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Philippine Relaunch YYZ In November (not Official)  
User currently offlineCityAirline From Sweden, joined Nov 2005, 697 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8011 times:

Philippine Airlines has been going on about relaunching Toronto for a while now, but not until now they have unveiled frequency and specific days of operation, so even though it's not officially announced, I thought it seemed serious enough to share:

http://philippineairspace.blogspot.se/2012/09/pal-flies-toronto.html

The 250,000 Filipinos in Toronto would be served thrice weekly nonstop by the 77W. At the same time, the current YVR/LAS operation will be changed from four weekly MNL-YVR 77W and three weekly MNL-YVR-LAS 343, to four weekly MNL-YVR 77W and three weekly nonstop MNL-LAS 343.

This will mean a reduction of service at YVR from daily to four weekly, although PAL will try to negotiate with Canada for rights to maintain daily operation at YVR.

The new YYZ route and changes at YVR sounds possible and very reasonable to me, but I don't quite understand how they will go through with the changes at LAS without getting their CAT II lifted first.


/Alex


I don't fly to live, I live to fly...
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 7948 times:

A more reliable source:

http://www.interaksyon.com/business/...-pal-plans-premium-economy-seating

Quote:
Even with the US-imposed restrictions, PAL has managed to obtain approval from Canadian authorities to fly to Toronto starting November 28, timed with the delivery of the fourth Boeing 777-300ER.

The Toronto flight would alternate with the now daily Manila-Vancouver flight reduced to three-to-four frequencies a week, Ang said.

PAL also plans to introduce Y+, per the article.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7585 times:

Sorry, I did not see this thread at all. (The subject certainly needs its own thread!)

As was posted in the other thread where this has been mentioned, this seems like an incredibly short lead time for such a long intercontinental route to be started - barely 3 months (and still without a formal/official announcement!)

I do acknowledge that MNL-PR's service to Canada (for the holidays) PLUS the big question regarding Vegas service -- to be done on such a short leash.

Quoting CityAirline (Thread starter):
At the same time, the current YVR/LAS operation will be changed from four weekly MNL-YVR 77W and three weekly MNL-YVR-LAS 343, to four weekly MNL-YVR 77W and three weekly nonstop MNL-LAS 343.


First, PR currently has the winter schedule at MNL-YVR-LAS 4x wkly (2467) with YVR-only op'ing 3x wkly (135.) (To me, the equipment is immaterial.)

Next, I hope someone can explain to me how PR has figured out how to start flying nonstop from MNL to LAS (within 3 months!) I realize PR is not increasing the frequency of their operation in Vegas nor are they changing the a/c, but come on now, adding a new nonstop route directly onto U.S. soil???? When has the FAA gotten around to reinstating PR's Cat I status, and why hasn't that been announced anywhere?

Sorry, I remain totally unconvinced about any of this as it's been presented.

bb

[Edited 2012-09-01 12:21:42]

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 7541 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
I do acknowledge that MNL-PR's service to Canada (for the holidays) PLUS the big question regarding Vegas service -- to be done on such a short leash.

A.net is being a bit strange and it messed up the above paragraph and I couldn't edit it correctly. What I originally said was:
I do acknowledge that PR has talked about YYZ for a long time but for them to completely overhaul their MNL-Canada service (including the upcoming holiday travel season by essentially cutting the YVR-service in half) PLUS the big question about Vegas service, with less than 3 months lead time, is very hard to believe.

bb


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7354 times:

Like I said in the other thread.... Philippine media is not to be trusted. Not saying that YYZ will not happen... but not this November, and not at the expense of YVR frequency which is quite successful for them. And like you said, Cat 2 is the biggest stumbling block to changing LAS service.

Over the last few months, newspapers in the Philippines have reported the following:
-PAL will start flying to LHR/FRA/CDG/FCO/MXP/MAD soon! - Hello? Last time a checked all Philippine carriers are banned in the EU.
-PAL will fly to JFK/ORD/SEA/IAH soon.... and other cities in the US with large FIlipino populations. Again.... Hello??? Cat 2???
-PAL will order more 77W's and the 787. We all know this order went to Airbus... but then again, 46 planes are unaccounted for in their planned order for 100 so there is still hope.

