azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12960 times:
A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver? They pushed F9 out of the #2 spot a couple years ago.
"Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."
F9 is reducing DEN-ATL to once daily while WN is increasing capacity to 5 daily (that's a market which, I think,saw only 1 or 2 Airtran flights). WN has inaugurated DEN-SDF, DEN-DAY, DEN-CAK service, which F9 was previously dominant. Plus, WN has entered almost every market served by F9 with multiple daily flights while F9 keeps reducing their DEN service.
Why is DEN such a success for WN when the local population claims to favor F9?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 1, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 12942 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): "Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."
I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.
Especially since the passenger decline exactly matches the capacity decline.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5303 posts, RR: 47 Reply 2, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12743 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver?
Customer service isn't everything, it is one variable. Look at Ryan Air and how its doing... I doubt they're winning any customer service awards, but they're sure successful. Not trying to compare WN to Ryan Air, just saying customer service isn't everything. WN has a larger network and a more solid brand (IMO), maybe why they're doing better
FL787 From United States of America, joined Aug 2007, 1499 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12667 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver?
Well a couple things you need to keep in mind are:
-F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN so someone flying MSP-DEN-SNA probably isn't included in the survey.
-Routes have 2 ends. Maybe a survey in AUS shows that 78% of passengers prefer WN. So on AUS-DEN, who is really preferred?
N809FR From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 176 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12627 times:
I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline. I also think a lot of people are still tricked into believing WN is the cheapest in the market, which many times is not true. I personally fly Delta almost exclusively, I like their route network, and flew them for the first time after Frontier entered bankruptcy. I have yet to fly WN, and will not do so until reserved seating is the standard, but I do admire their business model and quite frankly am interested to see where they will go in the next 3-5 years.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12454 times:
Quoting N809FR (Reply 4): I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline.
Which may be true, but also may have reversed since Frontier - very publicly - announced a "return to Denver."
Frontier now flies to more destinations - from DEN - than at any time in its history and with record load factors. Better yet, in Q2, relieved of the burden of MKE, Frontier returned to profitability.
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5759 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12442 times:
It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
ADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1179 posts, RR: 1 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12432 times:
I am not sure why F9 surveyed so well.
The couple of sometime F9 fans around here stopped flying when they got rid of free bags and upped the miles for a free trip.
WN flies to more places, WN has better schedules, WN has free bags, WN has free schedule changes, WN doesn't have useless TVs that take up under seat room, WN has free inflight map (on Wi-Fi airplanes when you have your own device).
F9 has cute commercials. F9 is located on a closer in concourse. F9 has 10 min of free TV, then the screen turns into an ad.
Not sure who has the better loyalty program - both have had significant changes.
Looking at a trip more than a month out DEN-PDX the fares are the same. F9 tends to be cheaper closer in, though looking for the same trip in 10 days WN is a lot cheaper in this particular case.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 12371 times:
Quote: F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN so someone flying MSP-DEN-SNA probably isn't included in the survey.
While true, WN has the most Denver originating passengers of any airline in Denver. Even beating United.
Quote: and will not do so until reserved seating is the standard
I feel like this is so over rated. It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that. I respect your opinion though.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 12303 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8): It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that
With or without the seat assignments, you still have that "I don't have a seat" or "We won't sit together" problem either way. Trust me, I have seen it countless times on WN.
Quoting ADent (Reply 7): WN doesn't have useless TVs that take up under seat room
You only have that problem if you sit in an aisle seat.
Quoting ADent (Reply 7): F9 has 10 min of free TV, then the screen turns into an ad.
The ads are only done immediately after take-off then you get the free "preview" (flip the channel to see whats on) until the FA's are done giving Summit, Accent members and Classic Plus and Classic customers their free TV then you lose the free "preview".
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6): It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
This is no secret, and F9 knows it as well as the F9 employees.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
KBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 95 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 12129 times:
I fly out of DEN and when I have a choice I always fly F9 as long as the fare is within 15% of WN or UA. I get better service, the FA's and gate agents are friendlier, and I don't feel like I am stuck on Cattle Car Airways. I don't care if I have to pay for my IFE. And I am not stuck flying with the "Southwest demographic" where Budweiser seems to be the after shave of choice.
I may spend a little more but the customer service, clean planes, and friendly staff more than make up for it.
N809FR From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 176 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11946 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8): I feel like this is so over rated. It really is better then assigned seats when you try it but it gets bad press because people think "I don't have a seat or we won't sit together" but it really isn't like that. I respect your opinion though.
My personal feeling is, I shouldn't be required to check in as soon as it opens to get my coveted window seat. I rarely travel with anyone else, and being able to reserve a window seat in the back of the cabin is always nice to not have to worry about when heading to the airport. I will say, and this is where Delta has come through for me, getting a window seat in the front of the Y cabin on a tight connection is also nice, especially when I am connecting for an international flight in a relatively short time frame.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6): It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
As someone who still wishes WN hadn't come to Denver, I find this situation very infuriating. It isn't as if Denver didn't have sufficient capacity prior to WN entering the market.
Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.
knope2001 From United States of America, joined May 2005, 2555 posts, RR: 31 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11862 times:
It's actually very simple. Frontier's capacity at Denver is flat, and they pack the planes to the gills. As Southwest continues to add capacity at Denver, Frontier's comparative share falls.
Frontier's overall capacity is decreasing, and in the current year-over-year period it's primarily MKE/MCI being pulled back and DEN being flat. In the near-medium future, a fairly modest reduction in total fleet capacity will mean total DEN capacity will likely slip a bit. And again, with Frontieralready packing planes pretty reliably, there's no room for Denver traffic to increase.
Frontier's Denver share of total DIA traffic doesn't really say a thing about Denver supporting or not supporting Frontier. Frontier excels at filling planes, and even if Denver travelers are avoiding Frontier (which I highly doubt) Frontier would still fill 90%+ of their Denver seats by deeper discounts and selling connections.
Frontier simply doesn't have the capacity to grow Denver at this point, and as such their comparative share will slip. And I don't expect any great efforts at this point to expand the fleet to grow Denver. That's because given the weak Denver fare environment, Frontier can't make money trying to be the higher-frequency airline targeting business travelers they once were. It's questionable if United and Southwest are reliably making money offering higher-frequency service targeting business travelers in Denver, but Frontier doesn't have the pockets to keep losing money in that fight. That's why we are seeing more cities but lower frequency, with packed seats but fairly tepid yields, on aircraft with low CASM to turn a profit.
tharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1778 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11803 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest.
I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11767 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.
I would think 8% across all of F9 stations is manageable. If it was 8% at DEN alone I'd be a little more concerned. I would think MKE alone accounts for most of it.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6): This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
I would guess it's more about frequency of flights. As a business traveler and consumer, where the fares are comparable I tend to pick a carrier with multiple frequencies. On leisure not so much. Keep in mind some F9 flights are LTD (less than daily) Two free checked pieces of luggage also plays into my decision process. WN is generally thought of as a breath of fresh air in this day of nickel and diming.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11771 times:
F9 is a great airline and obviously WN is in the business of 'Romneyism' at this time. They came in and destroyed FL under the propaganda they were creating a great 'new merged carrier' woohoo! Not so true is it..and i believe they have been out to destroy F9 in their own home when WN had no plans prior to hub there. They are willing, and can afford to bleed money until F9 is gone. The public should support F9 and recognize this is an attack. The more airlines we have the better and especially ones that provide a great product at great prices like F9. Ive NEVER understood why anyone likes WN anyway..seriously its the greyhound of the skies...i dont enjoy airplane bingo from cheezy FA's as entertainment in-flight and they also have planes flying around with a 'lounge' LOL in front..in other words seats facing back to everyone else in the plane..boy that must be fun..Long live F9 and (cheers to more profits)..WN should be ashamed and needs a 'real' computer system to be considered with the others in my book..flame away WN luvrs!!
usflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 486 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11725 times:
The lounges went away over 10 years ago so you should probably refrain from airing an opinion regarding an airline when it's obvious you haven't been on it.
