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LH Cabin Crew On Strike Friday 7th September  
User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 6616 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Hello everybody,

I am starting this thread as there is a lot to discuss and in a couple of ours a 24 hour strike starts of the LH Cabin Crew.

Friday 7th September from 00:00 to 23:59 they are on strike. Many, MANY flights are cancelled already.

More information on lufthansa.com.


Please keep the discussion civilized and on topic!!

Thanks.

wilco737
  


It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

What percentage of flight attendants are UFO members?

User currently offlineAF Cabin Crew From French Polynesia, joined Sep 1999, 1038 posts, RR: 34
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 6512 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting LOWS (Reply 1):
What percentage of flight attendants are UFO members?

I read in the french press that LH has 18000 cabin crew members and 12000 of them are UFO members... so in a nutshell, a lot !



Ia Maitai to tatou tere !
User currently offlinekl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5114 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6472 times:

Not again.... Unions are nuts to go on strike over pay in the middle of the worst economic crisis ever. besides that the strike hurts the fragile situation overall in the country and beyond.

Why cant people who are not happy with what is in their contract( why did they accept it in the first place ) just quit and find something else instead of having a dispute with their employer but targeting the general public instead.



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8162 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 6459 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Why cant people who are not happy with what is in their contract( why did they accept it in the first place ) just quit and find something else instead of having a dispute with their employer but targeting the general public instead.

Because that makes too much sense. It's just like someone buying a house near and airport then complaining about airplane noise and demanding a night curfew 


User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6257 times:

Here's the big list of cancelled flights:

http://tinyurl.com/cbbh5f3

It seems like there will be no Lufthansa plane over the Atlantic tonight.


User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6249 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):
It seems like there will be no Lufthansa plane over the Atlantic tonight.

There will be. My flight is not cancelled: LH 498 MEX-FRA 

But for sure not many.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 639 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Why cant people who are not happy with what is in their contract( why did they accept it in the first place ) just quit and find something else instead of having a dispute with their employer but targeting the general public instead.

While this doesn't mean I endorse the strikes, the mindset that you present is dangerous and favors employers rights over employee's. For example, if my employer wasn't increasing my pay with inflation I would be damn happy to have a union protecting me.

You can't expect everyone who has a problem with pay and conditions in a job to quit - then nobody would be left in employment! These people want to keep their jobs but don't want to get shafted for doing so. Again, I'm not saying necessarily that the FA's in *this* case are justified but the sentiment you displayed is fairly heartless and naive.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineA318 From Bahamas, joined Jan 2008, 314 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

How does it work for the flight attendants that were due to work a flight back to their base from a layover city? For example, most of the flights from North America to Germany are canceled tonight. What are those crews going to do? Is LH going to pay to extend their hotel stay despite the fact that the flight attendants chose to go on strike?


Welcome aboard!
User currently offlinegrain From United States of America, joined Sep 2008, 92 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6142 times:

I hope this doesnt affect Sunday the 9th as im flying ORD - MUC

User currently offlinewilco737 From Greenland, joined Jun 2004, 8967 posts, RR: 76
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6135 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

Quoting A318 (Reply 8):
How does it work for the flight attendants that were due to work a flight back to their base from a layover city?

If the flight is cancelled the crew stays where they are.

Quoting A318 (Reply 8):
Is LH going to pay to extend their hotel stay despite the fact that the flight attendants chose to go on strike?

Strike is only in Germany, so no strike outside of Germany. Once the airplane arrives in JFK, the crew flies back to FRA, strike or not.

wilco737
  



It it's not Boeing, I am not going.
User currently offlineTonyBurr From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1021 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 5931 times:

I was on an LH flt from DTW to FRA the other day and the FA said that "one" of the reasons for the strike was that LH wanted the FA's to work TWO more hours per month. How can you support such terrible working conditions.  

User currently offlineStratacruiser From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 84 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

Any word on next possible strike dates after today? I'm scheduled on LH FRA-BOS on the 10th.

Dave


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5889 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Not again.... Unions are nuts to go on strike over pay in the middle of the worst economic crisis ever. besides that the strike hurts the fragile situation overall in the country and beyond.

Yeah I think unions should learn that strikes do nothing to solve the issues....in fact, it makes the issue more of an issue, because the airline (or company in general) LOSES money, money that the unions want them to spend..... nice logic there, huh   

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
There will be. My flight is not cancelled: LH 498 MEX-FRA

safe flight Wilco  
Quoting Stratacruiser (Reply 12):
Any word on next possible strike dates after today? I'm scheduled on LH FRA-BOS on the 10th.

I'm a bit outta the loop, what are they all nuts for ?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8929 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Why cant people who are not happy with what is in their contract( why did they accept it in the first place ) just quit and find something else instead of having a dispute with their employer but targeting the general public instead.

They are stuck with that company because of the seniority system. Technically they are not stuck, but the seniority system makes it very, very unattractive the prospect of quitting to go to another employer. This self-imposed switching barrier is partly why I don't like the system and would like to see it gone.

Also, employers are very well aware that their employees are "stuck" with them. That puts them at a disadvantage in the bargaining table from the very start of negotiations.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):
favors employers rights over employee's

Both employers and employees are human beings and should have the exact same rights.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):
You can't expect everyone who has a problem with pay and conditions in a job to quit - then nobody would be left in employment!

They can quit and go work for a competitor or in another industry if the employer fails to offer an attractive enough deal. In that situation, the employer has to sweeten the deal or go out of business. This happens with almost every job out there.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

In this situation, are the FA's getting paid for their strike? If so, who pays them? If not, would these work stoppages negate any raise they might get in the long run?

