Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Will Hawaiian Fly To Europe With Its A350XWB?  
User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2682 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 26796 times:

Will Hawaiian fly to Europe with its A350XWB?
That would be great IMO!


אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 26700 times:

I believe that from Europe to Hawaii the market is too small. I don't know how it is the other way round.


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 969 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26627 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

No way in hell Hawaiian wiill ever fly to Europe... I don't see Europeans sitting in a plane for 17 hours to sit on a beach.. and there are no or little economic ties

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2682 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26573 times:

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
No way in hell Hawaiian wiill ever fly to Europe... I don't see Europeans sitting in a plane for 17 hours to sit on a beach.. and there are no or little economic ties

I visited Hawaii last year, and yet, I live in France.
Hawaii is not just a beach IMO...



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9391 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26454 times:

Well, Europeans sit in planes for over a dozen hours just to get to beaches in the Caribbean or South East Asia and other remote places. Why not HNL?

Recently I saw someone mentioning the HNL-ANC-LHR service (or was it LGW) by WA in the 80s I guess which was not very profitable. LTU tried DUS ANC HNL with L15 but only for a few test runs. All did not work. If Europeans want to go there it is a fine combination with California or the Pacific Northwest.

For those who only want to fry at a beach for 3 weeks I never understood in first place why they do that overseas, The Canary Islands are good enough for that. Not mentioning Hawaii.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 485 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26440 times:

I am going to go out on a limb here and say, maybe a once a week flight to London as a token "hey look what we can do with our new plane" flight.


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineba319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26432 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting g500 (Reply 2):
I don't see Europeans sitting in a plane for 17 hours to sit on a beach

- We went to Hawaii on our honeymoon and plan to go back for the wife's 40th.

Saw lot's of other Europeans whilst there, there is more to Hawaii than just beaches.



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2409 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26351 times:

Been there three times and I am a European. Love it!

User currently offlineJAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1600 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 26316 times:

Quoting LY777 (Reply 3):
Hawaii is not just a beach IMO...

You tell 'em LY777! Everryone should visit Hawaii at least one in his/her life.

That being said, and having no expertise in the industry, I think a 17 hour non-stop flight from Europe to Hawaii - with today's fuel prices - is unlikely. Even in Y class, HA would have to give a bit more room so its passengers don't succumb to DVT - which would mean fewer seats and even higher costs. It would make a lot more sense for HA - or any other airline marketing Hawaii to Europeans -- to permit a free layover in LA, SFO or SEA or SAN (a lil shout out to my hometown!) and then proceed on to the islands.

So my question is - what is the optimal mission of the 350? How far must HA fly the plane and with what loads to make it most efficient?


User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26252 times:

I don't think the yield would be close to anything that would be sustainable for a flight of this duration. The operating costs would be massive.

You need lots and lots of revenue to pay for the high costs of ULH.


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26203 times:

With regards to the flight time, the actual time comes up as more like 13.5 hrs, not 17. The route taken from say LHR to HNL is way up over Greenland, Over northern Canada and almost into Alaska before heading out over the pacific. Winds at those latitudes would likely not change the time of the flight by much in either direction. This was calculated at a cruise speed of M0.82 which should be realistic. CDG, FRA etc. are not much different time wise.

As to whether it would make money, possibly. People are increasingly looking for more than just a beach holiday. There will always be those that will stick to the Caribbean, Spain, Florida etc. but there are plenty who will seek out less accessible destinations and Hawaii has a huge amount to offer.

HNL is not much further than somewhere like Vietnam, which now has direct flights to/from Europe. It's also a reasonably viable alternative as a stop off to AKL, and SYD, and it could be used as a 2 centre with LAX, LAS, SFO etc. all huge markets for Europe.

I don't necessarily think it would work right now, but it's certainly getting there and by the time the A350s turn up I think they could make europe work.

Edit....it seems I may have underestimated the A350s cruise speed, which is actually in line with the A380s M0.85, making LHR-HNL more like 13 hours, not 13.5

[Edited 2012-08-30 07:35:30]


So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlineclydenairways From Ireland, joined Jan 2007, 1234 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 26141 times:

Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 10):
With regards to the flight time, the actual time comes up as more like 13.5 hrs, not 17.