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else, any company or any un
HPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 8 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11650 times:
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11638 times:
Quoting tharanga (Reply 13): I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?
Fuzzy math or one large curve. Trying to understand the numbers in aviation tends to make ones brain hurt.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11560 times:
Quote: Romneyism
I don't think this is appropriate. This entire website is airlines not your political opinion.
Quote: Ive NEVER understood why anyone likes WN anyway
The same can be said about F9. Nothing makes F9 different. B6, VX, WN are all different. F9 is just an airline. The quote on the side of that plane is on the wrong airline. You may not be able to find out why anyone likes WN but more people in Denver choose WN then F9... That truly says alot.
par13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 5901 posts, RR: 8 Reply 21, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11553 times:
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6): It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN.
Quoting N809FR (Reply 11): As someone who still wishes WN hadn't come to Denver, I find this situation very infuriating. It isn't as if Denver didn't have sufficient capacity prior to WN entering the market.
Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.
Since F9 was a local DEN carrier and WN had abandoned the DEN market years ago, the issue should be why did DEN management and local media turn against "their own" by inviting in and cozying up to WN. I don't think any carrier WN or otherwise would turn down the overtures because DEN already had a local carrier that the public loved.
Is this just another case of the authorities not representing the wishes / desires of the masses? I can understand the press as the "third estate" is always about their agenda and profits, but elected officials...........
WN as mentioned is continuing to grow DEN, its larger network means that in time connections alone could keep the service viable. Majority of DEN pax may still prefer and use F9 but unless WN decides to abandon a second time, its network size can sustain them in the market, now if F9 was continuing to grow a different situation would present.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11510 times:
Quote: Majority of DEN pax may still prefer and use F9
WN actually flies the most Denver originating pax, more then any other airline in Denver, even beating United. Now whether the majority prefer WN is to be seen but the majority fly WN.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11503 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 20): I don't think this is appropriate. This entire website is airlines not your political opinion.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11469 times:
This is just absolutely not true, the in-seat AVOD, assigned seating, use of a major computer system (just like every other airline), these are three to name a few..have you ever had your WN flight cancel and you ask about being transfered to another carrier, even in the event of maintenance..how hard did they laugh?
OB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2966 posts, RR: 8 Reply 25, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 11752 times:
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2): Customer service isn't everything, it is one variable. Look at Ryan Air and how its doing... I doubt they're winning any customer service awards, but they're sure successful. Not trying to compare WN to Ryan Air, just saying customer service isn't everything.
Or here in the states, compare NK's revenues with their perception among the public.
Quoting N809FR (Reply 4): I think since Republic bought F9 there has been a massive decline in the local perception of the airline. I also think a lot of people are still tricked into believing WN is the cheapest in the market, which many times is not true.
My perception of F9 has definitely changed following the Republic buyout.
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 6): It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN.
Considering that F9 is on shaky ground, it makes sense to back the stronger carrier.
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 10): And I am not stuck flying with the "Southwest demographic" where Budweiser seems to be the after shave of choice.
...have you ever even flown Southwest? This has to be the most ignorant thing I've read here all year.
usflyguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 486 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11579 times:
May have something to do with the fact hat the "hometown" carrier was bout and it's headquarters we're moved to IND and its MX was mocked to MKE. They abandoned DEN so DEN turned on them.
LV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1810 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11707 times:
I think F9 is an airline in flux and this is reflecting some of that. It is trying to transition from being a traditional hub and spoke carrier to something resembling what G4 does in p2p routes. I think that does affect how the airline is perceived in DEN. I think you will see F9 continue to develop a focus city at MCO flying to secondary markets... TTN, GSO and COU are just a start. I think you will see it develop select p2p routes out of AZA and LAS.... taking G4 on at it's own game. I think LAS - PUB was just the start of that. I said I believe G4 pulling out of FNL may have something to do with F9.
That being said, I think there is a place in the "new" F9 for a smaller, leaner and less frequency oriented DEN hub. The boys in IND pulling the strings at Republic HQ know F9 doesn't have the resources to take on WN and UA on high frequency, business oriented major market routes. So I think what you will see DEN morph into is a hybrid hub of sorts. I think you will see F9 use it's 319's 3-4 times a week into markets like GFK, SUX, RAP, COU and fly to DEN to connect to flights going to the bigger markets people from the smaller rocky mountain and great plains markets want to go.... such as SAN, SEA, LAX, LAS and even AZA or PHX. Also, I think there will be an emphasis to Mexico when possible, using vacation sellers to sell packages in the smaller markets to fill the planes out of the small markets and then transfer them to flights to the final destinations through DEN.
Of course, I am not an expert, or an armchair CEO, this is just what I think the higher ups are imagining with the way I see F9 changing.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 28, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11636 times:
Quoting LV (Reply 27): The boys in IND pulling the strings at Republic HQ know F9 doesn't have the resources to take on WN and UA on high frequency, business oriented major market routes.
I agree with much of what you say, except "the boys in IND" aren't in IND anymore. All of the executive positions are back in DEN, as are all but one of the FAR 119 positions, and he is moving imminently - Frontier is being run from DEN.
And yes, it is a deliberate decision transition the airline to something like the model you describe, resulting in a $50 million turnaround (to profit) in Q2.
Although I don't know how strongly LAS will figure in the model - maybe.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 29, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11553 times:
Honestly, both Frontier and Southwest are great carriers. I fly on both of them. There are things that I prefer about both airlines, but usually the flights are relatively short so the difference is minuscule. When I take F9, I try and do carry-on in order to avoid the fee to check a bag. And almost always the gate agent has offered to check the bags for free at the gate in order to expedite the boarding process. So you might want to keep that in mind if purchasing a Classic or Classic Plus ticket. It probably isn't worth the extra money.
At any rate, Denver is in an enviable position to have them, not to mention United. And I think Denver may actually be capable of supporting all three, right-sized. All three concourses at DIA are pretty much being used at or over their capacity, except for B. There are only so many places left for F9 and WN to expand to, and gate space is limited without expanding either A or C. And B is United's turf, so they won't be using any of those gates unless United closes up shop, which I don't see them doing any time soon.
onaclearday From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 49 posts, RR: 2 Reply 30, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 11555 times:
I suspect that the powers that be in Denver and at DIA are making things as comfortable as legally possible for WN so that the much vaunted airline will favor DIA over other Front Range airports--Colorado Springs not least among them--for as long as possible. If WN had gone to COS rather than DIA when it re-entered the Colorado market, the impact on DIA would have been significant. F9 no doubt would have fared better than it has with the direct competition it has since faced, but at least the DIA numbers were saved and bolstered.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 31, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11185 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): I could be wrong, but I would have thought the majority of that fall was because of the massive cutbacks at MKE and MCI.
WIth the massive cuts at both MKE and MCI, and there being only about an 8% reduction in F9 operations overall, I think that in the meantime, F9 actually expanded into a few new destinations to/from DEN, and 'right-sized' frequencies to/from DEN to the rest of the network.
Quoting FL787 (Reply 3): -F9 and WN connect a lot of passengers through DEN...