I had heard a rumor that the wanting a wage increase was only secondary to the fact they do not want contract cabin crew if a strike prevails. Could this be true?

I just cannot fathom a strike being the only logical answer to not getting your way. If I want my company to survive in the long haul, I would suspend my desire for a wage increase in the interm.

I feel horrible that passengers are being held hostage over this non-sense striking action.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12791 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5730 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Where does EK send the thank you gift basket?   

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):

Here's the big list of cancelled flights:

 
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
safe flight Wilco

I second that. I hope you make it to your final destination.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 13):
I'm a bit outta the loop, what are they all nuts for ?

Does someone have a list of the top negotiating points? I too would like to know more.


Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

Quoting yvphx (Reply 15):
If so, who pays them?

The Union possibly. If they can afford to strike they can afford to pay their workers (Or am I wrong?)

Quoting yvphx (Reply 15):
I feel horrible that passengers are being held hostage over this non-sense striking action.

Seconded. I hate it when workers take themselves over their customers.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5612 times:

Quoting LH422 (Reply 5):
Here's the big list of cancelled flights:

http://tinyurl.com/cbbh5f3

I couldn't find any India bound flights in this list. Does this mean the crew in these flights aren't on strike or something. I have a relative coming over to DEL today on LH and I'm hoping he makes it.
  



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 18):

I couldn't find any India bound flights in this list. Does this mean the crew in these flights aren't on strike or something. I have a relative coming over to DEL today on LH and I'm hoping he makes it.
  
Quote:
LH760 7. September 2012 13:45 Frankfurt/Main 00:05 New Delhi cancelled

Sorry.


User currently offlineJOYA380B747 From India, joined Mar 2005, 485 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 5543 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 19):

Quote:
LH760 7. September 2012 13:45 Frankfurt/Main 00:05 New Delhi cancelled

Urrgh... if this continues tomorrow then that'll be bad, hope they rebook those stranded to connecting flights. Any news if OS or Swiss are having such strikes?



If it wasn't for AI and those money mongers sitting in the parliament, 9W would have been as big as SQ...:(
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5509 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 20):
Urrgh... if this continues tomorrow then that'll be bad, hope they rebook those stranded to connecting flights. Any news if OS or Swiss are having such strikes?

There is no strike planned for this weekend. The strike only affects LH mainline, so only the Airbus and Boeing flights and only if operated by Lufthansa.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5422 times:

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 20):
Urrgh... if this continues tomorrow then that'll be bad, hope they rebook those stranded to connecting flights. Any news if OS or Swiss are having such strikes?

No, OS and LX are fine. This is only from a German union that represents only a certain part of LH's flight attendants.


User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5405 times:

Sarcasm ON...Rah, rah, rah...zip boom bah...Workers of the world UNITE, strike, strike, strike!!!   Sarcasm OFF

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Where does EK send the thank you gift basket?  

That started my day with a big smile, thanks!



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlineLH422 From Germany, joined Sep 2010, 396 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 5373 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Where does EK send the thank you gift basket?

Here's the address:

UFO Büro Walldorf
Farmstraße 118
64546 Mörfelden-Walldorf
Germany

 


User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 25, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 5409 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Does someone have a list of the top negotiating points? I too would like to know more.

  



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineAviaco From Germany, joined May 2012, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 5393 times:

I just checked the LH website with the list of flights cancelled due to the strike and noticed that the airline is cancelling flights until the 13th of September (next
Thursday). Why would that be?


User currently offlinedalca From Netherlands, joined Aug 2006, 518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 5400 times:

The LH Board and the UFO have been talking again this a couple of hours ago. Let's hope they can work it out.

My cargo sales are down this weekend because of the strike which is frustrating.



Zanair flight, please hold on finals as we have to clear rhino's off the runway. Next flight: AMS-FRA-AMS
User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 430 posts, RR: 2
Reply 28, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5317 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 16):
Does someone have a list of the top negotiating points? I too would like to know more.

For those who can read German, this is the unions website:

http://www.ufo-online.com/flugbegleiter/

Basically they are asking for

- a 5 percent increase of the salary, starting April 1st 2012
- a return of the salary structure as it was before 2005 - whatever that means. Maybe someone can explain?
- an extra month' pay if the company achieves an operating margin of more than 8%


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 29, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5267 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 28):
a 5 percent increase of the salary, starting April 1st 2012
- a return of the salary structure as it was before 2005 - whatever that means. Maybe someone can explain?
- an extra month' pay if the company achieves an operating margin of more than 8%

sorry but if that's what they want we can expect the next strike days. It would be cheaper to shut down for a month or more than agreeing to that. If LH would agree to a pre-2005 structure the pilots would come next and ground staff right after.

The company would no longer be competetive and the result would be bankcrupotcy and the loss of most jobs. I mean, i culd be sarcastic and add some items to the list like a company car after 5 years. The days when national carriers did not have to look at the costs because big daddy state compensated everything are long gone.

I hope that the wish list is a hoax. Yes or not, it's Unfug.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline_AA_777_MAN From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 178 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5225 times:

Quoting wilco737 (Thread starter):
Friday 7th September from 00:00 to 23:59 they are on strike. Many, MANY flights are cancelled already.

A ha... That's why I saw the LH 747 and A340 parked at the remote stand at ORD yesterday. Also saw 2 LH cargo
MD-11s at South West cargo, but I guess that could just be a coincidence though? The strike would not affect cargo would it?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9099 posts, RR: 29
Reply 31, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5182 times:

Cargo aircraft operated flights are not affected. Cargo however is, since all the belly capacity on the cancelled flights is lost, gone irreplacably and this will create another hedache for the company. There will be a huge backlog for days to come.