More realistic would be 15 hours.


User currently offlinesevenheavy From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 1156 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 25876 times:

Quoting clydenairways (Reply 11):

What did you use to work that out? I'm interested because It can routinely be done in 15 hours flying time with a stop in somewhere like SFO.....10 hrs to SFO, another 5 to HNL. That's allowing for having to land and take off twice, the extra 450mn flying and more exposure to headwinds on the westbound sector (eastbound you could do it in 13.5 hours flying time WITH a stop in SFO)

I still say that 13-13.5 hours is entirely realistic for LHR-HNL based on the A350's specifications and the likely route taken.



So long 701, it was nice knowing you.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9391 posts, RR: 29
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 25863 times:

been to Hawaii a couple of times and I know that there is more than beaches, which I am not too fond of anyhow. The question is, which European gateway they would chose. Connecting to their South Pacific and Australian routes would eventually make that flight viable.

Stop over in HNL is much more exotic than SIN or BKK.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineBen175 From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 693 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25685 times:

I travel to Hawaii every July (from Perth, Australia) and every time I go there I meet more and more Europeans (especially English, French and Italian) tourists. I think a 2 x weekly HNL-LHR service would definitely work if HA snap up a few codeshares LHR-CDG/FCO/MXP to feed the flight.

User currently offlinejfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 8376 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25677 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Hawaiian is probably not the airline fly nonstop from Honolulu to London. They have a "First Class" that is very US domestic in pitch, about 40 inches only. Virgin Atlantic would be the airline to make this market viable, as they have 787-9 coming in a few years. Their Upper Class and Premuim Economy classes are the type of products such a flight should have. VA could do it from their LGW base.

User currently offlineLY777 From France, joined Nov 2005, 2682 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25617 times:

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 15):
They have a "First Class" that is very US domestic in pitch, about 40 inches only. Virgin Atlantic would be the airline to make this market viable, as they have 787-9 coming in a few years. Their Upper Class and Premuim Economy classes are the type of products such a flight should have. VA could do it from their LGW base.

I heard someday that Virgin wanted to launch a London-HNL flight. But, once again, they need a few codeshare to London to feed these flights



אמא, אני מתגעגע לך
User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1271 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25591 times:

It's hard to see Europeans traveling to Hawaii in large enough numbers to ever really make a direct flight work. HA could no doubt put any aircraft that might be capable of doing this on more profitable, reliable routes to Asia.

There are just too many closer alternatives for Europeans - even Phuket and/or Aruba are closer. Phuket is a long way from, say, London, but it's still much closer than Honolulu.

And for customer who can't afford that or don't want such a long trip, there's always the Mediterranean.

Hawaii is also much more than just the beach, but for tourists in Europe who aren't interested in the beach but are interested in the natural aspects and touring islands, there's also the Azores.

[Edited 2012-08-30 10:12:47]

User currently offlineazjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3941 posts, RR: 27
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 25487 times:

I don't think HA even knows the answer to this question. However, I think people that want to go to Hawaii are going for more than just the beaches. There's no other place on earth like Hawaii the full experience cannot truly be replicated by going to some other island. I suspect cost would make this route prohibitive, not distance or demand.

User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12568 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24789 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Interesting that the Americans that have posted all insist us Europeans have no reason to want to travel to Hawaaii while the Europeans insist otherwise!   


Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineER757 From Cayman Islands, joined May 2005, 2526 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24665 times:

I think it's much more likely that they'd code-share with a European carrier and do a plane change at a US West Coast airport they serve (SFO, LAX or SEA for example). For example LH from FRA to SFO, HA SFO/HNL

User currently offlineGRUIAD From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24664 times:

I think Hawaiian has greater "closer" higher yielding opportunities in Asia. As the China visa situation improves and open skies evolves - look at how many Chinese cities HA could link into HNL - tons of cities with over 1 million people. That is my hunch where HA will grow.

