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Bankruptcy Judge Voids APA AMR Contract  
User currently offlineAA94 From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 576 posts, RR: 2
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18261 times:

A bankruptcy judge just granted American the right to cancel the APA Pilots contract. The APA represents around 8,000 AA pilots.

Specific details are spotty, but an explanation of today's hearing agenda can be found here: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...ith-american-airlines-pilots.html/

UPDATE with link: http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/2...toss-out-its-pilots-contract.html/

[Edited 2012-09-04 15:10:36]


Choose a challenge over competence / Eleanor Roosevelt
124 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesonomaflyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1704 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 18169 times:
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An expected result. So now AA will impose a contract consistent with its renewed application. Is it safe to assume this would be considered a "temporary" contract with no fixed term while the sides try to reach a long term deal?

User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7498 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17993 times:

Just when you thought things at AA couldn't get more cuddly.


Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21521 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17821 times:

I assume this means that if things turn around at AA and the company is doing really well several years down the road, the pilots can go to a judge to get their contract voided and have newer conditions more favorable to them imposed?

Rhetorical question, of course.

Quoting LAXdude1023 (Reply 2):
Just when you thought things at AA couldn't get more cuddly.

Yeah, it's going to get pretty ugly over there.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBlueDanube From United States of America, joined May 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17756 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I assume this means that if things turn around at AA and the company is doing really well several years down the road, the pilots can go to a judge to get their contract voided and have newer conditions more favorable to them imposed?

If only....


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5419 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 17616 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
I assume this means that if things turn around at AA and the company is doing really well several years down the road, the pilots can go to a judge to get their contract voided and have newer conditions more favorable to them imposed?

Rhetorical question, of course.

Hey, if the pilots actually take an ownership option in AA then they absolutely could do that. Of course they would have to declare bankruptcy again which would destroy their investment but they could do it! Because it is just such an easy option....

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Yeah, it's going to get pretty ugly over there.

There? How about here!

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 16183 times:

Things are in chaos right now. The APA has notified management that they will not meet with them to discuss the 1113 terms. AA must now manage 8000 pilots independently with whatever terms they decided to impose. That alone could prove entertaining. I have no clue what is going to happen. I do know for sure, that the UCC wants a mutually agreed upon contract, as their attorney stated as much during the proceeding. So, this is all temporary. How long, I honestly don't know. But either something happens or AA slowly dies on the vine. That's it in a nutshell.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 16113 times:

Seems like this thread has a few hours priority over the one I started:

Judge Allows AMR To End Pilot Contract (by Revelation Sep 4 2012 in Civil Aviation)

Might I suggest the title include AA or AMR in the title as well as APA?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14257 times:

The operation could (and should) spiral into a train wreck. Everyone knows that the best way to run a company is to make your employees absolutely miserable!

AA pilots gave a lot to keep the company out of bankruptcy almost a decade ago, and the management team has been completely inept at running a viable company. Ridiculous that this came to court ordered ability to abrogate a contract... If terms are actually imposed, the pilots need to send a sharp reminder on the things they do to help the operation speed along every day.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7204 posts, RR: 17
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14218 times:

So given the fact that the APA approved the US proposal, is this more or less an open door, as far as pilots are concerned, for DP's ambitions? Or am I mistaken?


One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11420 posts, RR: 61
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14142 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 9):
So given the fact that the APA approved the US proposal, is this more or less an open door, as far as pilots are concerned, for DP's ambitions? Or am I mistaken?

My understanding is that the APA MEC has approved a term sheet with Parker. It is now, yet, however been voted on by the APA membership.


User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 30572 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 13894 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Hey, if the pilots actually take an ownership option in AA then they absolutely could do that. Of course they would have to declare bankruptcy again which would destroy their investment but they could do it!

If they're on the BoD, they can just attempt to vote in a more lucrative contract. UA's labor groups successfully did so with their BoD spots when they had partial ownership of the company.


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 12960 times:

Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):

Good example. And how did that work out?


User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1258 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 12384 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 8):
AA pilots gave a lot to keep the company out of bankruptcy almost a decade ago, and the management team has been completely inept at running a viable company.