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1105 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5169 times:

How are they going to accomodate all of the canceled passengers. Naturally, Jörg in Köln can lose his vacation and get his money back, but Ashok who needs to go back to BLR cannot.

User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8162 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 3 days ago) and read 5122 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
They are stuck with that company because of the seniority system. Technically they are not stuck, but the seniority system makes it very, very unattractive the prospect of quitting to go to another employer. This self-imposed switching barrier is partly why I don't like the system and would like to see it gone.

I agree with you regarding the seniority based system but you're being narrowminded and assuming that a FA can only get a job as a FA. I know former FA's who made the transition to jobs outside of the airline industry, quite succesfully. Again, if you don't like the job or the carreer, chose something else. I know I've done it myself so I do not accept strikes for more pay and I think they should be illegal. Everyone knows what the salary is before they accept the job or chose a carreer. To complain after the fact is ridiculous. Striking for improving working conditions or safety I can be on board with. But the minute you ask for more money, you've lost all credibility with me.

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):
For example, if my employer wasn't increasing my pay with inflation I would be damn happy to have a union protecting me.

Why do you feel that your employer is obligated to do that? In a free market salaries are based on a variety of market forces and what's "fair maket value". Not what's fair for the individual or even the employer. That is why athletes get paid millions and by comparison, teachers get paid minimum wage. I'm not saying it's fair. That's just the way the free market works.


User currently offlineCaptainCrackers From New Zealand, joined May 2010, 127 posts, RR: 1
Reply 34, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5063 times:

This is getting very interesting: Christof Franz has told ZDF that LH is now willing to agree not to use subcontracted labour for its cabin crews.

User currently offlineSemaex From Germany, joined Nov 2009, 823 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

Spiegel Online is reporting some negotiations between management and Ufo are under progress.
Supposingly LH is willing to give in on the BER deal and offer the aproximately 200 F/As stationed there fixed contracts from next year on.


The article also names the terms and conditions which both sides argue about:

Quoting SPON:
Ufo fordert eine Lohnsteigerung von fünf Prozent, bessere Einstiegsgehälter und eine deutliche Gewinnbeteiligung. Die Fluggesellschaft bietet Entgelterhöhungen von 3,5 Prozent an, den Verzicht auf Leiharbeit, auf betriebsbedingte Kündigungen und auf befristete Verträge.
Die Lufthansa will ihre Personalkosten drücken. Deren Anteil an den Gesamtausgaben ist mit 22 Prozent höher als bei der Konkurrenz. Der Konzern will, dass das Bordpersonal mehr Flüge absolviert; die oberen Gehaltsstufen sollten abgesenkt werden, die Sondervergütung für Überstunden gesenkt. Neueingestellte Beschäftigte sollten weniger verdienen.

Ufo demands:
- 5% more salary
- better entry wages
- more bonus in case of company profits

Management offers:
- 3.5% more salary
- no more outsourced F/As

LH problems:
- wages account for 22% of fixed costs, much more than competitors
- need for F/As to work more flights
- wages for high seniory too much
- new regulation on extra salaries for overtime work needed
- too hight entry wages



// You know you're an aviation enthusiast when you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 507 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 5057 times:

When I began my career at EASTERN in 68, 1968 not 1868 LOL), I fully expected my working life to be with them. Well I did make it 25 years, which was a good run. The very sad reason that EA went under was the fighting between unions and management. I was in Management, so really can't see the other view point. But, as a supervisor in the FLL CC I was very close to interacting with our union guys. (I used to get my coffee from them, which was off the aircraft...no comment). Basically they were pretty much a great group. However they were subject to stupid rules. A can't do this only B. My point is everyone was part of a company that gave us all jobs and a life......The F/As and Management need to get their acts together or take a job saying...."plastic or paper?"

User currently offlinetraindoc From United States of America, joined Mar 2008, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4946 times:

Since LH and UA are in joint venture for TATL travel, I assume that some of the displaced pax would be flown on UA. I say some as UA is very full on its own across the Atlantic. Clearly they would also use empty seats on OS and LX as well. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I understand the problem with assuming.

Glad that I am on UA tomorrow, the 8th, from ZRH to EWR, and not LH via FRA or MUC.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 38, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

So what I see:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 28):


- a 5 percent increase of the salary, starting April 1st 2012
Quoting Semaex (Reply 35):
- wages account for 22% of fixed costs, much more than competitors

Guessing LH can't afford it with the economy?

Quoting Unflug (Reply 28):
- a return of the salary structure as it was before 2005 - whatever that means. Maybe someone can explain?

Wasn't the Euro economy thriving at this point?

Quoting Unflug (Reply 28):
- an extra month' pay if the company achieves an operating margin of more than 8%

Probably never gonna happen in any realistic case. I'm not a funds expert but IIRC LH has been running on very slim margins?



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinejreuschl From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 537 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4603 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 28):
- an extra month' pay if the company achieves an operating margin of more than 8%

So what happens to the margin if they have to give employees a full month bonus!? Sounds like an extreme demand to me.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 40, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 39):
Sounds like an extreme demand to me.

Unions are selfish beings.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineflashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4574 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
Unions are selfish beings.

And corporations aren't?


