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Airbus A380 Thoughts In Boston  
User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10496 times:
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Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380? Is there an Issue with massport, or do airlines think that it wont be profitable enough to operate? The A380 can takeoff out of Boston comfortably and there is some Gate Space in Terminal E, the A380 can fit on Taxiways without any issue, and has no issues with landing or taking off (Noise, to much dust or destroying any airport property on takeoff) so why not?


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67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 759 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10522 times:

Weel, at first thought, there are not many routes or airlines that can support an A380 to BOS.

At most, maybe, AF and LH during summer months ... is there any other?!!


User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10515 times:
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Well you have Singapore Airlines that flies into JFK, with JAL starting to get the Asian market, Singapore could fly into JFK and then refuel and make a quickrun to Boston.


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User currently offlineRobertS975 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 947 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10513 times:
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Quoting ASA (Reply 1):
Well you have Singapore Airlines that flies into JFK, with JAL starting to get the Asian market, Singapore could fly into JFK and then refuel and make a quickrun to Boston.

OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8315 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting delta88 (Thread starter):

Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380?

Because there's 0 routes from Boston that require that many seats. Just because a jet can fit at an airport doesn't remotely mean there's demand for it.

Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.



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User currently onlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10510 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Because there's 0 routes from Boston that require that many seats. Just because a jet can fit at an airport doesn't remotely mean there's demand for it.

  

BUT...we talk about 'demand' on a daily basis. Who's to say an airline couldn't make a go of an A380 on a 1x or 2x per week basis? Is that even feasible? If there are 600 people who go from Boston to, say, Dubai via various connections on a weekly basis, then Emirates could fly one weekly A380 into Boston and scoop them all up.

I know the feasibility of this is minimal (because the passenger who needs to fly on some other day of the week won't get 'scooped up) which is why the 787 via Qatar will likely be the very first Middle East service into Boston.

I cannot think of any international route out of Boston--not even London--that would make sense for an A380.

But if they could fly a A380 from Boston to the Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut, that might work. I think demand = supply there

 


User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 10512 times:
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There may not be demand to Boston, but from Boston, Boston is in New England, New England gets miserable Winters, even once Weekly service to Europe or connections to JFK and LAX to fly to Warmer destinations might be feasible, as long as its a lower price, you could in Theory get a significant amount of passengers, i mean the 787 daily flight is usually close to Full, so you may not fill it but you could use it to your Advantage, especially in Advertising. JAL used that, saying they were the First to Boston in a 787, and First Back to Asia, so you never know....


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User currently offlinejcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10506 times:

And since there is no market for A380 service to/from BOS, Massport has done little infrastructure improvements to support A380 service. There is a limited specific taxi route an A380 must follow at Logan and currently only 1 gate can support an A380. And it basically uses 2 gates because it makes the adjacent gate unusable so it inhibits operations at the international building.

User currently offlinedelta88 From United States of America, joined May 2009, 87 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10508 times:
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But if Airlines show intrest, Massport might spend a little extra to Improve gate Spacing, im sure given time it'll pay off, Rome wasnt built in a Day, Airlines dont always fill the aircraft, but if the Right Airline flies to the Right Destination, it could work, Bostonians always like to get to places quickly


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User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10516 times:

Quoting delta88 (Reply 8):
But if Airlines show intrest, Massport might spend a little extra to Improve gate Spacing, im sure given time it'll pay off, Rome wasnt built in a Day, Airlines dont always fill the aircraft, but if the Right Airline flies to the Right Destination, it could work, Bostonians always like to get to places quickly

Who really cares if there is 380 service or not? BOS still is very well served to Europe and sees a great variety of wide bodies to LHR, MAD, ZRH, FCO, MUC, AMS, etc.


User currently onlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1156 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10511 times:

Quoting delta88 (Reply 8):
Bostonians always like to get to places quickly

Which is exactly why the 787 will do very well in Boston.

The A380 won't work in Boston until a major international airline decides to open a hub in BOS (or JetBlue starts int'l service with a fleet of A380's).
I understand you want to see the A380 there but unfortunately, much like PHL, I don't see BOS getting an A380 anytime in the next 10 years or so.


User currently offlineASA From Bangladesh, joined Dec 2010, 759 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10505 times:

Quoting MAV88 (Reply 9):
Who really cares if there is 380 service or not? BOS still is very well served to Europe and sees a great variety of wide bodies to LHR, MAD, ZRH, FCO, MUC, AMS, etc.

oh yeah ... driving past Logan in the afternoon is always a treat! With all those European tails next to Terminal E ... and also the JAL tail in mid-day .... who needs the Manatees!   


User currently onlinechrisnh From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4137 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10512 times:

Quoting jcarv (Reply 7):
And it basically uses 2 gates because it makes the adjacent gate unusable so it inhibits operations at the international building.