User currently offlinesweair From Sweden, joined Nov 2011, 1824 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24442 times:

My only memory of Honolulu was a very rude waitress, then the next day we flew to Maui and I loved it, if one goes to Hawaii don't stay on Oahu..

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25346 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24352 times:

Quoting iFlyLOTs (Reply 5):
I am going to go out on a limb here and say, maybe a once a week flight to London as a token
Quoting sevenheavy (Reply 12):
I still say that 13-13.5 hours is entirely realistic for LHR-HNL

LHR-HNL (6289 nm) is 167 nm further than YVR-AKL where NZ 772 block time westbound is 14 hrs.

MEL-DXB (6283 nm) is almost exactly the same distance as LHR-HNL and EK block time westbound (77W) is also 14 hrs.

ATL-ICN (6215 nm) is 74 nm shorter than LHR-HNL and KE block time westbound (77W) is 14:45.

I would agree with others that 13-13.5 hrs as a published block time (gate to gate) for LHR-HNL is a little too short to be realistic. It would be about right eastbound.


User currently offlineConcordski From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24080 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 23):

LHR-HNL (6289 nm) is 167 nm further than YVR-AKL where NZ 772 block time westbound is 14 hrs.

MEL-DXB (6283 nm) is almost exactly the same distance as LHR-HNL and EK block time westbound (77W) is also 14 hrs.

ATL-ICN (6215 nm) is 74 nm shorter than LHR-HNL and KE block time westbound (77W) is 14:45.

I would agree with others that 13-13.5 hrs as a published block time (gate to gate) for LHR-HNL is a little too short to be realistic. It would be about right eastbound.

I don't see why the route can't be flown entirely going East. Looking at Great Circle Mapper, I could see them traveling along the northern edge of Norway on the flight to HNL. I'm not familiar with ETOPS regulations in the northern latitudes or diversion airports there. What ETOPS would be required?


