gr09 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2008, 114 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 23620 times:
Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 1): For some reason I read B748i Aeroflot.
Me too! haha
Anyway the lofts look amazing!
As for the 748, it's nice to see they are doing so good but who would doubt about that, LH is a master of their business. Shame though they could not make the new business class product ready for the A380 already...
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9705 posts, RR: 10 Reply 4, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 22928 times:
Looks great. Why doesnt an airline install it? That way they could put 4 - 8 more seats in F/C, as flat-beds there wouldnt be necessary anymore if the rich pax have proper beds directly behind (if other than with LH now the F/C would be on the upper deck).
Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 1): For some reason I read B748i Aeroflot. That would be a sight to see.
Yeah, that would be great to see. Shame they opted for the comparatively boring 77W.
But there is indeed a typo in the article. The pictures are labelled with "Aerosoft"!
Birdwatching From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3587 posts, RR: 52 Reply 5, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 22848 times:
Looks nice, but how are the upstairs areas evacuated? Wouldn't that be an issue? You'd be very far from the exits.
Soren
All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
KC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 11742 posts, RR: 51 Reply 6, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 22322 times:
When is LH going to get their next B-747-830? When does KE start getting their B-747-8B5s? I know KE Cargo has already taken delivery of 2 B-747-8B5Fs.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 8, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 22196 times:
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 5): Looks nice, but how are the upstairs areas evacuated? Wouldn't that be an issue? You'd be very far from the exits.
These lofts are for in flight use only - I don't believe they are designed to handle crash load when occupied. For take off and landing (emergency type situation) all occupants returns to their seats.
Quoting na (Reply 4): Looks great. Why doesnt an airline install it?
Does anyone know if these lofts displaces the stowage bins? If this is the case then that may be the reason why the lofts are offered for BBJ only.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 9, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 21821 times:
Quoting tonystan (Reply 3): Wasnt the lofts just a marketing tool and no one seems particularly interested?
They were marketed to 747-8 Intercontinental operators and potential customers, but it does not appear to be of interest to them.
At least a few 747 VIP customers are installing them.
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 5): Looks nice, but how are the upstairs areas evacuated? Wouldn't that be an issue? You'd be very far from the exits.
They are not occupied during takeoff and landing.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 8): Does anyone know if these lofts displaces the stowage bins?
I do not believe it does. On the 747 VIP frames, there are no stowage bins because they are unnecessary. In their place, blank panels are installed that allow more ceiling room.
ordjoe From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 586 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 21761 times:
This has always been talked about, I believe even VS considered this back in the 90's (the idea of private bedrooms). If F class has a hard time selling, I would imagine these lofts would be even more so. The people who could afford these lofts probably can afford private aircraft travel.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8008 posts, RR: 27 Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 21419 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 8): Does anyone know if these lofts displaces the stowage bins? If this is the case then that may be the reason why the lofts are offered for BBJ only.
I believe this area is a crew rest on the standard 748, so while the "loft" isn't offered, the area still exists.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 13, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 20286 times:
Quoting tonystan (Reply 3): Wasnt the lofts just a marketing tool and no one seems particularly interested?
No. People are buying them, so at least some are interested.
Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 5): Looks nice, but how are the upstairs areas evacuated? Wouldn't that be an issue? You'd be very far from the exits.
You're just above the main deck; there are exit doors all along the main deck. The evacuation methods employed for existing crew rests are fine for in-flight use in the loft.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 8): Does anyone know if these lofts displaces the stowage bins?
On a 747 it shouldn't; the crown space is big enough. On a 787 you do lose the bins below the crew rests when they're installed. I'm not sure about the 777.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 17808 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 14): Why cant this space be used for a passenger cabin on commercial aircraft.
Passengers can be located there, but not during take-off and landing due to their being only a single evacuation path (down the stairs). As such, Boeing pitched that area as beds for premium cabin customers (allowing conventional seating to be used in the main cabin as opposed to suites) but I am guessing passengers preferred staying in their suites (if Boeing had polled me, I'd prefer a suite I can sleep in than a nice seat and having to go back and upstairs to sleep).
Because the 747 was certified with passengers in the nose and passengers on the upper deck when regulations allowed only a single-evacuation path from those areas, the 747 can continue to have passengers in those areas. (I do not know why the two emergency exit doors were added to the 747-300 - perhaps due to distance from the front rows to the aft stairs?).
