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QF-EK Tie Up - Slot Times In Continental Europe  
User currently offlineesdex From Australia, joined Jan 2011, 50 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 8956 times:

Interesting perspective on the QF-EK tie up. Having just chosen to fly SQ from Sydney to continental Euroope with arrival and trip times being a significant factor in deciding to pay a couple of hundred more for the fare, I have to say I agree with the author.

http://www.smh.com.au/travel/blogs/t...qantas-network-20120910-25nei.html

If this deal does just result in QF passengers experiencing EK product, how would QF be justifying this as a realistic expansion of European presence? Does code-sharing work for the junior partner (QF) in other similar examples for any other airline?

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Quoting esdex (Thread starter):

It's very interesting how the article has not mentioned the fact QF have another 2 x LHR slots presently leased to BA for an X amount of years... AJ has forecast the International of the flying kangaroo to return to profitability by 2016 & B787s coming online... I put my money on QF reinstating European cities which have been dropped & the 2 x LHR services...
If many of us aren't happy with the QF service then fly another carrier!

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineesdex From Australia, joined Jan 2011, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8620 times:

I guess that's my point. I wasn't happy with the scheduling offer so I chose to fly SQ, and now have a Krisflyer account etc.So what I'm wondering about is whether AJ's strategy of allowing EK to take all the continental traffic especially when the time slots for EK departures to continental Europe don't favour departing Australia on QF metal, will simply serve to expose increasing numbers of hitherto loyal QF customers to his competition?

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24636 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8587 times:
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Quoting esdex (Thread starter):
Interesting perspective on the QF-EK tie up. Having just chosen to fly SQ from Sydney to continental Euroope with arrival and trip times being a significant factor in deciding to pay a couple of hundred more for the fare, I have to say I agree with the author.

Isn't it a bit earlerly to be making hudgements like this?

Even Ben Sandilands, who knocks Qantas hard at every opportunity, admits that it could happen that way - not that it will.

http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalk...bai-appears-to-offer-small-change/

"While it’s early days, and the Qantas-Emirates partnership may be some time away from ACCC approval, there would be surprisingly little scheduling overlapping between Qantas A380s and Emirates connections at Dubai airport if the deal was in effect now."

I don't think a final schedule has been published yet. Or any schedule.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8557 times:

Quoting esdex (Reply 2):
I guess that's my point. I wasn't happy with the scheduling offer so I chose to fly SQ, and now have a Krisflyer account etc.So what I'm wondering about is whether AJ's strategy of allowing EK to take all the continental traffic especially when the time slots for EK departures to continental Europe don't favour departing Australia on QF metal, will simply serve to expose increasing numbers of hitherto loyal QF customers to his competition?

QF & EK scheduling will be aligned with one an other connecting onto the banks of European, Middle Eastern, Americas and South American routes & EK passengers able to earn points on QFs domestic network... Loyal customers from both sides will benefit from the changes ahead and mainly at QF...
AJs decision wasn't an easy one but certainly one that had to be made considering the competition on the kangaroo route...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8466 times:

Quoting esdex (Thread starter):
Interesting perspective on the QF-EK tie up.

As others have mentioned, final schedules haven't been published but one thing that is omitted in the linked article is that under the existing arrangements the transfers to non-QF operated destinations were not all timed to arrive at 6.00 or 7.00 am. Many travellers found that they had to transfer twice and the additional layovers and flight times meant that they wouldn't arrive at their European destinations until later in any case.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 4):
EK passengers able to earn points on QF's domestic network

This will certainly attract those who might otherwise fly with Virgin, Skywest, etc to connect to/ from an EK flight. Shame that the agreement doesn't extend to all QF domestic flights.


User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4691 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 8465 times:

Quoting EK413 (Reply 4):
EK passengers able to earn points on QFs domestic network...

Actually Skywards members can only earn on domestic flights when it is connecting to an international sector

Source: http://www.qantasandemirates.com/dow...FREQUENTLY%20ASKED%20QUESTIONS.pdf

Quoting esdex (Reply 2):
simply serve to expose increasing numbers of hitherto loyal QF customers to his competition?

Even if a QF passenger goes all the way to Europe on EK (as passengers from Perth and Brisbane invariably will) there isn't really a problem with them "experiencing the competition". So long as they come back to QF for domestic, Asia and USA then it's a non-issue to AJ.