Compounding this is that any time an A380 lumbers into Boston on a diversion, it is usually doing so when all the other European inbounds are lumbering in. 'No room at the inn,' so to speak. BUT if it is a weather-related diversion, does it even need to pull up to a gate anyway?


User currently offlinedfambro From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 333 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10509 times:

380 regular service would be great, but I think we've got a better shot to see an LH 748 first.

...or a KE 748  


User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 10509 times:

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.

Ok, first off, this is a forum where people are encouraged to post or reply. Serious or not it's not up to you to dictate when the discussion ends. Some people take this stuff wayyyyy too seriously. If you don't like his post, don't respond....

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):
Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.

That's not true. You can see year round BA, AF, LH and occasionally VS 747's at BOS. Generally when AF goes down to 1x CDG and LH 1x FRA in the winter they both send 747's. BA ALWAYS has at least 1, if not 2, of the 3 LHR flights on 74's.

During the summer time when AA/BA have around 6 flights combined, you don't think 2 or 3 of those could be combined into 1 A380 when BA gets there's? Granted I know other destinations will see them first, but at some point one has to think BOS could be a contender (if not to free up slots alone).


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8315 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 10446 times:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
But if they could fly a A380 from Boston to the Foxwoods Casino in Connecticut, that might work. I think demand = supply there

Haha yeah maybe at, what, 3 bucks a seat? Gotta compete with those busses!

Quoting clrd4t8koff (Reply 14):
That's not true. You can see year round BA, AF, LH and occasionally VS 747's at BOS.

It is, though. Neither BA, AF, LH, or VS fly their 747s year-round. At any time of the year you can usually catch 1 or 2 of them, yes, but none of them are year-round. BA goes to a 777, LH goes to an A343/346, AF goes to an A343, and VS goes to an A346 when they can't fill their 744s.



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User currently offlinejcarv From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 364 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 10310 times:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 12):

Out of the handful of A380 diversions BOS has had, AF diverted twice from JFK on weather diversions when they first received the A380 and they cancelled. Continued on the next day with passengers.


User currently offlinespiritair97 From United States of America, joined Jan 2011, 1231 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10236 times:

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 5):
BUT...we talk about 'demand' on a daily basis. Who's to say an airline couldn't make a go of an A380 on a 1x or 2x per week basis? Is that even feasible? If there are 600 people who go from Boston to, say, Dubai via various connections on a weekly basis, then Emirates could fly one weekly A380 into Boston and scoop them all up.

NO. EK is like the WN of longhaul travel. They tend not to do weekly or even non-daily service, and if they did, they wouldn't send an a380. The best chance I can see of EK at BOS is a seasonal 77L, MAYBE.

As for a380s @ BOS, I agree with everybody else. Just because airlines fly 747s there, means they can make a 747 work. It doesn't mean that every 747 route can obviously be handled with an a380.


User currently offlineMAV88 From United States of America, joined May 2011, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 10233 times:

Is this how an airport is going to be measured? If they 380 service or not? I would much rather have a solid variety of foreign carriers flying service to a solid array of cities than having the 380 come.

User currently offlineBOStonsox From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 1990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 9992 times:

I don't think it would be out of the question to see it eventually, just not now. BOS-LHR has 1350 PDEW (I got this number from the article on BOS on wikipedia, divided by 2, then 365- if this is wrong, feel free to correct me!) and that is mostly local traffic since there is no hub here. Granted, some of that goes to DL and VS, but if other factors come into play (B6 joining OneWorld, for example), I don't think an A380 wouldn't be too unlikely. I'd certainly like to fly it myself some day!


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User currently offlineclrd4t8koff From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 225 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 9544 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 15):
It is, though. Neither BA, AF, LH, or VS fly their 747s year-round. At any time of the year you can usually catch 1 or 2 of them, yes, but none of them are year-round. BA goes to a 777, LH goes to an A343/346, AF goes to an A343, and VS goes to an A346 when they can't fill their 744s

I encourage you to look at BA's LHR schedule where you will see AT LEAST 1 744 a day to Heathrow. Summer schedule is 2x 744's. AF, LH, VS I will agree tend to fluctuate more and will change aircraft. BA, however, is a sure thing year round.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7543 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 9434 times:

IIRC, there are only 5 airports in the U.S. that either have/had their airfileds upgraded to support regularly scheduled A380 (which is one FAA Group Aircraft class higher than that of a 747 (excluding the 748)) operations and/or obtained permission from the FAA for such (JFK likely falls in the latter category).

I do not believe (if someone else knows otherwise, feel free to chime in) that BOS is one of those 5 airports that either has upgraded nor obtained permission/waivers from the FAA to support regular Group VI aircraft (the A380 and 748 are classified as such) operations. The FAA Aircraft Group classification is based on wingspan ranges w/the 747-200/300/400 being on the top end of the Group V aircraft class.