From 2011 stats, DEN O&D was 54.6% (55%-45% split). Of course it would be better to be 60% and higher, but I believe that so long as the rate is over 50%, yields will be favorable here for the big 3 at DEN of UA, WN and F9, as well as all of the other carriers serving DEN.
Quoting N809FR (Reply 11): Frontier has long been given such a hard time by DEN airport management, I don't know who exactly has an axe to grind but it shouldn't be so apparent.
I think the DEN airport management has somewhat of a difficult job (although one that is probably quite envied by airport managements around the country) in that it has to keep a balance of 3 majors operating successfully there. When one day it seems UA is the pet child, the next day it's WN, and the third day it's F9. So whatever it is that's being done, it does seem to be working at keeping DEN with competition levels only dreamed about at other airports. And do we really know what goes on behind those closed doors?
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29): Honestly, both Frontier and Southwest are great carriers.
This is also correct....
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29): All three concourses at DIA are pretty much being used at or over their capacity, except for B.
As B is already fully build out I do believe, A and C still have a good amount of room for relatively inexpensive and easily done gate additions if need be.
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29): And I think Denver may actually be capable of supporting all three, right-sized.
My personal theory is that if F9 continues to be profitable, then DEN will continue (all other things being equal....) to be host to these 3 major hubbers...... and support all of its remaining carriers as well......
In closing here, DEN and community planners envision 62M pax by the year 2020. Quite doable, since this is only about a 1%-2% each and every year increase. And with that, somebody's gotta be moving all of those bodies.....
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11137 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 32): I don't recall a day when Frontier was the "favored child" of DIA. Just out of interest, did you have a particular day in mind?
You overlooked this part, my friend.....
Quoting point2point (Reply 31): And do we really know what goes on behind those closed doors?
LV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1810 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 11129 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 28): Although I don't know how strongly LAS will figure in the model - maybe
Okay, so part of that is me being a huge LAS cheerleader. After all, my paycheck depends on a steady stream of tourists looking for a good time. That being said, I was surprised F9 started LAS- PUB and I don't think it will be the last one. I think there are three to four other routes F9 might try out of LAS.... FNL being the first one that comes to mind with the G4 pull out.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 10802 times:
Quote: the in-seat AVOD, assigned seating, use of a major computer system (just like every other airline)
But there are airlines with this as well. If I want AVOD I could choose DL, assigned seating any other carrier and multiple airlines have good res systems. My point was F9 has no really special aspect except for there livery which you can see flying another airline.
Quote: As B is already fully build out I do believe, A and C still have a good amount of room for relatively inexpensive and easily done gate additions if need be.
They are in planning the process of expanding C for WN.
cosyr From United States of America, joined Jul 2012, 201 posts, RR: 0 Reply 38, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9620 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): Why is DEN such a success for WN when the local population claims to favor F9?
As a Denver local, I can say a lot has changed in the last year. Since the 90's United was terrible and many locals were thrilled at any opportunity to fly F9 over UA, Driving UA into that whole Ted fiasco. Now with the modest improvements prior to merger, and the major improvements since joining with CO, UA is far above where they were in the late 90's. A lot of people are being swayed by the rough period they have had since March, but most of the improvements to UA as a result of the merger happened leading up to customer day one.
During that same time period, F9 decided to become an ULCC, gave extra legroom to some, by cutting legroom to others. They had some excellent financial progress in bankruptcy only to be stripped of it by Republic's cost cutting measures, mostly around staff. My parents stuck with them as far as they could, but after this summer, they claim they will never fly F9 again. We moved to DEN a year before new F9 started, and we have seen the rise, and will see the end of Frontier.
Locals used to be more loyal to Frontier than any other hometown airline in the US, and it is not that Southwest got better, Frontier has just proven that they do not deserve that loyalty.
jporterfi From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 358 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9420 times:
Quoting NWADTWE16 (Reply 24): .have you ever had your WN flight cancel and you ask about being transfered to another carrier, even in the event of maintenance..
Has this worked for you when you were flying F9? I was under the impression that all airlines stopped doing this a long time ago, at the advent of e-tickets.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2655 posts, RR: 5 Reply 40, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9314 times:
"It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN."
I don't know if this is true or not, but smart move on their part to play both sides.
You want to support the hometown airline, but they have been on the ropes for a long time. Bringing in a huge, established airline to fill up gates in case F9 goes away is a prudent thing to do.
CarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 41, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9240 times:
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 40): "It seems that the DEN's management as well as local Denver politicians are very pro-WN. This is probably why WN has taken much of F9's market share at DEN."
I don't know if this is true or not, but smart move on their part to play both sides.
You want to support the hometown airline, but they have been on the ropes for a long time. Bringing in a huge, established airline to fill up gates in case F9 goes away is a prudent thing to do.
But its just not WN. UA gets concessions all the time from Denver and DIA. When UA filed BK way back when. Denver forgave all sorts of rent and charges. Plus the baggage system. Then just several months ago Denver was very nice in letting UA give up some unused space.
Long ago, the then Mayor Hickenlooper welcomed the new hometown airline of WN to Denver and it hasn't stopped since.
strfyr51 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 488 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9239 times:
One thing you armchair CEO's seem to forget is that F9 only HAS 69 airplanes while WN has 700. UA can compete with WN but for what?? those who are bound to fly WN are ALWAYS going to flt WN, Nobody is going to Run F9 or UA out of Denver so in that there IS a choice. It can't make that much of a difference to F9 if their airplanes are packed because you can't sell anymore seats than you've got ... is WN flying 90% loads out of Denver?? UA has been in the upper 80% range all summer. so unless UA and F9 put more and bigger airplanes in Denver then WN is going to get what they Get and God Bless them.. I can tell you truly that you're NOT going to see any Fare wars in the near future. nor will you see any large influx of planes, UA is now shifting larger 737's into Denver and that might help some but F9 can't do that. and it really doesn't matter what WN does. Pretty soon it's all going to be about amenities and Customer Service because the UA S-co 737's Have the live TV. And if people like that ?? well then the passengers will be there. If they don't then OH Well !!
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 43, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9220 times:
Quoting jporterfi (Reply 39): Has this worked for you when you were flying F9? I was under the impression that all airlines stopped doing this a long time ago, at the advent of e-tickets.
A few airlines don't have ticket agreements with each other. Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue are a few that don't, so if you're delayed or cancelled you have no options on other airlines. Southwest, at least, has a real network and they can generally reroute you on one of their alternate flights.
With Frontier's limited operations, if you get delayed or cancelled, they rarely have other options such as later flights or connections via an alternate hub, they will route you on some other carriers network, normally UA. It has happened to me numerous times. In that respect, I believe, they are the only LCC who does that.
mogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 44, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9135 times:
Since we're at the topic of DEN, how well (or not well) is UA holding up against this 3-way bloodbath ? Opening up DEN-NRT is definitely a positive development.
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 45, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 9034 times:
Quoting cosyr (Reply 38): During that same time period, F9 decided to become an ULCC, gave extra legroom to some, by cutting legroom to others. They had some excellent financial progress in bankruptcy only to be stripped of it by Republic's cost cutting measures, mostly around staff. My parents stuck with them as far as they could, but after this summer, they claim they will never fly F9 again.
You know I fly them once a month or every other month and I haven't noticed a change. I find the flight crews to be helpful, the customer service folks to be helpful, and yes, even nice. For me the change is that they are less of a network carrier so sometimes I only fly them in one direction rather than the roundtrip because because the timing doesn't work otherwise and I don't want to stay another night in a hotel and rent a car for another day just to fly F9 in both directions. I don't really care about TV one way or the other, but it's nice sometimes. It's not a motivator. On flights over 2.5 to 3.0 hours I don't mind paying for the stretch.
