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New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 119  
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 20168 times:

Welcome to Part 119 of the New Zealand Aviation Thread. In New Zealand Aviation Thread Part 118 (by 777ER 1 Aug 2012 in Civil Aviation) we discussed:

  • - Beech 1900D replacement
  • - CI Daily via SYD/BNE eff. 29 Oct
  • - Air NZ 789 configuration/deployment
  • - Air NZ PVG/KIX/SFO Mar-Jun 2013 schedule
  • - ZK-OKQ AKL-HKG-LHR Nov 1-2
  • - Air NZ Black livery
  • - Fedex MD11 visit
  • - Tongariro Ash Cloud
  • - 1900D grounding/inspection
  • - VA ceases HLZ eff. 27 Oct
  • - New FJ colours
  • - Air NZ 77E refit
  • - Air NZ 2012 Annual Results
  • - Implications of QF/EK Agreement
  • - QF Antarctic flight ex AKL


204 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25786 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 20178 times:

I was reading the September issue of Airports International which dedicated the issue to Asia/Pacific airports including several pages covering Auckland and Wellington.

I found it interesting to note since it comes up here is the importance AKL airport and NZ tourism board is placing on China travel.

Story mentions that today China is the 5th most frequent overseas visitor, but the dynamics are changing fast and in a few years, Chinese arrivals are expected to double and become the 2nd most frequent visitor to NZ after Australians. Also the Chinese visitors to NZ already have the highest average daily spending only second to Japanese visitors.

Article mentions as part of a broader “Ambition 2020” the airport and NZ tourism authorities will strongly focus on Asia – markets like China, India, Korea to drive increased visitors and trade. Story also mentions that traditional historic markets such as the UK continue to see a downturn as part of broader global market realignment from the West to East.

Story also mentions, that as part of expanded China bilateral in April, Air NZ will be allotted 21 weekly frequencies, and how NZ airports are courting additional Chinese carrier service as well.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3225 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 20060 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
Story also mentions, that as part of expanded China bilateral in April, Air NZ will be allotted 21 weekly frequencies, and how NZ airports are courting additional Chinese carrier service as well.

I'm assuming this is exclusive of HKG rights/flights? So, eventually (projected) daily PEK, PVG plus CAN (although CZ serves that well)? And where?



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25786 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 20024 times:

Yes HK has separate bilateral agreements than China proper.

What I found interesting was the keen focus AKL and NZ tourism authorities had on China as being the premier market to attend to in the future, which I suppose will go to benefit Air NZ and reinforces its efforts to make China flying a success.

I even note the recent QF-EK deal which will see realignment of Qantas Asian service with greater focus on local demand as further affirmation that China and the Far East economies are of growing importance to carriers in the Asia Pacific region.

I suppose over time if traffic from UK continues to see declines, and US stagnates, Air NZ could be seen shifting towards an ever greater Asian focus itself.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 19948 times:

In many ways China is the market of the future for the region. The other day was reading mere 2% of the Chinese population fly at the moment. This compared to 30-50% in more industrial nations.

As China continues to awaken, and the Chinese consumer desires to travel the world and spend their new found wealth, I think many companies and nations will fight hard to earn this business.

I applaud New Zealand, which seems to have the foresight to make a concerted effort and sharp focus staying ahead of global demand trend.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 19892 times:

If NZ returned to PEK it wouldn't happen till after 2015 until the new airport is built in the south of the city, then they will say that 8 runways is too many for them to obtain slots!

All the focus at the moment is on PVG which going to daily by next year could help, they just need to fill the front of the plane! which is not happening.

Would they approach CAN ? could be a tricky one to go for, without hurting the HKG market

NZ tend to go for long haul routes where there the only carrier with the exception of HNL,

Where else would they likely pop up in China? I would say maybe Chengdu, Kumming - Just had a new International airport built, and maybe Xian but would be a BIG MAYBE! all theses could be done with the 787's after the 2017 time frame.

Again it's just a waiting game the next several years,



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25786 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19831 times:

So if ANZ is not going to be carrying this projected doubling of Chinese arrivals who will ?? Chinese carriers along with 3rd nation airlines?


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 19802 times:

LAXintl, I'd urge caution about the Chinese visitor influx.

The visitors are currently almost entirely Discount Economy tourists on package holidays. Outbound travel is over 90% VFR and students by ethnically Chinese residents of New Zealand.

The Beijing route has already failed, and the Shanghai one has just had to be downguaged from a 77E to a 763 due to a lack of demand for lie-flat Business and Premium Economy cabins. There are two Hong Kong routes operated by New Zealand, for a market which is several decades ahead of mainland China in its economic development, and one of those two Hong Kong routes is also failing.

Meanwhile other key Air New Zealand routes to Oriental markets several decades of economic development ahead of China have also failed, including Singapore, Taipei and 3 out of 4 Japanese ports.

Daily spend by Chinese visitors is high, but much of it is restricted to a narrow-range of Chinese-owned shops and restaurants to which they are funnelled by the monopoly tour operators, who also have high margins for their tours. Actual patronage of non-approved shops and restaurants is minimal because independent time on their tours is minimal.

The NZ government has a strategic investment in Air NZ, and that is in theory why the airline persists with Shanghai in spite of an inability to sell high-yield tickets. My own opinions are well-known: I consider the FASCO staffing arrangements to be suspiciously expensive as well as opaque and I wonder whether any impropriety is involved.

I have lived in Australia for some time but have friends who own businesses in central Auckland and Queenstown who report minimal patronage by Chinese visitors compared with other nationalities. They do report significant patronage by visitors from Hong Kong and Singapore, but virtually nothing by visitors from the PRC.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1270 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 19752 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 7):
I have lived in Australia for some time but have friends who own businesses in central Auckland and Queenstown who report minimal patronage by Chinese visitors compared with other nationalities. They do report significant patronage by visitors from Hong Kong and Singapore, but virtually nothing by visitors from the PRC.

First I agree with what you say. the Chinese market is very different and often controlled by the tour operators. And tour operators dont bring much wealth into New Zealand nor do we see much spread on the spending.

But the VFR, "father of student" market is very different to the tour-operators. It contributes a lot to the local economy both directly and indirectly.
Ive seen figures from one well known European carbrand in Auckland showing that over 40% of the 100.000 NZ dollar plus category cars are bought by Chinese residents. In many cases its student on visas spending daddys cash. Money that goes straight into New Zealand and really contributes to the economy. Ive also seen ethnic estimations from Skycity in Auckland. the PRC nationals aren't scared to spend cash there thats for sure and SkyCity is part of the main society here. These are just examples.

While quite a few kiwis might dislike the sight of rich Chinese shopping in Parnell and Newmarket its very clear that luxury shops are depedant upon PRC customers. An associates wife manages a luxury boutique in Newmarket and she sees more than 75% of her high end sales to Chinese visitors. (Herself being HongKong Hokkien so we can say she knows the difference between PRC, Overseas Chinese and Cantonese HongKong customers.)
The money many of the VFR:s and students fathers spend in Auckland makes any finance minister wet his pants from joy. China will only become more and more important for New Zealand. if nothing else China's government will ensure that we see sizeable investments here so that they when needed will have some influence to balance the direct line where apparently the US can order the New Zealand PM and judiciary to do anything (hello illegal actions taken on direct order from the US against the fat German lad behind megaupload)

For NZ the challenge is to make these more wealthy PRC choose Air New Zealand.
At the moment they aren't, most come in on other Asian airlines. I know a diamond merchant in Auckland. he flies fortnightly to different Asian ports, always first or business class. He flat out refuses to fly NZ. This is a big issue and when I attend the European business communities gatherings in Auckland and we discuss travel hardly anyone flies NZ. Same goes for kiwi fliers heading to Asia on a regular basis.
NZ doesn't have a monopoly going to Asia thus we tend to choose the airline providing us the best benefits. Airpoints and loyalty doesnt work when there is competition and the flier has a choice...

As far as I can see, being in China is important for NZ. Its a strategic market that's growing. The key is if NZ can persuade this growing market to choose NZ and if they can attract other segments besides tour-groups and cheapest fares from Flightcentre.
If they loose the Chinese markets there is virtually nothing left in Asia.
Japan isn't a growing market nor does Japanese tourists flock to New Zealand.
Destinations such as DPS is more of the tourgroup flights just this time originating in New Zealand instead.

To be honest I think NZ has done pretty well lately in regards to their route map.
Airpoints has been devalued and turned into a shopping card. But NZ still get as many paying passengers so while some fliers will complain (and rightfully so), the bottomline doesnt. Where there is competition NZ has already lost most fliers and if your mainly flying east, TT or domestic you are likely to stick with NZ as it stands now. Sad but true.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19589 times:

The China market is slowing down like the rest of the world is, but the key is to advertise the route to start with , that was part of the reason PEK didn't work!

My partner works in a tour company here in Beijing and last year she was dealing with lots of groups and company's from New Zealand, however most were flying in on CA via SYD because no-one knew there was a direct AKL-PEK route!

Only yesterday I got the email from NZ China with special deals on, rtn to AKL from PVG for 5490 RMB + Tax only catch is that you have to book by the 16 Sep and Depart before the 23 Sep haha who's going go for that offer when all the schools and office people have gone back! SILLY!



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 19465 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 9):
who's going go for that offer when all the schools and office people have gone back! SILLY!

Most Chinese tourists would be on group tours anyway, and those who are traveling independently would have bought their tickets.




Perhaps it would be a bit early to ask: would the black 77W be doing the one-time NZ35 AKL-HKG-LHR on the 1st of Nov?


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 19428 times:

You might term them as “discount tourist on package holidays” but net result is still growing arrivals in NZ from China, with them providing record spending second only to Japanese.

So volumes are growing and they are putting money into the NZ economy one way or the other. Sounds like fruitful situation to me.

If you don’t want them. Send them to French Polynesia  


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 19406 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 10):
Perhaps it would be a bit early to ask: would the black 77W be doing the one-time NZ35 AKL-HKG-LHR on the 1st of Nov?

I believe this was established as a positive a few threads ago.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 19312 times:

Air NZ's 2012 Analyst Presentation contains the FY16 787-9 delivery info.

Page 18, Aircraft Captital Commitments
Boeing 787-9: FY13 (0), FY14 (1), FY15 (2), FY16 (3)
The first 789 is now expected in Jun 2014, so six 789's within the 25 months 01 Jun 2014 - 30 Jun 2016.

The 2011 Analyst Presentation was as follows.
Page 15, Aircraft Capital Commitments
Boeing 787-9: FY13 (0), FY14 (5), FY15 (0)

In 2011 the first 789 was expected in Dec 2013, so five 789's within the seven months 01 Dec 2013 - 30 Jun 2014.

A six month delay to the 2011 delivery schedule for the fourth and fifth 789's would have seen them delivered in the first six months of FY15 at the latest, 01 Jul - 31 Dec 2014. Now it's FY16, 01 Jul 2015 - 30 Jun 2016.

This means the fourth and fifth 789's have been deferred by at least 12 months beyond the six month delay.

Given that the two 744's will be retired when the first 789's arrive, that leaves only one 789 for expansion or 763 retirement before late 2015.

www.airnewzealand.co.nz/assets/PDFs/...12-annual-analyst-presentation.pdf
www.airnewzealand.co.nz/assets/PDFs/...l-results-analyst-presentation.pdf

PA515


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6436 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 19295 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 10):

The fact that the All Blacks should be on it should give some indication..



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 19185 times:

If were going by the number of 787's in 2014 (1) this would mean that the 763's are staying longer ? they just don't want to part with them!
I think the 744's could be staying too? but with QF just cancelled 35 frames would that have not pushed up the delivery time to early slots?



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinenzrich From New Zealand, joined Dec 2005, 1523 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 19165 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 9):
Only yesterday I got the email from NZ China with special deals on, rtn to AKL from PVG for 5490 RMB + Tax only catch is that you have to book by the 16 Sep and Depart before the 23 Sep haha who's going go for that offer when all the schools and office people have gone back! SILLY!

