airboe From San Marino, joined Jan 2011, 29 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 21034 times:
Now we All know MOL again:
[i]
"We are in ongoing discussions with Boeing and as soon as we can reach an agreement on price we'll place an order. It could be the -800 or the Max, whichever they discount the most - we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough.[i]
MY guess is (take it for what it is worth) - they will make a deal of two reasons:
1: Ryanair need new planes bought at "reasonable" prices in their business model
2: BCA would love a solid order for let's say 150 of the 738 to keep the lines running smooth until the MAX is up and running. And I guess they will order for 100 MAX-8 A's well - to keep Comac out of the market.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 2, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20910 times:
Quoting airboe (Thread starter): BCA would love a solid order for let's say 150 of the 738 to keep the lines running smooth until the MAX is up and running.
They dont need Ryanair's order to keep the lines running smooth, and Ryanair knows it. (See AS and WN orders.....)
Quoting airboe (Thread starter): 1: Ryanair need new planes bought at "reasonable" prices in their business model
If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.
Ryanair is really pushing it with almost everyone. Where do you draw the line?! This bullying by them will only last for so long....... Pissing off people is not the way to go anymore, it may have worked for Ryanair in the past but not anymore.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20826 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 3): Good thing you arent at Boeing, Businesses like to make money not lose it because of personal opinions of one random guy.
The loss of one customer does not break or make a company....in this case, Boeing. Boeing doesn't need Ryanair. It is Ryanair who needs Boeing since Airbus won't do business with them. Ryanair is small potatoes.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 3): Reality = $$$ Talks.. 1 million or 100 million, companies want to earn it and not turn it away.
Boeing is doing just fine with WN, AS, UA, etc, etc.......
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
canadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20769 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2): If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.
Saying something like tends to end the negotiations pretty fast, and everything in life is a negotiation.
Never pee in the bowl of cereal you may have to eat.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 6, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20740 times:
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5): Never pee in the bowl of cereal you may have to eat.
Tell Ryanair that. Look at where their relationship is with Airbus at the moment..... This gives Boeing a lot of leverage. Lots of it!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
canadianpylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 273 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20680 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6): Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 5):
Never pee in the bowl of cereal you may have to eat.
Tell Ryanair that. Look at where their relationship is with Airbus at the moment..... This gives Boeing a lot of leverage. Lots of it!
Ya...Apparently he likes smelly cheerios.
Seriously, though... MOL antics with Airbus pretty much leave him talking to Boeing. Boeing doesn't have to be as aggressive with Ryanair. Sure they want a deal, but they don't have kiss MOL's butt for it, either.
Always looking for the longest route with the most transfers.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20629 times:
Quoting canadianpylon (Reply 7): MOL antics with Airbus pretty much leave him talking to Boeing. Boeing doesn't have to be as aggressive with Ryanair. Sure they want a deal, but they don't have kiss MOL's butt for it, either.
Agreed. Ryanair needs to work on their "people" skills if they want to get what they want. It's a fact of life. Piss off Boeing, they'll have a much harder time trying to get the things they need. I seriously doubt that Boeing consders Ryanair a VIP customer, much more of a thorn on Boeings side.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22696 posts, RR: 88 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 20554 times:
Quoting airboe (Thread starter): "We are in ongoing discussions with Boeing and as soon as we can reach an agreement on price we'll place an order. It could be the -800 or the Max, whichever they discount the most - we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough.
Good line - "we'd buy a dog if it was cheap enough" - self knowledge is a great thing. I wonder why he upsets people so much.
Boeing has a HUGE backlog for the 737NG and MAX. Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919.... Boeing is in a much better position than FR this time and they know that for sure. Just like FR knew they had the better bargaining position during last order, when the 737 backlog was much much smaller.
aeroblogger From India, joined Dec 2011, 1363 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20453 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2): If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.
This would be Bombardier's wet dream. 150 CSeries orders wouldn't be so bad, don't you think?
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Giancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1244 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20453 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 8): Agreed. Ryanair needs to work on their "people" skills if they want to get what they want.
Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want. MOL might be annoying loudmouth but I find it laughable people still underestimate him. I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits not to mention "selling the most planes" which seems to get these companies overexcited every year as the fanboys on either side jump for joy. Boeing is a successful business, Luckily they aren't as naive or emotional as folks on here.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20279 times:
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12): I also find it amusing how people on this site just think a manufacturer will turn its nose up at hundreds of millions in profits not to mention "selling the most planes" which seems to get these companies overexcited every year as the fanboys on either side jump for joy.
Like I said before, Boeing doesn't need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12): Boeing is a successful business, Luckily they aren't as naive or emotional as folks on here.
So is Airbus. By not providing anything to Ryanair, this hasn't hurt nor killed Airbus. The world does not revolve around Ryanair like Ryainair thinks they do.
Quoting Giancavia (Reply 12): Never ending profits, More and more passengers carried.. They know how to get what they want.
The more they treat the manufacturers like dirt, the more their life will be harder. Dint bite the hand that feeds you. Dint like it, take your business somewhere else. They can order the C919 for all I care, and I don't think A and B would care either. That doesn't hurt Boeing nor Airbus.
Quoting airboe (Reply 13): Why give away a large discount and block your production line for some serious time because O'leary threatens to order the C919....
Exactly!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
flyingcello From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20236 times:
The COMAC thing is a O'Leary firing a shot across the bows of Boeing (and Airbus). In reality, he knows that COMAC can't yet provide either a product or a supply chain to match B or A. The C919 will almost certainly have a poor dispatch reliability compared with mature western products (see the Superjet as an example), and FR cannot afford anything that damages their 'on time' reputation.
Also, with the fleet size he has, he won't want to spend lots of money on pilot conversion courses (although he might tell the pilots they have to foot that bill themselves).
So, Boeing will get a decent order, and MOL will pay a decent price, no matter what he says publicly. The only doubt in my mind though, is that John Leahy will step in with a tempting proposition...business is business, and a 200 frame NEO order would get a very attractive offer for MOL...and Airbus is known to be buying market share at the moment.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20184 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 15): How are they treating the manufacturers like dirt
Remember how MOL shot off his mouth on how he "raped" Boeing and we never heard the end if it? And how he royally pissed off Airbus?
Quoting mariner (Reply 15): If anything, he's sending up himself by saying he'd buy a fleet of dogs.
He should really watch what he says, he might actually get a "fleet of dogs"..... And I'd let him, just to see how far that takes him.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 47 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20122 times:
If Boeing (or Airbus) gets offended at what a CEO says and lashes out in someway, well, that's a pretty bad business move. I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer just because he very indirectly compared the 737 to dogs... compared to what MOL has said before, this is pretty tame
max999 From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 906 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20056 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2): If I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.
Based on what I've read on A.net, this is similiar to the haughty attitude Boeing took when JetBlue was just starting up, ready to order their first jets. It seems Boeing took an LCC for granted...look at where JetBlue is nowadays and look at their fleet. I would bet based on that experience, Boeing has a poor relationship with JetBlue to this day.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 20, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20019 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18): I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer
Like I said before, and it warrants being said again: Boeing does not need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing. Boeing has a HUGE backlog on the books for the 737 program. Boeing is in great shape at the moment. Ryanair is not Boeing's #1 concern right now, I don't think....
Quoting max999 (Reply 19): Based on what I've read on A.net, this is similiar to the haughty attitude Boeing took when JetBlue was just starting up, ready to order their first jets. It seems Boeing took an LCC for granted...look at where JetBlue is nowadays and look at their fleet. I would bet based on that experience, Boeing has a poor relationship with JetBlue to this day.
The same with F9. At the same time, look where Boeing is today. B6 and F9 did not kill Boeing, nor the 737 program.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
q120 From Canada, joined Aug 2008, 250 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 20024 times:
I cant believe what I am reading here.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 2): f I was Boeing, I'd tell Ryanair to put up and shut up or go elsewhere. I think Airbus still doesn't want anything to do with Ryanair. So, that puts Ryanair in a bind.
This is so ridiculous.
Imagine Boeing or Airbus saying this:
"keep your millions Ryanair, we don't need them, we are now non-profit organizations, we are only building planes for those airlines we like"
FYI. A sale of an aircraft alone is NOT the only thing that makes the manufacture money.