Considering what it takes to run an airline, I think they do a great job against fierce competitors.
jfklganyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2655 posts, RR: 5 Reply 47, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8785 times:
"Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue are a few that don't, so if you're delayed or cancelled you have no options on other airlines. Southwest, at least, has a real network and they can generally reroute you on one of their alternate flights."
B6 absolutely does. That was what the big move to Sabre a few years ago was all about.
EWRandMDW From United States of America, joined Jul 2006, 379 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8628 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): A Denver Post survey last year stated that 78% of DEN passengers rated F9 number #1 in customer service, followed by 38% for Southwest. So, why is Southwest clobbering Frontier in Denver? They pushed F9 out of the #2 spot a couple years ago.
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 46): Quoting tharanga (Reply 13):
I don't understand this number. shouldn't these add to 100%?
It is possible that another airline received votes also,making up the 100%I
Trouble is that 78% (FL) + 38% (WN) = 116% which is mathematically impossible (you can't have more than everything!). Throw in a 3rd airline, and it brings back nightmares of the 1960s and 70s New Math that was taught in public schools!
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8319 times:
Quoting EWRandMDW (Reply 49): Trouble is that 78% (FL) + 38% (WN) = 116% which is mathematically impossible (you can't have more than everything!). Throw in a 3rd airline, and it brings back nightmares of the 1960s and 70s New Math that was taught in public schools!
I was quoting from memory, which isn't the best, obviously. Although these figures aren't correct, F9 was in 70-78% range, and WN was possibly 20-30%. All the other carriers scored substantially lower, none higher than 10%,
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 51, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7942 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 37): They are in planning the process of expanding C for WN.
They started the expansion a couple of years ago, but now they put it on hold citing WN saying something about being committed to the project or something like that. The construction is just placed on hold and has been on hold for the last 18 months or so......
Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 40): I don't know if this is true or not, but smart move on their part to play both sides.
Oh, it's true. When Chickenpooper was Mayor of DEN, he pushed so hard and bent over backwards so many times just to get WN here in DEN.
LV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 1810 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7206 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 36): Perhaps you mean DRO-LAS, which has since been dropped
You are right, I don't know why I thought PUB instead of DRO... my mistake. I'm not surprised it's been dropped already and since that is the case I take back all comments I made about F9 doing any p2p out of LAS. I do think it will continue to grow the MCO focus city and may even open a second focus city somewhere in Florida.... and I am still curious to see if there are more plans for AZA.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 53, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7053 times:
Quoting LV (Reply 52): You are right, I don't know why I thought PUB instead of DRO... my mistake. I'm not surprised it's been dropped already and since that is the case I take back all comments I made about F9 doing any p2p out of LAS.
I guessed it.
Quoting LV (Reply 52): I do think it will continue to grow the MCO focus city and may even open a second focus city somewhere in Florida.... and I am still curious to see if there are more plans for AZA.
MCO? Absolutely.
Another city in Florida? Well, maybe, but not for this winter. RFD is ready to throw money at an airline - any airline - that would start RFD-RSW, but I'm not sure it is for Frontier, at least not this year, for fleet reasons.
Frontier still has to deal with the fact that under the terms of the reorganisation, several aircraft are leaving the fleet over the next six to none months, and although replacements are planned, they are not (I don't think) on a one to one basis.
AZA? Well - maybe. I'd like to see an AZA-MCO red-eye, for example, which would be possible even with the constrained fleet, but I'm not sure about more than that.
But this winter is really all about one thing - consistent profitability. I can't remember when Frontier was last profitable in Q1 - 2003, maybe, long before Southwest came to DEN? - and I'd love to see that happen.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 54, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6638 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 22): WN actually flies the most Denver originating pax, more then any other airline in Denver, even beating United. Now whether the majority prefer WN is to be seen but the majority fly WN.
I think the free luggage and no change fee is just the real reason southwest has been able to capture denver o&d so quickly.
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 44): Since we're at the topic of DEN, how well (or not well) is UA holding up against this 3-way bloodbath ? Opening up DEN-NRT is definitely a positive development.
Definitely. Its differentiates their product more from southwest and frontier. The problem i see in Denver is to survive you need real product differentiation and reasons why people should fly you. Southwest does for leisure travellers with no change fee and 2 free pieces of luggage plus excellent service to where they want to go. United has some of the best and most frequent service to business markets, a first class cabin, and a worldwide frequent flyer program with partners. What is frontiers nitch market or reason why people need to fly them? I think there needs to be a solid answer. You have to be better at the competition than something and have a market that you serve better than the competition. COS in addition the denver hub i think is the best product differentiator i can think of for frontier? I dont think banks or investors can see any product differentiator for frontier either which is why they avoid it like the plague.
Example when frontier, southwest, and united are all the same price or im flying on business i always book southwest or united for miles or i book southwest for the free luggage if im on leisure travel. I bet alot of people do that exact thing daily and frontier looses sales.
135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 356 posts, RR: 2 Reply 56, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6214 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 51): Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 41):
Plus the baggage system.
That thing, after 15+ years, still is a complete joke today. The system is still there, but it's not being used, at all!
It's easy to forget about that when discussing why airlines have struggled over the last 2 decades...but DEN really gouged the airlines for all of those year and a half @ $1M per day delay costs that DEN forced the airlines to help fund drastically!
If they weren't held to such financial anchoring while DEN couldn't figure out and operate the "new" baggage system that was such a cluster to the delays of DEN opening, then F9 and UA would have been better off financially (or atleast not run-down so quickly).
WN wasn't held to all of this (as it was prior to them) while F9 and UA were, and now WN is getting the green light to "welcome".
KBJCpilot From United States of America, joined May 2012, 95 posts, RR: 8 Reply 57, posted (8 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5748 times:
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 25): Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 10):
And I am not stuck flying with the "Southwest demographic" where Budweiser seems to be the after shave of choice.
...have you ever even flown Southwest? This has to be the most ignorant thing I've read here all year.
Yes I have flown Southwest. Over 30 segments in the past 24 months alone and I've given up on them. You've been to the website www.peopleofwalmart.com? They should make a website called www.peopleofsouthwestairlines.com. My guess is that you would probably find the same people on both places.
I've had enough of logging onto their website 23 hours and 59 minutes prior to my flight and checking in hoping to get a good number so I can stand in line waiting to board. And then just before it's my turn, Joe Sh*tbag shows up with his two carry-on's, wearing his cleanest tanktop and cut-off jean shorts, and crowds into line just in front of me.
Of course I get to listen to the Southwest cabin crew do their best impressions of Ron "Tater Salad" White, a true Southwest Airlines hero if there ever was one, and I get to experience crappy seats and 3 layovers before my final destination.
The best part is showing up to a 645PM boarding time and hearing that your aircraft is still stuck at "such-and-such" airport and will be arriving here in 90 minutes because on the 4th leg of a 9 leg day the aircraft went tech and there wasn't enough slack in the system to make up for it and that the final leg of the day won't be arriving into PDX/OAK/SEA/PHX etc. until well after midnight when it was scheduled to arrive at 930PM.
I will stick with F9 from now on because I know their flights are on time, the aircraft are clean, and I am supporting my local airline.
Caspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 359 posts, RR: 1 Reply 60, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5355 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 8): While true, WN has the most Denver originating passengers of any airline in Denver. Even beating United.