What would be silly is selling really discounted tickets during the peak times . One would assume the reason for the cheap seats is because there are vacant seats during an off peak time . That is called marketing and trying to fill up a seat that would otherwise go empty .



"Pride of the pacific"
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19115 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 15):
If were going by the number of 787's in 2014 (1) this would mean that the 763's are staying longer ? they just don't want to part with them!

That's one 789 in FY14 (01 Jul 2013 - 30 Jun 2014) likely to be June 2014, and the two for FY15 (01 Jul 2014 - 30 Jun 2015) will probably arrive within a few months of the first making three for the 2014 calendar year.

The 763's would be close to fully depreciated and paid for, probably cheaper to hang on to them for a bit longer.

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 15):
I think the 744's could be staying too? but with QF just cancelled 35 frames would that have not pushed up the delivery time to early slots?

It seems Air NZ doesn't want 789's earlier. Will be interesting to see who gets QF's slots though.

Perhaps Air NZ will look at getting some used 777's. SQ's 1999 777-212(ER) 9V-SQG, now N321LF and owned by ILFC, has been in storage at Goodyear, Arizona since 01 April. I thought someone would have taken it by now.

PA515


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 19043 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PA515 (Reply 17):

Maybe a B772LR would be better? Is AI still selling theirs?


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5351 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 18922 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):
Maybe a B772LR would be better? Is AI still selling theirs?

For NZ?! Management called it a flying fuel tank so not at all likely.




Quoting PA515 (Reply 17):
Perhaps Air NZ will look at getting some used 777's. SQ's 1999 777-212(ER) 9V-SQG, now N321LF and owned by ILFC, has been in storage at Goodyear, Arizona since 01 April. I thought someone would have taken it by now.

I wouldn't think this is likely now, they may have considered it pre GFC. I think they have enough aircraft to get by until the 787s arrive.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 18913 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 19):
Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):Maybe a B772LR would be better? Is AI still selling theirs?
For NZ?! Management called it a flying fuel tank so not at all likely.

Enable ORD/IAH/JFK/EWR to open sooner


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18818 times:

Interesting story;

Steve Ridgeway CEO of Virgin Atlantic is leaving the role because he is not happy with his pay! he told the GBO that he will stay on till the end of the year to help find a successor.

Names mentioned are

Julie Southern,the current Chief commercial officer.
Rob Fyfe CEO of Air New Zealand !! = VS becomes an LCC . . . ?



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 18809 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):
Maybe a B772LR would be better? Is AI still selling theirs?
Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 19):
For NZ?! Management called it a flying fuel tank so not at all likely.
Quoting 777ER (Reply 20):
Enable ORD/IAH/JFK/EWR to open sooner

It depends what payload they are looking for . If NZ's longest anticipated sector is about 16hrs the 789 is good for 30 to 32t . If they want 45t or better then the 77L is the way to go.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 18773 times:

As much as I have been a proponent of the 777 fleet being expanded - their window of opportunity has now closed for all except maybe the option to standardise on the 77W fleet.(outside chance - but still my personal preferred option c2011-12). I think don't expect to see any new or old 777s of any sort until the 77X - and I think there is a real chance that NZ will not order them to replace the 77Ws unless they have a real use for the capabilities by thenand if the 78-10 is confirmed the odds will increase. The time for 77L orders was ideally when they elected to order 77E instead, but even up until the middle of last year I think they may have been useful within the fleet as a means of getting to South America in particular or as a means of standardising on the GE90-115B engine/retiring the 744 fleet sooner.

The fact is in general for airlines the AKL/NZL market currently is too small to maintain continuous year round payloads of the magnitude mentioned by sunrisevalley for 77L to be worthwhile over the 789 on many markets, and those that are can are comfortably be covered by existing fleets. By the time the 789s are introduced it will be time for an entirely new product that can then be retrofitted to 77W as and when required. You can bet your bottom dollar that the 789 is still the aircraft they will get better use out of at this point in time, not the 77L

Given that the 763s are effectively redesignated as longhaul aircraft again I would not be surprised to see a short term refit to lieflat seats and some form of premium economy for NRT/PVG. They could quite comfortably function like this well after any 787 deliveries as they are 100% owned and unlike the 744 able to perform well on the routes they fly.


User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18561 times:

From the West Australian:

Quote:
Qantas is expected to launch a daily non-stop service between Perth and Auckland as benefits of last week's alliance deal with Emirates start to emerge.

Source: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-...tas-touts-benefits-of-partnership/

No indication of start date or aircraft type, or even what the source of the info was, however.



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 18749 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 24):
No indication of start date or aircraft type, or even what the source of the info was, however.

Interesting. Seats to Suit vs QF/EK. With forever decreasing Airpoints benefits, NZ can really only compete in the bottom of the market.


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18756 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 24):
Qantas is expected to launch a daily non-stop service between Perth and Auckland as benefits of last week's alliance deal with Emirates start to emerge.
Quoting xiaotung (Reply 25):
Interesting. Seats to Suit vs QF/EK. With forever decreasing Airpoints benefits, NZ can really only compete in the bottom of the market.

It's fascinating, because the much-vaunted rollout of Seats To Suit has now turned to cr@p on both the Honolulu and Perth routes, hasn't it?

Both routes differ from short-haul leisure routes by having significant numbers of Economy and Business class passengers who will pay higher-yielding fares for full-service.

And Qantas and Hawaiian Airlines effectively have carte blanche to take as many of those passengers as they feel like. They will basically get virtually all full-service higher-yield passengers in Economy class because of more included bundled amenities and much more attractive frequent flyer earning.

But they also have a free run at Business Class passengers too because Air NZ has massively devalued the frequent flyer earning rates for Business Class, which is almost unprecedented anyway.

It now takes 25 return Business Class AKL-HNL trips on Air NZ to redeem an award for the same trip.
It takes 7 return Business Class AKL-HNL trips on Hawaiian Airlines to redeem an award for the same trip.

It's only three months ago that Air NZ introduced the 777 with lie-flat Business Class on its Honolulu route.

And they are already having to retreat back to the 763 because you would have to be mentally handicapped to buy a Business Class ticket on NZ ahead of HA. 150% more expensive, but only 28% of the frequent flyer earning!

And Premium Economy has been a disaster too with Australian purchasers, who found themselves seated in Economy on Tasman sectors, enviously squinting forward and watching Economy (Works Deluxe) ticket-holders occupying the Premium Economy seats which they thought they had bought.

Even if you are having your travel paid for by a business, the attraction of a free Business Class ticket three times faster on HA than NZ is irresistable.

Luxon really does need to take control of this airline. He has two major tasks above all: don't deploy S2S against full-service competitors and get away from the insane dollar-denominated loyalty program, because every devaluation is far clearer to passengers than in a mileage based program.


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 18960 times:

Just wondering - on the effects of EK/QF on Trans Tasman. If AirNZ is buying some freight capacity on the EK operated flights, will this continue when QF are codesharing on the EK flights?

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 18884 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
Luxon really does need to take control of this airline. He has two major tasks above all: don't deploy S2S against full-service competitors and get away from the insane dollar-denominated loyalty program, because every devaluation is far clearer to passengers than in a mileage based program.

Yet for all your constant tales of woe and doom, the new CEO is inheriting a profitable airline.

It is no mean feat to keep any airline profitable in this day and age.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-09 23:24:36]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 18821 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 28):
Yet for all your constant tales of woe and doom, the new CEO is inheriting a profitable airline.

It is no mean feat to keep any airline profitable in this day and age.

To be fair, the new CEO is inheriting an airline where most of its routes have no or very little competition. I can't think of another country whose national airline has this degree of monopoly. However poorly this airline is run, it's domestic and short haul routes will always make money and it's long haul will always lose.


User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 18792 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 26):
And they are already having to retreat back to the 763 because you would have to be mentally handicapped to buy a Business Class ticket on NZ ahead of HA. 150% more expensive, but only 28% of the frequent flyer earning!

I'm sorry but again you spin facts that simply aren't true. The 777 to HNL was always only for a few months and the return to the 763 has been in the schedule for sometime and prior to HA announcing they would even open the route.

Why let facts get in the way of a good story though?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18763 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 29):
To be fair, the new CEO is inheriting an airline where most of its routes have no or very little competition.

Hmmmm?

Mainline domestic has competition but with fuel at these prices, I can't imagine that the (no-compete) puddle jumpers make tens of millions.

I'm not sure what you mean by "short haul" (if it isn't domestic) but trans-Tasman has considerable competition (and Emirates). The Islands have competition.

It is operating in a country with a complex geography and a dispersed population, so that the main hub is a million people - and connecting traffic is always of less value than O&D.

It also operates under an effective, government imposed, open skies policy.

So if long haul is loss making, then I think that turning a profit at all, under these circumstances and in this economy, is remarkable.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6436 posts, RR: 38
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 18780 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 24):
http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...-wont-end-trans-tasman-fare-fight/

The link above also mentions AKL-ADL.. Both routes would provide more options for getting to Dubai/Europe.



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlineDavidByrne From New Zealand, joined Sep 2007, 1650 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 18727 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 29):
However poorly this airline is run, it's domestic and short haul routes will always make money and it's long haul will always lose.

You can't make such a sweeping generalisation. NZ must be an amazingly "poorly run" airline to make a profit when so many other carriers are making big losses - or even going to the wall. Ho hum, just one more NZ-basher . . .



This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18294 times:

Quoting DavidByrne (Reply 33):
NZ must be an amazingly "poorly run" airline to make a profit when so many other carriers are making big losses - or even going to the wall

Exactly. Like it or lump it for all of us critics, NZ made a profit in a year that has them $45mill ahead of VA & $320 million or thereabouts ahead of QF - that IS an achievement that is better than any ATW award..

Quoting mariner (Reply 31):
So if long haul is loss making, then I think that turning a profit at all, under these circumstances and in this economy, is remarkable.

Yes - it is.
I will be honest - While not a gigantic profit, it took many staff by surprise that it was that big. I can think of many things internally that would improve profitability further, and yes there are changes they have made which have gone down like a lead balloon, but they are still a strong unit. I think the new management will be refreshing, and the company tweaked further.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 18298 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 34):
I will be honest - While not a gigantic profit, it took many staff by surprise that it was that big.

I think the more important point is that Air NZ has pretty much maintained profitability through some of the most horrendous years in civil aviation - well, WW2 might have been worse for some.

Qantas can't say that, nor can Virgin Australia, nor Cathay Pacific.

I'm not expecting radical changes from the new CEO, although - I hope - that he he may strengthen partnerships with a couple of other airlines.

For me, the Qantas/Emirates or Virgin Australia/Etihad partnerships are the way of the future for these end-of-line airlines and if looks as if Air NZ is jumping on a bandwagon, I'm okay with that.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKiwinlondon From New Zealand, joined Dec 2011, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 17632 times:

Does anyone know how CI are doing in AKL? Presumably well given they are now going daily. I do wonder how China Southern are doing, does anyone have any information on performance?

Kiwinlondon


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 17538 times:

Quoting Kiwinlondon (Reply 36):
Does anyone know how CI are doing in AKL? Presumably well given they are now going daily. I do wonder how China Southern are doing, does anyone have any information on performance?

Not sure about CI, but CZ should be doing well, they have increased their frequency.

I was searching for a AKL-HKG-PEK ticket on NZ's website, and noticed that for the HKG-PEK leg, they now have the option of going on KA (for the last 2-3 years, the only choice was CA). IMHO this is a very long awaited move to improve NZ's position in attracting PEK bound passengers. Unless one is a die hard *A or CA fan, the CX/KA offer was a lot more competitive than NZ/CA for a similar price.

NZ has also started selling tickets on HX/UO out of HKG, for example, instead of HKG-AKL, there is now a choice of HKG-KIX on UO transferring to KIX-AKL on NZ on some dates. It probably wouldn't be wise to go HKG-KIX-AKL though, given the on time performance of HX/UO is quite poor.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 17501 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 37):
Not sure about CI, but CZ should be doing well, they have increased their frequency.

