the first. Yes to the second (select Flaps 0). One would do it to increase second segment climb performance. However, it comes with a penalty
61 bueb0g : That's not really what we're talking about in this case. The alert is the same, and the warning is the same, and the test is still there - the only d
62 XFSUgimpLB41X : If you're in flight (NOT on the ground like in this case) and the slats are in the mid (Takeoff) position, and you enter the stall AOA regime, the sla
63 BoeingGuy : This is a custom option that was done for CO. It's been done very rarely, if at all for other customers on Boeing airplanes. Such a Take Off Warning
64 longhauler : It is the button than simulates thrust lever advancement, as you note above, to test take-off configuration before thrust levers are actually advance
65 BoeingGuy : Oh. As I mentioned, it was a custom option only. It has never been offered in Boeing's option catalog. I do know that CO took it, but not sure what o
66 XFSUgimpLB41X : All of DL's and NW's 757/767s are so equipped.
67 longhauler : They were three aircraft we referred to internally as "The Three Amigos". They were low yield/high density aircraft used for vacation type destinatio
68 Viscount724 : I only show two operated by IB and KQ, and they both originally spent 5 years with Asiana before going to Iberia. The other one (C-GHPD) was original
69 jeb94 : This is very much a 'Whoops' and 'Thank your maker the T/O warning system worked.' Now, I have ridden jumpseat on a flaps 2 takeoff. That was tense. R
70 jeb94 : Honestly, as a mechanic on these birds I'm not real sure how it could auto deploy the flaps. Its all cable driven to hydraulic valves. The valves don
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