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Iranian Airlines And Embargo...  
User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6272 times:

What is the deal with current embargoes from US and EU against airlines from Iran (Iran Air, Mahan Air, etc.)? What I understood:

USA -
With more than 10% US content no product may be delivered to Iran. This prohibits pretty much any delivery of a new aircraft, both Airbus and Boeing to Iran, when at least for the engines there is no choice but to take US produced engines.
Airlines to Iran are allowed to fly through US airspace (e.g. to reach Venezuela), however do not have traffic rights at the moment to the US (because of embargo?).

Question: What happens if e.g. Iran Air has to use JFK as an alternate? Would they be allowed under the current embargo to fly to the US?

EU -
Mahan Air was banned in 2007 to 2008, now they have again traffic rights to EU and are allowed to fly through EU airspace.
Otherwise no embargo, as long as the products are only for civil use (which can be assumed with Iran Air, Mahan Air, etc.).

Question: Can an airline in Iran legally buy a 2nd hand aircraft, e.g. like they did with some A300 from Lufthansa in the past? Or is this violating an EU embargo? I assume, a 2nd hand product can not violate a US embargo anymore, as it was sold from the EU in such a case.

Thanks for your thoughts on this difficult, but interesting topic!

36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinefuturestar68 From Austria, joined May 2004, 235 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

Quoting Setjet (Thread starter):
Question: What happens if e.g. Iran Air has to use JFK as an alternate?

I would say JFK Tower would immediately give them the clearance to land and the passengers will be taken care of. It'd be about a civil aircraft, with civil people on it, in no way can I see America not letting an aircraft in an emergency situation land at one of their airports.

Wasn't there an emergency landing of a Delta a/c in Iran not too long ago? I'm not sure if it was Delta or some other US airline.


User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 6220 times:

Quoting Setjet (Thread starter):
With more than 10% US content no product may be delivered to Iran this prohibits pretty much any delivery of a new aircraft, both Airbus and Boeing to Iran, when at least for the engines there is no choice but to take US produced engines.

Correct, however aircraft older then 7 years can be purchased by Iran however only through a 3rd party, so no direct sales by Airbus or Boeing. It is a somewhat moot point as there probably are enough countries/companies who rather turn away any such business rather then risk any sort of US attention/reaction.

Obvisouly the embargoes also severly impact obtaining any spare parts.

Quoting Setjet (Thread starter):
Question: What happens if e.g. Iran Air has to use JFK as an alternate? Would they be allowed under the current embargo to fly to the US?

No aircraft in a genuine emergency will be turned away, ever. Having said that there won't ever be a flightplan with an alternate airport in the US, it wouldn't be legal or accepted. Secondly, I'm having a hard time imaging any current route where IR would ever be in the position to even think about a US airport as an alternate.



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Well, at least for their yearly flight from Iran to Venezuela (to see a good friend of Iran) Iran Air is not only flying through US airspace (at least, what I heard, also makes sense looking at a map), they are also "legally" using US airports as alternates. Without US alternates I believe flights from Iran to Venezuela would not be possible, simply because of distances...

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 5916 times:
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Iranair make occasional visits to JFK on UN business subject to pre clearance.

The really painful sanctions are those on Financial transactions imposed by the US and UK that effectively prevent Iran completing any purchases through leading institutions

Currently Iran can only rely on Russian and China and a diminishing list of friends in the region and Venezuela !

Fuel is sourced from Russian companies in a number of central European countries Hungary and Serbia for flights by Iranair operating from London Paris Amsterdam Hamburg Copenhagen and Madrid


User currently offlineaklrno From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 5806 times:

Do flights to Venezuela cross over Cuba? In an emergency they would be allowed into Guantanamo if that was required.

If that were to happen, could the US Navy then screen passengers before boarding them for the next flight? Could they detain them?


User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5566 times:

That yearly visit to Venezuela would probably be exempted as a diplomatic flight seeing it's a head of state visit, same as the flights to NY for the UN meetings. If they should divert to the US they would be covered by the same diplomatic treaties, screening & being detained would not come into play.