CI will also start 4x a week via SYD in addition to the 3xBNE. It is obviously part of both their current strategies to the market to operate daily services. Neither carrier currently justifies the daily service loadwise yet IMO, but they have the right idea for new entrants - use correct aircraft, offer daily services, appear on all web/GDS fare searches, gain publicity and market awareness from agents willing to book them and the loads will eventually follow. It is far better than offering 2-3x a week with no market awareness because it doesn't show in any searches/FQDs unless you strike the right day. When that happens it becomes the only way to offer majorly reduced fares below anything the competition offers (as AR did to SYD)


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 3 days ago) and read 17285 times:

sorry for askiing what I should be able to look up - which days are the All Black charters operating? Will the plane fly over Dunedin? If anyone from a.net is onboard the plane it would be good if you can get some pix of Dunedin. First time a 777 has been anwhere near our city, even if only above it. Would be interesting to know what the menus are like on these special flights. - Argentine cuisine.

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7108 posts, RR: 12
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 17216 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 39):
Would be interesting to know what the menus are like on these special flights. - Argentine cuisine

Ah by that you mean steak, and more steak  


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 17016 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 39):
sorry for askiing what I should be able to look up - which days are the All Black charters operating? Will the plane fly over Dunedin?

AKL-EZE Sat 22 Sep 1940/1640
EZE-AKL Sun 30 Sep 1100/1700+1

NPE might get a look, but not Dunedin. AR used to head out over the Southern Ocean from between GIS and WLG, depending on the winds, often around NPE area.

PA515


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 16874 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 41):

AKL-EZE Sat 22 Sep 1940/1640
EZE-AKL Sun 30 Sep 1100/1700+1

Will the aircraft be on the ground for a week in EZE.?
Is there a web site that will show the flight plan?


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 16687 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 42):
Will the aircraft be on the ground for a week in EZE.?


ZK-OKQ will be away nine days. A 744 is used on NZ6/NZ5 and a 772 on NZ8/NZ7.

Sa 22 Sep NZ6/NZ5 744, NZ8/NZ7 772
Su 23 Sep NZ6/NZ5 77W, NZ8/NZ7 744
Mo 24 Sep NZ6/NZ5 744, NZ8/NZ7 (no flight)
Tu 25 Sep NZ6/NZ5 (no flight), NZ8/NZ7 744
We 26 Sep NZ6/NZ5 77W, NZ8/NZ7 (no flight)
Th 27 Sep NZ6/NZ5 744, NZ8/NZ7 744
Fr 28 Sep NZ6/NZ5 77W, NZ8/NZ7 772
Sa 29 Sep NZ6/NZ5 744, NZ8/NZ7 744
Su 30 Sep NZ6/NZ5 77W, NZ8/NZ7 772

On Monday 1 Oct ZK-OKQ arrives from EZE at 1700 and departs to LAX as NZ6 at 1940 or NZ2 at 2230.

PA515


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6436 posts, RR: 38
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16528 times:

With VS switching their LHR-NRT flights to HND, might this be a cue for NZ to start thinking about the switch to HND itself?


It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 16504 times:

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 44):
With VS switching their LHR-NRT flights to HND, might this be a cue for NZ to start thinking about the switch to HND itself?

This would be great for NZ, especially for connection to NH domestic flights and regional flights. But would NZ want to pay for the cost of switching to HND?


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16423 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting PA515 (Reply 41):

Spotted AR flying east of WLG frequently


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16364 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 46):
Spotted AR flying east of WLG frequently

So, could be a few of us watching www.flightradar24.com on Sat evening then?

ZK-OKQ was NZ2 Sunday returning as NZ1 Wednesday, then NZ2 Wednesday returning as NZ1 Saturday.
www.flightradar.com/data/airplanes/zk-okq

PA515


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16198 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 41):
AKL-EZE Sat 22 Sep 1940/1640
EZE-AKL Sun 30 Sep 1100/1700 1

do you know the flight numbers?


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2737 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16206 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 35):
I think the more important point is that Air NZ has pretty much maintained profitability through some of the most horrendous years in civil aviation - well, WW2 might have been worse for some.

Qantas can't say that, nor can Virgin Australia, nor Cathay Pacific.

Yes, but doesn't it all come from domestic operations, where NZ has (including its monopoly on regional flights) something in the order of 80 per cent market share? I'm not trying to belittle the profit, but with dominance like that, it's kind of the least you'd expect. Actually, it is the least I'd expect. Especially after years of very average numbers, including the boom times of 2003-2007. Which is why QF is downsizing international - domestic is still extremely profitable but it needs to realign the balance to get the overall profit situation sorted. CXis all-international and VA are on an expensive repositioning/expansion.

Meanwhile, NZ international ops continue to lose money, where they actually have to face some competition. Doesn't bode well for the company's resilience in the face of a new competitive threat. QF/JQ on domestic has been pretty a hamfisted effort care of their insistence on having an integrated Tasman/domestic fleet, meaning any delay out of Sydney very quickly reverberates across the system, undermining confidence in service and minimising the chances for corporate contracts. A decent domestic competitor (unlikely, I know) and NZ's profits dry up.

So yes, they made a profit, care of overwhelming dominance on domestic. Back patting all round. Headline numbers can be such fun.

Meanwhile, have they included employee count in this year's Annual Report? I haven't seen it yet (holidaying) but they seem to have stopped doing it of late, which makes it hard to tell what the revenue/FTE is like. Even with the 400 or so recent redundancies, I suspect there's a lot more fat to trim. Hopefully the new team can sort it.

In other news:

OneSmart - surprisingly handy for currency conversion and access. The rules and fee structure are pretty complicated though, so i'm never quite sure if I'm going to get charged something extra, and I hope they expand their currency options soon. But yeah, overall, so far (fingers crossed) a really handy tool. Have switched most frequent flyer earning to Krisflyer, so that's no longer part of the equation.

And what's this about domestic full fare flights now only earning 5 airpoint dollars? Be this so (stingy)?

Finally, someone asked in the last thread about the first ATR72-600 in the All Blacks scheme. Was in Toulouse for a week and didn't see it after a few visits to the airport, but will be back in early October and see if there's any sign or opportunity for a quick pic. It's meant to be delivered in October though, no?


User currently offlinemercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 1611 posts, RR: 2
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 16199 times:

I was looking for something else but ran across this August story about Chinese tourism to NZ.

According to new statistics released by the government both visitor numbers and spending have surged of Chinese to NZ.
Government actually expect Chinese spending to surpass that of Australians, the number one visitors to NZ.

Also government is working on tourism and trade development including story says negotiation air service agreements that could triple number if flights and airlines.
Also NZ government opened 4 visa acceptance centers to make is easier for Chinese customers to travel.

Chinese tourism market ripe for the picking
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/n...e.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10825725

Pretty good show by NZ authorities to boost things.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 16182 times:

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 50):
According to new statistics released by the government both visitor numbers and spending have surged of Chinese to NZ.

Better not tell a certain Brit living in Queensland that, it's contrary to what he's been preaching for a long time.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16075 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 51):
Better not tell a certain Brit living in Queensland that, it's contrary to what he's been preaching for a long time.

LOL..

The Chinese are the only ones that go into Louis Vuitton at the airport and actually buy something. They have no hesitation dropping $4000 on a handbag then they will have no problem spending anywhere else in NZ.

The reason for the 763 was to be able to offer daily services to PVG, not because they wanted to downgrade the 77E. The market can take it comfortably, but managing a frequency increase as well as a capacity increase (as daily 77Es would be) warrants keeping tight control on the revenue management, and the 77Es can be temporally utilised better elsewhere as far as fleet utilisation goes as such routes as PER & HNL go up to 77E etc.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
Meanwhile, NZ international ops continue to lose money

I think you are refering to international longhaul. International Shorthaul is making plenty despite the tasman/pacific having competition from QF/JQ/EK/CI...


User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 16038 times:

I don't dispute that the Chinese visitors spend large sums, especially when funnelled into Chinese-owned shops.

The problem is that Air NZ brings most of them over on discount economy packages, and that very few Business Premier seats were shifted even at very low fares, while Premium Economy sales were even worse.

If you compare the distances:

AKL-PER = 5,348 km
AKL-HNL = 7,063 km
AKL-PVG = 9,346 km

.....yet sales to and from Perth in Business Class are extremely robust (cashed-up miners commuting to and from work) while fares in Business Class to Honolulu are usually 40% more expensive than fares to Shanghai, even though the sector is 30% shorter.

So I think that the 763 is a good fit to Shanghai. In fact, they should consider:

a) switching from a 2-class 234 seater to an all-economy 315 seat 763.
b) moving to Seats To Suit.
c) introducing duty-free sales of luxury goods on board.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 15863 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 53):
The problem is that Air NZ brings most of them over on discount economy packages, and that very few Business Premier seats were shifted even at very low fares, while Premium Economy sales were even worse.

Do you know this for a fact or are you just guessing, unless you can quote a source all that you have to say on this subject is pure speculation.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 15794 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 54):
Do you know this for a fact or are you just guessing, unless you can quote a source all that you have to say on this subject is pure speculation.

On any given night PVG has a very healthy mix of everything, not dominated by groups at all. No more so than any other of the longhaul destinations..


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 15693 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 48):
do you know the flight numbers?

No, but charters have four digit NZ19xx numbers. 24 hrs before departure or arrival the flight number should be on www.aucklandairport.co.nz/FlightInfo...nationalArrivalsAndDepartures.aspx

PA515


User currently offlinenascarnut From New Zealand, joined Oct 2008, 295 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 15583 times:

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 48):
Quoting PA515 (Reply 41):
AKL-EZE Sat 22 Sep 1940/1640
EZE-AKL Sun 30 Sep 1100/1700 1


do you know the flight numbers?

Flt1934 will operate AKL-EZE on 22sep.
I imagine return will be either 1935 or 1933


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2268 posts, RR: 25
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 15463 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Confirmation of the upgrades to the 777-200ER's from communications sent out to staff. Should be on the news sites shortly. Unable to provide a link at present.

Air New Zealand invests in B777-200ER upgrade programme
 
Air New Zealand is investing more than $100 million in upgrading its Boeing 777-200ER fleet to ensure it continues to deliver the most innovative product and technologies to customers flying on its international network.
 
Air New Zealand Deputy CEO Norm Thompson says the upgrade of the eight aircraft is scheduled to begin in the second quarter of 2014, with all eight aircraft planned to be completed in the following 12 months.
 
Mr Thompson says the 777-200ER first entered service with Air New Zealand in 2005, and has proven to be a very efficient aircraft throughout the airline’s network. The 304-seat 777-200ER aircraft currently operate on a selection of international routes.
 
“With the introduction of the 777-300ERs over the past 18 months and the arrival of the 787-9s in mid 2014, the 777-200ER fleet will be upgraded to align the product across all of the three long-haul fleet types,” says Mr Thompson.
 
“We will be delivering the latest technology to our customers, including the Inflight Entertainment System developed in conjunction with Panasonic which will bring the latest in technology with improved resolution and capacitive touch monitors to all seats in the aircraft,” he says.
 
The new system called ‘Panasonic eXlite’ will have improved system performance along with significant weight savings through better component design and architecture. Air New Zealand will be the launch customer for the new system on the 777-200ER.
 
Mr Thompson says that in addition to the new IFE system changes, the upgrade will introduce the new elements of the Air New Zealand brand refresh seen in the interiors of the 777-300ER and A320 domestic aircraft.
 
This will see the Business Premier seats on the 777-200ER upgraded to match that on the 777-300ER, and the complete replacement of the Premium Economy and Economy seats.
 
“Air New Zealand was the first to deliver a lie-flat sleeping experience to our Economy customers through our hugely successful Skycouch product, and we are excited about enabling many more customers to experience this on our 777-200ERs,” says Mr Thompson.
 
A number of aircraft will also have new Air New Zealand livery applied during the same period.
 
“With pride this work will be undertaken at our Auckland Engineering Base,” he says.
 
Mr Thompson says that the upgrade is part of Air New Zealand’s commitment to maintaining a young, modern fleet, and delivering cutting-edge products to its customers alongside award-winning service.
 