The main issue with such large aircraft is not only terminal space & gate layout, but also airfield layout; particularly minimum offset distances between parallel taxiways and/or parallel runway/taxiway layouts. The FAA established the offset distance criteria per each aircraft group.

Given how long (30-35 years) it took to shoehorn a unidirectional commuter runway (14-32) at BOS; I don't see them upgrading their airfields for regularly-scheduled Group VI aircraft operations anytime soon.



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User currently offlineairbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8510 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9366 times:

Quoting delta88 (Thread starter):
Ive been wondering, while Boston has become a great airport for A380 diversions, why don't airlines start scheduling services to Boston in an A380?

Simple: BOS is not A380 ready and will likely not be any time soon.

Quoting RobertS975 (Reply 3):
OK, now you have destroyed any seriousness with which this thread could have been taken. There are no scheduled A380 ops into BOS because the market is NOT there. End of discussion.

Nonesense!

Quoting N766UA (Reply 4):

Most of Logan's 747s are seasonal, reduced to A340s or 777s for half of the year.

Wrong. LH, AF, and BA operate 744's all Winter long.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 21):
The main issue with such large aircraft is not only terminal space & gate layout, but also airfield layout; particularly minimum offset distances between parallel taxiways and/or parallel runway/taxiway layouts. The FAA established the offset distance criteria per each aircraft group.

  
Simply put, there is no space at BOS to make it a Cat VI airport without significant, and very costly changes, if at all possible. A one-off diversion is hard enough to handle, and allowed as an exception and all ground ops come to a compelte halt. Usually the plane doesn't even come to the terminal, it just sits at a remote stand. When it does come to the terminal, the gate next to is has to be closed. At peak time that is not an option, hence why it stays at a remote stand, usually.

But the biggest issue is not even the terminal, but the taxiways. There isn't enough clearance between the taxiways to allow an A380 to taxi without halting all other airport movements.

BOS-LHR, BOS-FRA, and possibly BOS-CDG could easily be operated with an A380. The demand is certainly there. The great thing about BOS from Europe is that it's only 6 hours away and airlines could schedule the A380 in between their long haul routes. BA, LH, and AF all operate 744's even in Winter, and they all have multiple frequencies in the Summer. The thought that BOS-LHR and BOS-FRA don't have enough demand for an A380 even if just seasonal, is ridiculous.


User currently offlineTWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 2211 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9330 times:

People also said IAH wouldn't get an A380 and look what happened there. I'm not saying BOS will get the A380, but I'm saying weirder things have happened. With that said, if an AA/US merger plays through and all the speculation about BOS growth turns to be true, it wouldn't surprise me to see a BA A380 there in the next few years... Just my   


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User currently offlineStratacruiser From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 9283 times:

BA would seem the most likely candidate to introduce the A380 to BOS given that they currently offer the most transatlantic seats. However, it would seem unlikely they would sacrifice a frequency, so without justification for a considerable uptick in the number of seats offered, why bump up capacity? (Remember JV partner AA also kicks in a few hundred seats per day). Second issue is lack of dual jetway gates at Logan - not an issue for diversions, but presumably a problem for regular service.

