caleb1 From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 321 posts, RR: 3 Posted (8 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 8980 times:
I was on a UA P.S. flight from LAX to JFK a couple of weeks ago and was listening to Channel 9 on approach to JFK. I was both blown away by, and in awe of, the rapid-fire speed at which the JFK controllers issued instructions to pilots both in the air and on the ground. I have a Private Pilot's license and although I haven't flown in years, I am still familiar with the language and terminology of ATC. The exchanges I heard at JFK between controllers and pilots, however, was practically indecipherable to me due to their speed. Granted, I have neither the experience nor the expertise of a commericial pilot, but is ATC miscomunication by expericed pilots common at JFK? Also, it must be an absolute nightmare for pilots to respond to and execute these instructions if they are not completely comfortable speaking English. I can only imagine how much worse it gets when the weather is really bad in the New York metro area. Any thoughts or comments?
fcogafa From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 633 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8996 times:
It has always struck me that American controllers say a lot more, much faster and are more agressive than is necessary. Then they are surprised when foreign pilots do not understand them.
Compare that to Heathrow controllers who manage to move more aircraft in a smaller space than JFK with just as complex a taxiway system and many more foreign pilots, whilst remaining calm, polite and saying less.
N62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3681 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9002 times:
There was a topic a few years ago that included a link to a recording of JFK ATC and a huge mess caused by one of the foreign pilots. He wasn't where he was supposed to be and the controller's handling of the situation was, er, quite interesting.
On a related note - I was on an AA flight PHL-MIA a few years ago and a few seconds after takeoff this "strange" announcement came over the PA system, something like: "American 382 124.4 Good day." I of course knew what that was but there was some confused looks on the faces of some of the passengers!
khpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 8998 times:
a few thoughts..
1) think about JFK during prime time rush hour with flights being cleared for take off and landing as frequently as possible, imagine the amount of metal moving around from 8-10am on a summer day, in ideal weather conditions, the amount of planes that are trying to get up or get down is mind blowing.. with such fast paced traffic it seems natural that the controllers issue commands as quickly as they can.
2) the fact that they do this all day every day as a career leads me to believe that they will get pretty good at saying something like "jetBlue XXX rwy XX cleared to land" or clearing a plane for the breezy point climb, or directing a plane to switch to a departure frequency.. they probably say such things hundreds of times to the point where it is second nature.
now couple those two points with the fact that they are some of, if not THE best controllers in the country and have gone through extensive training and simulation, they're pretty much prepared for any situation and already know exactly what to say before they even need to say it..
do they speak fast? yes
do they have an edge in their voices in moments of stress? OF COURSE! THEY'RE NEW YORKERS!!
are they professionals? certainly.
as for the pilot aspect of things, if you watch any footage of a landing or departure from JFK you'll see the crew working very closely together, flying into JFK really requires one pilot to aviate and the other to communicate. the smoothest approaches are those where the PIC only has to focus on flying the plane, while the 2nd in command's responsibility is to communicate with controllers while guiding the pilot/plane to follow ATC's instruction.
MGASJO From Nicaragua, joined Feb 2005, 449 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 9003 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 3):
There was a topic a few years ago that included a link to a recording of JFK ATC and a huge mess caused by one of the foreign pilots. He wasn't where he was supposed to be and the controller's handling of the situation was, er, quite interesting.
Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.
khpn From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 138 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8801 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 6): Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 8744 times:
The NYC controllers are some of the best in the business. If you can't handle it then you better turn your plane around and go home. Things in NYC get even faster paced once you're off airport property.
RobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3932 posts, RR: 19 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8558 times:
Quoting flyby519 (Reply 9): The NYC controllers are some of the best in the business
..but they have the worst attitudes ever. I spend a lot of time listening the WATRS area (basically the Atlantic west of 60W) which is controlled by New York ARINC and it nearly makes my blood boil hearing how those male operators speak to the pilots. If you make the slightest mistake reading back an oceanic clearance or a re-route, out come all the snide remarks and heavy sighing and basically speak to you like you're some inept idiot. And god help you if your native language isn't English. How the Transoviet pilots manage to restrain themselves from giving them a mouthful back is astonishing.