NZ1
 
 


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 15252 times:

It may be a bit early to be asking but since Boeing are making noises about their 777-X, I wonder if AirNZ and Virgin Australia could develop a common specification, and perhaps make the planes interchangeable. They could even do that with 787s - 787-9s would be great in Virgin Australia operation - ie better frequency on BNE-LAX or MEL-LAX. Perhaps even a common specification with Etihad 777-X, if Etihad chooses that plane. (Etihad seems to like collecting shareholding in airlines, so if AirNZ goes on the market, I think EY would be interested).

User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15200 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 58):
Air New Zealand invests in B777-200ER upgrade programme

Thank you for the info. I am glad that NZ has chosen of continue flying the 77E. IMHO, this suggests that all 8x 77E will likely to remain in the fleet at least until 2020. The question is: are they going to stay 3-3-3 in Y?


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 15166 times:

So this means 10 abreast in economy in the 772?

User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7108 posts, RR: 12
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15114 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):
So this means 10 abreast in economy in the 772?

It didn't specify in the email but I remember someone saying that the 772 was unable to accomodate a 3-4-3 layout. Could someone else clarify.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15100 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 58):
This will see the Business Premier seats on the 777-200ER upgraded to match that on the 777-300ER, and the complete replacement of the Premium Economy and Economy seats.

That to me indicates that C will be upgraded to match 77W C, and PE & Y will be completely replaced (similar but not identical to 77W)...otherwise their wording should have been different...imo


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2268 posts, RR: 25
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15129 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting ZKSUJ (Reply 62):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):
So this means 10 abreast in economy in the 772?

It didn't specify in the email but I remember someone saying that the 772 was unable to accomodate a 3-4-3 layout. Could someone else clarify.

I can confirm that Economy will indeed go to 10 abreast

NZ1


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 15116 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 64):
I can confirm that Economy will indeed go to 10 abreast

Oh no. Considering that the 77E's cabin is narrower than the 77W, it will be worse.

[Edited 2012-09-19 00:40:31]

User currently offlineafterburner33 From New Zealand, joined Aug 2012, 70 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15110 times:

Does anyone else have 3-4-3 in their 777-200ER's?

User currently offlineWSTAKL From New Zealand, joined Jun 2011, 143 posts, RR: 0
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15108 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 64):

I'm sorry, but if this is indeed the case then the wording in that NZ staff comms is very mis-leading.

Air New Zealand is investing more than $100 million in upgrading its Boeing 777-200ER fleet to ensure it continues to deliver the most innovative product and technologies to customers flying on its international network

I can't see how cramming 10 abreast in Y is an innovative product for passengers. Or are they hoping Y passengers will be distracted by the new fancy pants Panasonic IFE to notice the difference.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 15071 times:

Jetstar NZ changes New Zealand ops,

''New plane to boost Jetstar's services''

Jetstar says it will provide more services, seats and create jobs when it adds another plane to its fleet - but will scrap its Christchurch to Queenstown service.

The airline announced this morning it will increase its New Zealand fleet from eight to nine Airbus A320 aircraft in mid-November, boosting services between Auckland, Wellington and Christchurch by 600,000 seats annually.

Jetstar will reduce services between Christchurch and the Gold Coast and Melbourne by one flight per week, continuing to provide three services a week and daily flights respectively.

http://tvnz.co.nz/travel-news/new-pl...e-boost-jetstar-s-services-5093574



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineLoveNZ From New Zealand, joined Jul 2012, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15050 times:

Interesting developments with the 777-200ER upgrades. I thinks its great for improving product consistency. I do have some questions/thoughts....

Surely if the feedback for the current 10 abreast economy was so bad the airline wouldn't implement this in the upgrade? Or does $$$ really override customer opinion? I have only flown the 777-300 once in PE on NZ and that was across the Tasman so I can not comment myself.

Does anyone have idea what percentage of FF's for NZ fly Long-haul Economy regularly say compared to PE and Biz? Again, would they have looked at feedback and the possible risks?

I had read somewhere that the crew don't particularly like working in 10 abreast but again, how much influence does this have on the overall decision of the airline?

Cheers - LoveNZ


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 15008 times:

Quoting LoveNZ (Reply 69):
Or does $$$ really override customer opinion?

Sadly, the majority of passengers only care about the technology products and food on board these days.

Quoting LoveNZ (Reply 69):
I had read somewhere that the crew don't particularly like working in 10 abreast but again, how much influence does this have on the overall decision of the airline?

My guess is next to none, as long as the config isn't a workplace hazard to the crew.


User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5351 posts, RR: 11
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 14970 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 65):
Oh no. Considering that the 77E's cabin is narrower than the 77W, it will be worse.

All 777s are the same width, I'm not sure where this comes from.

They are due to announce the 789 configuration soon, I'm guessing since they will replace the 763s that the 772s may have a few more premium seats than the 789s but less Y class? While the initial 789s are said to be looking at a 300ish seat layout with less premium and more Y.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7566 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14789 times:

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 64):
I can confirm that Economy will indeed go to 10 abreast

NZ1

Will that mean an overall increase in seats or will it just mean a more spacious premium end and a more cosy cattle class?


User currently offlineanstar From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 5264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14786 times:

Quoting afterburner33 (Reply 66):
Does anyone else have 3-4-3 in their 777-200ER's?

I believe Scoot do as do Emirates on the 772.


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 14792 times:

Quoting ZK-NBT (Reply 71):
All 777s are the same width, I'm not sure where this comes from.

In one of the earlier threads, someone suggested a conversion to 3-4-3 won't happen on the 77E because the cabin is not wide enough. Obviously that's not true.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
Will that mean an overall increase in seats or will it just mean a more spacious premium end and a more cosy cattle class?

My bet, based on the current 77W layout, is that there will be no major change in J capacity, a more spacious Y+ area which takes over about half of the forward Y cabin, and all the Y passengers get squeeze to the rear. Overall, the change in the number of seats should be minor.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 14692 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 74):
a more spacious Y+ area which takes over about half of the forward Y cabin,

I assume the Y+ style seat of the 77W requires more physical space than does the type in the 77E. If NZ are going to hold the Y+ count I guess it is stating the obvious that they will need the 10-wide in Y to be around 300 seats total.
Has anyone ever found a website that allows enthusiasts to play around with seating layouts?
I wonder if NZ1 could comment on the efficacy of the Thompson style layout. Are there any carriers using it?


User currently offlinemotorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 3225 posts, RR: 9
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 14676 times:

I don't understand why the new Y+ isn't 2-3-2 for the 777 cabins and 2-2-2 for the 787's. Any reason it would not fit/work? Can still have the 'Love Seat' with another on the side.

Quoting anstar (Reply 73):
Quoting afterburner33 (Reply 66):
Does anyone else have 3-4-3 in their 777-200ER's?

I believe Scoot do as do Emirates on the 772.

BA, KL and AF on their leisure routes. AA are introducing it too. There are quite a few carriers that are not of the perceived LCC or 'leisure' type including NZ.



come visit the south pacific
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 14540 times:

Well as NZ1 put it there going 3/4/3 on the 772's it kinda hints to which way the 789's are going ? oh my  


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 14484 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 77):
Well as NZ1 put it there going 3/4/3 on the 772's it kinda hints to which way the 789's are going ? oh my  

They will likely be 3-3-3 as per UA, ET, LA and a number of other 787 operators.. the 787 is not as wide as the 777 nor does it cost as much to operate. Blame the skycouch, which is one of several reasons for the extra seat in the row, effectively still "selling" 9 abreast plus the option of selling a 10th if they sell a skycouch.

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 76):

I don't understand why the new Y+ isn't 2-3-2 for the 777 cabins

This to me is far more poignant than 3-4-3 in Y and has been since I first went onboard OKM on delivery.

Having seen a full Y+ cabin on TK with as much space as it had, it is very apparent that while the yield on the U class for NZ is good, it is very low density yield which requires the fares sold to be fare more expensive and uncompetitive to compensate - It also takes up more valuable space for the same quantity of seats eg 6 rows of 7 vs 7 of 6...). which basically means that they have to cram 3-4-3 in order to have similar Y class capacity capable of a similar yield... Had the Y+ class had an extra row in each cabin as a result of fitting 2-3-2 in U then they probably would not have had the need to fit it 10 abreast., and we'd all be more comfortable..

More people willing to pay it off the bat is far better for PE IMO...compare the following example for a full cabin $4000x44 ($176000) or $3500 x53 ($185500)


User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 14346 times:

Talking about high density - has anyone on the NZ forum flown AirTransat? See the review in Airliner World (with bmi on cover) the new interior for AirTransat A330-200 has 12 Premium seats and 333 9 abreast tourist seats. Yes, a -200 not a -300. That is an aircraft for Vancouver to London. Apparently Canadians and people travelling to Canada ride in those seats without complaints in a price sensitive market. I wonder if Australians would accept seating densities like that onboard Jetstar?

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 14302 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 79):
Apparently Canadians and people travelling to Canada ride in those seats without complaints in a price sensitive market. I wonder if Australians would accept seating densities like that onboard Jetstar?

Given that there is a saving of 600-800 dollars flying Air Transat vs AC/DL/UA/AF perhaps there is more saving to be made for the suffering than JQ could do from here.. I personally would not fly that configuration under any circumstances.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 14167 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 79):
the new interior for AirTransat A330-200 has 12 Premium seats and 333 9 abreast tourist seats.

we paid extra for seat selection and grabbed the bulkhead seats but it cost us $140 extra but with that extra in the fare YYZ-LGW was about $750. I believe the recent layout change has increased the seat pitch since we flew last January.


User currently offlineBlueshamu330s From UK - England, joined Sep 2001, 2988 posts, RR: 23
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14094 times:

There was much chatter on here a few months ago about the performance of AKL- HKG- LHR and of its long term viability and longevity.

Without me trawling back through hundreds of posts, is their any evidence or quotes from ANZ confirming the fact the route was judged "at risk"?

Many thanks in advance.

Rgds



So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14081 times:

Quoting Blueshamu330s (Reply 82):
Without me trawling back through hundreds of posts, is their any evidence or quotes from ANZ confirming the fact the route was judged "at risk"?

The only suggestions were that the HKG-LHR leg had a frequency reduction from daily to 5x weekly, and the route is now getting the smaller capacity and older product (77E) as compared to AKL-LAX-LHR (77W). Both of these changes happened more than a year ago.

Rumours come up from time to time that the HKG-LHR leg is struggling, but as far as I am aware there has been no confirmation of this from the airline.


User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14023 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 78):
They will likely be 3-3-3 as per UA, ET, LA and a number of other 787 operators.

The seat width in 3-3-3 will be slightly wider than the 3-4-3 of the 77W. Assuming 18" ailses the seat cushion will be ~17.2"


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 13929 times:

how long ago did it change that NZ would not be the 1st A320 operator with the new sharklet wings? Air Asia will start receiving them in December of this year!


CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13848 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 85):
how long ago did it change that NZ would not be the 1st A320 operator with the new sharklet wings

I thought NZ was the first to order them , not necessarily the first to operate them.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7108 posts, RR: 12
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 13773 times:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crim...re-laser-prank-endangered-hundreds

A guy finally gets caught shining lasers into the aircraft flight decks and doesn't even get a jail term. He should be locked up IMHO


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 13702 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 85):
how long ago did it change that NZ would not be the 1st A320 operator with the new sharklet wings? Air Asia will start receiving them in December of this year!

If I remember correctly, NZ is supposed to receive them in Dec as well.

Btw, could someone update on upcoming aircraft deliveries and retirements for NZ?


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 13668 times:

ATr 72-600's are due towards the end of Oct, and into Nov,
didn't think there was an A320 showing up till around June next year, that was meant to be the one with the sharklet wings,
787-9's looking good for 2014,

Haven't got a clue on the 733's

and speculation that the last 2 744's will go around 2014/ early 2015 - any more 77W's orders in the pipeline ?

Maybe NZ1 could update us on this if and when he's not too busy.