I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5218 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5557 times:

Quoting 9MMPQ (Reply 6):
That yearly visit to Venezuela would probably be exempted as a diplomatic flight seeing it's a head of state visit, same as the flights to NY for the UN meetings

Dont they have a scheduled service to Venezuela using the 747SP?


User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5486 times:

It seems indeed that the 747SP is not even touching US airspace. I however heard that the SP will not be operated anymore on these routes, with their A300 / A340 range is obviously different, and then again a flight through US airspace might be the only possibility (resulting in US airports being planned and filed as alternates).

The remark about fuel sourcing Hungary and Serbia for their European flight seems interesting:
I can hardly imagine that the have a fuel stop in e.g. Belgrade on their Teheran-Hamburg flight. If so, leading to the next question: When they are in Hamburg, do they get local catering, cleaning, technical support etc.?


User currently offlineg500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5464 times:
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A better question would be

How exactly is Iran Air staying in business? Its got to be supported by the government, but how long can that last? and where do they get those parts for those old boeing aircraft they operate?


User currently offlinechieft From Germany, joined Jun 2005, 357 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5391 times:
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Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
I can hardly imagine that the have a fuel stop in e.g. Belgrade on their Teheran-Hamburg flight. If so, leading to the next question: When they are in Hamburg, do they get local catering, cleaning, technical support etc.?

Well, that is the reality for Iran Air.The HAM-IKA flight stops for fuel eihter in Vienna, Belgrade, Kiev.

In HAM is about no technical support, but catering and cleaning is possible.



Aircraft are marginal costs with wings.
User currently offline9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 316 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5366 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 7):
Dont they have a scheduled service to Venezuela using the 747SP?

I'm fairly certain that was cancelled in either 2010 or 2011. There's still a tripreport on the flight on here:

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-articles/read.main?id=108



I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8726 posts, RR: 43
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5345 times:

Quoting Setjet (Reply 8):
I can hardly imagine that the have a fuel stop in e.g. Belgrade on their Teheran-Hamburg flight.

They fill up at IKA, fly to the destination and make a fuel stop on the way back to IKA. The passengers stay onboard.

Quoting Setjet (Reply 8):
When they are in Hamburg, do they get local catering, cleaning, technical support etc.?

Little, if anything, I should imagine. They do carry a lot of staff members on the flights to the EU, whom I presume to be mechanics and engineers. With nothing but their A300s (and a single 737, IIRC) allowed into EU airspace, they must be working very hard indeed to keep them in sufficient condition.

Quoting g500 (Reply 9):
How exactly is Iran Air staying in business?

When people face adversary situations, they make full use of their problem-solving skills...   I'm certain that those of the Iran Air staff are very well developed at this stage.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5320 times:

Rather strange embargo: Being allowed to fly between EU (HAM; ARN,...)and Iran, however not being allowed to get fuel.

How weird is this. Makes no sense, not commercially, not for the environment,...


User currently offlinesolarflyer22 From US Minor Outlying Islands, joined Nov 2009, 1109 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5126 times:

Quoting Setjet (Thread starter):
Question: Can an airline in Iran legally buy a 2nd hand aircraft, e.g. like they did with some A300 from Lufthansa in the past? Or is this violating an EU embargo? I assume, a 2nd hand product can not violate a US embargo anymore, as it was sold from the EU in such a case.

Not really. The sanctions are kind of a red herring and its so complex that its almost impossible to figure out what's actually legal.

Quoting futurestar68 (Reply 1):
Wasn't there an emergency landing of a Delta a/c in Iran not too long ago? I'm not sure if it was Delta or some other US airline.

Yes, there was a medical emergency and everyone ignores the sanctions when thats the case. Someone on the plane had a heart attack but survived fortunately.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 4):
The really painful sanctions are those on Financial transactions imposed by the US and UK that effectively prevent Iran completing any purchases through leading institutions

Winner!

I tried to figure out why they could not buy 7 year old planes and this is exactly the reason. The loop holes they created they turned around and closed in other areas. They cannot wire money, insure a delivery, buy parts, use SWIFT or do anything. They cannot buy gas, they cannot service or engage in any financial transaction or that entity will be violating US sanctions and may be severely penalized, including jail. The same financial restrictions restrict medicine and food imports. Everything is actually illegal in practice since you can't convert Iranian currency or accept payments. Not only that, the sanctions call out any entity supported by the government and Mahan Air by name. IranAir of course is stated sponsored.