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7139 posts, RR: 17
Reply 42, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

Quoting flashmeister (Reply 41):
And corporations aren't?

let's not degrade into a political debate here. I think both sides though can agree that Unions have been somewhat obsolete in the last 30 years



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineairevents From Germany, joined Jan 2002, 870 posts, RR: 2
Reply 43, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

The union and LH just agreed on an arbitration. So things should get back to normal for the next days and weeks...


www.airevents.com
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4503 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
Again, if you don't like the job or the carreer, chose something else.

As an employer, and I have spent much time in that position, I prefer employees who fight for their job. The last thing I want is people who will jump as soon as something isn't to their liking.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
That's just the way the free market works.

If the free market can't handle employees exercising their rights, how free is it?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
let's not degrade into a political debate here. I think both sides though can agree that Unions have been somewhat obsolete in the last 30 years

I think we can all agree that many of the reasons why unions formed are coming back.


User currently offlinePA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 45, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

Well, I'm trying to remain neutral in that matter, even though I had been affected by the strike myself on 8/31, since I don't know who is more right or wrong, but from my knowledge, it's not only the FAs that haven't seen pay increases in years, demanding more. It's also LH wanting to cut costs on staff by 30% through outsourcing stations (HAM and BER) to 4U on lower pay-schemes, demanding less days off and asking for more flexibility, while long haul crews already fly with the minimum staff numbers (while Asian carriers use more FAs). The plans to outsource staff to 4U is obviously one of the major disputes.

At the end, both sides will have to compromise. I'd like to add that German law requires quite some steps before a union can legally call for a strike (oftentimes, courts prohibit them due to not having fulfilled all requirements) so there must have been some hard negotiation from LHs side for months as well. So after all, I wouldn't simply call the UFO strikes unjust or outrageous as some people here propose...

[Edited 2012-09-07 13:19:24]

User currently offlineflashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 46, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4293 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 42):
let's not degrade into a political debate here. I think both sides though can agree that Unions have been somewhat obsolete in the last 30 years

And I think both sides can agree that corporations have been somewhat greedy in the same timeframe. See? It works both ways. And by the way, there is no feasible way to discuss the strike and not have at least a somewhat political debate.


User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 47, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4005 times:

Hello everyone,

actually I wanted not to comment on any LH Cabin Crew Strike threads any more, as I did not want to get it spinning out of control once again... BUT after reading through this thread and the many different posts I can't help but giving you my point of view. A perspective from someone who is really involved! A Flight Attendant that went on strike!

As I do not want this to be turning into another name calling, user bashing thread - which needs to be locked - I will try to do so without quoting any other user. Instead I will only pick up certain comments or point of views some user on here and some other people out there in the public (luckily not the majority) have on this issue and the issue of a strike in general!

I will be very honest with you even to the point of giving you an insight into how much money I usually make.

First of all I'd like to say this: WE LOVE BEING FLIGHT ATTENDANTS and most of us LOVE working for LUFTHANSA. It was our decision to apply with this airline and to choose it over another! That's why we've come here in the first place! It's not only a job! It's a lifestyle. The glamour is still there - not as much as it used to be, but it ertainly isn't completely gone. The majority of us also loves working with people, taking care of people, providing good service at a quality airline which certainly has it's problems and isn't 100% top notch in every single aspect but can be seen as one of the better carriers out there. Also WE ALL realize that our salaries come from our customers, who we enjoy serving and making sure they'll get SAFELY, COMFORTABLY and QUICKLY to where they need to go. This is why we don't just pack up and leave as suggested by some users here. We've put in too much work, time and effort to keep this airline running and successful. We are a big part of why this airline has been so successful and we identify ourselves with this airline. WE DON'T HATE IT HERE, so why should WE leave? Why not possibly somebody else that obviously hasn't quite the same level of love for and bond with this airline and is therefore a lot more exchangeable? Those among the FA's who do hate it, trust me usually they do leave at some point! Nobody sticks around for ever when he hates his job!

We love this airline and we love our jobs and we've NEVER done and never wanted to do anything that'll hurt this company. BUT we've finally come to a point - after years and years of concessions, pay cuts, compromises, management changes, management failures and mistakes at which we realized ENOUGH is ENOUGH! We can't give no more and if we don't stand up right here and right now it'll endanger not only our jobs but the future of this airline and its stellar reputation in general!

Keep in mind that this was really the FIRST TIME EVER that LH FA's went on strike. Compare this to other legacy carriers around the world and you will see that we are certainly not the greedy, irresponsible bunch of brainless people that some accused us of! We do know that times change and we do realize that it's a tough market out there for airlines. But it just can't be that management is burning millions with wrong decisions, therefore hurting our reputation and then being let off the hook while the burden of lagging behind revenue and underachieved profits is on the back of the employees ALONE! This is not right!!!

We have taken so many cuts over the years. Only to name a few:

Billing of our overtime is gone! Did we complain about it? Yes of course! But did we go on strike or take it out on our customes? NO!

Our holiday pay (christmas allowance AND vacation allowance) is gone! Did we complain? Yes we did - only among ourselves - but we still kept silent and accepted it! After all we were told that we desperately have to save money (this was during a time when LH actually was called the Airline Powerhouse of Europe and was making profit after profit after profit ensuring huge bonusses to the management).

Our vacation was reduced from 42 to 40 days! Now one might say 42 days of vacation this is pure luxury! Well it sounds like a lot, but please keep in mind that this is based on a 7 day week. So if I want 3 weeks of vacation I have to take 21 days! Not 15 as it is with most people who only have a 5 day week! So with the 2 days being taken away from us we come close to the legal amount of minimum vacation by German law (which I agree still is a lot compared to other countries, but LH is a German airline, based in Germany)! Did we complain? Yes we did, we complained and we were frustrated about it but we knew this airline operates in a tough market and we have to make concessions and contribute our part in keeping this airline profitable!