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13597 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 83):
The only suggestions were that the HKG-LHR leg had a frequency reduction from daily to 5x weekly, and the route is now getting the smaller capacity and older product (77E) as compared to AKL-LAX-LHR (77W). Both of these changes happened more than a year ago.

Rumours come up from time to time that the HKG-LHR leg is struggling, but as far as I am aware there has been no confirmation of this from the airline.

I suppose now that Qantas has dropped HKG-LHR that would help loads on the AirNZ flight?

One of the rumours that has not happened so far - when QF and EK tied the knot some people guessed that Qantas would take some EK 777s (they still might). If they keep the EK configuration, that will be 10 abreast in Economy, so matching AirNZ. I guess Qantas would use the EK 77Ws on routes like BNE or MEL to LAX. I wonder if there is such a thing as a Qantas spec for the 777.


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 13565 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 90):
I suppose now that Qantas has dropped HKG-LHR that would help loads on the AirNZ flight?

HKG-LHR improved markedly once it was right-sized for frequency,the 789 and even the 77E refit will help.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 13527 times:

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 90):
I suppose now that Qantas has dropped HKG-LHR that would help loads on the AirNZ flight?

And the Northern Winter schedule has a later NZ35 HKG-LHR time of 0905/1445, close to the BA and CX morning departures. Last year NZ39 HKG-LHR was 0815/1335.

PA515


User currently offlineNZ1 From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 2268 posts, RR: 25
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13483 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 89):
ATr 72-600's are due towards the end of Oct, and into Nov,
didn't think there was an A320 showing up till around June next year, that was meant to be the one with the sharklet wings,
787-9's looking good for 2014,

Haven't got a clue on the 733's

and speculation that the last 2 744's will go around 2014/ early 2015 - any more 77W's orders in the pipeline ?

Maybe NZ1 could update us on this if and when he's not too busy.

New arrivals as follows:

ATR72-600 - Nov 2012 (MVA), Jan 2013 (MVB), Mar 2013 (MVC), Sep 2013 (MVD).
A320 Sharklet - Jun 2013 (OXA), Jul 2013 (OXB).

733 Exits as follows:

NGE - 30 Sep 2012
NGK - Apr 2013
SJC - Jun 2013
NGM - Oct 2013
SJB - Dec 2013

NZ1


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13438 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 92):
And the Northern Winter schedule has a later NZ35 HKG-LHR time of 0905/1445, close to the BA and CX morning departures.

Just checked and the morning 3 weekly BA HKG-LHR replacing the daily QF HKG-LHR has been dropped for the Northern Winter. The morning CX flight will be 0950/1500 and varies from 5 weekly to daily.

PA515


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1272 posts, RR: 1
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 13436 times:

A few bits of News:

There is currently a Boeing E-4 (747-200) of the USAF in Auckland. This is because US defense secretary Leon Panetta has come for a visit.

The first Boeing BBJ to get a VIP interior from Altitute Aerospace has arrived. Registration is N705JM.
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...omplete-first-bbj-interior-376536/

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6):
Chinese carriers along with 3rd nation airlines?

Purely speculative, but how about China Eastern? They have plenty of widebodies on order and already operate many services to Australia. Probably just a matter of time before they begin flying here IMO.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 8):
Ive seen figures from one well known European carbrand in Auckland showing that over 40% of the 100.000 NZ dollar plus category cars are bought by Chinese residents. In many cases its student on visas spending daddys cash

To be honest that doesn't surprise me at all.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 58):
A number of aircraft will also have new Air New Zealand livery applied during the same period.

   Another step in the wrong direction (IMO). To Air New Zealand's credit, the Panasonic eXlite looks fantastic. http://bit.ly/R4JNFx

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 90):
One of the rumours that has not happened so far - when QF and EK tied the knot some people guessed that Qantas would take some EK 777s (they still might)

I'm not sure about 77Ws (surely Emirates wants to keep those as they have so many on order), but they have six early 777-200ERs which are supposed to be getting replaced by 77Ws at some-point soon (according to various posts in these forums at least). Could they be of use to Qantas? They might be of benefit for long-haul routes that don't fill 747s but are beyond the range of the A330s. Obviously this is purely speculative.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 86):

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 85):
how long ago did it change that NZ would not be the 1st A320 operator with the new sharklet wings

I thought NZ was the first to order them , not necessarily the first to operate them.

Air New Zealand was the first airline to order sharklets for their A320s. Air Asia will be the first airline to operate CFM powered A320s with Sharklets, Qatar Airways will be the first airline to operate IAE powered A320s with Sharklets.

Quoting NZ1 (Reply 93):

As always, thanks for the great fleet infomation.  



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 13381 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting zkojq (Reply 95):
The first Boeing BBJ to get a VIP interior from Altitute Aerospace has arrived. Registration is N705JM.

Does anyone know if the BBJ is currently outside a hanger or inside?


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 13388 times:

NZ1934 AKL-EZE is now scheduled to depart at 1810 Sat 22 Sep.

www.aucklandairport.co.nz/FlightInfo...nationalArrivalsAndDepartures.aspx

PA515


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 13333 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Whats HA9981 arriving at 3am on Sunday? Another B763 for MX?

User currently offlinehaggis73 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2010, 115 posts, RR: 0
Reply 99, posted (2 years 1 month 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 13245 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 98):
Whats HA9981 arriving at 3am on Sunday? Another B763 for MX?

Yeah, sure is. N588HA left this morning back to HNL as HA9982.


User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 13033 times:

This is why I know number a good number of airline enthusiasts who do not value or read these forums any more.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
I'm not trying to belittle the profit, but with dominance like that, it's kind of the least you'd expect

Given businesses have been tightening their belts and surplus income has been at a minimal over the past few years to have a domestic airline operating profitably is a good outcome. I know of 3 Gold Elites personally who have not earnt enough to even be silver in the last year as their travel budgets and been slashed.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
Actually, it is the least I'd expect

Well your head is in the clouds. It's been a very hard few years and for any part of the business to be profitable is a good outcome. Fuel has gone up over 140% in the last 7 years. NZ has adopted itself to the market conditions and returned a positive outcome. Not many airlines in the world can say that.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
Especially after years of very average numbers, including the boom times of 2003-2007

And why is this? Would Domestic Express, GrabaSeat have anything to do with this? I think so.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
Meanwhile, NZ international ops continue to lose money

Yeah currently under review as we know after the Tasman has been turned around finally.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
where they actually have to face some competition

Yet if you ask Koruman (maybe even yourself in other posts) NZ has a monopoly on their international sectors so it should be the same as domestic?

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
Doesn't bode well for the company's resilience in the face of a new competitive threat.

Even though AN, QF (in 3 different format) Origin Pacific, DJ and now JQ are giving it a go? I'm pretty sure the competition argument it's been beaten to death and if all those airlines enter and exit (except JQ) then I think the the point is proven.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 13001 times:
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Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 49):
So yes, they made a profit, care of overwhelming dominance on domestic. Back patting all round. Headline numbers can be such fun.

Air NZ made a $71 million profit.

If, as you claim, the majority of that was on domestic - with a population of four million and and on which there is competition - then it has discovered a secret of revenue yield that is unknown to most airlines.

Alchemy, perhaps.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 12983 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 97):
NZ1934 AKL-EZE is now scheduled to depart at 1810 Sat 22 Sep

As I thought they would, they took a far more northerly route than LA/AR, using IPC has the alternate, rather than the usual AR alternates of MDZ,BRC,USH,COR which are generally reached from further south...


User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 12826 times:

Quoting ZKOJH (Reply 89):
Quoting NZ1 (Reply 93):

Thanks for the info. If I remember correctly, when NZ ordered the 320, the announcement said the first sharklet 320 would be delivered in Dec 2012. Somehow it has been deferred to Jun 2013 now.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 91):
HKG-LHR improved markedly once it was right-sized for frequency,the 789 and even the 77E refit will help.

Any guesses which of the 772/789 would be the more appropriate type to operate AKL-HKG-LHR?


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2737 posts, RR: 4
Reply 104, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12714 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
This is why I know number a good number of airline enthusiasts who do not value or read these forums any more.

Someone, hand me a hanky. Seriously if it's so painful, why do you bother? I enjoy most of the conversation here - hence my participation. Hell I've even paused from Oktoberfest to have a look-see here (nerd alert)! And I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong - eg. I was pretty critical of the OneSmart initiative, but credit where it's due, I think it's great now that I've experienced it. Give... take... right...wrong. It's called a discussion. You don't have to preamble every post with a snarky remark. Like I did... with the hanky.

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
Given businesses have been tightening their belts and surplus income has been at a minimal over the past few years

So why not increase economy capacity? This is a perennial "problem", but has it crossed your mind that maybe companies/corporate contracts have simply shifted to other providers?

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
It's been a very hard few years and for any part of the business to be profitable is a good outcome.

It's ALWAYS a hard few years, no matter what. That's the airline industry. It's essentially the status quo. Even when economies are good there's something the airlines find is dragging them back, usually fuel, which rises in price as demand picks up from economic expansion. Oh wait...

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
Fuel has gone up over 140% in the last 7 years.

Another perennial and in fact, so predictable that you'd think an aggressive focus on costs would be, I dunno, a key focus. But you're right, palatial innercity office HQs are pretty important. Uniform changes, tinkering with liveries, excessive number of employees, extremely low density PE, bizarre alienation of high value frequent flyers etc etc.

Also, is that inflation adjusted? Accounts for currency fluctuations, given fuel is purchase din US Dollars? And what if we compared now to 6 years ago, or eight? Why is seven so important? Oil dropped to USD40 per barrel in the aftermath of the GFC and eventually rose to USD110 or so. Depending on your start point, your argument for fuel prices is going to be very different. All you can really say is that its volatile and you better have a damn good hedging policy. And by god focus on costs.

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
I know of 3 Gold Elites personally who have not earnt enough to even be silver in the last year as their travel budgets and been slashed.

And I know of 2 who gave up on NZ altogether. Did you consider the possibility that it may be because NZ's earning rates and rewards have deteriorated so much that Gold Elites (the sweethearts) are losing out too?

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
Yet if you ask Koruman (maybe even yourself in other posts)

Huh? Off the top of my head NZ is the sole operator on the following international routes: AKL-LAX, SFO, YYV, HNL (for now), DPS, NRT (ANA included but partners rather than competitors), KIX, PVG. Any others? Outside of LHR and HKG, they don't face a whole lot of competition. HNL will be an interesting.

The point was that where NZ does face competition, it often struggles.

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 100):
Even though AN, QF (in 3 different format) Origin Pacific, DJ and now JQ are giving it a go? I'm pretty sure the competition argument it's been beaten to death and if all those airlines enter and exit (except JQ) then I think the the point is proven.

Weird way to make a list, given QF and JQ are effectively the same effort (making the same operational mistakes, I might add, relying on a fleet that works across the network rather than having a dedicated domestic fleet, screwing up reliability all too often, but I digress!).

What point are trying to prove?

Quoting mariner (Reply 101):
If, as you claim, the majority of that was on domestic - with a population of four million and and on which there is competition - then it has discovered a secret of revenue yield that is unknown to most airlines.

It's been a regular feature of NZ's shareholder meetings since the bailout - domestic saves the day. Long haul is losing, short haul international (which others rightly pointed out I wrongly lumped into "international") is either breaking even or offering slight profits, and domestic... rides to the rescue. It's not a secret. It's what happens when you control 80% of a market.

Anyway, the steiny things await! Oh and thanks NZ1 for the delivery dates for the ATRs. I'll have a looksee when I get back to Toulouse and see if I can score a sneaky pic.


User currently offlineZkpilot From New Zealand, joined Mar 2006, 4840 posts, RR: 9
Reply 105, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12708 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 103):
Any guesses which of the 772/789 would be the more appropriate type to operate AKL-HKG-LHR?

I would say that the 77E would be the more likely choice for 3 reasons...
1: 777 crews in LHR (both pilots and cabin crew),
2: 777 parts/mx in LHR
3: the 789 is better suited to longer thinner markets....ie opening up new destinations from New Zealand.