I should also mention in fairness that the vast majority of the NYC ARINC female operators are absolutely lovely and very patient.
N243NW From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1494 posts, RR: 21 Reply 11, posted (8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8554 times:
I may take some flak for saying it here, but I've said it multiple times before after listening to the recordings of JFK controllers dealing with foreign pilots. I find that often the pilots are the first to make a mistake, but many of these audio recordings reveal terrible phraseology on the part of ATC. Being the best and most professional controllers out there means speaking in clear, concise, approved phraseology, not speaking like a machine gun in an attempt to sound cool or smart.
Proper communication means not throwing words like "interrogative" around on the frequency (the Air China 981 link above). Do the controllers honestly think that using this kind of verbiage will get them the result they want? It seems that the more frustrated the controller gets, the more nonstandard his transmissions become. Granted, that Air China pilot was pretty bad, but there's blame to go around on both sides here.
Of course, I'm sure that many foreign airlines try to send their most proficient English speaking pilots to airports like JFK, for this reason.
PHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4966 posts, RR: 14 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 8506 times:
Quoting caTIII (Reply 2): Cue the quarterly "let's bash JFK controllers for being rude/having NYC accents/speaking too fast" thread...
But they're so funny! Why bash them?
Quoting N62NA (Reply 6): Nope, not that one. The one I'm thinking about had the guy go onto the wrong taxiway and then the controller had to route a whole bunch of planes around him. I'll try finding it now.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19712 posts, RR: 56 Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8302 times:
Quoting N243NW (Reply 11): I find that often the pilots are the first to make a mistake, but many of these audio recordings reveal terrible phraseology on the part of ATC.
ATC phraseology in the US is poor, no doubt about it. When I was flying from Mexico to the US, there was a noticeable difference when one passed from Mexican airspace into Houston Center's airspace - the english became harder to understand.
But that's a cultural thing, and it will not change overnight, only when the current generation moves out of their jobs and a newer generation (hopefully instilled with a better appreciation of how to do things properly) moves in.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7992 posts, RR: 27 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8283 times:
Quoting Mir (Reply 17): But that's a cultural thing, and it will not change overnight, only when the current generation moves out of their jobs and a newer generation (hopefully instilled with a better appreciation of how to do things properly) moves in.
Just FYI, the newer generation of controllers appreciates their job FAR less than the "old timers." There are a lot of good new guys, don't get me wrong, but the culture shift is enormous. I wouldn't bank on anything you just said.
I suppose that's not surprising, though. Take a look anywhere in our society- would you say the younger generations are more or less considerate, thoughtful, careful, interested, interesting, or driven?
airportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8273 times:
Quoting N62NA (Reply 15): I never heard of "Boston Bob" - but if he used to work in Boston and now is in Puerto Rico, I would consider that a much better assignment!
I can't access youtube at the moment, but if you search for "Boston John" you should find a few clips. Very enthusiastic guy, was very polite, and just had a certain way of saying things that you couldn't forget
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7992 posts, RR: 27 Reply 20, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8260 times:
Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 19): Very enthusiastic guy, was very polite, and just had a certain way of saying things that you couldn't forget
And he was damn good at his job. The way he spoke also made his instructions easier to understand, and I've found myself incorporating them into my radio calls as well. For example, John would draw out "hold short" as "…hooold short…" so you knew to slow down and hold up just based on his tone.
airportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3065 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8261 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 16): That's a shame! John was a lot of fun to watch work. He'd actually wave to every airplane as it took off while saying his trademark "hasta lavista."
Yup! Or the ubiquitous "Mocha Hagotdi" to the 9K's
CCA From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 708 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8213 times:
What's better, having to say it 3 times fast and slightly different each time or once slowly?
The point being I like NY ATC it's slick if English is your first language but it's a joke trying to be slick with foreign carries but it could be if they just slowed it down when it's obvious from the first transmission they guys not familiar with NY.
Things to consider.
Crews may go there once a year.
They could be at their circadian low.
It could be the end of a 12,13,14hr trip.
I've even heard a US carrier with a Texan accent tell NY to slow down.
flyby519 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 852 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 8162 times:
Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 13): Last I heard, Boston John was doing ATC in Puerto Rico...so I heard, anyways
That was the last I heard as well, but I have flown into SJU several times in the past year and havent heard him. Anyone confirm if he's down there working tower?