Does this statement take into account UAX? I would expect that when you count all UA CODED flights out of DEN the numbers would skew somewhat towards UA's favor. For example, in flights per day, OO operates more flights at DEN than anyone else. Are they and other UAX being accounted for? Just curious.
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 61, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 5207 times:
Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 59): as I read it ALL airlines are requires to re-route you at your request if they can't get you where you're going. EVEN WN.
True, but only on airlines they have an agreement with. WN will only reroute you over their own network since they have no agreements with any other airline.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 62, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5146 times:
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): "Frontier Airlines said Wednesday that its passenger traffic fell 8 percent during July from a year ago, following a similar decline in capacity."
Quoting mariner (Reply 5): Which may be true, but also may have reversed since Frontier - very publicly - announced a "return to Denver."
Frontier now flies to more destinations - from DEN - than at any time in its history and with record load factors.
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 12): It's actually very simple. Frontier's capacity at Denver is flat,
Quoting knope2001 (Reply 12): Frontier simply doesn't have the capacity to grow Denver at this point,
Hey, lets use actually data. Year-over-year change in departing DEN seats. F9 is shrinking in DEN...
2012
JAN -2%
FEB -1%
MAR -3%
APR -3%
MAY -5%
JUN -5%
JUL -6%
AUG -9%
SEP -6%
OCT -2%
NOV -5%
DEC -9%
2013
JAN -8%
I remember months ago I told Mariner that capacity was going to be down in DEN for Spring 2012 and he said it wasn't a final schedule. Is it final yet???
For years people have said that WN is hurting UA and not F9. I think we know that is a myth. UA with their $22m.year in rent savings is now making money in DEN according to a Wall Street coverage report I recently read.
Quoting azstar (Thread starter): Why is DEN such a success for WN when the local population claims to favor F9?
WN is a huge airline. F9 is a small one. WN is also pricing much lower than they would otherwise in order to beat F9.
Quoting point2point (Reply 31): Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 29):
All three concourses at DIA are pretty much being used at or over their capacity, except for B.
As B is already fully build out I do believe, A and C still have a good amount of room for relatively inexpensive and easily done gate additions if need be.
Thanks to the ridiculous DEN master plan, it is extremely expensive to add gates to DEN thanks to the "race track". It is a second people mover that will go around the periphery of the terminals...unless the plan has been updated to delete it since I last saw it.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 63, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 5132 times:
I prefer Frontier's clean, relatively new fleet of Airbus 319 and 320 aircraft. I've personally never flown on the E-190's.
I also prefer Frontier's livery - but not that I choose my airline based on the paint job! But you gotta love the animal tails! Green and white and grey have a more neutral look to them than WN's tan, blue, and red.
ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3998 posts, RR: 23 Reply 64, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 5059 times:
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): Yes I have flown Southwest. Over 30 segments in the past 24 months alone and I've given up on them. You've been to the website www.peopleofwalmart.com? They should make a website called www.peopleofsouthwestairlines.com. My guess is that you would probably find the same people on both places.
You could make the same argument for many airlines, especially in the back of the cabin if people can find a cheap seat. Personally I've ran into very few inappropriately dressed individuals while flying around the system.
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): I've had enough of logging onto their website 23 hours and 59 minutes prior to my flight and checking in hoping to get a good number so I can stand in line waiting to board. And then just before it's my turn, Joe Sh*tbag shows up with his two carry-on's, wearing his cleanest tanktop and cut-off jean shorts, and crowds into line just in front of me.
Are you upset that he did the same thing as you (check in online) or that he is wearing something that is probably a bit too casual to travel in? If you aren't getting an early enough position in line there is a thing called Early Bird to help move you up a bit. Going off of your segments flown comment, you are probably still too short to get A-List status.
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): Of course I get to listen to the Southwest cabin crew do their best impressions of Ron "Tater Salad" White, a true Southwest Airlines hero if there ever was one, and I get to experience crappy seats and 3 layovers before my final destination.
So out of the 10-ish segments I've flow the last month, I haven't really had any FA do anything of the sort. It seems to be fading out of the system. The seats I don't really see why you have an issue with them, even the new Evolve seating. It is pretty comparable to any other coach seating. As far as the 3 layovers, you can stop there. That is your fault completely. The WN res system will not sell more than 2 stops along a route unless you specifically book the individual segments. In most cases the only time you are going to see the 2 stops are flying out of DAL or some of the smaller stations. Anything more than that you are booking the individual segments yourself or have otherwise requested it.
It also isn't like you are changing aircraft at every stop (the res system will only book one change of aircraft unless you tell it otherwise) and you have the final decision in picking the flights based on travel times. So why complain when you are selecting them?
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): The best part is showing up to a 645PM boarding time and hearing that your aircraft is still stuck at "such-and-such" airport and will be arriving here in 90 minutes because on the 4th leg of a 9 leg day the aircraft went tech and there wasn't enough slack in the system to make up for it and that the final leg of the day won't be arriving into PDX/OAK/SEA/PHX etc. until well after midnight when it was scheduled to arrive at 930PM.
When making a reservation you always give contact information to be notified if the flight status changes. When you got the initial call, text, or email, why didn't you call reservations to get it rescheduled? Anything delayed over an hour allows you to get rebooked if space is available.
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): I will stick with F9 from now on because I know their flights are on time, the aircraft are clean, and I am supporting my local airline.
I have no problem with F9 at all. I always liked their product. Fly the company you want and enjoy it. That is the beauty of the free market. However, watch where you put blame since several of your complaints are self inflicted by not taking responsibility using the tools/information provided to you.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 65, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 4969 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 62): WN is a huge airline. F9 is a small one. WN is also pricing much lower than they would otherwise in order to beat F9.
That's absolutely true and if WN is successful in driving F9 out fares in Denver will be substantially just like they are in Houston a city dominated by UA and WN. Anyone who believes WN would keep these prices absent F9 is deluding himself.
I like flying WN, but I am reluctant to fly them in and out of Denver.
Check your data. You are correct in that IAH (#3) is one of the most expensive airports; unfortunately for you, WN flies out of HOU (#88) and not IAH.
4 of the top 9 most expensive airports to fly out of are UA hubs. Without WN in DEN, imagine what the fares would be. wN can keep UA under control, F9 can not.
PlaneAdmirer From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 530 posts, RR: 1 Reply 67, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4817 times:
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 66): Check your data. You are correct in that IAH (#3) is one of the most expensive airports; unfortunately for you, WN flies out of HOU (#88) and not IAH.
I am aware that they are seperate airports, however, they serve the same city. They have a duopoloy and despite
Quoting usflyguy (Reply 66): Without WN in DEN, imagine what the fares would be. wN can keep UA under control, F9 can not.
WN doesn't seem to keep UA under control in Houston.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 68, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4836 times:
Quoting KBJCpilot (Reply 57): The best part is showing up to a 645PM boarding time and hearing that your aircraft is still stuck at "such-and-such" airport and will be arriving here in 90 minutes because on the 4th leg of a 9 leg day the aircraft went tech
But the coin has two sides. Just yesterday I flew WN from PVD-BWI with a change of aircraft at BWI to BNA. Flight # 2007 ot of BWI was to continue to CMH, STL and LIT ; not necessarily in that order.