56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 106, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 12693 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
It's what happens when you control 80% of a market.

I know airlines in other countries which own 100% of particular markets, but who are not, proportionately, making that kind of money.

Within my experience, share does not equate to profit. I know of airlines whose profits have gone down - and even become losses - as their share has risen

But I won't argue. Costs - fuel (dramatically), airport charges - have gone up and fares have gone down. So If what you say is true, then it suggests that - at least domestically - Air NZ is an astonishingly well run airline.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-22 16:46:46]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesunrisevalley From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 5055 posts, RR: 5
Reply 107, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12676 times:

Quoting cchan (Reply 103):
Any guesses which of the 772/789 would be the more appropriate type to operate AKL-HKG-LHR?

I think the seat layouts will have a large bearing on the outcome.We don't know what the revision of the 77E will mean and weather the 789 is going to be nearer 250 or nearer 300 seats. From Rob's comments , the 77E at ~300sets is too much 7x weekly but that 5x or a 30% reduction is a better match to demand. So 7x with a 285 seat 789 might work . It is interesting to note that the load factors on the AKL/Asia/LHR are about 10% less than AKL/USA/LHR. Now HKG-LHR may not necessarily be the drag. A useful piece of data is that the fuel burn/seat for a 6000nm sector for a 301 seat 77E is ~ 280kg, for a 365 seat 77w, 260kg and a 285- seat 789 ~220kg. Based on the present spot price of fuel at ~$US1100/mt this translates into $308, $286 and $242 respectively


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 108, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 12643 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 106):
I know airlines in other countries which own 100% of particular markets, but who are not, proportionately, making that kind of money.

But I won't argue. Costs - fuel (dramatically), airport charges - have gone up and fares have gone down. So If what you say is true, then it suggests that - at least domestically - Air NZ is an astonishingly well run airline.

Have you considered the possibility that in another country, you are probably not just competing with airlines but also high speed trains? New Zealand's small population and the lack of other public transportation give NZ a natural advantage. So perhaps however the domestic operations are run, it will always make money as people have no other practical choice.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 109, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 12636 times:
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Quoting xiaotung (Reply 108):
Have you considered the possibility that in another country, you are probably not just competing with airlines but also high speed trains?

Yes, I've considered that. Trains provide very little genuine competition in the US or Australia - or quite a lot of Asia and Africa - and I wasn't thinking of European airlines, I don't really study them.

If the claim is true, it means that domestic made even more money than the reported profit because it had to cover international losses as well - which is when my eyebrows go up.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-22 18:27:37]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7108 posts, RR: 12
Reply 110, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days ago) and read 12559 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 108):
Have you considered the possibility that in another country, you are probably not just competing with airlines but also high speed trains? New Zealand's small population and the lack of other public transportation give NZ a natural advantage. So perhaps however the domestic operations are run, it will always make money as people have no other practical choice.

Hit the nail on the head there I think. NZ's transportation infrastructure is not up to par and aviation is pretty much the only way to link the country efficiently. Large country relative to it's small population, can't expect trains and things to start popping up.


User currently offlineaerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2737 posts, RR: 4
Reply 111, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 12309 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 106):
So If what you say is true, then it suggests that - at least domestically - Air NZ is an astonishingly well run airline.

Well run, sure, on domestic. But "astonishingly"? Again, with 80% marketshare and monopoly on regional routes, I'm not astonished.

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
Yes, I've considered that. Trains provide very little genuine competition in the US or Australia - or quite a lot of Asia and Africa - and I wasn't thinking of European airlines, I don't really study them.

And in Australia, Qantas creams it off 65% domestic marketshare - that alone was hugely profitable for them. Similar situation in New Zealand.

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
If the claim is true, it means that domestic made even more money than the reported profit because it had to cover international losses as well - which is when my eyebrows go up.

Just turn up to the annual shareholder's meeting. I don't quite understand the difficulty in comprehending how an airline with monopoly regional routes and significant majority share on trunk routes is able to make outsized profits on those routes. Is it perhaps because it doesn't fit with the meme of "increasing fuel costs" as a coverall explanation for ever-declining performance? Fuel, which if paid in US Dollars, should have been substantially buttressed by the rising NZ Dollar.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 112, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12210 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 111):
Well run, sure, on domestic. But "astonishingly"? Again, with 80% marketshare and monopoly on regional routes, I'm not astonished.

The main routes are not monopoly and there is a considerable difference between the Qantas domestic fleet and the Beech 1900 - not to mention population size.

I've been the shareholders meeting and I have heard that domestic does extremely well - saved our butts, perhaps - but I haven't heard it said to the level you are suggesting.

In your glum scenario, before they could arrive at the $70 million figure domestic would also have had to cover all of international's supposed losses.

And that's when I raise my eyebrows. It is too much of a generalisation for me.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-23 11:47:44]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 113, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 12047 times:

Domestic is not a monopoly - people can and do drive themselves. This is the competition of regional routes. Do I drive three hours from a small city, or do I pay a lot for a 45 minute flight? Some of the people on the flight may be connecting to another flight, but regional flying is expensive. Last year some people I know from Rotorua who were going to Nelson drove up to Auckland for a cheaper fare to Nelson from the bigger market. A pity, if AirNZ did fares with just a flag fall, and then cents per km, it should cost the same to fly from Rotorua as it does from AKL. When I travel to Nelson from DUD it costs far more than travelling to WLG, which is the same distance. I could drive this distance - two five hour drives through CHC, but I think regional aviation could do better.

User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 114, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 11853 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 112):
I've been the shareholders meeting and I have heard that domestic does extremely well - saved our butts, perhaps - but I haven't heard it said to the level you are suggesting.

Yes exactly. Actually the latest meeting I went to was more focused on the Transtasman/South Pacific growth and profits than domestic. Furthermore as a shareholder, to be moaning on about monopolies and the like is just cutting off your own nose to spite your face when they are maintaining share value and paying (small) dividends still, when competitors over the same time frame have bled share prices all over the market floor. 1.11 a share is up on where it was in 2009 vs QF which is about 1.24 and has plummeted from 2.40-2.60 in the same time...


User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 115, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 11785 times:

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
Someone, hand me a hanky. Seriously if it's so painful, why do you bother?

I read the majority of other "threads" on these forums. For NZ I like many people use flyertalk more frequently as the level of conversation is better.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
So why not increase economy capacity? This is a perennial "problem", but has it crossed your mind that maybe companies/corporate contracts have simply shifted to other providers?

Hmmm are we still talking Domestic because I thought NZ had a "monopoly" ? If we're talking JQ I would very much doubt many have gone to JQ.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
It's ALWAYS a hard few years, no matter what. That's the airline industry. It's essentially the status quo. Even when economies are good there's something the airlines find is dragging them back, usually fuel, which rises in price as demand picks up from economic expansion. Oh wait...

So I guess the number of airlines reporting losses including QF and those who have gone under is for "other reasons" and not due to factors like this?

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
Another perennial and in fact, so predictable that you'd think an aggressive focus on costs would be, I dunno, a key focus. But you're right, palatial innercity office HQs are pretty important. Uniform changes, tinkering with liveries, excessive number of employees, extremely low density PE, bizarre alienation of high value frequent flyers etc etc.

So fuel has gone up that much but fares 6.7% if I recall correctly. I wonder how NZ can still return a profit? hmmm lady luck huh.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
And I know of 2 who gave up on NZ altogether. Did you consider the possibility that it may be because NZ's earning rates and rewards have deteriorated so much that Gold Elites (the sweethearts) are losing out too?

Sure some would. Some left after NZ removed J class on the Tasman. Turns our that's been a good move.

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
The point was that where NZ does face competition, it often struggles.

Where NZ faces competition is competes with hub airlines CX, SQ for example. Any end of line carrier faces these issues.

My point proved marvellously.


User currently offlineNZ107 From New Zealand, joined Jul 2005, 6436 posts, RR: 38
Reply 116, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 11543 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 115):
For NZ I like many people use flyertalk more frequently as the level of conversation is better.

There is no conversation anymore seeing NZ watered down the FF programme so much that everyone left...



It's all about the destination AND the journey.
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 117, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 11536 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 115):
Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 104):
And I know of 2 who gave up on NZ altogether. Did you consider the possibility that it may be because NZ's earning rates and rewards have deteriorated so much that Gold Elites (the sweethearts) are losing out too?

Sure some would. Some left after NZ removed J class on the Tasman. Turns our that's been a good move.

That comments strikes me as being bit arragant considering your an NZ staff member. How was loosing some of your best customers a good move when they are your bread and butter earners? Was it because they only used J class, only wanted to sit in J class (money money money) and because NZ had a J class they couldn't sell all the seats? If NZ couldn't sell all the J seats then why not reduce J class seating to 2 or 4 seats? Or is it because NZ now has more customers flying with them at the expense of (say) JQ, QF etc?


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 118, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 11505 times:

Does anyone know if/how you can select a different fare class on the NZ website? The only fares it is displaying for YVR-AKL are S class, which does not accrue points on any partner airline FF plan (e.g. AC Aeroplan). Or do I have to make the booking through an NZ agent?


Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinecchan From New Zealand, joined May 2003, 1762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 119, posted (2 years 1 month 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11475 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 118):
Does anyone know if/how you can select a different fare class on the NZ website?

I tried to do that but no luck, it seems the site would only give me the lowest available booking class.


User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 120, posted (2 years 1 month 17 hours ago) and read 11137 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 102):
Quoting PA515 (Reply 97):
NZ1934 AKL-EZE is now scheduled to depart at 1810 Sat 22 Sep

As I thought they would, they took a far more northerly route than LA/AR, using IPC has the alternate, rather than the usual AR alternates of MDZ,BRC,USH,COR which are generally reached from further south...

Do you expect a similar routing for the return flight?

PA515


User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 121, posted (2 years 1 month 16 hours ago) and read 11062 times:

Quoting PA515 (Reply 120):
Do you expect a similar routing for the return flight?

Yes, this keeps it within EDTO 240 requirements and under 6500nm...


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 122, posted (2 years 1 month 12 hours ago) and read 10998 times:

A couple of suggestions for improving NZ's on-line booking:

1. Display / allow selection of different fare classes, so that pax can select the class with the restrictions that best match their needs.

2. Allow pax to see available seats before purchasing a ticket. If, for example, the only available Y seats on YVR-AKL are middle seats at the back, I may choose to travel on a different date or via SFO/LAX.

There's a good model here: http://www.aircanada.com/en/home.html



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinePA515 From New Zealand, joined Nov 2007, 890 posts, RR: 0
Reply 123, posted (2 years 1 month 11 hours ago) and read 10989 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 121):
Yes, this keeps it within EDTO 240 requirements and under 6500nm...

That makes sense. EDTO 240 was achieved in Dec 2011 and under the NZCAA rules EDTO 330 isn't possible until 12 months later.

Strangely Boeing's 12 Dec, 2011 Media statement and the Air NZ Press Release about the first EDTO 240 flight have been deleted from their websites.

PA515


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 124, posted (2 years 1 month 10 hours ago) and read 10981 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 122):

I remember this being discussed ages ago and IIRC the reasons why pax can't see what spare seats are still open is because NZ uses an older booking system?


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 125, posted (2 years 1 month 7 hours ago) and read 10907 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 124):

OK, but we're 12 years into the 21st century.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlinealangirvan From New Zealand, joined Nov 2000, 2106 posts, RR: 1
Reply 126, posted (2 years 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 10387 times:

Increase seats between Australia and Christchurch? They could persuade Emirates to turn DXB-BKK-SYD-CHC into an A380 flight - that will happen eventually if they have an A380 ready gate. EK has reached the limits of its Trans Tasman flights, but now that JQ has stopped flying CHC-BNE, perhaps Qantas would have no objection to EK adding this sector iwth QF code sharing on it.

User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12218 posts, RR: 18
Reply 127, posted (2 years 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 10242 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting alangirvan (Reply 126):

I thought CHC was New Zealand's first A380 ready airport?