We've waived pay raises for 3 (in letters THREE) years in a row! It hurt some of us very hard! Think about the inflation! Let alone how much the price for gas went rocket high! Many of us have to drive a few miles to the airport! Did we complain about it or go on strike??? Again NO!!! The 3,5% which LH offered (over a time frame of 3 years that is!!! Which is a point that most people were actually missing during the current events) does not even cover the inflation!

Our pay scale was frozen for a year! None of us climbed to the next level! We kept silent! After all we knew this airline needed to save money!

All the while our management was busy buying and investing into bankrupt carriers all over Europe! Burning millions of our hard earned money! Some airlines - such as Swiss - turned out to be a success, others not so much! But are we as LH FA's responsible for these carriers?

Then in 2011, we were not given a profit sharing! Can you imagine how mistreated we felt? Coming back from a flight from Narita after the earthquake, tsunami and Fukushima? Flying out hundreds of scared people, taking good care o them! Giving EVERYTHING only to check you mailbox and finding a letter telling us: Sorry No profit sharing for you guys... I was angry! So angry and so sad that I actually cried right there at my drop file!!!

Can you see how it all piles up???

Now what do we have to put up with on a daily basis!

When flying shorthaul one usually has a 12 hour day! 12 hours of almost constant work, lots of ups and downs, full flights with minimum cabin crew and almost no time for a real break! It certainly is not like it used to be. Sometimes we don't even have time to drink a cup of coffe during the turnaround! The turnaround times are too short! We do not complain about it as we know that we compete with low-cost carriers that manage even shorter turnaround times! So we get our act together and we keep smiling and welcome the next passengers who will then complain about the lack of overhead luggage space and missing closets/wardrobes in Business ever since we changed to higher density seating.

We smile, try to stow as many bags as possible and put our passengers at ease when we do have to unload their bags because we simply can't handle no more! We do this up to 5 times a day and up to 5 days in a row! It can be tiring and it can be frustrating but it can also be very rewarding - especially when we realize and are being told by our customers that we do a great job and that we actually do it better than Ryanair! Because we are still a full service airline. Passengers don't have to pay for checking their bags - even at the last minute on the plane - we serve them drinks and snacks and even hot meals at no extra charge and we can offer them services Ryanair can't! And it gives you the feeling that you were a productive part of this company and that we can actually take it on with them! It's our job! It's what being a flight attendant requires! And we happily sip on our cappucinos in Rome or enjoy french fries in Brussels and realize on our 9 hour layover: there is still a little glamour, even flying shorthaul! We don't complain!

Long haul of course is more rewarding! Longer layovers with the opportunity to really explore the world! The glamour is certainly still there. But it has also changed and became more challenging both for LH and for us a FA's. Yes we are ashamed when - in September of 2012! - we have to greet you on an old 747 without in-seat video in Economy, no full flat beds in Business and tiny monitors in First. Yes we are sorry when we run out of your meal choice and we are certainly embarrased when we don't have enough hot meals in Economy and have to tell you that you have to wait in order to get a Business Class leftover!

YES it all bothers us, especially because we know that we are in direct competition with world class airlines a la Emirates etc. who make it tough on us. And guess what: we've been telling them for years that LH should invest in their on board product! Cater enough meals, install in-seat video, be more innovative with new seats - after all when you wait for what the competition is coming out with, you should be able to surpass them!!! Our voices were NOT heard! Often times we were blandly told: Our airplanes are still full, so why should we invest? It's not neccesary! Our strenght lies somewhere else! German efficiency and quality were the catchwords! Now this arrogance pays back. Now they realize it! Asking us for even more concessions! Is that right???

If it was for us our product would be top-notch! The money was there. We made the money! Instead of investing it into bankrupt airlines they should have invested it in our own airline, using it to be innovative and creative!!! To be able to stay competitive! And fight back those highly subsidized gulf carriers.

We do our jobs right, and we ask our management to do theirs right! After all they make a hell lot of money! So it's THEIR responsibility to ensure that this company stays profitable. And it certainly can't be that we as employees have to pay for EVERTHING they are not doing right!

Now instead of taking advantage of a highly motivated workforce that was willing to give so much, to work a whole lot more for less money, who was still happy and very proud to be there, they keep using and absuing us, finally threatening us with taking away the last thing that LH really has to offer: JOB SECURITY!

It is not true that LH pays the best wages in the industry! It all must be put into perspective! Our salaries are okay, even after all the cuts, they are still okay! But that's it! OKAY - Neither more nor less. And as much as they keep comparing us to other carriers around the world, this is still a company that is based in Germany, with the majority of it's FA's based in Germany who all have to make ends meet HERE in Germany or Europe, or if living somewhere else have to commute here. And it must be possible for workers HERE in Europe to work for a company HERE and make a living HERE. If that's not possible - regardless of how strong the competition is - then we all need to pack up and leave. Because the jobs can be outsorced to chaep foreign labor, but the cost of living can not!