But then again.... it also doesn't help that Ramon Ang made these comments to the papers in Manila. The problem I see though is that the media doesn't fact check - which is a cardinal rule in journalism! They love sensationalism. They might as well be tabloids.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

YYZ-MNL nonstop is 356 nm further than HKG. It would be one of the longest 77W nonstops. Westbound against often strong headwinds, I would expect some payload restrictions (and passengers to MNL usually have a lot of baggage). Such very longhaul nonstops in markets that are almost totally low-yield VFR traffic are seldom profitable.

MNL 7143 nm
HKG 6787 nm (CX uses the 77W and AC the 77L)
DXB-SFO 7041 nm (EK 77W)
DXB-LAX 7246 nm (EK uses 77L, not 77W, on DXB-LAX)

Are there any current 77W nonstop routes longer than 7143 nm?

[Edited 2012-09-01 18:02:30]

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 7286 times:

Hey 'SpeedBird, glad you got on board this thread as well and repeated your thoughts from your other post.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 4):
it also doesn't help that Ramon Ang made these comments to the papers in Manila.

I had many questions about the new guy in charge of PAL when all those statements and promises were being tossed around earlier this year. I wasn't sure if he wasn't aware of the restriction his airline faces concerning flights to the US and Europe, or if he was just making ridiculous statements while ignoring them. I remain unimpressed with the new leadership of this fine airline and am anxious to see how all of these latest rumors play out...

Of course I do realize that none of these recent "articles" and rumors have made any mention of Mr. Ang or of anyone else at the carrier making any statements. And there still has been no official press release so I still remain very sceptical about everything we've seen and read in the last couple of days about the Canada and US route adjustments.

bb


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 7157 times:

Hey SANFan,

The new guy is very much aware of the restrictions on PAL. He's even said that his plans are contingent on the country getting out of Cat 2, and that he's willing to help CAAP by hiring advisors - all paid for by PAL. The problem is that the media ignores these important details. The only thing they report on is the "exciting expansion plans", so the public jumps on the bandwagon.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6815 times:

My responses will be based on observations on the ground, plus the following article published just a few hours ago.

http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/co...realign-canada-flight-entitlements

Quote:
PHILIPPINE Airlines (PAL) is realigning its existing flight entitlements for Vancouver to service another destination in Canada.

PAL President Ramon S. Ang said the flag carrier plans to start servicing the Manila-Toronto route on November 30. “We will serve not only Vancouver but Toronto as well,” he said.

PAL is currently the only airline flying between the Philippines and Canada. It was assigned seven entitlements for the Manila-Vancouver route.

PAL Officer in Charge for Commercial Group Rafael Rollan said the airline will use three of the seven entitlements to service the Manila-Toronto route. The remaining four will be used for services to Vancouver.

“There will be four entitlements for our Manila-Vancouver [route] and the other three will be used to fly Manila to Toronto non-stop. The realignment of flight frequencies will begin on November 30. As we speak, we are finalizing the pricing. Maybe by mid-September the pricing will be uploaded in our web site already,” said Rollan in an interview.

PAL needs an additional seven flight entitlements on top of the existing seven but there are no available entitlements. The Philippine air panel has yet to set talks with its counterpart in Canada, said Rollan. “Ideally, if we can secure another seven or more [entitlements], that is what we want,” he added.

The airline is exhausting all means to secure entitlements to the North American country. Rollan said PAL wrote to Air Canada to ask if PAL could borrow the latter’s entitlements since Air Canada is not flying to Manila.

“We wrote [Air Canada] but they have not responded to us. They have seven unutilized entitlements. Hopefully, they could lend us their frequencies through code-sharing because this arrangement was done before,” said Rollan.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I do acknowledge that PR has talked about MNL-Canada service (including the upcoming holiday travel season by essentially cutting the YVR-service in half) PLUS the big question about Vegas service, with less than 3 months lead time, is very hard to believe.