What was suppose to be my aircraft from FLL-PVD-BWI was delayed by a good 90 minutes in FLL or another station in a chain reaction . From a www.flightaware vantage point using PVD free wi fi; what appears to have happened is WN intercepted another inbound flight from MCO-PVD and turned that into flight 2007. For a while yesterday afternoon there were two WN flight # 2007 flying up the eastern seaboard at the same time. I ended up on a 735 vs a 737 but that was okay in lieu of what could have happened which would have involved missing my connection at BWI. The 737 I was suppose to be on took the place of the other later departure out of PVD to MDW (I think)
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
Then you shouldn't use Houston in trying to make your point that if F9 goes away, fares would be substantially higher. These numbers are based on domestic itineraries.
LAX at #48 is the highest airport on the list where WN has a somewhat significant operation.
IAH (UA) #3
DEN (UA, WN, F9) #84
HOU (WN) #88
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else, any company or any un
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 70, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4762 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 62): I remember months ago I told Mariner that capacity was going to be down in DEN for Spring 2012 and he said it wasn't a final schedule. Is it final yet???
I don't think so.
I don't know if Winter is final yet, but with the rejigging of the fleet, I don't see how it can be.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 71, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4728 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 55): That doesn't account for Frontier's record load factors.
High loads don't mean profit, of course, but obviously something is drawing people to the airline.
But how much of these higher LFs at DEN is do to the fact that
Past summers' schedules at SAN, including last year's, have seen about 6 daily (more-or-less) flights to DEN; this past summer we had barely 4. That will obviously push LFs higher on the remaining flights -- assuming F9 pax stay with F9...
And I know decreasing frequency/capacity in many other large markets lately has been discussed a lot on F9 threads.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 72, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4722 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 71): But how much of these higher LFs at DEN is do to the fact that
Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
F9 is shrinking in DEN...
Hopefully, a lot of it.
I've been saying this for a while now so I didn't think I needed to spell it out, but I guess I do.
There is a new CEO charged with making Frontier consistently profitable. I believe he is correcting the mistake that Frontier made when Southwest first came to DEN - "we won't give an inch" - and is giving an inch or several.
I imagine Frontier will continue to shrink some at DEN and my hope is that it works - that he brings the airline to consistent profitability, because if he can't there isn't a lot of point.
Does WN even have its Aircraft Appearance department anymore? The last time I flew on a WN aircraft, it RON'd the night before in DEN for a SLC departure. It was never cleaned for the first flight of the day, the flight I was on. I was surprised the plane was not cleaned.
Quoting enilria (Reply 62): WN is also pricing much lower than they would otherwise in order to beat F9.
No, it has not. Every fare I've looked at, F9 has always been lower than WN's. And even if your statement was true, then why is F9 still around? I have never seen a WN fare beat a F9 fare in DEN, ever.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6134 posts, RR: 13 Reply 74, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4479 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 70): Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
I remember months ago I told Mariner that capacity was going to be down in DEN for Spring 2012 and he said it wasn't a final schedule. Is it final yet???
I don't think so.
Well, if we can't close the book on Spring 2012 being down in DEN for F9 capacity then when will be able to? It's already happened. Is it too soon???
Quoting mariner (Reply 72): I imagine Frontier will continue to shrink some at DEN
Just wanted an admission they are shrinking in Denver.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 73): Quoting enilria (Reply 62):
WN is also pricing much lower than they would otherwise in order to beat F9.
No, it has not. Every fare I've looked at, F9 has always been lower than WN's. And even if your statement was true, then why is F9 still around?
I didn't say lower than F9. Re-read it. I said lower than they would otherwise be. The fares in DEN are clearly lower than their Texas or California fares in like distances. Just look at DB1B.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 75, posted (8 months 2 weeks 4 days ago) and read 4459 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 74): Well, if we can't close the book on Spring 2012 being down in DEN for F9 capacity then when will be able to? It's already happened. Is it too soon???
Why so impatient about Spring? As I said, I don't think Winter is finalised yet.
If your point is simply that Frontier will be down in DEN - for Spring - then my answer is what it has always been - maybe, even probably - and Winter certainly - but I'll wait and see when I know what Spring is.
I know aircraft are going out and I know aircraft are coming in, but I don't know how that is going to balance out and since I've been saying for some time that Frontier is shrinking at DEN I can't see why you need another "admission" - I;m rather pleased with it. I guess you're not reading my posts anymore. Oh, well - fair enough.
LoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3641 posts, RR: 38 Reply 76, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 4191 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 75): Quoting enilria (Reply 74):
Well, if we can't close the book on Spring 2012 being down in DEN for F9 capacity then when will be able to? It's already happened. Is it too soon???
Why so impatient about Spring? As I said, I don't think Winter is finalised yet.
His initial (and subsequent) posts were talking about Spring of 2012 which has come and gone. I think that was his point.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 77, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4155 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 75): but I don't know how that is going to balance out and since I've been saying for some time that Frontier is shrinking at DEN
MCO has certainly come on with a roar across the last six months. As simple math goes adding all the recent service in MCO would in my mind involve shrinkage elsewhere in the system. I would think the majority of that would involve DEN.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
point2point From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 1961 posts, RR: 1 Reply 78, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4074 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 62): Thanks to the ridiculous DEN master plan, it is extremely expensive to add gates to DEN thanks to the "race track". It is a second people mover that will go around the periphery of the terminals...unless the plan has been updated to delete it since I last saw it.
Well, if I may add here, that Terminals A and C are not yet at full build-out. I believe that about 40 or so gates can be added here in total. The costs would be minimal.
As for adding on new terminals D & E, as in the master plan, well.... costs would still be incremental when compared to other airports in the U.S. and around the world. Although with these two new terminals, of course they have to get permission from the New World Order here first. Wouldn't want to disturb those underground bunkers, eh?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 79, posted (8 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3993 times:
Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 76): His initial (and subsequent) posts were talking about Spring of 2012 which has come and gone. I think that was his point.
LOL - and there I was, thinking it it was a typo.
Since it named me, I couldn't think of any other reason for the post. I still can't, because the alternative is that the poster thinks Ilm stupid.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 80, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3685 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 79): Since it named me, I couldn't think of any other reason for the post. I still can't, because the alternative is that the poster thinks Im stupid.
Stupid, nah. I think the majority of us are opinionated in one-way shape form or fashion. I learned along time ago chats, forums and email are very impersonal.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 82, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3595 times:
Who does more advertising in Denver these days? With the Southwest Porch/Court/Ice Rink I would think SWA does more advertising but I could be wrong...
Quote: A large percentage of the time that's true. But it isn't always true.
I wouldn't look to much into this. Lets return to the subject.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 83, posted (8 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3583 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 82): Who does more advertising in Denver these days? With the Southwest Porch/Court/Ice Rink I would think SWA does more advertising but I could be wrong...
Southwest, famously, has a very large advertising budget at DEN. Frontier's advertising budget is very small by comparison. It is a much smaller airline, we are not comparing equals here.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 84, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
Albany is offering incentives for Denver and Houston.... What is the possibility of them actually getting Denver and which airline would most likely offer the service?
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 85, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3457 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 84): Albany is offering incentives for Denver and Houston.... What is the possibility of them actually getting Denver and which airline would most likely offer the service?
Southwest would seem like the most likely candidate for Albany-Denver service. I'd also like to see them try out Buffalo. Upstate New York is one of the few areas of the country that lacks flights to Denver. The northeast doesn't seem to be on F9's radar right now, but then again they are trying just about everything else, so who knows. But if F9 were to test out Albany and it was successful, I could see WN coming in and trying to win it over. Not sure if DEN-ALB can support both WN and F9. I don't see UA wanting to bother with it.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 86, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3407 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 84): Upstate New York is one of the few areas of the country that lacks flights to Denver.
