futurestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 211 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 14667 times:
Hey!
Just re-joined airliners.net after a few years of absence! And I wanna bring up a topic I've been wondering about for a while now. With the current economy situation and the axing of destinations in Europe, I thought that re-introducing triangle flights using B757 equipment could make sense for the big US players. They could also reach destinations which are too far east for a 757 to make the westbound leg. I would think that VIE would be a good example. A 757 could do the eastbound leg with ease, with flight times of around 8 hours at the most, the eastbound flight wouldnt be a problem for a 757. And it could stop at some destination in the UK or BRU or whereever would be a good point to start the westbound trip over the Atlantic Ocean. And VIE has always been that kind of destination which is interesting, but just not profitable enough to justify nonstop-service for US carriers with widebody aircraft, but it's too far east for a 757 to offer nonstop service to the US.
thijs1984 From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 49 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14542 times:
RTM could also forfill thesame role as BRU in this case. And RTM is still a untapped marked, there is a lot of potential out of RTM (however that is changing fast now with the new flights of BA an LH which will start soon)
nickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1457 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14521 times:
VIE and destinations in the UK seem a bit far away for a triangle route. I can not imagine too many passengers would want to board a flight from the US to the UK via Vienna! I could see this possibly working if it involved other cities closer to VIE that do not currently have service to the US like BSL? I assume that BSL is within 757 range of NE US.
futurestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14504 times:
Quoting thijs1984 (Reply 1): untapped marked, there is a lot of potential
Any airport that is like RTM would be possible I guess. A lot of potential, short ways, less crowded and no competition offering nonstop service to the US.
futurestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14494 times:
Quoting nickofatlanta (Reply 2): VIE and destinations in the UK seem a bit far away for a triangle route.
That's true, especially since cities in the UK are pretty well covered with nonstops to the US. But with smaller towns in Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium... I think that could work. I just used UK as an example really.
richierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4022 posts, RR: 6 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13947 times:
Quoting futurestar68 (Thread starter): With the current economy situation and the axing of destinations in Europe, I thought that re-introducing triangle flights using B757 equipment could make sense for the big US players.
I agree with your idea, it could work for some smaller markets that are just out of range of the B757 on the westbound leg. However I think there are too many political hurdles involved for a triangle route to work (taxes, landing fees, etc.) and from a customer perspective there are too many non-stop options to make it viable. Essentially the airline is selling a B757 non-stop flight on one leg and a one-stop (same seat) flight on the other... that's not very enticing.
frmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 13868 times:
Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?
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planeguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1066 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 13557 times:
ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 581 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12995 times:
What happens very often is your intra EU leg flies half full at best or full of deep discount airfares. You already get good aircraft utilization US-EU flights, only 1 aircraft is needed with minimal turn around, there is not that much of need to keep further keep it in the air.
Cool idea, but with alliances these days it seems to make more sense to just work with BA, LH, AF/KL etc to get to these smaller cities
jetsetter629 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 409 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11452 times:
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 7): I only see this working if US could get 5th Freedom rights and I believe that to be unlikely. Something like PHL-VIE-BHX-PHL.
Speaking of which, US flew to BHX for a summer with their 752s. I can't imagine it was a very profitable route as it was cut only after one season
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21454 posts, RR: 24 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 11300 times:
Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 7): I only see this working if US could get 5th Freedom rights and I believe that to be unlikely.
Not correct. All US carriers have unlimited 5th freedom rights on international sectors anywhere within the EU (and beyond, assuming the 3rd country outside Europe also grants 5th freedom rights) under the US-EU Open Skies agreement. The exception within Europe is domestic sectors entirely within the same country where they can't carry local traffic.
Similarly, all EU-based carriers have 5th freedom rights anywhere beyond the USA, again assuming they have the same rights from the 3rd country involved.
However, even with 5th freedom rights, the suggested triangle operation would be very uneconomic as you would only be operating the intra-Europe sector in one direction. Hardly anyone is flying one way only. And 5th freedom tag-on sectors have to be timed with the transatlantic service in mind. They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.
The days of that type of operation are over. The costs of operating the additional sector in Europe would kill the profitability of the rest of the route. Much better to use your alliance partners to points that can't be served economically nonstop in both directions.
CO 757-300 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 319 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 10398 times:
wouldn't this be totally pointless in the age of the TATL joint venture?
UA now makes the same amount of money routing a passenger EWR-FRA then on LH through to VIE as it would on EWR-BRU-VIE one stop service. conversely, as does LH.
the only potential financial benefit this could have would be the ability to charge a premium over competitors for a marketed same-plane service (assuming- which would not really be so due to the need to enter EU customs at the first arrival port)
on a side note- i'd say VIE would be a good 787 candidate from EWR.
ogshelly From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 26 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 8912 times:
I think they should retire the 757 and offer a better bird to cross the pond, such as the A330, and soon the 787. Flying the 757 going to Europe made me feel like flying in a cheap low cost airline.
brj From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 258 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8631 times:
Quoting frmrCapCadet (Reply 6):
Are or have there been there any such triangular routes in the world? And how well did they work?
Alitalia has been running the triangle route (FCO-LOS-ACC-FCO) for many years, so I assume it works well for them.