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinemdavies06 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2009, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

The present QF schedule going into LHR via SIN cannot really be moved to DXB without some adjustment. Because the DXB EK European flights primary wave scheduling is based around morning outbound departure and evening inbound arrival, I'd expect QF to have at least 1 of 2 or both of their flights to fit into these banks. However, this will cause an issue with SYD because it will imply a late evening arrival there. To avoid this issue and also to keep a morning arrival into LHR, I'd expect QF to have one rotation kept with a morning arrival into LHR and an evening departure from LHR, arriving into SYD T+2 morning. It doesn't mean that QF needs to have a plane sitting at LHR the whole day - the plane departing from LHR at night can come off the one which arrives there in the afternoon.

User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4480 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7941 times:

Since QF is restricted to the LHR slots it currently operates, I envisage that the schedules of QF001/002 and QF009/010 will not move a lot. I would expect something along the following lines for the outbound services:

QF001 SYD DXB 1610 0040 +1
QF001 DXB LHR 0205 0635

QF009 MEL DXB 1530 2330
QF009 DXB LHR 0110 0540

Both of these services would arrive right into the EK main midnight arrivals bank and would connect to the smaller, but growing European departure bank of 2 - 3 am, which currently features services to LGW, MAN, FRA, CDG and MXP besides the existing EK-operated LHR service. EK is in the process of building this wave and I would expect services to such destinations as FCO, ZRH, and DME to be added in the not too distant future. Australia originating passengers to other European destinations will have to rely on the EK operated services from SYD, MEL, BNE, ADL and PER that depart later in the evening from Australia. The midnight arrival time in DXB will also mean that the QF operated service will benefit from feed from EK operated services in that arrivals bank and connecting to LHR.

For the Eastbound sectors, I would expect the following schedules:

QF002 LHR DXB 2130 0730 +1
QF002 DXB SYD 0900 0500 +2

QF010 LHR DXB 2230 0830 +1
QF010 DXB MEL 1000 0530 +2

Both QF operated services arrive and depart within EK's main arrivals and departure banks of the day. The LHR originating services can feed into the entire EK network, whereas the Australia bound services will benefit from direct feed from the EK operated European evening departures which currently operate from GLA, MAN, BHX, LGW, CDG, LYS, MAD, LIS, FCO, MXP, VCE, ZRH, VIE, MUC, FRA, DUS, HAM and DME and to which DUB, AMS and BCN should be added in the next couple of seasons. Add to that the inbound feed from EK's regional and African network and these flights are actually perfectly timed.

In time, the QF-owned slots currently on lease to BA will become available and I would expect these slots to be used for additional EK operated LHR services (the airline's 6th and 7th daily flights). I would expect QF to stick to its current slots as they fit fine within the EK DXB operational model.

All in all, I do not see too many issues with the QF slots at LHR, as they allow for a near perfect fit with EK's hub operation at DXB. Sure enough, the cancellation of QF's FRA services will make that FRA bound passengers will arrive at their destinations a bit later and will have to leave FRA a bit earlier (thus avoiding the Damocles sword of the FRA curfew around current QF FRA departure time), but that does not stack up against the large number of new European and other destinations which become available through the EK cooperation.


User currently offlineBrad330 From Australia, joined Dec 2009, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7878 times:

QF still own another early morning arrival slot and a lunchtime slot, as well as a lunchtime departure slot and late evening slot.

User currently offlineBurkhard From Germany, joined Nov 2006, 4360 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7836 times:

I can imagine SQ and LH to be the real winners of this. EK cannot fly one seat more from Germany to Dubai due to this code share - they are limited by the amount of O/D traffic between the two countries. So Qantas leaves the market for nothing - and LH/SQ/CX will be happy for reduced capacity and competition.

Again Qantas and Emirates make the same error so many companies made: You cannot buy or sell customers. You have to win them back every day. Less than half of those who take the Qantas 744 now will go via DXB.


User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7821 times:

Speaking of time slots would BA sacrifice any of their slots and hand it over to QF...?

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4480 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7710 times:

Quoting Brad330 (Reply 9):
QF still own another early morning arrival slot and a lunchtime slot, as well as a lunchtime departure slot and late evening slot

Those two slot pairs are currently on lease to BA. Whenever they are returned to QF, expect QF/EK to use them for additional DXB LHR services, most likely to be operated by EK.