And they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and their concerns over the long term viability of the company and all of their fellow coworkers? Allow me to call bullsh@t on that. They did it to protect their own behinds and nothing more. AA took a gamble by staying out of bankruptcy as long as they did. They tried to protect their shareholders and their employees by not wiping out pensions and investments through the courts. This was a noble effort and well thought of at the time by those same groups that are now vilifying them for not doing so. AA took a chance and they lost. That is unfortunate but it is what it is. Had it been successful, no doubt the pilots would be claiming all the credit just as they are now dishing out the blame.


User currently offlineavek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 12051 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 10):
My understanding is that the APA MEC has approved a term sheet with Parker. It is now, yet, however been voted on by the APA membership.

The US term sheet is effectively dead for the pilots now -- Parker would be a fool to stick to it now that the bankruptcy court has allowed AMR to alter the economic baselines sharply downward.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 11931 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 13):
And they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and their concerns over the long term viability of the company and all of their fellow coworkers?
Quoting Flaps (Reply 13):
They did it to protect their own behinds and nothing more.

First of all, it is silly to make financial decisions based purely out of the "goodness of your heart".... it is a quick way to lose everything.

The pilots took the pay cut to avoid having something like this happen. Unfortunately, instead of being pumped back into the operation, the money saved went straight into the executive's pockets.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 13):
This was a noble effort and well thought of at the time

Just shows how foolish those people were.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 13):
Had it been successful

It wasn't ever going to be successful, because it's not. But that's ok, we can let management take all the credit for all the good, and blame the pilots for trying to save their careers by giving up money, saying it actually hurt the company.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently onlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1258 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 11281 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
It wasn't ever going to be successful, because it's not. But that's ok, we can let management take all the credit for all the good, and blame the pilots for trying to save their careers by giving up money, saying it actually hurt the company.

My point is this:

The pilots and management (and plenty of others) are all responsible here. The pilot group was not heroic when they took the cuts. They were trying to save their bacon nothing more nothing less. Very hypocritical to come back now and whine about their terrible sacrifices of the past. Even their own union came under suit during that fiasco. In acting this way now they come across as whiny and spoiled brats. I have been pilot, manager and consultant in this industry for 25 years and have been seated at every place around the table through these types of "negotiations". While there is plenty of blame to go around on all sides/parties to the AA debacle, from a public perspective the pilot posturing has been the most immature. The pilots' concerns about their future are real and valid. For that I have empathy. Their juvenile posturing however elicits no sympathy from me.
For the record, I too invested close to 100G for my education. When things turned south for the industry I (as well as many others) looked ahead and decided get out and invest those talents elsewhere. Others chose to gamble and stay with flying. Each of those groups made a choice and each much live with the consequences. I loved flying but when it no longer fed the kids I had to make a choice. I chose to feed the family and give up a lifelong passion. It was a painful choice. Others chose the risk and for some it worked great and others it didn't. That is now turning out for many to be a painful choice. If you want to work in the industry by all means do so. If you want to make big bucks by all means do so, good luck trying to make money in this business though, those days are OVER FOR GOOD.

Its long past time for finger pointing. It is time to put aside the egos and rationally try to salvage what is left of AA for the sake of all at AA and the industry itself. While another merger may be doable the loss of a combined AA/US would devastate the industry. I envision the failure of the combined entity due to weak management and poor labor relations at both companies. They cant get their act together as individual entities. They will never be able to successfully operate the combined franchise. Does anyone remember the Bonanza/Pacific/West Coast into Airwest debacle? Ok, Im off my soapbox, flame away!!!!!


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 11063 times:

Quoting avek00 (Reply 14):
The US term sheet is effectively dead for the pilots now -- Parker would be a fool to stick to it now that the bankruptcy court has allowed AMR to alter the economic baselines sharply downward.

I'm afraid the investors would insist on the AMR deal. Parker would be out in a flash.


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17343 posts, RR: 46
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 10801 times:

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 17):
Quoting avek00 (Reply 14):
The US term sheet is effectively dead for the pilots now -- Parker would be a fool to stick to it now that the bankruptcy court has allowed AMR to alter the economic baselines sharply downward.

I'm afraid the investors would insist on the AMR deal. Parker would be out in a flash.


Why? Parker is a much more capable leader than Horton, who so far has been little more than tone deaf and hapless.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 15):
The pilots took the pay cut to avoid having something like this happen. Unfortunately, instead of being pumped back into the operation, the money saved went straight into the executive's pockets.