However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 22, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19945 times:
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5284 posts, RR: 47 Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19948 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 20):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
I'd be pissed off if I was a creditor and Boeing ran off a large customer
Like I said before, and it warrants being said again: Boeing does not need Ryanair. Ryanair needs Boeing. Boeing has a HUGE backlog on the books for the 737 program. Boeing is in great shape at the moment. Ryanair is not Boeing's #1 concern right now, I don't think....
Umm yeah Boeing doesn't NEED Ryanair but Ryanair is still about to write a check for millions and millions of dollars and it would be stupid for Boeing to stick up the middle finger and forfeit all that money. Ryanair isn't weaseling Boeing into doing anything, they negotiating, like every other company in existence. It just so happens that MOL makes some strange comments while doing it.
Boeing didn't have to give preferential pricing to AA either for their 737s and could've told them to bug off because they disagreed... well, you know where I'm going with all this
sonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 19915 times:
Boeing would never tell an airline to "take a hike." It violates the most basic rules of business as a seller of products, "don't go out of your way to piss off the customer."
Yes I know folks will say FR does that all the time with their customers but FR is up front with those fees and costs for on board service. Their a/c fly full pretty much everywhere all the time.
I suspect Boeing will be polite and will listen and will give a discount but won't give away their bottom line for the sake of filling orders for an a/c that is already selling so well.
The alternatives for FR aren't so appealing, they'd have to transition to another a/c with the training and other issues that go with the switch plus take on an a/c that may not be as reliable. Not a pretty prospect for an airline famous for absurdly short turns.
25 q120: Hey, everyone has their right to an opinion. But from the original post, its business 101. Its all about money.
26 AirframeAS: When one makes out of touch comments like what MOL said, as what this thread is about, this makes them look bad and makes the providing company not w
27 AirframeAS: You sure about that?? You should research this one.... Even if they do, I suspect Boeing will tell Ryanair to get in line in terms of delivery slots
28 sonomaflyer: I'm happy to be corrected. All Boeing has to do is say no to any proposal from any airline that doesn't meet their bottom line criteria. I'd be surpr
29 AirframeAS: F9 and B6 as stated earlier. I'm pretty sure Boeing hasn't followed up. What puzzles me is that it is ok for a customer (Ryanair) to alienate their p
30 max999: I don't deny that businesses discriminate their customers to a degree (certain ones are just more valuable), there's something to be said with the po
31 Stitch: Because "the customer is always right" - especially when the customer generates so much revenue for the provider. Quite simply, it may very well be t
32 frmrCapCadet: Some people are button-down types in the public persona. We all know O'Leary isn't. He may be saying that for a reduction in prices he will be the swi
33 RussianJet: 'Ryanair is small potatoes' would be one of the silliest phrases I have heard for a long time. Sure, one airline is not the be all and end all, but to
34 AirframeAS: The point I was trying to make, in which case you obviously missed, is that Ryanair is NOT the only customer that Boeing currently has.
35 airliner371: No manufacture other then Boeing, Airbus and Bombardier can offer planes in a timely manor and since the last deliveries are so soon, either order one
36 zckls04: In my experience the customers who are the most troublesome during the sales process are the ones who are the most troublesome thereafter as well. Oft
37 aa757first: I think they did the same thing with NK. The thing is, the more customers, the better. B6 has grown into quite a successful airline and more orders m
38 InsideMan: More like "we are tired of giving you airplanes for free and would rather sell them to someone who is paying better (where we actually make money!) s
39 AirframeAS: This goes beyond, way beyond competition. This has a lot to do with bad mouthing & taunting your provider and making life miserable for everyone
40 mariner: All true, but Boeing - for example - has been dealing with this supposedly "troublesome" (according to a.net) character for many years and is quite u
41 aa757first: But it's Michael O'Leary. It's kind of like the alcoholic relative who starts hurling baseless insults after two martinis. Everyone discounts it righ
42 EIDL: Every industry has customers, big or small, who will never be profitable for their suppliers. FR are quite possibly that customer in aviation. Gettin
43 DeltaMD90: I still don't get what the "bad mouthing and taunting" was... he says they're negotiating on price (like everyone does) and he'd buy dogs if they wer
44 ricknroll: Boeing won't turn up their nose at profits, MOL just has to buy at a price that makes them a profit.