Dave


25 AirlineCritic : Well... I think it it might be possible that some of the existing 744 service could upgrade to 380 as far as demand is concerned. Or that a BOS-LHR/F
26 Post contains images lightsaber : BOS is one of those cities that will benefit more by fragmentation than trunk route expansion. I see BOS also benefiting from the NEO/MAX once they a
27 Post contains images TWA772LR : I know this is about BOS, but I think LH will be the most likely candidate for an A380 to DEN
28 Post contains images airbazar : And ATL They don't need to give up frequencies. BA and AA have near identical departure and arrival times. You could easily combine 2 into 1 and save
29 PHLBOS : A few things: 1. IAH is a much newer airport than BOS; it opened in 1969, just when the first 747s started coming on line. 2. It's located about 23 m
30 N766UA : Okay, obviously you're right. I mean, AFR333 is a 777-200 for the entire week of 12/17 (in fact, every day in December I've checked is a 777), but th
31 airbazar : And exactly how will BOS accomodate this fragmentation in an airport that can't expand? BOS is the perfect A380 airport, if only there was the space
32 clrd4t8koff : Finally, someone who actually KNOWS a thing or two about the BOS market. The point is this - BOS will most likely NOT see an A380 due to infrastructu
33 N766UA : Haha I would if I hadn't been watching them all fly something other than 744s year after year. I said you can catch a 747 at any time, which is corre
34 Post contains images lightsaber : That was supposed to be *very* expensive and yet it happened. BOS will too. We're only talking a small number of gates. Today there are still some sl
35 spiritair97 : BIG difference between IAH/ATL and BOS. For one, IAH is a HUGE Star Alliance hub, with extensive connections to help fill the a380. Same with ATL and
36 N766UA : I agree. It's funny too, because Logan was my airport for years up until about 4 months ago. I think maybe their point is that 747's are not rare, wh
37 Post contains images TWA772LR : 1. IAH didn't get as much land as it owns now until the past ten years when they bought all the unused land being occupied by trees between 8R/26L an
38 aeroblogger : I've been wondering, while YQX gets lots of 757 TATL diversions, why doesn't somebody start scheduling 757 TATL services?
39 chrisnh : Really? That's news. All they've done is shrink in Boston, and they are nconsequential or nonexistent across the region (MHT/PWM/PVD).
40 jumpjets : Don't want to seem picky - but just chose a few random dates between December 2012 and February 2013 and on all dates ba.com is showing 3x 777 servic
41 bobnwa : Why would having more 757 TATL service effect the diversions into YQX?
42 alphaomega : Incorrect, LH and BA operate the 744s year-round, only AF changes from 2 744s to 1 772 as they are doing this winter, and AF have actually entertaine
43 Post contains images airbazar : Nope, I wish too. 748 is a Cat VI airplane just like the A380 so it can't operate here. The gates and slots are the least of the problems. Even Termi
44 PHLBOS : Fair enough but BOS' airfield is essentially the same size as it's been since the 1960s. IIRC, JFK's airfield is more massive than BOS'. Additionally
45 HUYfan : I work for BA, and operate the Boston on a regular basis. We certainly do operate 744 year round on the route. At least once a day in the winter, and
46 PHLBOS : The wingspan for the Boeing 777-200/300 is 199 feet-11 inches; which is well within the Group V aircraft range (wingspan between 171-214 feet). I cou
47 clrd4t8koff : AF did send A340's....as the 2nd daily to CDG. The winter, which was 1x daily, was a 747 and carried through the summer. Completely wrong....just did
48 MAV88 : Well said. There are only a small number of North American cities where BA will see a big need to send the 380. Miami, Atlanta, Denver, Dallas and Ho
49 jumpjets : Your petulant attitude doesn't really merit me wasting any more of my time on your views - but just to encourage you to think more widely try 20th Ja
50 mah4546 : Miami is BA's second busiest long-haul station in terms of passengers carried after JFK. And that is not just in North America, that's among every si
51 Post contains images airbazar : Whatever little I read was that it will likely be into the group VI category because a longer wing is one of the determining factors in fuel efficien
52 PHLBOS : The big question is how much wider will the wingspan of the 777X will be in comparison to its other stablemates. If Boeing can achieve the desired fu
53 clrd4t8koff : Love that cheeky British attitude. Back to your inital post stating all BA flights BOS-LHR between December 2012 and February 2013 were 777's - What
54 MAV88 : I was saying BA would NOT send the 380 to those cities..........
55 aeroblogger : It won't. I was applying OP's logic:
56 jumpjets : I don't want to hijack the debate on whether A380s will ever get to BOS but going back to the original quote I disputed: My little exercise simply sho
57 PHLBOS : As stated multiple times in this thread the issue w/scheduled A380 usage isn't so much demand as much it is infrastructure. If BOS' airfield isn't mo
58 dfambro : We're all just assuming that if a carrier wants to bring a 380 here regularly, the changes will get made.
59 ChrisNH : When AA was flying more seats BOS-LHR aboard 777s, it made sense for BA to go to the 777 as well. But since AA has decided to cut seats by using 757s,
60 Post contains images airbazar : Oops I think it will take more than that because the changes that need to be made are so intrusive and significant, assuming that it can even be done
61 mah4546 : And BA won't send the A380 to it's second busiest long-haul station (MIA) because...? And BOSLHR really isn't that far fetched if the facilities exis
62 airbazar : I would guess JFK and MIA are 1 and 2 on the list, with LAX a close 3rd. Any destination in N.America that currently only sees a single daily flight
63 Post contains images lightsaber : Airports seem to cry for huge sums of money to become CAT VI ready and then somehow become ready with little money when a business case is found. If
64 airbazar : That's the thing, when the 744's are gone from BA's, LH's, and AF's fleets, the number of seats they can offer into BOS at preferred flying times wil
65 PHLBOS : Those changes happen to be airfield changes, particularly taxiway spacing and separation. Such changes are very costly in this day and age of enhance
66 ChrisNH : Put another way, if there's a spotted newt within 95 miles of Logan Airport nothing will happen. Lifestyles of the haughty elites.
67 alphaomega : True story - and got a hotel to block 32 included in the deal!
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