If my geography is correct with ALB a carrier also gets western Massachusetts which is a commutable drive.
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 85): The northeast doesn't seem to be on F9's radar right now, but then again they are trying just about everything else,
Around the greater BOS area I think it has more to do with Massport. I was thinking ORH (Worcester) might be a market until I saw on flightaware that Massport also owns/manages that airport. BTV and PWM might be two future markets. G4 is leaving BTV I believe in November. With that said I've noticed over the years F9 seems to shy away from competing the Rockies with other well known Winter destinations such as Stowe Vermont, near BTV.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 87, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3419 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 85): The northeast doesn't seem to be on F9's radar right now, but then again they are trying just about everything else, so who knows.
The northeast is a long way from DEN and uses a lot of fuel. With oil prices on the way up again and with the constrained (for the next few months) fleet, I think Frontier would be wary.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3223 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 87): The northeast is a long way from DEN and uses a lot of fuel. With oil prices on the way up again and with the constrained (for the next few months) fleet, I think Frontier would be wary.
An A-319 or 320 is more than capable of flying this route; however, I agree that it may not be the wisest use of F9's resources.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 89, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3072 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 88): An A-319 or 320 is more than capable of flying this route
Sure. DEN-ANC is further than DEN to anywhere in New England.
But there's something else at work. For yonks people have been saying that DEN can't support three hubbing airlines, and I doubt it can if all those three airlines do is fly to the same places.
A number of people - here - believe that Southwest intended to kill Frontier when it came to DEN and you've suggested that if Frontier flew DEN-ALB, then if it was successful Southwest would jump on it. I doubt the route could support two carriers and there's no way that Frontier can beat the sheer heft of Southwest, so what happens then?
Frontier has to find a way through this, which is what the new CEO is doing - and will continue to do.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2454 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3012 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 84): Albany is offering incentives for Denver and Houston.... What is the possibility of them actually getting Denver and which airline would most likely offer the service?
I think southwest is the most likely to jump on DEN. They have successfully operated LAS for years now daily. Frontier seems to be focusing on MCO at the moment but an incentive might make them listen
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6361 posts, RR: 34 Reply 91, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2688 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 32): I don't recall a day when Frontier was the "favored child" of DIA.
I recall the deal that was done between DIA & UA to free up the Ted gates on concourse A for F9. I'm sure UA would have been happy to keep F9 bottled up with six fewer gates.
Quoting mariner (Reply 34): The notorious business of Frontier and the C gates for example.
That's only notorious if one believes DIA management should allow incumbent carriers to block the expansion of competitors through gate-squatting.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 86): If my geography is correct with ALB a carrier also gets western Massachusetts which is a commutable drive.
Your geography is somewhat correct, but that area of western Massachusetts is very sparsely populated. People in the Pioneer Valley will take the straight shot down I-91 to BDL.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 86): Around the greater BOS area I think it has more to do with Massport. I was thinking ORH (Worcester) might be a market until I saw on flightaware that Massport also owns/manages that airport.
Massport would LOVE to get a carrier into ORH. The bigger issue is that UA, B6 & WN all fly BOS-DEN, and a potential F9 entry into ORH-Florida would almost immediately be matched by B6. B6 continues to make noise about entering ORH, but IMO that's intended to keep carriers like NK & G4 (and F9 with its new strategy) out of ORH.
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 90): I think southwest is the most likely to jump on DEN. They have successfully operated LAS for years now daily.
It is possible that WN would flip ALB-LAS to ALB-DEN.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 92, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2681 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 91): I recall the deal that was done between DIA & UA to free up the Ted gates on concourse A for F9. I'm sure UA would have been happy to keep F9 bottled up with six fewer gates.
As I recall, it was a great deal for United. It got a $40 million regional jet facility.
But aren't you saying - in your next bit - that airlines shouldn't be allowed to squat on gates? Or does that only apply to Frontier?
Quoting ScottB (Reply 91): That's only notorious if one believes DIA management should allow incumbent carriers to block the expansion of competitors through gate-squatting.
The notorious parts were that (a) Frontier was led to believe they could have the two gates, to the extent that Frontier published a schedule showing the use of them and that (b) when DIA reneged, it was because they were to be common use gates. Yeh, right.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6361 posts, RR: 34 Reply 93, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2491 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 92): But aren't you saying - in your next bit - that airlines shouldn't be allowed to squat on gates? Or does that only apply to Frontier?
No, it applies to all carriers; the point is that DIA management did work for Frontier's benefit in freeing up the Ted gates for their use.
Quoting mariner (Reply 92): As I recall, it was a great deal for United. It got a $40 million regional jet facility.
So it's a bad thing that the airport arrived at a solution that was a win-win for both of its largest tenants? DIA eventually built a regional concourse for F9 & ZK as well.
Quoting mariner (Reply 92): The notorious parts were that (a) Frontier was led to believe they could have the two gates, to the extent that Frontier published a schedule showing the use of them and that (b) when DIA reneged, it was because they were to be common use gates.
So gates on Concourse C would have been unsuitable if they were common-use?
ytib From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 493 posts, RR: 1 Reply 94, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2407 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 93): So it's a bad thing that the airport arrived at a solution that was a win-win for both of its largest tenants? DIA eventually built a regional concourse for F9 & ZK as well.
The regional gates on A were there a lot earlier than the gates in the 80's and 90's on B which is the new regional terminal. The only expansion the airport has done on A is to add a couple of gates at the west end of the concourse. This has also been done on C.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 95, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2404 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 93): No, it applies to all carriers; the point is that DIA management did work for Frontier's benefit in freeing up the Ted gates for their use.
Frontier was only the beneficiary of what United wanted. After Ted, United haas even less need then previously for the A gates but did want the regional facility.
The saga of Frontier's gates on A is a long and unhappy one. The tube gates?
Quoting ScottB (Reply 93): So it's a bad thing that the airport arrived at a solution that was a win-win for both of its largest tenants?
See above.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 93): So gates on Concourse C would have been unsuitable if they were common-use?
Why promise them to Frontier, then, if it is the intention they be common use? And they did not not become common use. They both went to one airline.
But - all's well that ends well, and as Frontier removes itself from the fray, I wouldn't fall over in shock to see the airline give a couple of the gates back.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2069 posts, RR: 2 Reply 96, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2361 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 91): The bigger issue is that UA, B6 & WN all fly BOS-DEN, and a potential F9 entry into ORH-Florida would almost immediately be matched by B6
Having lived in the greater Boston area for five years and dealing with the horrendous bottleneck traffic With ORH being a good 1 to 1.5 hour drive from BOS (usually) I doubt Bostonians would drive to to fly from ORH. Not when you have more accessible PVD to the south and MHT to the northwest
I offer ORH for residents of mid-central Massachusetts including Fitchburg, Ayer and several others including the Hwy 128 and I-495 catchment area. I think ORH could support multiple carriers. I don't think F9 would go there in that there appears to be some bad blood between Massport and F9 .
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 97, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2318 times:
Mariner, are you talking about the AS gate at A51 and the FL gate at A53 in DEN? It really sucks how WN pushed AS out of gate A51, and I think that's just wrong, forcing AS to share gate A50 with F9.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 98, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2313 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 97): Mariner, are you talking about the AS gate at A51 and the FL gate at A53 in DEN? It really sucks how WN pushed AS out of gate A51, and I think that's just wrong, forcing AS to share gate A50 with F9.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6361 posts, RR: 34 Reply 99, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2245 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 96): Having lived in the greater Boston area for five years and dealing with the horrendous bottleneck traffic With ORH being a good 1 to 1.5 hour drive from BOS (usually) I doubt Bostonians would drive to to fly from ORH.