Quoting Setjet (Reply 13):
How weird is this. Makes no sense, not commercially, not for the environment,...

No it doesn't and it has nothing to do with their weapons program. Planes will crash because of this. The real tragedy is that the US is actually breaking ICAO and international aviation treaties that support aviation safety. Also , they are basically lying to the world by saying the sanctions are only targeting the regime when in fact they are not. They probably have 1 million passengers a year.


User currently offlinemjabbasi From Pakistan, joined Nov 2007, 31 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4961 times:

From what I know, IR buys spares for its Airbus/Boeing planes in bulk from airlines like AF, LH etc. Those airlines used to operate the A300, 707, 727, 737, 747-100/200 etc and have/had alot of surplus parts they had no use for so whenever possible, IR picked up whatever they need in bulk.

User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4902 times:
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Quoting mjabbasi (Reply 15):
From what I know, IR buys spares for its Airbus/Boeing planes in bulk from airlines like AF, LH etc. Those airlines used to operate the A300, 707, 727, 737, 747-100/200 etc and have/had alot of surplus parts they had no use for so whenever possible, IR picked up whatever they need in bulk

Can't even do that legally , as how do they pay/finance those transactions ?

The US/UK financial sanctions almost totally outlaw any business with Iranian Government agencies and the Iranian Banking institutions.

The sanctions extend to subsidiaries of Banks and other financial vehicles in ANY third country or registered off shore and where the same group trades in the USA or London.

In fact several UK banks and their subsidiaries are currently under investigation and/or have been fined for completing on relatively small and old deals !

The US penalties for breaches are unlimited financial fines and potential very long prison sentences for directors implicated/found guilty.

The depth of THESE sanctions are immense on the Iranian Economy and way deeper than any previously imposed anywhere and at any time.

Iran is economically unable to function ,excepting the sale of oil/gas to Russia/China directly for government credits.
legally no cash and certainly no dollars.

Iran is crippled.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5218 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4880 times:

Quoting Setjet (Reply 8):
I can hardly imagine that the have a fuel stop in e.g. Belgrade on their Teheran-Hamburg flight. If so, leading to the next question: When they are in Hamburg, do they get local catering, cleaning, technical support etc.?

It is true, at least the FRA flight, and I think Stockholm as well, use BUD for refueling. The A300's( or A310, not sure.. )always fly low past my house. I assume normal catering , maintenance, cleaning etc is done in FRA and ARN since there is no ban on doing it there.


User currently offlinemaxthrusta330 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4846 times:

Quoting Setjet (Thread starter):

Question: Can an airline in Iran legally buy a 2nd hand aircraft, e.g. like they did with some A300 from Lufthansa in the past? Or is this violating an EU embargo? I assume, a 2nd hand product can not violate a US embargo anymore, as it was sold from the EU in such a case.

Technically they can, but it needs to be done the right way.

When it's not done correctly, things like this happen:

Ex-United B747-400s Destined For Mahan Air? (by PlaneHunter Nov 18 2006 in Civil Aviation)



http://www.4-5.co.uk/news/index.cfm?id=2417

For those unfamiliar with the Mahan Air - Blue Sky debacle, the beautiful condition, low cycles Boeing 747-400's that cost Mahan Air an absolute fortune are now rotting away on the scrap heap. Very sad  


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5867 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4829 times:

^ I though all three are still with Mahan in full Mahan livery parked in Tehran, this pic is a surprise.

User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4804 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 16):
Iran is economically unable to function ,excepting the sale of oil/gas to Russia/China directly for government credits. legally no cash and certainly no dollars.

So how do airlines like LH and KL that serve IKA pay for landing fees, fuel, catering, etc? Does the FRA-IKA or AMS-IKA flight carry enough for the round trip or do they also stop on the way?