False. AA simply lost *less* money than it would have otherwise. There was no "money saved" to divert.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5566 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 10573 times:

Quoting Flaps (Reply 16):
It is time to put aside the egos and rationally try to salvage what is left of AA for the sake of all at AA and the industry itself.

I really have a hard time following your logic. You say that the pilots took concessions to "save their bacon", then go after them when they still get screwed over and complain about it?

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
False.

Erm, no. For starters, it's really no secret to us in the industry that directors and above get nice bonuses everytime they realize a cost savings. That's not a bad thing in and of itself, but as we've seen, the goal now has become getting the bonuses, everything else be damned.

BTW, you guys are aware that by steering the company into bankruptcy, Horton stands to make millions of dollars in bonuses? Hardly inspires confidence that any of the suits actually cares about anything other than their beloved bonuses.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 10200 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
I really have a hard time following your logic. You say that the pilots took concessions to "save their bacon", then go after them when they still get screwed over and complain about it?

Yes, he is saying that. I would say, given their completely uncompetive pilot agreement (even after their concessions) compared to the agreements of their peers, the pilots were completely unwilling to "give" more. Even though it would've just gotten them back to average. It's not just $/hour like you'll probably come back with, it's work rules and scope clauses that killed AMR.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 19):
BTW, you guys are aware that by steering the company into bankruptcy, Horton stands to make millions of dollars in bonuses?

Sorry, you're so wrong. Horton LOST millions the day they declared bankrupcy. He had millions on millions of dollars in stock options which were sent to zero by that decision. He personally will come out of this with a 7 figure negative without a doubt.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4190 posts, RR: 37
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10100 times:

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 20):
Yes, he is saying that. I would say, given their completely uncompetive pilot agreement (even after their concessions) compared to the agreements of their peers, the pilots were completely unwilling to "give" more. Even though it would've just gotten them back to average. It's not just $/hour like you'll probably come back with, it's work rules and scope clauses that killed AMR.

AMR's work rules are hardly better than DLs, and their payrates and soft money (work rule bonuses and such) are considerably lower.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineRDH3E From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 1605 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 10051 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 21):

AMR's work rules are hardly better than DLs, and their payrates and soft money (work rule bonuses and such) are considerably lower.

Like no ULH flying? And you conveniently ignored Scope...


User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2357 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 9984 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
Why? Parker is a much more capable leader than Horton, who so far has been little more than tone deaf and hapless.

Because the cost differential would probably not work. Leadership to Wall Street is the fortitude to stick it to whomever to make the company more profitable. And I don't write that in a negative sense. If you are a leader who has great raport with the employees and they think you are a god, but you can not deliver the number, you're out. If you are a hard nosed, could care less about what people think of you and make an outstanding profit, you're in. And rewarded.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12339 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 9904 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 18):
AA simply lost *less* money than it would have otherwise. There was no "money saved" to divert.

And yet the bonuses got paid, but you knew that...

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 20):
Sorry, you're so wrong. Horton LOST millions the day they declared bankrupcy. He had millions on millions of dollars in stock options which were sent to zero by that decision. He personally will come out of this with a 7 figure negative without a doubt.

Potential gain is just that, potential.

Quoting TVNWZ (Reply 23):
Leadership to Wall Street is the fortitude to stick it to whomever to make the company more profitable. And I don't write that in a negative sense. If you are a leader who has great raport with the employees and they think you are a god, but you can not deliver the number, you're out. If you are a hard nosed, could care less about what people think of you and make an outstanding profit, you're in. And rewarded.