The issue isn't Bostonians driving to ORH; it is that B6 would almost immediately announce service from ORH on the same routes, just as they did when FL went into SWF. And for now, B6 is Massport's favorite child -- so they'd probably even get a heads-up before F9 could announce the service.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 96): I offer ORH for residents of mid-central Massachusetts including Fitchburg, Ayer and several others including the Hwy 128 and I-495 catchment area.
ORH has issues with drawing traffic from beyond the immediate area; road access to ORH is poor since it involves a fairly lengthy drive through congested Worcester city streets from the nearest freeway. Ayer isn't any closer time-wise to ORH than it is to MHT. And pretty much everything on Rte 128 is closer to BOS, especially with the Mass Pike now ending on the airport property.
Quoting ytib (Reply 94): The regional gates on A were there a lot earlier than the gates in the 80's and 90's on B which is the new regional terminal.
My understanding was that the regional gates on A were extended/expanded (beyond the earlier facility) for the benefit of F9 & ZK as well.
Quoting mariner (Reply 95): Frontier was only the beneficiary of what United wanted. After Ted, United haas even less need then previously for the A gates but did want the regional facility.
I agree that UA didn't need the gates -- but they had a lease for the gates and that equated to leverage. United was able to use the gates enough to satisfy the lease covenants. And United probably would have been happy to get the regional concourse AND keep the Ted gates if that had been an option, too.
Quoting mariner (Reply 95): The saga of Frontier's gates on A is a long and unhappy one. The tube gates?
To the best of my knowledge, the airport was willing to build a proper extension to A -- if Frontier were willing to commit to a long-term lease for the new gates. And in retrospect, it seems to have been a good decision as the carrier has chosen to return gates to the city over the past couple of years.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 100, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 99): To the best of my knowledge, the airport was willing to build a proper extension to A -- if Frontier were willing to commit to a long-term lease for the new gates.
That only became the issue later.
The A extension was announced in the dying days of the Webb administration. As soon as Mayor Hickenlooper was sworn in, he cancelled it,
It was revived later with the curly addition that Frontier has to commit to a long term lease at increased rates. Oddly (?) DIA did not require the same of Southwest with the planned C extension, which was to be built essentially for Southwest.
As I recall, Southwest declined - much as Frontier had done with the A extension.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 99): And in retrospect, it seems to have been a good decision as the carrier has chosen to return gates to the city over the past couple of years.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Who knows that might have been if things had been different? The question remains - why promise the two C gates to Frontier if they were to be common use?
But that's the past and - hopefully - Silent Siegel is lancing the boil of DEN. Since I fully expect Frontier to downsize some more at DEN, it's possible they may give some more gates back.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 101, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2131 times:
I did a count on the DIA website, and Concourse A has 30 gates (not including the regional jet facility), and F9 uses 17 of those gates. The rest are used by DIA's non-hubbing carriers such as AA and B6 as well as international flights.
Concourse B has about 44 gates (not including the regional jet facility), and UA uses all but two of them. The other two are used by Star-alliance partner US.
Concourse C has 22 gates, and and WN uses 17 of them. The other five are used by DL.
So the point is that all three concourses are occupied to the brim. I don't think DIA is being unfair to F9, but is trying to do what they need to do to accommodate all three hub carriers, as well as making space for all the others. They've only got so much space to work with, and trying to keep all three hub airlines happy can't always be an easy thing to do. I know there have been several gate shuffles along the way in order to accommodate WN's growth on C.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 102, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2113 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 101): I don't think DIA is being unfair to F9, but is trying to do what they need to do to accommodate all three hub carriers, as well as making space for all the others.
Now? Sure. I've no idea what the relationship is like now and I don't think it matters too much.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 103, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2066 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 102): ...I don't think it matters too much
I guess I don't see how F9 not getting two gates on C way back when matters all that much either...I'm not sure if WN was in the picture yet or not. As a side note, it wouldn't have been great for F9's connecting passengers anyway.
In my opinion, the problem was more with UA for taking up space on A that they barely used just to keep F9 from using it. I don't know if DIA management could have simply given UA the boot from A. But the addition of the new regional jet facility on B which opened around '06 or '07 allowed UA to operate solely from B while freeing up the A gates for F9, so it was mutually beneficial for both carriers.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22716 posts, RR: 88 Reply 104, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2048 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 103): I guess I don't see how F9 not getting two gates on C way back when matters all that much either...I'm not sure if WN was in the picture yet or not. As a side note, it wouldn't have been great for F9's connecting passengers anyway.
Southwest was in the picture.
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 103): In my opinion, the problem was more with UA for taking up space on A that they barely used just to keep F9 from using it
There's a very good overview in the New York Times of how it was in 2003, including some comments by Mike Boyd:
'Now you've got an airport that's in total chaos,'' said Michael Boyd, president of the Boyd Group, an airline consulting firm based in Evergreen, Colo. ''Put music to this and you have a soap opera.'
'United's demands are outrageous, yes,'' Mr. Boyd said. ''But they're in bankruptcy, so they've got to do it.'
But it is the past, probably only of interest to history buffs like me. However, the NYT piece reinforces the point that Frontier's glory days were when its market share was lower at DEN.
As the market share went up, profits went down (for a variety of reasons, including but not only fuel) and I wouldn't mind if Frontier got back to where it was then.
Antoniemey From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 1504 posts, RR: 4 Reply 105, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 1800 times:
If they were willing to expand the concourses outwards (without trying to extort money out of an airline as a condition of doing so) or extend the terminal to add a 4th concourse, they have all the space in the world. Not saying it should be done or needs done, just saying that in the long term equation, DEN is one of the few airports without considerable space restraints.
Make something Idiot-proof, and the Universe will make a more inept idiot.
OB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2966 posts, RR: 8 Reply 106, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1581 times:
Quoting azstar (Reply 43): A few airlines don't have ticket agreements with each other. Spirit, Southwest, Jetblue are a few that don't, so if you're delayed or cancelled you have no options on other airlines. Southwest, at least, has a real network and they can generally reroute you on one of their alternate flights.
Not having a ticket agreement doesn't mean that a customer has no options in the event of a flight delay or cancellation. Spirit will simply go to Kayak.com to compare fares and buy the cheapest ticket available arriving within 24 hours of the original flight. Who's to say the other airlines without an interline agreement can't do that, too?
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 107, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1556 times:
Quoting OB1504 (Reply 106): Not having a ticket agreement doesn't mean that a customer has no options in the event of a flight delay or cancellation. Spirit will simply go to Kayak.com to compare fares and buy the cheapest ticket available arriving within 24 hours of the original flight. Who's to say the other airlines without an interline agreement can't do that, too?
This is a quote from their conract of carriage, which indicates they do NOT do what you suggest. Maybe it depends on the mood or magnanimity of the individual who is handling the delayed/cancelled flight, but in my experience, and that of co-workers and friends who have flown Spirit, the only suggestion they offered was to fly from 3 to 5 days in the future when there were seats available.
7.2. Rebooking
When a customer holding a confirmed reservation on a flight will be delayed because of
a schedule irregularity (including but not limited to, a missed connection, flight
cancellation, omission of a scheduled stop, substitution of equipment, a different class
of service or schedule change), Spirit will rebook the customer on Spirit's first available
flight on which seats are available to the customer's destination without additional
charge.
Spirit will not reimburse customers for flights that they take on other carriers
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