Let me tell you what I made this August. I am on salary level 7. Even though I have 14 years with the LH company group. When I came from another airline within the LH company group (which had a different FA contract) I kept my date of employment and company seniority, but was stapled to the bottom of the LH mainline seniority list and pay scale. I did not object this and accepted it, so don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining. I flew three 3 day trips to IAD, one 3 day trip to JFK and a 4 day trip to DEN. I also had a day of recurrent Emergency training (worth 3,5 hrs) so this made up for a total of 81 hours (as one return leg was in September) flight hours that is - basically only the time from when the aircraft pushes back from the gate until it arrives at the gate, briefing, boarding etc. not included - and I made roughly EUR 1850,- after taxes! Plus per diem which was roughly EUR 500,- So this is nowhere near the 40.000 Euros that some people suggested we make after 5 years with the company. Okay I'll be very honest and admit it could be slightly more as I'm only making about 91% of what I could be making in level 7 as I have a complete month of unpaid leave or part-time as we call it. Now you tell me if you really think this is GREAT money! I don't think it's great. I think it's still okay, but certainly not great.

We've certainly come to a point where we can't give more. A Ryanair FA can make a much better pay check than most junior LH FA's can. Again this is because you have to put things into perspective. Ryanair does not have senior FA's who want to make this a life long career. I highly doubt that FA's who want this to be a carrer apply with a low cost airline. They go to a low cost airline because they wanna make quick money - and yes they do make good money actually because they are flying high hours - having a little fun all along the way and then leave after a few years and take a totally different career path OR in many cases, because they love being FA's applying with a legacy carrier. So they know what to expect when applying with a low cost carrier.

When we applied with LH we also knew what we wanted and what to expect, and this was the reason we applied with them and not somebody else. But what was once a given factor at LH and the reason we came here is slowly dwindling away. And this is a development that has to be stopped at all cost! But not only in the interest of our jobs but also in the interest of LH. We don't want this to become another low cost carrier. We want this to remain a full service, legacy carrier. But if you want the be a full service premium carrier you have to offer your workforce a little more than what a low cost carrier has to offer. Because a legacy carrier needs motivated employees that feel part of the company and give everything in the best interest of the company they feel part of. And that one thing is JOB SECURITY and a CAREER with a perspective. So management should stop comparing us to Ryanair, because they simply don't wanna become another Ryanair either. They want quality, which they can only get if they treat us fairly!

WE ARE LUFTHANSA. We are the company, we are the heart and the soul of this airline and if they destroy that by outsourcing to cheap labor that is actually not even employed with the company it'll die from within!!!

We certainly want this airline to stay competitive and successful! But WITH US not AGAINST US!

And this is why we finally stood up. After all we've done and given to the company, after all the concessions and pay cuts we've taken they threaten us with cheap outsourced labor! Now you decide for yourself if you belive that this strike was disproportional and unjustified! I leave it up to all of you what you think about it. If you wanna blame us for it or not!

Is it really so bad that we are trying to protect what we have? Our future, our job security, our company? Is it really unjustified!

I wanna end this with saying: It is a given right, a fundamental right to protect what you have, to protect your standard of living, to protect your career, your job your future. It is a fundamental right to do that! And this strike was legal and justified, because oherwise it would have been called off and prohibited by the court! And now I actually do have to quote another user:

Quoting cmf (Reply 44):
As an employer, and I have spent much time in that position, I prefer employees who fight for their job. The last thing I want is people who will jump as soon as something isn't to their liking.
Quoting cmf (Reply 44):
If the free market can't handle employees exercising their rights, how free is it?

cmf THANK YOU so much for that!!!

Now do you all believe it was an easy decision for us? That we had fun going on strike? It mostly destroyed our well planned September schedules. I personally was not able to see a friend I haven't seen in a long time and wanted to meet on a US layover. Friends of mine had to rebook their nonstop MCO-FRA flight to a much longer connection through IAH on United... and so on... most of us were personally affected by the strike... so it wasn't easy and it wasn't fun! But ist was neccessary! And it was worth it! I am very happy that I can go back into the skies on sunday and I am very happy that the union and LH management are finally back in talks an negotiations! But I am also very proud at what we've accomplished and that we finally stood up and made our voices and concerns be heard! And I think it's great that we can soon greet and welcome our new colleagues in Berlin that will be offered a REAL Lufthansa contract to the Lufthansa family!!! That's something we've achieved and can be very proud of!

Now you all think what you wanna think. I hope I was able to bring across my point of view, how I and probably the majority of us FA's feel and make you think it all over.

A very proud and happy Lufthansa Flight Attendant

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2012-09-08 07:27:27]

[Edited 2012-09-08 07:32:53]

[Edited 2012-09-08 07:45:27]

[Edited 2012-09-08 07:47:20]

[Edited 2012-09-08 08:00:18]

User currently offlinePA101 From Germany, joined Jan 2005, 491 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3866 times:

Thanks L1011Lover for your detailled insight report. I certainly agree that many mistakes of the past where done by LH
management (outdated on-board products) that somehow turned LH into the greyest airline of the
world (quote: airliners.net), so good luck to you guys!


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7038 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Thanks LH without cancelling my HAM OSL flight on Friday I wouldn't have enjoyed a 953km road trip, far more fun than flying. Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Norway in 12 hours great fun. I always wanted to drive over the bridge between Denmark and Sweden, thanks to the strike I got to do it.

User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3784 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
Unions are selfish beings.

No more so than management. Actually, I would say corporations tend to be a whole lot more selfish.


User currently offlineASFlyer From United States of America, joined May 2005, 1168 posts, RR: 3
Reply 51, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3780 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
I agree with you regarding the seniority based system but you're being narrowminded and assuming that a FA can only get a job as a FA. I know former FA's who made the transition to jobs outside of the airline industry, quite succesfully. Again, if you don't like the job or the carreer, chose something else. I know I've done it myself so I do not accept strikes for more pay and I think they should be illegal. Everyone knows what the salary is before they accept the job or chose a carreer. To complain after the fact is ridiculous. Striking for improving working conditions or safety I can be on board with. But the minute you ask for more money, you've lost all credibility with me.