User currently offlineIR800 From Iran, joined May 2009, 47 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4787 times:

Quoting 777way (Reply 19):
I though all three are still with Mahan in full Mahan livery parked in Tehran

The 3 frames you mentioned are EP-MNA (ex-N176UA), EP-MNB (ex-N172UA) and EP-MNC (ex-N190UA), which are currently stored at IKA (not sure about EP-MNA).
The 3 other frames (N106UA, N185UA & N192UA) were ceased in Korea and never came to Iran.

[Edited 2012-09-06 07:32:37]

User currently offlineSetjet From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 14):
I tried to figure out why they could not buy 7 year old planes and this is exactly the reason. The loop holes they created they turned around and closed in other areas. They cannot wire money, insure a delivery, buy parts, use SWIFT or do anything. They cannot buy gas, they cannot service or engage in any financial transaction or that entity will be violating US sanctions and may be severely penalized, including jail. The same financial restrictions restrict medicine and food imports. Everything is actually illegal in practice since you can't convert Iranian currency or accept payments. Not only that, the sanctions call out any entity supported by the government and Mahan Air by name. IranAir of course is stated sponsored.

While this is true for US-Iran deals, I believe it is not true for EU-Iran deals. The current EU embargo is focused in "military purposes", so any civil entity is excempt from that. And as you can not do a lot military-wise with an A300 (usually), Mahan Air is not falling under the EU-Iran embargo. At least as far as I know.

Explains why e.g. Lufthansa was able to sell some A300 to Iran. It also explains why airlines from Iran are still flying to destinations in the EU, why you buy tickets in the EU with an Iranian airline, etc. However it does not explain why an Iranian airline can not get fuel in the EU.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 20):
So how do airlines like LH and KL that serve IKA pay for landing fees, fuel, catering, etc? Does the FRA-IKA or AMS-IKA flight carry enough for the round trip or do they also stop on the way?

No fuel stops for Lufthansa flights from / to Iran, no idea however if they refuel in IKA.


User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 3016 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4737 times:
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Quoting Quokkas (Reply 20):
So how do airlines like LH and KL that serve IKA pay for landing fees, fuel, catering, etc? Does the FRA-IKA or AMS-IKA flight carry enough for the round trip or do they also stop on the way?

BA (BD) fuel and cater in Yerevan
KL Cater out and in and fuel in Athens on return
LH use long haul and tank out/back Germany
OS and AZ not sure.

All other EU carriers service suspended.

Fee may get paid in Euro cheque or even Euro cash !


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5218 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4728 times:

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 23):
LH use long haul and tank out/back Germany

That must cost them a small fortune, is this flight profitable or more a prestige route?


25 ushermittwoch : Not sure if they make money, but I assume they do, since they are sending a 744 there.
26 chieft : There is a very high demand on this route as a lot of natice Iranians are living also in Germany. It is a very profitable route for LH and the aircra
27 777way : Venezuela-Iran service is gone, neither Iran air nor Conviasa operate the route, they have also stopped code sharing. Thanks, didnt know they were ge
28 Post contains links Viscount724 : A NW DC-10-30 en route from BOM to AMS diverted to THR in 2005 due to a false fire warning in the cargo hold. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...
29 9MMPQ : Actually the fueling issue in Iran is not a direct result of the various embargoes. With IR finding it harder and harder to get refuelled in European
30 rutankrd : Catch 22 scenario .EU carriers cannot use normal payment methods for fear of breaching the US/UK lead financial sanctions, however yes they could in
31 ushermittwoch : Not sure when they started sending the 744 over to IKA, but Flightaware states that it has been since at least May.
32 9MMPQ : I'm thinking it's probably a bit different. I just have a hard time seeing crews flying in with all the money to pay for ATC, landing & other han
33 IR800 : Since 31 Oct 2010. And before that they used to send A346 to IKA.[Edited 2012-09-07 04:46:26]
34 maxthrusta330 : Given the industrial and commercial cooperation between both countries, the flights appeared to make sense. Any idea why the flights have stopped?
35 Post contains links rutankrd : I did point out those countries and institutions in reply 4 above however that then prevents those banks or other financial institutions trading with
36 rutankrd : Because they were a purely political stunt. Conviasa's A340 is on EU black list as are ALL Iranairs true long range 74L/741/742 aircraft. Iranair sto
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