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Cubana Flying Over USA HAV-Canada  
User currently offlinedoulasc From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 529 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 21026 times:

Cubana Airlines continued to have flights from Havana to Toronto and Montreal after the Castro Embargo of 1959.
My question is in the 1960s-1980s and beyond was Cubana allowed to fly over US air space on a flight from
HAV-YUL/YMX or was Cubana required to detour and fly over the Atlantic Ocean to avoid US air space then
turn into Canada once north of US air space? Also in early times were US carries allowed to fly over Cuba
on their way from Miami to Jamaica or northern South America?

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline26point2 From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 813 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 21003 times:

Not sure about the Cubana routes but US registered private flights route across Cuba every day and have for decades. I have done it many times. North Korea is a very different story in case you wonder.

User currently offlinevhqpa From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20946 times:

According to flightaware they overfly the USA.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/C...0/history/20120908/2200Z/MUHA/CYUL

Although I presume that A320 is a wet lease operation it might be a different story if they tried to send say their Tupolev 204 across.

It would be interesting to see how a potential emergency landing would be handled.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20926 times:

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see how a potential emergency landing would be handled.

They would certainly be allowed to land at a US airport if necessary. What might be interesting is what would become of any Cubans who took the opportunity to request asylum during their unscheduled stop. Presumably they would be allowed to remain in the US.

Also I should add that I think the aircraft would be seized in such a scenario as partial repayment for American assets taken during the Communist revolution.

[Edited 2012-09-08 22:06:52]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineiFlyLOTs From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 457 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 20840 times:

I thought I read somewhere (Airways mag?) that they had to take specific routes over the US for various political reasons.


"...stay hungry, stay foolish" -Steve Jobs
User currently offlineADent From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1359 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 20734 times:

How does Cubana work the TSA Secure Flight program?

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 20716 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
They would certainly be allowed to land at a US airport if necessary. What might be interesting is what would become of any Cubans who took the opportunity to request asylum during their unscheduled stop. Presumably they would be allowed to remain in the US.

That already happened once before in Miami.


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Quoting vhqpa (Reply 2):
might be a different story if they tried to send say their Tupolev 204 across.

Why?
The TU-204 is a modern aircraft that meets all US FAA safety requirements as well as the necessary stage III noise abatement regulations.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1523 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 20644 times:

Just heard the Cubana callsign last week when I was flying between Montreal and New York so they certainly do fly over the US as already proven by vhqpa.

User currently offlineRwy04LGA From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 3176 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 20396 times:

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 1):
North Korea is a very different story in case you wonder

Yep...ATL-ICN...Over the top, over Russia, south to China, hang a right just to the north of PRK, circumvent PRK airspace, approach ICN from the south.



Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12410 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20294 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
They would certainly be allowed to land at a US airport if necessary. What might be interesting is what would become of any Cubans who took the opportunity to request asylum during their unscheduled stop. Presumably they would be allowed to remain in the US.

What might be even more interesting is what would happen to any Americans who happened to be on board; it has been known for US citizens to fly to Canada in order to get to Cuba. Also, would the TSA make a note of the names of pax, in case they wished to enter the US in the future?


User currently offlinevhqpa From Germany, joined Jul 2005, 1456 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20242 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Quoting vhqpa (Reply 2):
might be a different story if they tried to send say their Tupolev 204 across.

Why?
The TU-204 is a modern aircraft that meets all US FAA safety requirements as well as the necessary stage III noise abatement regulations.

In my original reply I wasn't questioning whether or not a particular aircraft could overfly the USA. I'm not 100% sure on the specifics of the US-Cuba embargo but while the A320 operated by a particular airline on behalf of Cubana doesn't seem to pose a problem. It could be a problem if Cubana where operating the flight themselves. I was just using the Tupolev 204 as an example I apologise that my reply was poorly phrased.



"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
User currently offlinerutankrd From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2003, 2963 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 20059 times:
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Quoting vhqpa (Reply 10):
I was just using the Tupolev 204 as an example I apologise that my reply was poorly phrased.

The ty204-100c goes up to Canada on cargo flights regularly.

Both authorities pay their dues and US carriers operate daily charters into Havana.

Cubana are however embargoed from operating into US airports however not from US airspace whilst in transit to Canada along specified routes.

Medical/mechanical diversions would be of NO issue and i doubt that the Cubana craft would be seized .