Flight number: AZ844
From: Rome (FCO)
Departure time 14:40
To: Lagos (LOS)
Arrival time 19:25
From: Lagos (LOS)
Departure time 20:45
To: Accra (ACC)
Arrival time 20:50
Arrival day: Same Day
--------------------------------------------------------
Flight number: AZ845
From: Lagos (LOS)
Departure time 20:45
To: Accra (ACC)
Arrival time 20:50
Arrival day: Same Day
From: Accra (ACC)
Departure time 22:50
To: Rome (FCO)
Arrival time 06:25
Arrival day: Next Day
Fly2yyz From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 964 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 8388 times:
TS has been operating a YYZ-EXT-NCL-YYZ route. I don't see why we are looking at multi-national triangle flight. Something such as a PHL-NCE-LYO-PHL could be a possibility for instance.
frmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7918 times:
Interesting - thanks. Triangular routes are a little like the 3 planetary problem in physics - a little difficult. They can be categorized in a variety of ways. One long leg plus a short leg. Two long legs plus a short leg. I suspect that what makes them rare is a 737/320 hop is likely cheaper most of time. It would be interesting to see a study as to where and how they are the better solution.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
fishmeal From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 61 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6611 times:
This was years ago and not involving a 757, but in 1983 we boarded a Pan Am 747 in Zurich that had just landed after an overnight from JFK. We flew to Munich where they herded us all off the plane while it was cleaned up for the return to JFK. For some reason I still have the unopened bottle of schnapps that I bought in the Munich duty free shop.
futurestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 211 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6203 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10): They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.
I don't agree on that. If you have that flight depart at let's say EWR at 4:30pm, it will arrive in VIE at around 6am, which gives you plenty connections to the morning bank from VIE to various destinations in Europe, of which especially the eastern Europe destinations will be of interest, and you could turn around a 757 within an hour or a bit more than an hour, which will give you a 7ish departure from VIE to the other city in Europe, where it'll arrive between 8 and 9, depending on which city you chose. So that's right at peak time. And slots is not a problem since we're talking about smaller airports here. Add another hour and a half there, and you'll have a 10 or 10:30 departure to EWR, and an arrival time there at around 12:30/1pm, which will give you plenty of connections there too. And you need only 1 plane for that too.
I think it could work. But I'm guessing the airlines know why they don't offer such a flight.
Quoting CO 757-300 (Reply 11):
on a side note- i'd say VIE would be a good 787 candidate from EWR.
That would be wonderful. But not gonna happen since OS will start service to EWR next year, and I can't see UA offering a second daily flight to VIE.
In all these routes the second and third cities in the triangle are maybe 1 hour flight distance tops, I think that’s the key to make it work (short flying distance).
adriaticflight From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2492 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
However, even with 5th freedom rights, the suggested triangle operation would be very uneconomic as you would only be operating the intra-Europe sector in one direction
I think that tells all we need to know. With the high cost of fuel, the huge number of LCCs that link almost every country in Europe and the fact that nearly every commercial airport in Europe is 1 short hop away from a major hub means that this kind of flight will no longer make money. Back in the 1980s when political issues and a very restrictive market meant that triangle flights made sense. Personally i can't see any routes from the USA that would be particularly profitable as a triangle route that aren't already flown. Perhaps some charters but these by default don't have high yields. Triangle flights will remain in parts of the world where politics and geography necessitate it. Central Asia, South America and most of all Africa will retain triangle flights but Europe is so densely populated and so small as to negate any reason for these flights. On forums like these we often forget that Europe is small and packed with people who are (for the overwhelming majority) motivated by cost. If it was cheaper to operate flights stopping in multiple European cities believe me airlines would do it. The reality is that it is not.
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21454 posts, RR: 24 Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2096 times:
Quoting futurestar68 (Reply 18): Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 10):
They intra-Europe sector will rarely be at peak demand times for traffic within Europe.
I don't agree on that. If you have that flight depart at let's say EWR at 4:30pm, it will arrive in VIE at around 6am, which gives you plenty connections to the morning bank from VIE to various destinations in Europe, of which especially the eastern Europe destinations will be of interest, and you could turn around a 757 within an hour or a bit more than an hour, which will give you a 7ish departure from VIE to the other city in Europe, where it'll arrive between 8 and 9, depending on which city you chose. So that's right at peak time.
But the question remains, who is going to book a carrier that only flies a route in one direction? And in my opinion a 7 AM transatlantic departure is much too early to be commercially viable, which is why there are virtually no such flights today.
frmrCapCadet From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1501 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 1870 times:
I could imagine a sort of triangle: Seattle and Portland to Barcelona say. Alternating days. Code share with Alaska (?) covering the hop for those who needed specific days. The code share would likely be way cheaper than flying a transcontinental on the Portland - Seattle segment. The big question, are the two towns provoding close enough to equal passengers to maintain the triangle, or would a 40/60 split get resolved by all flights from the bigger city?
Or Seattle to Rome/Barcelona with the same sort of arrangement. God forbid Ryan air provides the hops!
I cannot imagine equal leg hops working. A fantasy route flying the jet stream? Seattle - Tel Aviv - Bankok - Seattle! Fun for those wanting to go around the world, but cannot see how it would pencil out.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
25 RWA380: The close proximity of SEA and PDX make it an attractive triangle market. So far no carrier has done an Intl triangle between PDX and SEA. There have
26 rogercamel: This route probably works because there are still many pax who would rather stay on an Alitalia plane than use an African carrier for an intra-Africa
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