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
EK cannot fly one seat more from Germany to Dubai due to this code share - they are limited by the amount of O/D traffic between the two countries. So Qantas leaves the market for nothing - and LH/SQ/CX will be happy for reduced capacity and competition.

EK can add lots of additional seats to the Germany market. Although the airline is restricted to its current 4 gateways, it can add as many services as it wants. I would expect one of the FRA service to be upgauged to A388 fairly quickly now. I could also see a third daily MUC flight, to be positioned in the 3 am departure hub from DXB, thereby offering connectivity to the QF operate SYD and MEL originating services.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7579 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 8):

Could the two airlines not swap slot times to suit whatever timings worked best for both airlines? Having 7 (and ultimately 9) pairs of slots throughout the day gives them a great deal of flexibility...


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 14, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7530 times:
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Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
I would expect one of the FRA service to be upgauged to A388 fairly quickly now. I could also see a third daily MUC flight, to be positioned in the 3 am departure hub from DXB, thereby offering connectivity to the QF operate SYD and MEL originating services.

As always, thank you for your analysis. I would agree with this. The A388 should be filled easily to FRA.

What opportunities do you see for QF to augment EK's European network? Could they use their German rights to open STR and BER? Perhaps with A330s? What limits would there be for QF to add CDG?

I also wonder what additional European cities might be possible with the additional feed.

The EK/QF tie up is exciting!   

Quoting Burkhard (Reply 10):
I can imagine SQ and LH to be the real winners of this. EK cannot fly one seat more from Germany to Dubai due to this code share

As noted, EK has the right for more flights to FRA, MUC, DUS, and HAM. The 'pinch points' are CDG, VIE(?), and possibly one or two others I've forgotten. But QF has latent rights, many limited to feeding SE Asia destinations... but this could be a real win-win for the two partners.

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlineEK413 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 4683 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 7447 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
Could they use their German rights to open STR and BER? Perhaps with A330s? What limits would there be for QF to add CDG?

The EK/QF tie up is exciting!

Personally I believe the German network could become interesting as to which destination QF will serve once the B787 is introduced... Yes FRA was a money loser but that was before the tie up with EK... QF could introduce services to BER but then again would AB provide any feed considering they a partially owned by EY... Interesting times ahead and I am excited about it!

In reference to the limits QF have to CDG from memory they have rights to operate 4 flights a week and to make the route profitable there was a request for daily services which was knocked back and therefore QF withdrew its troops...

The QF / EK tie up continues to open up a new can of worms with an enormous amount of opportunity for both the carriers...

By the way this is off topic but anyone know why my Ipad continues to log me out of Airliner.net...??? It's frustrating having to log-in to my account every time I want to submit a reply or question...

EK413



Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4480 posts, RR: 72
Reply 16, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7264 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
What opportunities do you see for QF to augment EK's European network? Could they use their German rights to open STR and BER? Perhaps with A330s? What limits would there be for QF to add CDG?

I also wonder what additional European cities might be possible with the additional feed.

I can see QF fly where EK is restricted. France is restricted for EK, but then again QF has a meager 3 weekly rights there. They may be put to some use though. Then there is of course Germany, with Berlin being the obvious candidate for QF operated DXB service. I have my doubts abouy STR. QR has not performed well there so far.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
The EK/QF tie up is exciting!

It could get much more exciting still. EK has a couple of times publicly stated its desire to traverse the Pacific. I could see EK operate SYD SFO or SYD EZE service. The EK B77W seems more suitable for such services than anything QF could deploy.


User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7235 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 14):
What opportunities do you see for QF to augment EK's European network? Could they use their German rights to open STR and BER? Perhaps with A330s? What limits would there be for QF to add CDG?

I think the German regulators would definitely try to prevent that from happening. They've been very proactive with blocking EK additional access, and it doesn't seem likely they would let EK use this backdoor solution to undermine all their previous efforts.

I could imagine Germany forcing them to carve out any DXB-Germany services from the close alliance - no code sharing or cross-marketing allowed. Bad for the consumer, but we all know the aviation market is anything but laissez faire.


User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 18, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 7074 times:
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Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
Yes FRA was a money loser but that was before the tie up with EK...