25 Post contains images airproxx : 14hrs block time is a realistic one... I know it may sound unrealistic but I've been "flying" LHR-HNL with a PMDG 747-400 on Flight Simulator X. I wa
26 Post contains images Viscount724 : Not sure what you mean. Europe-HNL is westbound and HNL-Europe is Eastbound. The great circle route crosses Greenland and northern Canada before reac
27 TWA772LR : I think HA could make HNL-LHR and possibly even FRA work. What would help it are connections on the Europe side. I'm positive BA and LH could make the
28 Viscount724 : That type of operation is very costly, especially in crew utilization. A 1x weekly operation means an entire crew spending a week of the company's mo
29 boysteve : The only European airport I could see a direct Hawaii flight working from would be LGW, maybe twice a week on a B787. It has the O&D to support a
30 BMI727 : Europeans coming to Hawaii and Europeans coming to Hawaii nonstop are two different things. Although the Europeans who will travel to Hawaii will like
31 SEA : I know it's purely anecdotal evidence, but everytime I've been in HNL, I've met a good deal of English folks. I also know a couple who recently moved
32 PA727 : This is where I agree with all of the yield comments. Sure HA or several other carriers could fill a non-stop flight, but at what CASM? When discussin
33 LAXintl : This topic sure keeps coming back. One thing one needs to realize is that European tourism to Hawaii is tiny in comparison to other markets. Sure HA c
34 Post contains images airproxx : Why? European travelers already do that when they choose Asia, South Africa or South America destinations. These are vacation destinations in the sam
35 nomorerjs : Let's see HA add cities like DEN, DFW, IAH, ORD before we talk about Europe.
36 AngMoh : This a kind of chicken and egg situation. If you have a good direct flight (14hrs should not be a problem - I fly 13+hrs on a regular basis in 77E Y-
37 sevenheavy : I only mentioned FLYING time, not block time. I would agree that 14 hrs BLOCK is about right. Bear in mind that this is not your regular eastound/wes
38 AAIL86 : Yes, I've noticed that sentiment as well. The majority of Americans prefer to stay inside our borders, so I can see some average Joe assuming that, b
39 LAXintl : Not really, as private airlines are not in the business of developing longhaul markets. Look at how HA is watching China. They are waiting for the ti
40 PlanesNTrains : The only thing I'd say is that "Europe" is a pretty big place. :- ) They need to pick one city to start with. If London, then that's a market of roug
41 HALFA : This topic surfaces all the time with the same predictable responses. Why would anyone travel so far to go to the beach when ______ is just a 2 hour f
42 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : Hmmm... virtually everyone I know has been to Mexico. Ditto Canada. Many to the Caribbean. I know they aren't exotic, overseas destinations but they
43 koruman : Our American cousins keep trotting this one out, don't they? POINT 1: Significant numbers of Europeans already do travel similar distances for tropic
44 skycub : My only memory of Stockholm was a rude waitress. Because of that, I will avoid the whole country.
45 timpdx : Somehow Europeans by the millions tolerate horrid charter conditons mid-long haul that make the domestic US airlines seem downright civilized. if the
46 PlanesNTrains : Was this paragraph even necessary? Somebody had to say it. A rude waitress = don't visit Oahu. Oye. Ya, for a minute I thought everyone flew VS on va
47 COEWR2587 : If HA every wanted to fly to Europe, IMO they would have to get a flat bed on those aircraft's for F. The domestic F seats they have now are not going
48 koruman : But this thread isn't talking about either that demographic or that distance. Firstly, you have to remember that in the UK over 70% of residents have
49 LY777 : Furthermore, Hawaii has an amazing climate all year round: contrary to the Carribeans, there is (almost) no risk of a hurricane: the weather is dry in
50 KiwiRob : Rubbish loads of Europeans fly package to Thailand and Indonesia and aren't interested in a full service product, they just want to get there as chea
51 JerseyFlyer : I'm going London to Hawaii next year - but via Canada so will avoid the "US domestic" experience![Edited 2012-08-31 04:48:59]
52 Post contains links clydenairways : While it's clear that Europeans do travel to Hawaii, they will always be able to get there via the US mainland for much cheaper than what the prices w
53 brilondon : Depends on who you fly. If going by AC, no you will get an older 763 with no proper First from Canada to the Hawaiian Islands which I found to be suf
54 Post contains images LAXintl : I think you have me confused. Australia being in the Asia Pacific region is a much more natural market to Hawaii then Europe would ever be. Also Aust
55 rutankrd : In the late eighties CP-AIr and associated tour companies were selling Hawaii via Vancouver in considerable numbers from the UK with flights from Gat
56 JerseyFlyer : Remember HA's order is, at least currently, for the A350-800. They need the range for something - where else unless Europe?
57 LAXintl : At the time they said they ordered the -800 because its the smallest in capacity. Yes the -800 might have lots of range, but jump to -900 or -1000 was
58 rutankrd : They are a valued Airbus customer and the A350 will give both a pax and cargo uplift from ASIA before serving a vanity project into Europe. Its not a
59 Post contains images tom355uk : Just out of interest, I ran a LHR-HNL flight through a planning utility to see how it looks. Handily, once you are past the north of Scotland there ar
60 clydenairways : I don't think regular non-stop charters will happen either. In mature markets tour operators have actually been moving to cheap rates now available o
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Will JetBlue Fly To Canada, Maybe Partner With WJ posted Thu Sep 15 2005 02:13:17 by Ppostro
Bad News : AF Will Fly To SXM With A340 posted Fri Jan 18 2002 21:23:09 by Too low
Will CO Ever Fly To Europe From The West Coast? posted Thu Aug 31 2000 05:21:32 by Ben88
Will TAM Fly To EWR? posted Thu Apr 12 2012 18:32:55 by N62NA
Will AA Fly To HKG? posted Sun Sep 25 2011 01:34:11 by United Airline
When Will EK Fly To BRU? posted Wed Oct 13 2010 02:39:31 by tmcn
AR Back To Europe With 6 A332s And 7 A346s. posted Sat Oct 17 2009 13:13:46 by FCKC
DL Decides To Stick With Its FC Meal Service posted Mon Mar 23 2009 07:12:41 by Burnsie28
Will UA Fly To Africa? posted Thu Dec 18 2008 19:15:39 by United Airline
Where Will EK Fly To Next In The USA posted Mon Aug 18 2008 11:58:22 by N104UA