And that leads the execs to stuff their pockets as fast as they can, and when they bail out with their golden parachute or get kicked out, the next poor b*st*rd has to come along and deal with the mess.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 MaverickM11 : It's possible they received bonuses as part of their compensation plan but a) that's fairly standard and b) it's small change compared to the cost we
26 Revelation : Bonuses can be made up of cash and/or stock options, and if they are indeed bonuses, they are tied to performance metrics.
27 tugger : Weren't the pilots offered the same bonuses (they were based on stock performance I believe)? TUgg
28 MaverickM11 : Why shouldn't they have been paid if they met the performance metrics?
29 HPRamper : Not always. At Fedex Express there is a policy of PSP which starts with taking care of your people first, which in turn results in better service, wh
30 XFSUgimpLB41X : The only reason there is no ULH flying is because negotiations stalled. Scope is on par with CAL... they've done just fine the past 10 years, wouldn'
31 LDVAviation : Nope... Scope was starting to squeeze them too. See what they tried to do at Newark once they could operate under United's scope clause. Continental
32 XFSUgimpLB41X : Not really... what they tried to do at newark was just cheaper flying, so of course they would take advantage of it. CAL was doing just fine. Not bec
33 SJUSXM : The bonuses the APA was offered, and APA agreed to let management have. However wrong they may have been to most pilots, the APA agreed to it. Well,
34 RDH3E : They did fine, but were absolutely being squeezed. They had one of the highest CASM's in the industry. To your second comment, what they actually did
35 TWA85 : CO did fine with their scope agreements because they didn't have to compete with UA at ORD, DL at JFK and both UA and DL at LAX, with their limited s
36 toltommy : Comparing Fedex to an airline of any kind is like comparing apples and bricks. Fedex doesn't face the cost pressures an airline does. As a frequent F
37 HPRamper : Fedex is first and foremost an airline, before it is a delivery company. It faces margins that are every bit as thin as a passenger airline. And why
38 TWA85 : Lets put it this way, comparing FedEx and AA is liking comparing BNSF and Amtrak. Yes FedEx and AA are both airlines, however the HUGE AND ONLY diffe
39 Revelation : C'mon folks, aren't we dragging this too far off-topic? Any updates on what APA and AMR are doing in response to the judge's decision? Given how long
40 MaverickM11 : Well that and there are essentially only 2 major worldwide freight carriers, where as there are a few more than 2 worldwide network carriers.
41 mcdu : For relevance to the plight of the legacy airline pilots, which carrier did you work for as a pilot? The armchair analyst that are more than willing
42 SJUSXM : Wages have NEVER been the issue. Each term sheet, including the 1113 implemented sheet has pay raises. It's all about scope and benefits. And it's no
43 incitatus : Why limit to airlines? Typically CEOs of larger, established companies have higher compensation than CEOs of new entrants. I am not saying that is th
44 commavia : That's the law of supply and demand, not the "fault" of anyone. ... because that became the barometer that investors used to measure legacy managemen
45 mcdu : Why? Because every time an airline like Vangaurd, AirSouth, Midway, JetTrain, Skybus, MaxJet etc enter a market with wages well below the industry av
46 Post contains links Revelation : My reading of public sources says all that was questionable was the policies on domestic code shares and on furloughs, and that AMR's spokesman has s
47 MaverickM11 : A whole what, 50 shells? Whoopie. The judge accepted pretty much 99% of the agreement. APA is delusional to begin with, but if they think that was a
48 93Sierra : Make the pilots unhappy...deal with the results. AA is going to have a lot of MX write ups and the worlds slowest taxi times My heart goes out to the
49 commavia : ... because every time one of those airlines entered the market, Wall St went to management teams at the legacy airlines and said, "why are you payin
50 DeltaMD90 : My heart goes out too but doing MX write-ups and wasting more of the company's money is childish and unprofessional. If they partake on that they des
51 Revelation : Labels such as childish and unprofessional really don't mean a thing. Some people here might have felt that the adult and professional thing to do wo
52 Mir : Because those pilot groups voted to relax scope to that extent. But if you went to them now and asked them if they regret that decision, I'd bet most
53 usairways787 : Both AA, and that Judge are absolutely disgusting human beings. My heart goes out to everyone at AA.
54 commavia : Nor can I. But I also can't blame management for asking for the same deal the management teams at AA's legacy peers got. Both sides acting rationally
55 mcdu : And those Wall St. folks are also the same people that brought us TARP. Yes, they are the people that everyone should answer to. Seems ironic that Wa
56 Mir : The cycle has to be stopped at some point. We can't just keep going around and around. Now it's AA who will be imposing a draconian bankruptcy-aided