Negotiations are a two way street. This is there only opportunity to secure better working conditions and pay raises. Non union workers would expect a raise when there review comes up and there company is making money - why should union workers be any different? The one difference is that if union workers agree not to take raises they then have to wait until their next negotiations (generally 3-4 or more years) before they get to ask for more money.

Of course you would agree with a union striking for the benefit of passengers in safety related issues - that affects you.


User currently offlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 430 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3579 times:

L1011Lover, thanks for your long post. I do appreciate your motivation, after all what you describe is what makes me feel good and safe on many LH flights.

I agree that management has made faults and that FAs and pilots should not pay for these faults. But I'd like to give you feedback on some specific points you make, just to give you another, an outside perspective.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Billing of our overtime is gone!

Billing of overtime never existed in my company (IT services), it wasn't ever even in question. Did anyone complain? No.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our holiday pay (christmas allowance AND vacation allowance) is gone!

Same here, never existed either...

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our vacation was reduced from 42 to 40 days! Now one might say 42 days of vacation this is pure luxury! Well it sounds like a lot, but please keep in mind that this is based on a 7 day week.

40 days at a 7 days week is still 5.7 weeks compared to 5 weeks we get.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
We've waived pay raises for 3 (in letters THREE) years in a row!

8 years here.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our pay scale was frozen for a year! None of us climbed to the next level!

Sounds normal to me, too.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Then in 2011, we were not given a profit sharing! Can you imagine how mistreated we felt?

To be honest, not really. After your post I think that you provide a great job with high motivation, but I don't think you are mistreated. 1850 € net certainly is not the management salary to get rich with, but taken into account that you had 81 flight hours in 16 working days (including some free time at your destinations) I wouldn't call it a mistreatment either. This is my personal opinion and I kind of have no idea since I never worked in that industry: taking your post and looking at the life of a LH FA I personally know I think the FAs salary could rise significantly if you did some more trips. I don't want you to start a new trip at the day you return, but I do have the impression that there is plenty of free time, again looking at my neighbor.

BTW we also do things like server maintenance in night jobs. The following day office time starts later, maybe even at noon. No complaints either. How much time off do you have after a working night? Since I know the salaries in my company I can tell you that people without university degree have a hard time to get your net salary with 40+ hours/week, 5 week vacation per year - and no additional benefits at all.

I do understand that you don't want anything you have (salary, free time, vacation) taken away, if you wouldn't object something would be wrong with you. Your feeling of having been taken away sounds reasonable and understandable to me. But I think the reason you have been taken away so much is that you had a lot others couldn't even dream of to begin with (how much do you pay if you book a vacation flight for your family?), and I think compared to jobs in other industries you still have taken a rather good choice...

Anyway, I hope there soon will be a reasonable compromise serving your and the companys interests: the company can't survive without all of you being on board, but you also can't keep your jobs if the company fails in the global market.

[Edited 2012-09-08 23:05:25]

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8929 posts, RR: 40
Reply 53, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
I agree with you regarding the seniority based system but you're being narrowminded and assuming that a FA can only get a job as a FA. I know former FA's who made the transition to jobs outside of the airline industry, quite succesfully.

Oh I meant only if you wanted to leave your current FA job for another FA job. No doubt you can go into other things, maybe even with the same airline.

I want FAs to have the flexibility to jump ship. This flexibility can be achieved by going into a system based on experience and skill rather than simply "time with the company".



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8669 posts, RR: 43
Reply 54, posted (1 year 10 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 3336 times:

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Now you all think what you wanna think. I hope I was able to bring across my point of view, how I and probably the majority of us FA's feel and make you think it all over.

You confirmed what I had been thinking about the strike anyway, so thank you!

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
To be honest, not really. After your post I think that you provide a great job with high motivation, but I don't think you are mistreated.

The LH F/As' feeling comes from being told that some of their jobs would be outsourced after several years of giving back privilege after privilege, while management is burning hundreds of millions. They've been spending them on the likes of bmi and AUA instead of doing their part to keep the company competitive - they could have invested into a decent hard product much sooner, but failed to do so.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineL1011Lover From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 989 posts, RR: 14
Reply 55, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day ago) and read 3044 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
Billing of overtime never existed in my company (IT services), it wasn't ever even in question. Did anyone complain? No.

If it was never there, then you don't really have a reason to complain that it's not. Right? You applied for your job with your current employer and you knew from the beginning what you were getting into. Just as we did. None of us FA's ever complained about anything that was not offered when we applied. Even things that were different with earlier contracts. We never complained about things that FA's hired in the 60's, 70's and 80's took for granted and still have with their old contracts We know times have changed... in some ways for the better in some ways not. We fight for things that every FA - no matter wich contract and date of employment - was offered when starting with LH.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our holiday pay (christmas allowance AND vacation allowance) is gone!

Same here, never existed either...

see above...

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our vacation was reduced from 42 to 40 days! Now one might say 42 days of vacation this is pure luxury! Well it sounds like a lot, but please keep in mind that this is based on a 7 day week.

40 days at a 7 days week is still 5.7 weeks compared to 5 weeks we get.

Absolutely. And while we didn't exactly like the two days being taken away, we gave them anyway as part of what we gave to keep the company profitable and more productive. I just added it to let you all know how much we actually gave to the company in concessions until the situation finally escalated.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
We've waived pay raises for 3 (in letters THREE) years in a row!

8 years here.

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Our pay scale was frozen for a year! None of us climbed to the next level!