User currently offlineLoveNZ From New Zealand, joined Jul 2012, 6 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 10047 times:

Just been reading today's Tabs on Travel which has some interesting comments on the future of Air New Zealand (sorry, don't know how to share the source). There was a comment about NZ's long-haul future and speculation as to whether they would pull a QF and partner up closer to Etihad and Virgin Australia, and whether they might pull out of London also for this reason. This analysts (no name provided) also suggests NZ will become a regional carrier in the future, I'm gathering he/she means a Pacific Rim focussed carrier.

Another interesting comment was that AKL could become an airport that would connect China with South America (I think this already happens with CX and LA in some ways) if NZ can secure a good Chinese airline partner. I guess this would be based on NZ launching South America at some point?

Anyway, interesting points to discuss further perhaps?


User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 9964 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 117):
That comments strikes me as being bit arragant considering your an NZ staff member

Am I still a staff member?

Quoting 777ER (Reply 117):
How was loosing some of your best customers a good move when they are your bread and butter earners?

Because you can't please them all and if you're not operating as an airline any more you wont please any! the Tasman is now preforming and that is a good thing. Likewise when they pulled out of SIN some got annoyed but at the end of the day the airline needs to make money.

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 116):
There is no conversation anymore seeing NZ watered down the FF programme so much that everyone left...

Or they changed how the program is to be run. Going against the grain and goes against the mentality of "free" travel. The interesting part is membership numbers are up (free memberships help that of course) but the number of Premium Members has increased by 30% in the last 3 years.

Quoting LoveNZ (Reply 128):
Just been reading today's Tabs on Travel which has some interesting comments on the future of Air New Zealand (sorry, don't know how to share the source). There was a comment about NZ's long-haul future and speculation as to whether they would pull a QF and partner up closer to Etihad and Virgin Australia, and whether they might pull out of London also for this reason. This analysts (no name provided) also suggests NZ will become a regional carrier in the future, I'm gathering he/she means a Pacific Rim focussed carrier.

This has been made public by NZ a number of times.

Quoting LoveNZ (Reply 128):
Another interesting comment was that AKL could become an airport that would connect China with South America (I think this already happens with CX and LA in some ways) if NZ can secure a good Chinese airline partner. I guess this would be based on NZ launching South America at some point?

If NZ is smart I believe they will capitalise on this.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 9900 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 129):
Or they changed how the program is to be run. Going against the grain and goes against the mentality of "free" travel. The interesting part is membership numbers are up (free memberships help that of course) but the number of Premium Members has increased by 30% in the last 3 years.

Was it about 3-4 years ago when NZ started to allow all Smart Saver fares to earn at least Status Points? And not long ago they also started to allow credit card spend to earn Status Points. So I can't really see the 30% increase of Premium Members an indication of the successfulness of Airpoints.

[Edited 2012-09-28 00:57:53]

User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 131, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9759 times:

It seems that apart from VA , NZ are not happy with the new QF-EK deal! HAHA

''Virgin Australia and its international alliance partners have asked the competition regulator to withhold interim authorisation for the Qantas-Emirates tie-up, arguing the two would have a massive combined market share and that they had failed to demonstrate how consumers would benefit.

In separate submissions to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, Virgin, Singapore Airlines and Air New Zealand said interim authorisation was not appropriate,

''Air New Zealand said that once commercially sensitive information has been shared, it was impossible to reverse that transfer of knowledge.

"It is crucial that consumers are not misled," Air NZ said.''

taken from http://www.cargonewsasia.com/



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 132, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 9751 times:

''Jetstar staff get a makeover''

Qantas' low-cost subsidiary, Jetstar has announced a makeover for its staff, unveiling new uniforms for employees working in New Zealand, Australia, Vietnam, Singapore and Japan.

Replacing the three different uniforms across the network, the new outfit was designed in consultation with team members to reflect Jestar’s growing Pan-Asian network.

http://www.etravelblackboardasia.com/article/86698



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9668 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 130):
Was it about 3-4 years ago when NZ started to allow all Smart Saver fares to earn at least Status Points? And not long ago they also started to allow credit card spend to earn Status Points. So I can't really see the 30% increase of Premium Members an indication of the successfulness of Airpoints.

You can't become a GE on your credit card and you would need to do a LOT of flying on Domestic Smart Savers to be GE on them. I think that argument is weak.


User currently offlineKaiarahi From Canada, joined Jul 2009, 3035 posts, RR: 28
Reply 134, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 9658 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 129):
Am I still a staff member?

You've always claimed you work for NZ and have access to inside information. If your status has changed, please enlighten us.



Empty vessels make the most noise.
User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9536 times:

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 134):
You've always claimed you work for NZ and have access to inside information. If your status has changed, please enlighten us.

I shouldn't need to explain myself, this has always been my personal opinion. I know a lot of people within NZ regardless if I still work there still or not.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9489 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 133):
You can't become a GE on your credit card and you would need to do a LOT of flying on Domestic Smart Savers to be GE on them. I think that argument is weak.

I assume when you say premium members you also include Gold or even Silver. I know flying purely domestically is hard but it's not that hard if you fly trans-Tasman. You need 3 one way Smart Saver fares a month across the ditch to achieve Gold. That amount of flying and distance are equivalent to achieving AC*G which is one of the easiest. So Smart Saver fares from earning nothing to becoming one of the easiest to earn status, I would say the 30% increase was not that significant.

Most of NZ's fares do not qualify to earn in another programme which leaves Airpoints the only choice. That's very artificial and I don't think the model is sustainable, particularly when there is increasing competition.


User currently offlineBlackLabel From New Zealand, joined Jan 2008, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 137, posted (2 years 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9475 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 133):
You can't become a GE on your credit card and you would need to do a LOT of flying on Domestic Smart Savers to be GE on them. I think that argument is weak.

I used to make Gold solely from domestic flying. This was even before the earning of status points on smart savers (which pushed me to fly QF trans tasman). Since you can earn 50% of the status points required for any tier via credit card, it easily halves the requirements for earning that status.

It doesn't surprise me that the premium members according to that, although I'd equally suspect to see them in decline over the next few years -- I am coasting on banked Gold Elite years now and will for a while yet. The membership number increase is meaningless.


User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 9325 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 136):
I assume when you say premium members you also include Gold or even Silver

Well I meant just GE but Silver and Gold numbers are up also I believe. I can't be 100% sure on that without checking with my friend though.

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 137):
I used to make Gold solely from domestic flying.

Brilliant and you will not be the only one I'm sure, this is still not the reason there has been a massive increase in Premium members over the past few years.


User currently offlineBlackLabel From New Zealand, joined Jan 2008, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 139, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9080 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 138):
Brilliant and you will not be the only one I'm sure, this is still not the reason there has been a massive increase in Premium members over the past few years.

Well it certainly isn't because NZ's fare offerings and Airpoints represent value for money.

I would wager that a substantial amount of increase in premium members comes from the credit card derived status points and probably due to people holding premium status longer due to banked gold elite years.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 140, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9050 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 139):
Well it certainly isn't because NZ's fare offerings and Airpoints represent value for money.

It is in my case.

I've been won over by Air NZ, largely because of Works Deluxe fares.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineNZ6 From New Zealand, joined Jan 2010, 248 posts, RR: 0
Reply 141, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 9049 times:

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 139):
Well it certainly isn't because NZ's fare offerings and Airpoints represent value for money.

You're looking at this the wrong way, not everyone reads the "fine print" of the loyalty programme before deciding their airline of preference. Some fly NZ because of the service, products, schedules, etc etc

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 139):
I would wager that a substantial amount of increase in premium members comes from the credit card derived status points and probably due to people holding premium status longer due to banked gold elite years.

So you think the substantial increase has come from credit cards which was my original point? Do you always give your money away. I'll happily take it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 140):
It is in my case.

I've been won over by Air NZ, largely because of Works Deluxe fares.

mariner

There you go.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8906 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 140):
I've been won over by Air NZ, largely because of Works Deluxe fares.

I don't quite understand this statement. If you are a premium customer, you will get all the perks a Works Deluxe fare offers anyway. So you pay all that amount of money just for an empty seat next to you? You are probably not a premium customer as you don't fly very frequently then your argument is quite irrelavent in this case.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 8897 times:

Quoting BlackLabel (Reply 139):
I would wager that a substantial amount of increase in premium members comes from the credit card derived status points and probably due to people holding premium status longer due to banked gold elite years.

I note that you don't need to fly NZ to bank Gold Elite years. While you need 810 Airpoints Dollars earned on NZ flights to qualify for Gold Elite, you will find that to bank a further year, all status points from credit cards and Star Alliance flights count. So that would add to your argument.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 144, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8861 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 142):
You are probably not a premium customer as you don't fly very frequently then your argument is quite irrelavent in this case.


How can you know how often I fly or what my status (with any of several airlines) is?

I don't feel the need to broadcast every flight I make on this board, only when something interesting happens, such as my recent experience with Air NZ's Works Deluxe, which I enjoyed and was great value for money - and a win for Air NZ.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-29 18:11:08]


aeternum nauta
User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 145, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 8831 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 144):
How can you know how often I fly or what my status (with any of several airlines) is?

It's quite simple. It you had status, you would not buy Works Deluxe fares, because you would get anything apart from an empty seat next to you with your status anyway. Of course I don't know how often you fly but you gave yourself away. The fact that you say Works Deluxe was great value for money can only say you have no status.


User currently offlineZKOJH From China, joined Sep 2004, 1717 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8815 times:

What has happened to the big fan fare of the 'New US route' from NZ? when could we hear anything solid.

I was looking at the ZQN site the other day, and was thinking with all this extra capacity it is seeing could they not introduce some new routes there? like services to - ROT, NAP AND maybe across the ditch to Hobart?



CZ 787 to AKL can't wait.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 147, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8792 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 145):
It's quite simple. It you had status, you would not buy Works Deluxe fares, because you would get anything apart from an empty seat next to you with your status anyway. Of course I don't know how often you fly but you gave yourself away. The fact that you say Works Deluxe was great value for money can only say you have no status.

I wanted to try out Works deluxe. I wanted to make a comparison with Virgin's Premium Economy.

Do you never do that - or do you just jump to conclusions?

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8799 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 145):
It's quite simple. It you had status, you would not buy Works Deluxe fares, because you would get anything apart from an empty seat next to you with your status anyway. Of course I don't know how often you fly but you gave yourself away. The fact that you say Works Deluxe was great value for money can only say you have no status.

What an arrogant little upstart you are coming across as. Value perception means different things to different people.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1270 posts, RR: 6
Reply 149, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 8772 times:

Ah, needed to be back in Asia for works. Schoolholiday just started to hard to gets eats on my usual airlines. I booked jetstar to Singapore.
I know but I have taken them before and normally its ok. you get what you pay for and all that. But it was such a big save that I thought it was worth it. besides mooncake festival in Singapore tonight so I saw a few sherberts coming my way.

However the plane has gone tech. rescheduled tomorrow (great I need a doctor certificate for that, work dont accept such events).
Anyone know whats wrong with it (we passngers werent given any info, just told enginering says you will depart tomorrow at 09)

Information was absymal, nothing said, no PA announcements nothing. Would think they could handle the basic communication. Not much you need in these instances but this wa shandled pretty unproffesionally.
Well I guess they dont pay their staff here to much.
Sad part was the kiwi staff, lazy people, buggered off and left a polite little Asian girl to handle 250 passenegrs wondering what was happening. Extremely unprofessional and very unfair.
At least she did the best she could, I felt truly sorry for her being put there by lazy colleagues not wanting to deal with a situation.

To be honest what Jetstar arranged was all you could expect. Hotel, meals, shuttle bus all sorted. More than i expected I thought lowcost wow this means trouble but I was wrong.
Only the communication failed the rest they must have had processes set up and ready to handle.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1272 posts, RR: 1
Reply 150, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8766 times:

Those who have recently been looking at 3new's website might have noted the interesting choice of file photo from the following article. Because who doesn't go heli-hunting in a russian attack-helicopter?
http://www.3news.co.nz/Chopper-firm-.../423/articleID/270482/Default.aspx

For those interested in the aircraft side of things, it seems that one of Air New Zealand's old 747-200s has finally been scrapped. Some of the comments indicate that it was the first non-russian/soviet aircraft to be scrapped in Moscow. VP-BQA was originally delivered to Air New Zealand in June 1981, registered ZK-NZW. It was Air New Zealand's second 747.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7087/7067445433_aed9bf2689_c.jpg
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7192/6980124087_89ca60f8b7_c.jpg



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 151, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8778 times:

Quoting Mr AirNZ (Reply 148):
What an arrogant little upstart you are coming across as. Value perception means different things to different people.