The 747 was not certified with passengers in the aft fuselage, so I expect such a configuration cannot be grandfathered in and emergency exit doors and slides would need to be installed and that would require significant structural changes.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 17245 times:
Quoting 777way (Reply 14): Why cant this space be used for a passenger cabin on commercial aircraft.
The crash load requirement for an occupied loft may be more than the existing structure can handle.
The loft is basically held on the the upper crown using a bunch of tie rods. Anything more substantial may cause unwanted load interaction between the fuselage and the loft.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 15194 times:
Quoting Stitch (Reply 15): Passengers can be located there, but not during take-off and landing due to their being only a single evacuation path (down the stairs).
There should be multiple paths; even the overhead crew rests have multiple paths. The 787 crew rest has a takeoff rated seat in it and two exits, even though it's designed for 3 people maximum.
justloveplanes From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 876 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14551 times:
Quoting cosmofly (Thread starter): Also it seems LH is getting 90% load factor on their 748i
What was LH's load factor prior to the 748i? Any information?
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 14318 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19): The 787 crew rest has a takeoff rated seat in it and two exits,
Tom,
Please expound. Can someone sit in those seats during take off and landing? Or is it only the seats are rated but not the seat installation?
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 13198 times:
There could be. The CGI only shows a single staircase, but it could be omitting other escape paths.
Quoting SSTeve (Reply 18): This (admittedly old) article and diagram make it look like the fairing diagram make it appear that the lofts sacrifice bin space:
Those appear to be specific to the 747-8 VIP, which has no need for overhead bins. Hence the closeout fairings.
I've been unable to find one for the 747-8 passenger model, but the Boeing 763-246C VLA Concept had an OSU and also had overhead bins.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12999 times:
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 21): Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 19):
The 787 crew rest has a takeoff rated seat in it and two exits,
Tom,
Please expound.
The 787 has two optional crew rests, an OFCR (Overhead Flight Crew Rest) at the forward end and an OFAR (Overhead Flight Attendant Rest) at the back end.
The OFCR has two bunks and one takeoff rated seat. It has two exits; the stairway and an escape hatch under one of the bunks that comes down through the ceiling.
The OFAR has six bunks and no seat. It has two exits, of very similar design to the OFCR.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 21): Can someone sit in those seats during take off and landing?
There is just one seat, and yes. The basis idea is that you don't have to use a revenue seat to handle the flight crew; with ~18hour endurance, the 787 is capable of lots of missions where you need four flight crew, plus a potential examiner/check airman/other 5th person. There are four seats in the flight deck; having the takeoff rated seat in the OFCR means you don't need to block out a revenue seat.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 21): Or is it only the seats are rated but not the seat installation?
The seat and the installation are takeoff/landing rated. As far as I know, the 787 is the only Boeing that's doing this so far.
AAMDanny From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2008, 316 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (9 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 9824 times:
Quoting KaiTak747 (Reply 17): I really don't think they are a good idea. I think most people would get quite claustrophobic, considering there are no windows.
I think they are a great idea. More space created = more rev. And if You get claustrophobic, then just don't go up there.
Also in my opinion (but the opinion of someone that sleeps in the loft of the 747 every week) these bed's would be great to sleep in as they all have the head end forward and not aft. I always find I achieve a much better sleep when I have my head forward to the aircraft, as the aircraft flies slightly nose up, if I'm trying to sleep with my head aft facing I feel like I'm sleeping with my head up. I know it sounds strange but until you experience it it's weird.
So if I was paying for F, I'd rather a nice F seat (and on a commercial side an Airline could fit more in) and then go up there to bed. Plus, if fellow Pax want to wine and down in F/J it would not disturb the passenger that want's to have uninterrupted rest.
I read somewhere on here Boeing was looking at the idea of moving Galleys to the upper deck and installing cart lifts to make extra space for more revenue seating.
tonystan From Ireland, joined Jan 2006, 1190 posts, RR: 2 Reply 25, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5635 times:
Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 13):
No. People are buying them, so at least some are interested.
Only people who can afford a 747-8 as a private jet! More money then sense. It was pushed at the airlines who have pretty much shunned both the cabins and the 747-8!
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5151 times:
Quoting tonystan (Reply 25): Only people who can afford a 747-8 as a private jet! More money then sense.