Sounds normal to me, too.

If that all sounds normal and totally acceptable to you and you see no reason to do something about it, to complain and to try and change it, then all I can really tell you is: either it's your own fault when you silently accept all those things and see no problem about it, we can't help you, but don't judge those workers who don't see this as normal and organise in a union to speak out and stand up! OR I'm very sorry that you obviously have no choice other than to silently accept it. But still we as FA's are not responsible for other work groups failure to organise and stand up. We can only serve as a role model and show you how to do it. Either follow suit, or don't. But don't blame and envy us FA's for doing so.

Very honestly I'm very shocked that somebody would call a frozen pay scale and waving of pay raises for 8!!! years normal! Maybe that's part of the problem. Of course the big companies do it to us, as long as we let them! Let me tell you something: AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT'S NOT NORMAL, and it's NOT RIGHT! Especially when they keep raising their salaries and bonusses at the same time! And if things like that continue the gap between poor and rich will only get wider and wider... where this will lead us to one can only imagine! So stand up and fight for your job, your money and your right to afford a living. If you don't feel the need than obviously you don't feel the cuts strong enough. But we started to feel them and that's why it's our right to defend our standard of living!

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
After your post I think that you provide a great job with high motivation, but I don't think you are mistreated. 1850 € net certainly is not the management salary to get rich with, but taken into account that you had 81 flight hours in 16 working days (including some free time at your destinations) I wouldn't call it a mistreatment either.

THANK YOU! Yes I'm trying to do my job as good and with as much motivation as possible. But in order to do so I need to be treated and paid fairly. I never complained about the 1850 € net. I stated before that I think it's OK. You are absolutely right about 1850 € for 81 flight hours (pure flight hours that is, not actually working hours!) isn't a mistreat. I never said so. I called other things a mistreat, like not being given a profit sharing while management raised their bonusses! It's also my decision to have a full month of unpaid leave and "only" making 91%. I could probably make about net 200 € more. So the salary really isn't the problem - until now! But with all the changes they were planning it might become one! And all I was trying to do was to show you that we don't all make the HUGE salaries of at least 40.000 to 70.000 € annually as some people suggested, especially on forums like WELT online! If we would really make that for the kind of work we do and go on strike I would call us greedy indeed!

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
This is my personal opinion and I kind of have no idea since I never worked in that industry: taking your post and looking at the life of a LH FA I personally know I think the FAs salary could rise significantly if you did some more trips.

Yes that's correct. It would rise significantly if we did more hours. The problem with LH is, that they simply don't let us! I would love to do let's say one more 3-day trip and go up to let's say 95-97 hours. I could easily do that. I've been with a US carrier before and did up to 115 hours a month, and hell did I make a lot of money. But the system and how it all works is totally different at LH, so even if I would wanted to, they wouldn't let me fly more hours. It's something I've objected ever since I came here. But I have to accept it.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
I think compared to jobs in other industries you still have taken a rather good choice...

I second that! Absolutely right... It's a great job and I made a really good choice... But we are fighting for it to stay that way. That's all.... and I think that's somehow unerstandable, reasonable and justified.

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
Anyway, I hope there soon will be a reasonable compromise serving your and the companys interests: the company can't survive without all of you being on board, but you also can't keep your jobs if the company fails in the global market.

So do I! And I truly believe we're on the right track now! Thankfully!

Thank You for reading through my post and taking the time to comment on it. I appreciate it and I hope you don't mind my honesty regarding my comments and perspective on some of your views.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 53):
Quoting airbazar (Reply 33):
I agree with you regarding the seniority based system but you're being narrowminded and assuming that a FA can only get a job as a FA. I know former FA's who made the transition to jobs outside of the airline industry, quite succesfully.

Oh I meant only if you wanted to leave your current FA job for another FA job. No doubt you can go into other things, maybe even with the same airline.

I want FAs to have the flexibility to jump ship. This flexibility can be achieved by going into a system based on experience and skill rather than simply "time with the company".

And how would you suggest should FA's be able to achieve and get experience and improve their skills (as FA's) if it wasn't for the time with the company and the amount of flying they do over the years??? Sorry but I think you somehow stultify yourself. Experience can ONLY be achieved over time and with the amount of work you do. By the way that's the case with EVERY job and every position. So I really don't understand your suggestion.

The majority of FA's have the flexibility to jump ship anyway given the minimum qualifications they need to have in order to become a FA. If they wanna leave the airline industry and do something else they can do that because they already have college degrees and vocational training in other jobs. Working as a FA however can be a plus in finding another job because it definitely adds up to your life and work experience in general and somehow qualifies you to be able to professionally and calmly deal with a hell lot of crap. Also most employers do know that former FA's are somehow resilient and reliable people.

Quoting aloges (Reply 54):
Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 47):
Now you all think what you wanna think. I hope I was able to bring across my point of view, how I and probably the majority of us FA's feel and make you think it all over.

You confirmed what I had been thinking about the strike anyway, so thank you!

Quoting Unflug (Reply 52):
To be honest, not really. After your post I think that you provide a great job with high motivation, but I don't think you are mistreated.

The LH F/As' feeling comes from being told that some of their jobs would be outsourced after several years of giving back privilege after privilege, while management is burning hundreds of millions. They've been spending them on the likes of bmi and AUA instead of doing their part to keep the company competitive - they could have invested into a decent hard product much sooner, but failed to do so.

        

I have to THANK YOU!

Best regards

L1011Lover

[Edited 2012-09-16 08:58:16]

[Edited 2012-09-16 09:00:40]

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