It has nothing to do with arrogance. I simply questioned that paying nearly $150 extra over Works to just get a neighbour free guarantee was good value.

Quoting mariner (Reply 147):
I wanted to try out Works deluxe. I wanted to make a comparison with Virgin's Premium Economy.

Do you never do that - or do you just jump to conclusions?

But why? There is no difference from buying Works except an empty seat next to you. I would try anything with significant differences but not just an empty seat next to you. So sorry I just don't see why anyone with status would do that.

Virgin's premium economy is a flawed product and they have replaced it with Business Class domestically. They haven't touched trans-Tasman routes probably due to the agreement with NZ.

[Edited 2012-09-29 20:14:02]

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 152, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8785 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 151):
But why? There is no difference from buying Works except an empty seat next to you. I would try anything with significant differences but not just an empty seat next to you. So sorry I just don't see why anyone with status would do that.

We all do it differently.

I once flew MEL-LAX - up the front - going with Air Nauru via BNE, NOU, INU, to GUM and then Continental to HNL and LAX. I gave myself a few days in Guam, for the heck of it.

It wasn't a great airline experience, but it was a great travel experience.

I'm planning a trip to Melbourne next month and I may go via SYD with LAN. Why? I've lived in Hispanic countries, I enjoy the culture and I speak a little of the language. I could use a Spanish fix.

In this specific case, as I told you, I wanted to compare Works deluxe with Virgin's premium economy. A small part of it, I admit, was because of Koruman's comments here. I had the devil in me.

I like flying, especially to odd-ball places in odd-ball ways and I don't give a crap abut "status" - which I have - I give my miles/points away to charity.

Eccentric? Mayhap. Outside your experience? Why should I care?

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-29 20:43:29]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7271 posts, RR: 13
Reply 153, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8786 times:

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 151):
So sorry I just don't see why anyone with status would do that.

Due to the increasing numbers of Elites (and yes I know the exact number) there are fewer and fewer 'perks' extended to them onboard. On certain flights over half the flight can hold *E & *G status, not all of them will be offered noise cancelling headsets, newspapers, Water bottles, extra luggage allowance etc that DLS customers get. To me, it guarantees a aisle seat or window seat, guarantees a spare seat, allows you access to the best seats on the plane over a Gold. You would be surprised I think by how many of those that are 'entitled' DO still pay for DLS - especially those who travel with lots of equipment or those travelling for conferences.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 154, posted (2 years 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 8767 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 152):
I like flying, especially to odd-ball places in odd-ball ways and I don't give a crap abut "status" - which I have - I give my miles/points away to charity.

Eccentric? I hope so. Outside your experience? Why should I care?

Then you are not a typical frequent flyer, are you? And your perception of value is apparently different from most regular flyers. You book Works Deluxe for the heck of it not for its value.

I am curious about your comparison with DJ. DJ Premium Economy at least is a standalone class. When you book NZ's Works Deluxe, it doesn't change your fare conditions. You would find sometimes your Works Deluxe fares are even non-refundable. At least DJ Premium Economy has its own fare conditions.


User currently onlinexiaotung From New Zealand, joined Jan 2006, 853 posts, RR: 0
Reply 155, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8750 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 153):
On certain flights over half the flight can hold *E & *G status, not all of them will be offered noise cancelling headsets, newspapers, Water bottles, extra luggage allowance etc that DLS customers get.

If it's true that people see value in newspapers ($2), water bottles ($5 at best), etc, I admit I am surprised.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 156, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8757 times:
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Quoting xiaotung (Reply 154):
Then you are not a typical frequent flyer, are you? And your perception of value is apparently different from most regular flyers.

I don't know what your "typical frequent flyer" is, but I am almost ordinary compared with some of my chums.

I have one mate, retired, not rich but not short of a quid, who flies to London once a year for three months and spends the other nine months planning each trip. He only flies first class and his choice is based on the goodies each airline offers him. His negotiations with the airlines are quite extensive and comparative - fun, for him, like haggling in a Middle Eastern bazaar.

He doesn't bother with "status" either because every airline he flies with makes him a CIP.

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 154):
You book Works Deluxe for the heck of it not for its value.

Huh? I booked Works De Luxe precisely to test its value.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-29 21:03:40]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 157, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8763 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 152):
A small part of it, I admit, was because of Koruman's comments here

I'm sure that I'm going to regret asking, but which of my comments?

Anyway, while a few recent posts in this thread are sailing a bit close to the wind - this is a discussion forum, not a fight club - I would like to identify a key strategic shift to which both sides are referring.

Traditionally, loyalty programs for airlines and hotel chains have been targeted primarily at a small number of customers who frequently buy the most expensive and high-yielding products. Starwood hotels, for example, stated several months ago that 2% of their customers generate 30% of their profits. As a result, they roll out ever more elaborate perks for their highest-yielding guests - in the last eighteen months I have started to receive 10 pre-confirmed suite upgrades per year, a personal ambassador as booking agent-cum-concierge and if I reach the next level of loyalty I get 24 hour check-in rights and the right to stay 24 hours from whatever time I arrived.

This kind of model, of course, is the basis of the universal - apart from NZ - model of "Fly To Earn".

In this model, rightly or wrongly, the airline's loyalty program and product line-up would be targeted more at repeat high-yield purchasers like Xiaotung, Kaiarahi or myself, and less at people like Mariner who like to shop around and do not want to earn loyalty perks or to be monogamous towards one airline.

But Air NZ has put its eggs in a different basket. As John Macilree commented here before anyone else noticed - myself included - the airline has focused almost entirely on monopoly and to a lesser extent duopoly long-haul routes. It offers premium passengers a good product at a monopoly-sized price, but it has removed virtually every perk that its highest-level frequent flyers valued.

And the only perk it has added - banked elite years - as a result comes at virtually no cost (in that there are no actual rewards for that loyalty which carry a cost to the airline) but has the incidental effect of camouflaging any flight of elite frequent flyers from the program. There is no way in which my shift of loyalty to Virgin, Hawaiian and Qantas is going to be evident to shareholders or anyone else putting a fine-tooth comb through the Airpoints numbers, because I'm already guaranteed elite status until 2020 even if I don't set foot on an Air NZ aircraft.

"Earn to Fly" is a fascinating model, because it essentially is a magnet to direct loyalty to retail partners rather than any sort of attempt to encourage loyal passengers to buy the airline's most expensive tickets.

Worse still, the share buy-back which the airline announced this week makes me suspect that there has been a deliberate campaign to short-sell the airline's shares, while the combination of the improved short-haul financial performance (which I believe to be entirely attributable to making the competitor Virgin into a partner) combined with the total number of Airpoints members plus the steady Gold Elite numbers (because "Banking Years" means that former loyal frequent flyers are still declared and claimed to be active high-yield customers) mean that the government's 73% stake will be spun off in the near future.

I know that my enhanced elite loyalty perks from two hotel chains are because they each want to keep my custom. But the only additional thing I've got out of Air NZ this last five years is banked Gold Elite years, while they dilute everything else. So as I wrote, I suspect that that was a low-cost way of them being able to keep counting former high-yield customers as if they were current.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 158, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8754 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 157):
Quoting mariner (Reply 152):
A small part of it, I admit, was because of Koruman's comments here

I'm sure that I'm going to regret asking, but which of my comments?

No need to "regret" anything - or I don't think so.

You had made a comment that Works De Luxe should be sold as Premium Economy, Since I had just flown Virgin's PE, that was in my mind when I booked with Air NZ.

Having tried it, my answer is that WDL shouldn't be sold as PE, but I seriously doubt there's any way I'll persuade you.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekoruman From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 159, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 158):
You had made a comment that Works De Luxe should be sold as Premium Economy, Since I had just flown Virgin's PE, that was in my mind when I booked with Air NZ.

Having tried it, my answer is that WDL shouldn't be sold as PE, but I seriously doubt there's any way I'll persuade you

OK, I see. Well I don't have strong views on that matter, although I think there should be an Airpoints / Status premium for buying a dearer fare type.

I've met several of Air NZ's senior executives and I find them to be likeable and intelligent. I disagree with them, but who is to say that they aren't right while I'm wrong?

What disappoints me is that I think that most - not all - of my suggestions this last five years would have been less radical than theirs and would have worked without sending large numbers of elites into the arms of their competitors.

To recap, they were:

1) 777-200ER +/- 777-200LR +/- 777-300ER services jointly branded and marketed with Virgin Australia from BNE/MEL/SYD to LAX/SFO/YVR/HNL and possibly IAH or ORD.

2) Use of an Asian or Middle-Eastern Koruhub, possibly in partnership with a local carrier and certainly Virgin Australia, to provide one-stop services from AKL/WLG/CHC/BNE/MEL/SYD/ADL/PER across Europe, Asia and Africa.

The disappointing thing for me is that John Borghetti has replaced Brett Godfrey at Virgin Australia and created precisely the network which I was arguing that Air NZ could use its low cost-base and right-size purchase options (777-200ER/LR) for.

I might be wrong about Airpoints. I might even be wrong about Seats To Suit. But I was right about partnerships to build a 1-stop network to the west and about partnering with Virgin from Australia to the USA.

And the airline can talk about its little profit, but if it had used its traffic rights beyond the neighbour which was booming during a global recession they might have had a substantial profit to boast about.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25432 posts, RR: 86
Reply 160, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 8718 times:
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Quoting koruman (Reply 159):
I disagree with them, but who is to say that they aren't right while I'm wrong?

Indeed.

Quoting koruman (Reply 159):
And the airline can talk about its little profit, but if it had used its traffic rights beyond the neighbour which was booming during a global recession they might have had a substantial profit to boast about.

I don't think the profit was that "little" - it's only a very small airline - and yes, I'd love to see them use their beyond rights, too.

But we - neither you nor I - actually know what the financial results of that might have been. It is only speculation.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineMr AirNZ From New Zealand, joined Feb 2002, 872 posts, RR: 1
Reply 161, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

Quoting koruman (Reply 159):
And the airline can talk about its little profit, but if it had used its traffic rights beyond the neighbour which was booming during a global recession they might have had a substantial profit to boast about.

Which would have necessitated acquiring extra capacity to use on routes that would at this point in time be looking rather shaky with the drop in commodity prices, the slow down in the mining sector and, as many of the top Australian Economists are forecasting, a looming recession across the country. Many airlines have gone bust by growing fleets when times were good, only to have to pay for them when the times are bad.

I do agree Air NZ is at times maybe slightly too risk averse but a small profit still puts them leagues ahead of many of their competitors.


User currently offlineBlackLabel From New Zealand, joined Jan 2008, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 162, posted (2 years 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 8688 times:

Quoting NZ6 (Reply 141):
You're looking at this the wrong way, not everyone reads the "fine print" of the loyalty programme before deciding their airline of preference. Some fly NZ because of the service, products, schedules, etc etc

Of course. However I was always highly intrigued by the number of native New Zealanders I lived or worked with who would actively avoid NZ, preferring to pursue and accrue frequent flyer miles with Qantas (or Emirates, or Singapore Airlines) when I lived in New Zealand.

I do believe that NZ has arbitrarily missed a rather large market and continues to push more of the market away. In addition to that the T&C of Airpoints has little to do with the rest of the product meeting value for money, which (for the routes I fly), I struggle with at this point -- despite the fact I'd have previously just chosen NZ without really thinking about it. Was that dumb? Perhaps. Did NZ benefit? Absolutely. Does NZ now benefit? No. Do I know a number of other (former) passengers like this? Absolutely.