They seem dead serious on it, apparently. Word is going around on PinoyExchange (where the aviation thread has members who are PAL insiders) that bookings will be accepted by next month.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
Next, I hope someone can explain to me how PR has figured out how to start flying nonstop from MNL to LAS (within 3 months!) I realize PR is not increasing the frequency of their operation in Vegas nor are they changing the a/c, but come on now, adding a new nonstop route directly onto U.S. soil????

The blog in question is reliable in some things, but not so much in others. People are aware of the blog on local aviation fora, but quite a number take it with a grain of salt. Hence why I normally post links from newspapers to corroborate information if I need to.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 4):
PAL will order more 77W's and the 787. We all know this order went to Airbus... but then again, 46 planes are unaccounted for in their planned order for 100 so there is still hope.

There is word going around that some of the remaining 46 planes will go to Boeing, however that remaining half of the order is still under negotiation. 2P's orders may also be included in that tranche of planes.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 4):
The problem I see though is that the media doesn't fact check - which is a cardinal rule in journalism! They love sensationalism. They might as well be tabloids.
Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 7):
The problem is that the media ignores these important details. The only thing they report on is the "exciting expansion plans", so the public jumps on the bandwagon.

The newspapers have reported repetitively (and I mean repetitively) that the Philippines is in Cat II and our airlines are on the EU blacklist, with PR and 5J having the most potential of getting out of the latter. PAL's frustration over Cat II has made quite a number of rounds in local media, so I don't see how you can just accuse Philippine media of not knowing the facts they themselves have published.

I will agree though: in general, our newspapers need to be more reliable and less tabloid-y. But for aviation-related matters (and business news in general), they're quite reliable.

Quoting SANFan (Reply 3):
I do acknowledge that PR has talked about MNL-Canada service (including the upcoming holiday travel season by essentially cutting the YVR-service in half) PLUS the big question about Vegas service, with less than 3 months lead time, is very hard to believe.

As I posted in the link above, either they realign existing Canada service (most likely), Canada grants provisional entitlements (unlikely), or AC "lends" PR its unused entitlements, with provisions for a codeshare agreement (more likely, but not sure).

[Edited 2012-09-02 09:48:14]

User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1516 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6761 times:

Next Question, Can a A340-300 even fly nonstop between MNL and LAS? Westbound you have to
be looking at close to 16hrs. What about high temperatures in LAS for takeoff ability?
With the notoriously slow climb rate, a fully loaded A340 taking off on 100F+ temps wont be at full
cruise level until it reaches the midpoint to Hawaii!



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlinepnwtraveler From Canada, joined Jun 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6713 times:

They will know clearly how many passengers at YVR are connecting from Toronto or other points in Eastern Canada. That I am sure can't be the worth half the flights out of YVR unless for some reason that market is soft. What YYZ would add is cargo and perhaps some other connecting passengers to other South Pacific nations such as Thailand. I would think there would be easier connections for the North East US than through YYZ. It has been rumoured here that PAL is starting service but I am surprized it would be at the expense of YVR, and as always who knows where the information is coming from.

This does coincidently tie in with the current push to increase SEAsia trade and especially oil shipments. So if the rumour is serious I am sure the Canadian government would be amenable to adjust bilaterals and agreements.

It is also rumoured another Chinese airline is going to start late in the year. That has to mean Air China or China Southern, unless I am missing someone. So lots of rumours all the time. Some are based in fact some based on wishful thinking.


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 6606 times:

YYZ-MNL has market yields less than 8cents (vs.12-13 for HKG). This is surely going to be a loss making routes even if PAL reaches a 99% load factor.

User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5400 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6438 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
PR currently has the winter schedule at MNL-YVR-LAS 4x wkly (2467) with YVR-only op'ing 3x wkly (135.) (To me, the equipment is immaterial
Quoting Akiestar (Reply 8):
PAL Officer in Charge for Commercial Group Rafael Rollan said the airline will use three of the seven entitlements to service the Manila-Toronto route. The remaining four will be used for services to Vancouver.