57 koruman : Sure, but the problem is that in the USA you permit this absurd situation of "bankruptcy protection", which encourages venal executives to divert the
58 commavia : No argument. Again - you're arguing over how you want the world to be, I'm arguing this is the way the world is. If you don't like the impact that ba
59 bennett123 : Seems to me that "restructuring THEIR business" means that the staff, and their creditors, (particularly those with long term commitments) get shafted
60 koruman : Precisely. I can take Commavia's point that Chapter 11 may give a company a second chance. But it is inherently unfair and anti-capitalist unless it
61 Byrdluvs747 : I haven't been keeping track. Does this automatically mean that ULH flying with competitive costs is now possible for AA?
62 commavia : Pretty much. Well, the American brand of capitalism is far less punitive towards failure than you seem to be. And I'm very glad it is. Nonetheless, t
63 blueflyer : There will always be an upstart that thinks it can do it for less than the others, because it has the newest automation, because it started at just t
64 commavia : When supply and demand are at equilibrium. As long as there is somebody willing to do the same job for less, there will always be downward pressure o
65 Post contains images RyanairGuru : OK, but in doing so they are 'rewarding' those who fail When it's mom and pop and their diner doing it tough then it probably isn't an issue. However
66 par13del : All well and true, but the reality was / is that people need jobs. Scope may preserve jobs at legacies and make those pilots the top of the hill, but
67 Revelation : The question should be asked, but the reality is that the executive class always takes care of its own.
68 Post contains images lightsaber : Excellent analogy. Once a company is in bankruptcy, the fire has gone out of control. The bankruptcy process is far from ideal. Partially as it is fi
69 usairways787 : [quote=lightsaber,reply=68]Why do you say that about a judge? A judge applies the law. They should not, unless they are the Supreme Court, be making l
70 mcdu : The difference in the recent round of BK's of airlines are that they are strategic in their method. They enter BK with significant cash, undervalue t
71 blueflyer : If labor is to be subject to the whims of the marketplace, why can't the fate of companies as well? Why do they deserve the protection of a market-di
72 commavia : First off, a balance sheet does not indicate any level of profitability - that's the income statement. Second, how do you believe publicly-traded air
73 koruman : This is the most telling comment in the entire thread. Translated into English, it means that the state of bankruptcy law in the USA encourages airin
74 Mir : What's to say that after AMR comes out, some other airline will go back in and get competitive? Eventually, that's going to lead to AMR going back in
75 XT6Wagon : It also gives creditors extra legal rights. I think many miss that. In chapter 11 the creditors "own" the company as much as anyone. It prevents the
76 gigneil : You mean TARP, the program that saved 11 million jobs, stopped the entire economy from collapsing, was entirely repaid years ahead of schedule, and m
77 Revelation : Are we all forgetting the shareholders get wiped out during BK? In this case, the shareholders of the next instance of AA are the ones sitting today
78 RDH3E : Have you thought that just maybe, perhaps, the judge is a rational human being and can see that AMR's pilot costs are grossly misaligned with reality
79 LAXdude1023 : It isnt whatsoever. AA is where it is because of bland management with no vision and Unions that are out of control and unrealistic. Both need to joi
80 N737AA : The more you talk, the more I wonder what world you live in....Just sayin' N737AA
81 RyanairGuru : I might be putting my foot in it here since I'm not au fait with the ins and outs of the bankruptcy litigation process, but I take it that you are aw
82 blueflyer : My bad, I meant koruman's.
83 mcdu : It was the wall st folks that put the country in the position of needing TARP not the taxpayer. If it was such a great investment, as a taxpayer wher
84 Post contains images RDH3E : I'm going to try to keep a level head with you. But do you think that UAL, DL, and AMR were built solely by the ingenuity of the Pilots/FA's/Rampers
85 EaglePower83 : Yeah, management teams from decades ago. Certainly not any in the last 10-15 years. Lower management along with employees in the trenches have kept t
86 incitatus : Most Americans have a sweet life and have no grasp of how sweet they've had it. If America wanted to "dump Corporate America", any country would take
87 MAV88 : One way to look at it: The American auto makers could be a case study in bad management, poor vision and poor innovation. Toyota, Honda, etc. came in
88 MaverickM11 : The hub? The reservation system? The loyalty program? Ancillary fees? Nearly every revenue generating opportunity? Every money making, and losing, ro
89 LAXdude1023 : That could win an award for most absurd thing written in this thread. Managment makes almost all decisions regarding new routes and fleet. In the cas
90 RyanairGuru : To be fair to managers, they are legally obligated to put the interests of their shareholders (who want quick profit and subsequent raises in share p