45 lightsaber: So a few billion more is something they don't want? If Boeing really shut the door on FR, it would do one of the following: 1. Force FR to trash talk
46 AirframeAS: The "raped" Boeing rant by MOL left a sour taste in the mouths of many. And I believe it still burns true today. Negotiating, my ass. If you really t
47 DocLightning: Neither A nor B are interested in selling aircraft at a loss just to keep a line moving. A moving line costs money and so the product had better earn
48 vio: Sorry for the ignorant question, but what did Ryanair do to piss off Airbus?
49 mariner: Airbus isn't actually pissed off, the whole thing is blown out of all proportion. Back in 2002, when MOL was negotiating for aircraft, he used Airbus
50 aerorobnz: Exactly. As the song goes - A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. Spending money to gain the optimal aircraft at the wrong time is often worse
51 CM: Both Boeing and Airbus are sold out for their sing aisle products many years into the future. In the case of Boeing, there alre almost no remaining NG
52 captainmeeerkat: Maybe so, but WHAT he said was true if we are to believe the prices and terms that were thrown around since 2002. The way he said was indeed overly i
53 MEA-707: Actually Boeing does need some additional NG orders. If you look at the orderbook of the remaining NGs, there are many big orders, like 127 737-700s
54 parapente: I don't think it was on purpose but. "we'd buy a dog ('of an aircraft-sic') if it was cheap enough" Seems to be refering to his 'new' partners in Chin
55 PH-BFA: Exactly, although some people are claiming that Boeing will accept any large customer, because more is better, a simple fact is that their production
56 Burkhard: WN, AS, UA and the like do not take 30+ planes a month - far more aircraft will be sold in Asia than in the US the next years. I assume so too. We kn
57 PH-BFA: Boeing has a backlog of more than 2,000 737NG frames, with a production rate of 400 - 450 frames a year. Don't see how 150 frames would fit in, durin
58 f4f3a: Does fr own any of their a/c maybe they could hold On to what they have for a while until the Chinese stuff Comes online . The problem at the moment i
59 KDAYflyer: Then why dont they buy the A-320NEO? Seriously, he's just bucking for the best deal he can get, which is exactly what he is supposed to do. Come to t
60 AirbusA6: B and A may have large backlogs... but with the state of the world's economy, and the financially stretched nature of many of the world's airlines, th
61 airboe: I think you are wrong. MOL has not missed many opportunities to call the MAX a dog. I my opnion pretty f... stupid to call the products of a preferre
62 StickShaker: The C919 would never be a serious contender for a large busy LCC based in Europe or anywhere else in the western world (and Boeing knows it). Reliabi
63 keegd76: They are currently the second largest in Europe based on passenger numbers only. They don't even feature in the top 10 airlines in the world. Sorry.
64 captainmeeerkat: Reread my quote that begins with 'For Boeing' and pick your rolling head off the floor
65 zkojq: I'm sure Boeing will still do business with Ryanair, they will no-doubt just raise the price a bit. Boeing can justify this by saying its 'just to ma
66 Stitch: What was a "rape" a decade ago could now be considered "foreplay" today, as any customer who wants more than a handful of 737s or A320s can expect at
67 ContnlEliteCMH: We can all respect your right to have an opinion without respecting even one iota of the actual opinion.
68 keegd76: Read it several times and it still makes me laugh. Just to clarify, if you had said that FR was one of the world's largest operators of the 737 then
69 captainmeeerkat: To quote yourself to disprove a point, well that's my job! Doesn't matter if you fly from LHR - SYD or from LTN - MAN - FR is a huge success story wit
70 United1: If they could train them to serve passengers and open the emergency exits that would probably save them on crew costs. Paying in Kibble must be cheap
71 CM: Well, then put Leahy on your list of silly executives. He pulled the plug on any Airbus dealings with MOL, which was a brilliant move, IMHO. I believ
72 mariner: When did Mr. Leahy do that? In 2009 Mr. Leahy said: http://www.scotworkblog.com/index.ph...stances-breed-competitive-stances/ "He fired some bait in
73 CM: I didn't say JL pulled the plug on a deal. I said LJ pulled the plug on dealing with FR. Airbus snubbed FR's request to entertain an RFP in 2009, so
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