Then I imagine what we'll see is the continuation of the 4x wkly MNL-YVR-LAS service and the transfer of the 3x wkly MNL-YVR flights to YYZ. This I can comprehend as possible.

This still leaves PR with the issue of what to do with all the folks already booked for the winter, including the holidays, on the currently-scheduled daily service between MNL and YVR -- that's a lot of people to move to other flights that are probably already heavily booked! (Unless of course the Christmas and additional winter flights between Manilla and Vancouver are not heavily booked yet.)

Still seems like a very strange business strategy to me but we'll see what happens.

bb


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6359 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 11):
YYZ-MNL has market yields less than 8cents (vs.12-13 for HKG). This is surely going to be a loss making routes even if PAL reaches a 99% load factor.

Have you actually flown from Toronto to MNL before.

As someone who used to fly three to four times a year to MNL from Toronto on business, I can tell you that there are more than a few Canadian companies that operate in the MNL area, and they send people back and forth quite often (manulife, Sun Life, Telus, etc...). Right now, CX and to an extent, AC gets the lion share of that business (all through HKG of course). Add on top, all the call centres that operate for US companies that could potentially use that flight.

I am not saying that the PR service will even match that of CX. But price is king. Even big companies will try to get their staff to fly PR - believe me.


User currently offlineYVRSpeedBird From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6283 times:

Quoting GARUDAROD (Reply 9):
The newspapers have reported repetitively (and I mean repetitively) that the Philippines is in Cat II and our airlines are on the EU blacklist, with PR and 5J having the most potential of getting out of the latter. PAL's frustration over Cat II has made quite a number of rounds in local media, so I don't see how you can just accuse Philippine media of not knowing the facts they themselves have published.

I will agree though: in general, our newspapers need to be more reliable and less tabloid-y. But for aviation-related matters (and business news in general), they're quite reliable.

Actually, it's not accusing the newspapers. I'm reporting the fact that they're ignoring details. Prime example is your own link http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/co...realign-canada-flight-entitlements nothing has been mentioned of Cat 2. The ill-informed public, which includes FA's I've spoken to on my regular MNL-YVR commute, as well as Philippine aviation enthusiasts in other forums, are all singing the praises, hallelujah PR they're expanding etc, etc, etc... These people really need a dose of reality check. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for PR's plans to be realized.


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6268 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 13):
Have you actually flown from Toronto to MNL before.

As someone who used to fly three to four times a year to MNL from Toronto on business, I can tell you that there are more than a few Canadian companies that operate in the MNL area, and they send people back and forth quite often (manulife, Sun Life, Telus, etc...). Right now, CX and to an extent, AC gets the lion share of that business (all through HKG of course). Add on top, all the call centres that operate for US companies that could potentially use that flight.

I am not saying that the PR service will even match that of CX. But price is king. Even big companies will try to get their staff to fly PR - believe me.

YYZMNL corporate/premium market is relatively tiny. It doesnt have the big J demand/premiums that ULRs need (see Tokyo/Beijing/Hong Kong). This is a flawed idea.


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 15):
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 13):
Have you actually flown from Toronto to MNL before.

As someone who used to fly three to four times a year to MNL from Toronto on business, I can tell you that there are more than a few Canadian companies that operate in the MNL area, and they send people back and forth quite often (manulife, Sun Life, Telus, etc...). Right now, CX and to an extent, AC gets the lion share of that business (all through HKG of course). Add on top, all the call centres that operate for US companies that could potentially use that flight.

I am not saying that the PR service will even match that of CX. But price is king. Even big companies will try to get their staff to fly PR - believe me.

YYZMNL corporate/premium market is relatively tiny. It doesnt have the big J demand/premiums that ULRs need (see Tokyo/Beijing/Hong Kong). This is a flawed idea.

Not flawed...Believe me.