That said Cubana does employ leased aircraft in the main.


User currently offlineskywaymanaz From United States of America, joined May 2012, 498 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19927 times:

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see how a potential emergency landing would be handled.

There was an emergency with Air Transat flight 961 VRA-YQB in '05 when the rudder detached and fell away. The crew immediately diverted to FLL but somewhere along the line felt comfortable enough controlling the plane to divert back to VRA instead. Canadian crews in particular are probably under pressure not to divert to the US on the route.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 9):
What might be even more interesting is what would happen to any Americans who happened to be on board; it has been known for US citizens to fly to Canada in order to get to Cuba. Also, would the TSA make a note of the names of pax, in case they wished to enter the US in the future?


Not sure if it would be TSA but probably someone under the DHS umbrella. Looking for American tourists and Canadian businessmen due to the Helms-Burton act. This was an issue that came up when the US demanded all Canadian passenger manifests on routes crossing the US. I think a compromise was reached in that the names are cleared w/o noting the flight number so DHS only knows "J. Doe" is a passenger on a Canadian airline and could be YYZ-YVR (crossing Michigan) or YYZ-HAV (crossing east coast). I'm sure Canadian airliner crews would say publicly they would not allow safety to be compromised in an emergency and would land in the US if necessary. Air Transat inicident though indicates a clear willingness on that crews part not to risk landing in the US.


User currently offlinetofen From Sweden, joined Feb 2009, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19619 times:

What happened to the AN-24 that was sitting in Key West? Is it still there?

User currently onlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 19484 times:

Quoting tofen (Reply 13):
What happened to the AN-24 that was sitting in Key West? Is it still there?

I think that was sold on Ebay.

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 10):
I was just using the Tupolev 204 as an example I apologise that my reply was poorly phrased.

No problem. Understood.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1551 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 19429 times:

Quoting vhqpa (Reply 2):
It would be interesting to see how a potential emergency landing would be handled.

Isn't there some UN treaty that if an aircraft is experiencing an emergency, that it can land at the nearest airport that can handle the aircraft? I tend to remember a US carrier having to make an emergency landing in Cuba within the last couple years.

Marc


User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3936 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18960 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
Also I should add that I think the aircraft would be seized in such a scenario as partial repayment for American assets taken during the Communist revolution.

It won't happen.

If the emergency is medical in nature, the aircraft will probably be back in the air before a judge has a chance to sign off on a seizure order.

If it is another emergency and the plane is on the ground longer, expect the FAA, DOT and ATA to make every effort to block a seizure. If a Cuban aircraft is seized in the US for reparation, one of two things will happen.

Either a US aircraft will be grounded in Cuba (US-owned/registered aircraft fly to Cuba every day on government-sanctioned charters) until the Cuban aircraft is returned, or US airlines will be told to fly around the island on the way to and from Miami.



I've got $h*t to do
User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 18944 times:

Yes Northwest landed a DC-10 in THR and the Iranians fixed it and sent it on its way....All countries are part of ICAO a UN divison based in Montreal that takes care of international regulations..

US Airliner Makes Emergency Landing At Tehran (by JoKeR Jun 19 2005 in Civil Aviation)?threadid=2178630&searchid=2178723&s=iran+dc10+northwest#ID2178723


User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 18637 times:

Wonder why hurricane hunters cant fly over Cuba?


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 18220 times:
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US/Cuba relations may go through the public posturing that we have all come to know, but in terms of aviation, things are much calmer. There are two VFR and IFR corridors that cross over Cuba for civil aircraft to overfly the island. Also, for decades, there have been period scheduled charter flights from some Florida airports to HAV. And indeed, CU airliners have been overflying the US for years on routes to YUL and YYZ.

US residents that want to travel to Cuba have had easy access through Canada and Mexico for many years.


User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1606 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 18221 times:

Probally are not members of ICAO it is for Civ Aviation, not Military or Private Aviation

User currently offlineghYHZ From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 18089 times:

Several scheduled charter flights to/from the US use Havana every day. Here’s the Arrivals/Departures at HAV for today on Flight Aware……even includes an American Airlines 737.

http://flightaware.com/live/airport/MUHA


User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 18030 times:
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A little correction. Cubana in the 1970s did fly to YMX but not YYZ. AC did all the Toronto to Cuba flights. I have OAGs from the 1970s. The block times from YUL/YMX to Cuba on AIr Canada were about 3-3.5 indicating a direct routing. On Cubana the block times were 4.5-5 hours. I recall that Cubana had to fly northeast from Montreal around Maine over New Brunswick then out over the ocean. They were not allowed to fly over USA air space. Today there is no problem.