If you are mega rich, would it make sense if your security detail gets good rest while traveling? If you are mega-rich it makes perfect sense to provide some perks for the people who work for you (the assumption is that the owner of the jet will have his/her own state room and the loft would be for the "underlings").
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 28, posted (9 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5145 times:
And if you are using your 747 as your lodgings while on the ground, you'll likely want your staff and security detail with you on the plane rather then in an airport hotel and needing to commute.
Articles says "Boeing said of the nine Aeroloft-modified BBJ aircrafts that have been sold to date, all are for destined for undisclosed head-of-state customers."
Care to guess which states are these? It looks like our AF1s will have serious competitions
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26956 posts, RR: 83 Reply 32, posted (9 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4371 times:
Quoting ghifty (Reply 31): What's the point of the Aeroloft? I'm sure a 747-8i has enough room for bedrooms on the main deck.. or upper deck.
Yes it does, but by not using main deck space for them, it allows that space to be used for other functions.
A 747 VIP is a flying mansion. And like a mansion, you can dedicate rooms to the staff, or you can put them in another structure on the property and use the space for something else.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10886 posts, RR: 100 Reply 35, posted (9 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3624 times:
I think the posters are onto something when discussing the Aeroloft as 'staff sleeping arrangements.' When I looked at the video, I wanted to find a commercial application for this product. But we're talking 8 beds for a staircase that looks like it will remove 4 Y seats.
I couldn't imagine selling these beds to commercial passenger who would tolerate anything less than than a Y+ seat for takeoff, food and beverage service, watching movies/working on the laptop, and having a drink. I do not see a bed better than the top Y. While better than J, how many would pay more than J who wouldn't pay for F?
So as neat as the these Aerolofts are, I do not see a market for them on commercial airliners. Not unless far more than 8 could be put into a 748I. I would have a different opinion if 24 (or more) could be fit in a 748I without sacrificing overhead bin space for KE or LH or some new 748I operator. I somewhat doubt that is feasible...
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 27): the assumption is that the owner of the jet will have his/her own state room and the loft would be for the "underlings"
But high ranking underlings. Someone below a stateroom, but as there are only 8, someone high in the pecking order. Such as the chef.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 36, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3035 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35):
I couldn't imagine selling these beds to commercial passenger
The sky loft type configuration have been around for a long time with the 777 crown crew rest. Boeing have been trying to sell this as an option for paying customer to sleep for UL flights. But I have not heard of any airline who took on this business case..
cosmofly From United States of America, joined May 2009, 648 posts, RR: 0 Reply 37, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3010 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35): Is this sky loft in the same position as the crew rest?
I believe the loft is between door 4 and 5 and in front of the crew rest. I suspect there may be a door from the loft area to the crew rest area as suggested in previous Boeing Skyloft promo video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYAppQ26E2w
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 35): So as neat as the these Aerolofts are, I do not see a market for them on commercial airliners. Not unless far more than 8 could be put into a 748I.
In the above promo video, there is a version called Economy Suite which Boeing can probably fit 30+ of them between door 3 and 5. Y++ class? I believe Boeing needs to find a way to preserve the overhead bin space though.
motorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2817 posts, RR: 10 Reply 38, posted (9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3007 times:
Wow, impressive! But can't imagine a commercial operator using the Aeroloft! in this day and age of in flight security issues. Having even first class passengers in cabins totally unobserved and unsupervised for long periods of time is something I wouldn't be comfortable with as an airline planner.
bikerthai From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1628 posts, RR: 4 Reply 40, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
The video seems to suggest that the skyloft, crew rest, and all the other types of crown suites can run all the way to the tail of the aircraft.
Very flexible use of the crown area. Only reason not to use it is if the extra weight carried can not provide sufficient return on investment.
I can see a galley or crew rest being profitable because it frees up cargo or passenger seat space. Profitability of the other options would depends on premiums services and fees.
At least they can always remove the loft if the business case does not materialize.
tdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80 Reply 41, posted (9 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2590 times:
Quoting motorhussy (Reply 38): Having even first class passengers in cabins totally unobserved and unsupervised for long periods of time is something I wouldn't be comfortable with as an airline planner.
Class-of-service alone would dictate that you'd never leave first class passengers without a flight attendant in easy reach.
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But high ranking underlings. Someone below a stateroom, but as there are only 8, someone high in the pecking order. Such as the chef. 
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