The economy in Manila is on turbo charge and the amount of foreign investment is mind boggling. Last November, I did JFK-YYZ-HKG-MNL on AA/CX in first class and there were a few people in Business class doing the YYZ-HKG-MNL on CX.

You are over generalizing that everyone who goes to MNL travels on cheap economy fares - which could apply to many other cities like BGK, etc....

Again, when I worked for one of the largest financial companies in Canada, I traveled there very frequently over a four year span and there was always business pax flying between MNL to YYZ.

I am not comparing MNL to HKG or NRT or PEK....But there's enough business to support a three weekly for sure.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 6125 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 12):
This still leaves PR with the issue of what to do with all the folks already booked for the winter, including the holidays, on the currently-scheduled daily service between MNL and YVR -- that's a lot of people to move to other flights that are probably already heavily booked! (Unless of course the Christmas and additional winter flights between Manilla and Vancouver are not heavily booked yet.)

I'm not sure if this is feasible, but they could permanently station an A340 at YVR for YVR-LAS, then upgrade YVR-MNL to 77W service. As the A340 nears retirement, this may be a good option to increase seats to a level closer to daily MNL-YVR service.

Quoting YVRSpeedBird (Reply 14):
Actually, it's not accusing the newspapers. I'm reporting the fact that they're ignoring details. Prime example is your own link http://businessmirror.com.ph/home/co...realign-canada-flight-entitlements nothing has been mentioned of Cat 2. The ill-informed public, which includes FA's I've spoken to on my regular MNL-YVR commute, as well as Philippine aviation enthusiasts in other forums, are all singing the praises, hallelujah PR they're expanding etc, etc, etc... These people really need a dose of reality check. There are a lot of obstacles to overcome for PR's plans to be realized.

It's not like every article discussing PAL's expansion plans has to mention Cat II and the blacklist, but the media already does that job anyway. Whenever U.S. expansion is discussed in local media, for example, Cat II is almost always mentioned, or it's about how PAL is complaining about how the government is doing nothing. Same with Europe service. (Although with the recent Airbus order, there is a faint hope that PR will be able to secure an exemption from the blacklist so it can restart services to the continent.)

I'll agree that a lot of people ride the bandwagon, but it doesn't mean that there are no people who are aware of the existing situation on the ground.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 10):
They will know clearly how many passengers at YVR are connecting from Toronto or other points in Eastern Canada. That I am sure can't be the worth half the flights out of YVR unless for some reason that market is soft.

I possess no hard data on this, but it is a known fact that there are more Filipinos in the Greater Toronto Area (around 172,000) than in Vancouver (around 79,000). That should be an indicator of something.

[Edited 2012-09-02 23:06:01]

User currently offlineACT7 From Canada, joined Nov 2011, 96 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5963 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 17):
I possess no hard data on this, but it is a known fact that there are more Filipinos in the Greater Toronto Area (around 172,000) than in Vancouver (around 79,000). That should be an indicator of something.

You're right, it's about 180,000 in the GTA to Vancouver's 83,000. That was in 2006.

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All

http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recen...ount&StartRec=1&Sort=3&Display=All

I would argue, as well, that YYZ tends to have more premium traffic in general than YVR. Air Canada has always made mention of that with respect their Asian flights so I would imagine Asian carriers have a similar experience. PAL would also be trying to cater to the U.S.'s substantial Filipino population in NYC, Chicago, etc with its flight to YYZ.


User currently offlineflyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4976 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5837 times:

Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 16):
Not flawed...Believe me.

The economy in Manila is on turbo charge and the amount of foreign investment is mind boggling. Last November, I did JFK-YYZ-HKG-MNL on AA/CX in first class and there were a few people in Business class doing the YYZ-HKG-MNL on CX.

You are over generalizing that everyone who goes to MNL travels on cheap economy fares - which could apply to many other cities like BGK, etc....

Again, when I worked for one of the largest financial companies in Canada, I traveled there very frequently over a four year span and there was always business pax flying between MNL to YYZ.