91 commavia : Look harder. Interesting examples, considering they stand in stark contrast to AA's management, which - to my knowledge - has never pursued any of th
92 aluminumtubing : The APA board unanimously approved a strike vote today. AA is treading lightly so far, so it will be interesting to see who blinks first. I know a str
93 gigneil : That money goes to paying back the 8 years of debt the previous administration piled on us. Most people like the country running well, as opposed to
94 MAV88 : To each his own. You're rewarding failure. I don't care if it's an investment firm, or a car manufacturer. States like Ohio and Michigan, the poster
95 Post contains images HPRamper : A world where, clearly, even a publicly traded company can take care of its employees - non-union employees at that - and still keep the respect of W
96 Tan Flyr : [quote=Flaps,reply=13]And they did that out of the goodness of their hearts and their concerns over the long term viability of the company and all of
97 Mir : Not in their interest, sure, but that doesn't mean it won't happen. If various airlines use the BK process to one-up everyone else with favorable con
98 commavia : Just like - in reverse - how, in the 1990s, airline unions used pattern bargaining and [insert competitor airline]+1 to continually drive labor costs
99 Revelation : Indeed. It just shows that it takes a "special" kind of investor to want to invest in an airline. Personally, I think that "special" kind of investor
100 HPRamper : Not in any long-term way. If one is smart and very aware of the situation, a lot of money can be made short-term.
101 N737AA : Well put....most union members believe they are entitled to the best pay and benefits even though they do not perform but to the lowest acceptable st
102 incitatus : Do not take that for granted. Wages often suffer pressure in the other direction. A little scarcity in a particular skill in the job market pushes wa
103 XFSUgimpLB41X : If you look at inflation charts, airline union labor costs have never kept pace with it... it has been a continual down trend since the early 70s. Th
104 MaverickM11 : ie since deregulation, which would explain a lot. Fares have gone the same way.
105 Revelation : It'd be interesting to hear how you explain GM's turnaround then, as well as Chrysler's a few decades ago. The reality was that the liquidation of GM
106 commavia : And nor should it. The prevailing market price for any good or service - including an hour of labor for a worker in a given job or skill - is driven
107 TVNWZ : We also tend to forget that Japan and Germany basically started with freshly designed plants after WWII because we bombed them into rubble. And we ga
108 apodino : This is a big problem in the US imo. I know what the laws say...and I don't necessarily agree with it. It is mentioned on here often that the purpose
109 MaverickM11 : B6 is cheap--incredibly cheap. They would have been as successful, perhaps even more so w/o the IFE. VX is a total disaster.
110 RDH3E : Once the directors of the company have realized they cannot sustain the organization their responsibility shifts from the shareholders, to the credit
111 commavia : Not so fast. If, as you claim, the supply of "qualified" pilots has, in fact, decreased, that is only half of the equation. What about demand? Has an
112 apodino : During the RJ boom, the supply of pilots at the regional level skyrocketed, and created massive demand at that level. When they couldn't fill the cla
113 TVNWZ : Pay equates to "best." Don't think so or the Yankees would win every year.
114 MaverickM11 : It's cheap in terms of fares. B6 a) offered a service that wasn't offered in such volumes at the time from JFK and b) did it at obscenely low fares.
115 Post contains links miaami : AA announces new regional flying partner now that APA contract is abrogated. http://blogs.star-telegram.com/sky_t...lot-and-flight-attendant-base.html
116 LAXdude1023 : Unfortunately, as a society, the choice we have made is to make everything as dirt cheap as possible when talking about the airlines. Im happy to pay
117 MaverickM11 : That's fine, but there's no correlation between safety and pay
118 apodino : There is some truth to this...as pay is determined by longevity and carrier and not necessarily flying ability. That being said though, not all carri
119 XT6Wagon : AA's problem wasn't how much they were paying, its that they were getting nothing back for it. AA desperately needed to thin the pilots out, and get
120 gigneil : Not from an educated pov you don't. Years of service doesn't equate to being good at your job. There's no system for rewarding the "best". Just those
121 aluminumtubing : Yes, it is definitely my POV. I will be the first to admit that with a couple college degrees and 30 years as an airline pilot, I may not have an "ED
122 Revelation : Interesting that you should choose the word "average" because it fits right into what the previous poster was trying to say. The word average certain
123 XFSUgimpLB41X : Technically it does weed out the bottom since everyone is held to the same standard. The top get rewarded with instructor positions and such.
124 apodino : Just saw an article in the Dallas Morning News stating that AA will freeze the pensions on Nov 1. Could this mean a massive retirement is coming just
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