26 airportugal310: Yup and yup, I think. I have definitely been hearing the "cyaaaaaa" more Actually, this clip here covers just about everything you and I mentioned ht
27 Goldenshield: That's because Texans listen as fast as they talk.
28 modesto2: While New York controllers have a reputation for speaking quickly and firing orders, I've had nothing but good experiences with them in the several ye
29 IAHFLYR: There is complete truth to that......the pilot I am thinking of actually told the controller after a few missed radio transmissions, "do you hear how
30 sjc4me: Sorry but i take exception to that. From what I've heard on the recordings, NY phraseology is awful. You would get made fun of if you brought that cr
31 nycdave: True. The best people just happen to live in NY
32 TatTVC: Some things to share: As a pilot myself (PPL and doing the IFR lessons as we speak) with the goal of eventually flying the big toys, some things from
33 N766UA: And incredibly diverse. While training for a job once, I was docked points for having "folksy" phraseology, which comes from my pilot background. "Le
34 Jpax: As an EWR based pilot, the only people I see get flustered with this type of communication are foreigners, weekend warriors and new hires. There's the
35 N766UA: Ugh, and they always have to explain that in vivid detail, too! Just file IFR and keep your life story to yourself and you're fine. As for Air france
36 Maverick623: Rumor has it that controller was a big part of the reason why JFK was a nightmare for ATC delays for a while. Couldn't keep up with it all and was a
37 shufflemoomin: Hard to ignore the racism of saying "foreigners" don't understand ATC and are usually at fault. All foreigners don't speak English well? Is that what
38 petrhsr: I'd say it's Americans in general, not just ATC @ JFK...
39 Cubsrule: How is it racist? School doesn't teach you to speak like a native, in English or in any other language. Natives are going to understand natives the b
40 irelayer: This is a common generational refrain. Every generation thinks the next generation is somehow inferior or have lost some vague "notion" that defined
41 N766UA: You're right up to about the year 2002. Twitter, Facebook, YouTube, etc have obliterated that model. People literally care less now. It's all about v
42 JHCRJ700: Best part of this is when he mumbles to himself "you guys, you can't just do that". I'll listen to this clip then forget about it and come across it
43 fcogafa: Although I was referring to JFK airport rather than the airspace, I think you will find that the London TMA is one of the busiest areas of airspace i
44 LONGisland89: In all fairness, the ARINC radio operators are just that, radio operators. They control nothing. John is the facility manager at SJU, you will rarely
45 N766UA: Nice! Good for John. Nice pay bump, sunny locale, plus that's closer to home for him, no?
46 Rwy04LGA: Plato/Socrates said something similar 2000+ years ago. At 7:11 the controller says the pilots should 'come up here one day...you'd enjoy the show'. L
47 N766UA: Haha they must have been right! We've come a long way from the likes of Plato and Socrates. Now we've got… Washington DC and Hollywood. Blech!
49 GoBoeing: I find EWR controllers to be much more professional and less dramatic than the JFK controllers. The JFK gang sounds like they make their own mess some
50 Alias1024: I think Great Lakes must include this in their newhire indoc classes. I hear it sporadically from controllers and other airlines, but it's almost a c
51 SPREE34: True. Unfortunately it's a combination of lawyers writting the handbook, and controllers compounding it with added verbiage. Been there, heard it and
52 N766UA: Yep, absolutely. Fortunately they can't get away with that attitude for long on the floor, but many will try. Kids in OKC who haven't even graduated
53 IAHFLYR: The ones who try usually end up with a few different instructors, get extensions in training hours, file grievances and are generally a pain in the b
54 N766UA: Ugh, I know many of those. Fortunately, I know a few who take things very seriously, too, and they understand their place and look up to the guys who
Sponsor Message: 
From United States of America, joined Nov 2008, 321 posts, 
From United Kingdom, joined May 2008, 633 posts, 
From Nicaragua, joined Feb 2005, 449 posts, 
From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 4966 posts, 
From Hong Kong, joined Oct 2002, 708 posts, 
Printer friendly format 