I am not comparing MNL to HKG or NRT or PEK....But there's enough business to support a three weekly for sure.
Quoting yegbey01 (Reply 16):
Not flawed...Believe me.

The economy in Manila is on turbo charge and the amount of foreign investment is mind boggling. Last November, I did JFK-YYZ-HKG-MNL on AA/CX in first class and there were a few people in Business class doing the YYZ-HKG-MNL on CX.

You are over generalizing that everyone who goes to MNL travels on cheap economy fares - which could apply to many other cities like BGK, etc....

Again, when I worked for one of the largest financial companies in Canada, I traveled there very frequently over a four year span and there was always business pax flying between MNL to YYZ.

I am not comparing MNL to HKG or NRT or PEK....But there's enough business to support a three weekly for sure.

The average recorded market fare for YYZMNL is less than $500 one-way. This includes the mix of the premium traffic you refer to, and the overwhelmingly price sensitive VFR travel. That delivers a yield of less than 6cents and a RASM of less than 6 cents. If PR can produce a CASM of less than 6 cents - then we good. But very doubtful.

Fueling up a 777 for a 15 hour mission is extremely expensive - and there's a reason why ULRs pretty much stick to Beijing/Shanghai and some Hong Kong.


User currently offlinesebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5801 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 8):

The airline is exhausting all means to secure entitlements to the North American country. Rollan said PAL wrote to Air Canada to ask if PAL could borrow the latter’s entitlements since Air Canada is not flying to Manila.

I found this quote from the article interesting. How does Air Canada transfer its "entitlement" to a foreign airline without those entitlements counting as frequencies for the foreign carrier?

I have never heard of this and there is no precedent I can remember for it. AC can code share on a PR flight, or it can operate its own flights and have PR code-share on them, but since international frequencies are not the express property of the airline, but strictly speaking belong to their governments, I'd like to know what the heck this really means. In some cases, foreign airlines have asked Air Canada to support requests to the Canadian government for additional frequencies - PK has such an arrangement that Air Canada supports in lieu of express bilateral authority. With Air Canada's support, the Canadian government has granted PK more frequencies and more liberal use of them (abolishing the obligation to serve YUL, for example).

So PR can ask AC to support a request for more frequencies, but that would be an ad hoc process that has nothing to do with AC's entitlements under the Canada-Phillippines bilateral.


User currently offlineyegbey01 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

Quoting flyyul (Reply 19):
The average recorded market fare for YYZMNL is less than $500 one-way. This includes the mix of the premium traffic you refer to, and the overwhelmingly price sensitive VFR travel. That delivers a yield of less than 6cents and a RASM of less than 6 cents. If PR can produce a CASM of less than 6 cents - then we good. But very doubtful

You have a source for this info? $500 each way!

So how much money has CX been losing then? They might as well stop flying pax into MNL.

I don't claim to have actual figures, but I was providing my anecdotal observations as I have flown the MNL-YYZ in business class at least 25 times between 2004 and 2011. Now would I give up flying CX or AC and not collect the miles - maybe not. But not everyone has the luxury of choosing their preferred carrier when your employer is shelling 10k for the flight.

I wonder how the YVR run is doing then for PR? That's also a long haul flight and I don't think YVR generates higher yields than YYZ.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5605 times:

didnt know PR served YYZ before, when was this?

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25117 posts, RR: 22
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 5577 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 22):
didnt know PR served YYZ before, when was this?

PR has never served YYZ as far as I know.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5571 times:

^ And yet no one has bothered to correct this mistake in the entire discussion.