User currently offlineboeing727 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 17880 times:

Early August one of their flights had to turn around back to YUL...not sure why, but elected to return to Canada rather than landing in the US.

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/C...1/history/20120804/2235Z/CYUL/MUHA

Boeing727


User currently offlineghYHZ From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 252 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 17827 times:

Gander was a major refueling point for Eastern Bloc airlines such as Interflug, CSA, Aeroflot on their routes to/from Havana. Newfoundland was far enough east into the Atlantic that a direct route between Canada and Cuba did not require a US overfly.

Passengers were required to deplane in Gander during refueling and many defections took place here (Last paragraph here under “Transatlantic Refueling”)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gander_International_Airport


25 DesertAir : While returning from Quito, Ecuador on AA in 2009 we flew directly over Cuba.
26 Cadet985 : If you're talking about the WC-130J's, they're military aircraft; if you're talking about the NOAA, that's a US governmental agency. Don't know how t
27 SJOtoLIR : Same with AA SJO-MIA every day as well as the other South Florida - Central America segments. These routes have been active for decades. Regards.
28 RP TPA : Sounds a lot like what used to happen on the London to Johannesberg flights years ago. British Airways and South African Air both used 747-400s on th
29 ABQopsHP : Most the of responses to the OPs question was in regards to recent flights. His question was in regards to 60s-80s during the peak of the Cold war? We
30 longhauler : It is never even remotely an issue, nor a consideration. In the last 20 years or so, I have landed in the US twice on Cuban flights. Once in a B737 V
31 longhauler : Also ... what qualifies as "US Airspace"? As New York Oceanic controls airspace south of Gander Oceanic, to half way across the Atlantic, south to ju
32 AAIL86 : 75% of Miami- MCLA flights probably overfly Cuba at some point. It would be an enormous waste of flying time and gas otherwise ....
33 Post contains images LAXintl : Getting back to OP'er question Never heard such. I know there is a law on the sea that one is to render aid, but not aware of aviation. Remember also,
34 harleydriver : U.S. airspace, and its internationally recognized as the same for all countries bordering an ocean or sea is 12NM. Take Wikipedia for what it's worth
35 XFSUgimpLB41X : Years ago, Cuban flights couldn't overfly the US and vice versa for US flights over cuba. Eventually, a couple corridors were opened up to overfly cub
36 N766UA : Cubana flies right over the mainland US every day and has for many years.
37 pnwtraveler : I saw Cubana leave Toronto on Friday evening and it wasn't the normal TACA A320 but another tail that I hadn't seen recently. So either a different TA
38 N766UA : Cubana overflies the mainland US every day and has for many years.
39 timz : And not just the A320s. In the 1990s I used to see Il62s and Tu154s contrailing northwestward over New York City in the afternoon-- both were pretty
40 Bobloblaw : The transit fees the US pays Cuba for overflights, amount to one of the largest sources of hard currency for the island
41 Post contains links Viscount724 : According to this 1998 ICAO press release, Cuban aircraft were limited to routings that avoided overflying the US between Canada and Cuba except for a
42 LTBEWR : I recall that Cubana could overfly the USA from Cuba to Canada but especially in the USSR days, had to take specific routes so not to overfly USA mili
43 Bobloblaw : How do aircraft flying to gitmo fly? I was looking at a map and the western end of gitmo runway is only 2 miles or so from Cuba.
44 cmf : Do you have statistics to back up this claim?
45 timz : Years ago I used to see Il62s and (later?) Tu154s contrailing NWward over New York City. I would have guessed it was before 1998, but maybe not-- when
46 N312RM : While not a common occurrence, there were occasions when flights were denied entry into Cuban airspace and were forced to fly around the island in th
47 ScottB : I'm not sure how much TSA would care, but I suspect the names of any Americans on board would be passed to OFAC (part of Treasury) to investigate whe
48 rfields5421 : They could until the Cuban Missile Crisis - and then it was documented that some of the US Navy WC-121s had special cameras installed so they could t
49 Tomassjc : A bit off topic....I don't know about now, but pre APIS and pre 9/11 many US citizens routed through Mexico to Cuba as well, myself included. When I
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