25 Akiestar : I'm guessing they served YYZ some time prior to the Asian financial crisis. Probably for less than a year, which is why most people don't remember it
26 ACT7 : Yes, a source would be good. Do you mean posted fares? Posted fares generally tend to be lower than what the average passenger pays, not to mention t
27 flyyul : Market size databases such as MIDT, PAX-IS etc. Even if you think the fare is understated by 15-20% for premium, the RASM on a flight like this needs
28 iflypal : Toronto was never served on PAL metal-- Toronto however, was planned as a code share arrangement with Canadian Airlines International (aka CPAir) . Ph
29 Post contains links ACT7 : A small update on the PAL route, set to begin November 30th... http://ttgasia.com/article.php?article_id=4332 Quote: Philippine Airlines told TTG Asia
30 Post contains images SANFan : Another interesting turn. Does that make sense under the regulations and service limits? If PR has 7 entitlements, does that allow stops, essentially
31 ACT7 : Maybe LAS is on the chopping block. There was no mention of 11 weekly flights to YVR - it specifically says that there will be a reduction of service
32 Akiestar : LAS is a profitable station for PAL and it would be madness for them to cut it, especially while the Philippines is under Cat II.
33 ACT7 : Fair enough. Then it's tough to explain the rerouting. Nowhere does it say YVR will be 11 weekly.
34 SANFan : I just rethought this and I was wrong. (Bad math.) There will be 7 weekly departures from YVR to MNL but perhaps PR will NOT be permitted to carry lo
35 ACT7 : I still think that's wrong. Reduction doesn't imply increase. PR has some 'splainin' to do in order to clarify this.
36 sebring : The most likely scenario is that it will operate YYZ-YVR-MNL with a blind sector between Toronto and Vancouver - no local, domestic traffic. That's b
37 MEL : correct, Cathay did operate YYZ-YVR-HKG temporarily with the A340-300 about 10 years ago. Are there any other sectors around the world that have fligh
38 Viscount724 : Air China also did it for a while when they first started service to Canada long ago. They used a 747SP originally. I recall watching it take off fro
39 SANFan : Please note that I was not questioning local traffic between YYZ and YVR. I stated in my earlier reply: I now realize that the end of that post ("and
40 pnwtraveler : Except that the Canadian government has made a real push for free-er and free trade with the South Pacific Nations. It is clearly a priority particul
41 Akiestar : The horse's mouth in this case is Ramon Ang, and he has already said on several occasions that PR will fly to YYZ. I think that's proof enough that t
42 YVRSpeedBird : And he also said a few months ago that PAL will purchase 787's & more 77W's. Until an official announcement is made, with schedules released and
43 Post contains links and images Devilfish : Perhaps he is also waiting for the "better" Triple 7?..... http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...x-end-decade-service-entry-376096/ Quote: "Several
44 Post contains images Akiestar : BUMP-ing because of some breaking news from FlyerTalk. PR is starting YYZ on November 30, with flights now visible on KVS. Flights will depart three t
45 pnwtraveler : With the current government push to expand Southeast Asia connections this route might work. If the Free Trade push with the Pacific Rim gains ground
46 flyyul : This is such an experience operation for such a low yield market. I give this route less than a year to survive. Unfortunately a.netters don't underst
47 Akiestar : And I read a newspaper article this morning calling the Philippines the new "darling" of international investors. Low-yielding now, but I bet yields
48 YVRSpeedBird : Couldn't agree with you more. Remember, YYZ is only a consolation prize. Those 77W's were intended for LAX/SFO double daily, and to eliminate the GUM
49 thenoflyzone : MNL-YYZ will be the 7th longest route in the world based on distance, coming in at 13,230 km. 1. SQ21 EWR-SIN 15,345km 2. SQ37 LAX-SIN 14,114km 3. QF7
50 Post contains images Akiestar : I find this entire statement utterly incredulous. PR's network (both domestic and international) is already solely concentrated on MNL, excluding 2P a
51 YVRSpeedBird : Yes there are multi-terminal hubs out there, but making MNL the same defeats the purpose. It's fine if they can make it work with shuttle services ev
52 Akiestar : You know PR offers an airside shuttle service for people transferring between Terminals 2 and 3 on PR/2P, right? This will not happen so long as PR i
53 thenoflyzone : EK used to send the B77W on DXB-LAX, coming in at 7,246nm. As of Aug 1, that flight has been canceled, leaving only the 77L into LAX. Supposed to be a
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