   QF just didn't have enough feed for FRA going head to head with SQ on their SIN-FRA-JFK service.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 15):
The QF / EK tie up continues to open up a new can of worms with an enormous amount of opportunity for both the carriers...

   I think it will take a few years to see all of the opportunities.   

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
then again QF has a meager 3 weekly rights there. They may be put to some use though.

Oh... Less than I thought. But QF still has latent rights to exploit that really only became of value with the EK agreement.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 16):
with Berlin being the obvious candidate for QF operated DXB service. I have my doubts abouy STR. QR has not performed well there so far.

Interesting. I would have assumed STR to be a stronger market than BER. Maybe there is a reason I'm not an airline executive.  
Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
I think the German regulators would definitely try to prevent that from happening.

The issue is the nature of the rights granted QF. The passengers would be required to travel forward on a QF codeshare unless they stayed over 24 hours in Dubai. But QF has rights to the mid-east, SE-Asia, and Australia/NewZealand.

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
I could imagine Germany forcing them to carve out any DXB-Germany services from the close alliance - no code sharing or cross-marketing allowed.

How? This is a bilateral not a unilateral decision. QF already has the legal right to feed code shares to certain geographic areas. Think back to when Dubai was a wayport for jets with less range than today's. The only way to travel was a bunch of hops on multiple airlines. The bilaterals are still written that way.

Now what, per my interpretation, QF couldn't do is feed EK outside of the areas mentioned. e.g., no China or Japan. I'll have to re-read to see if Africa is allowed (that would make a big difference).

EK has found a way to (partially) thumb their nose at the German regulators.

Quoting EK413 (Reply 11):
Speaking of time slots would BA sacrifice any of their slots and hand it over to QF...?

In a word,   . However, there are two leased slot pairs that will eventually return to QF. Does anyone know when? The further into the future those slot pairs revert to QF, the more likely I think QF will utilize them.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 13):
Could the two airlines not swap slot times to suit whatever timings worked best for both airlines? Having 7 (and ultimately 9) pairs of slots throughout the day gives them a great deal of flexibility...

That it does... How is the gate availability?

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
User currently offlinemogandoCI From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6913 times:

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 18):
How? This is a bilateral not a unilateral decision. QF already has the legal right to feed code shares to certain geographic areas. Think back to when Dubai was a wayport for jets with less range than today's. The only way to travel was a bunch of hops on multiple airlines. The bilaterals are still written that way.

The difference is that QF and EK are seeking regulatory approval for this partnership (as per their press release), so this is no longer governed by a straight-up bilateral, and I think German regulators have a right to say something if QF-EK wants to include German services into the partnership.

Germany is probably okay if it's simply QF adding their code to existing EK services, but if they're attempting QF-metal on DXB-Germany and add EK code-share on it, I'm not so sure.


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Greece, joined Sep 2000, 4480 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6860 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
I could imagine Germany forcing them to carve out any DXB-Germany services from the close alliance

As long as there is no EK code on the QF operated DXB - Germany - DXB services, I do not see what the German government could do about that. EK could allow QF coded and operated DXB BER or BER DXB sectors on its tickets at the same fare conditions it would subject to its FRA, MUC, DUS and HAM passengers. That would be an interline arrangement, and it is hard to see how there could be regulatory objections to such as deal, seeing as how EK currently has such deals even with the likes of LH.


User currently offlineqf002 From Australia, joined Jul 2011, 2887 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6706 times:

Sorry to ruin the Germany party here -- I've just checked the billateral, and Australian carriers can only fly into FRA (via pretty much anywhere in Asia/ME) unless the treaty is renegotiated.

It's also worth noting that either government can cancel the agreement at any time (with a year's notice) -- I agree with the sentiment that the German government would do whatever it can to stop EK using QF to access more capacity.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2462 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 17):
I think the German regulators would definitely try to prevent that from happening. They've been very proactive with blocking EK additional access, and it doesn't seem likely they would let EK use this backdoor solution to undermine all their previous efforts.

Well done for the Germans... Now thanks to QF, EK will evcentually start the 6th and 7th daily flights to LHR. At the end of the day, the only winner is EK.



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineRyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 4691 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 6019 times:

Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
Sorry to ruin the Germany party here -- I've just checked the billateral, and Australian carriers can only fly into FRA

Your absolutely right, well I guess that's that then.

For the record QF can fly form FRA to practically anywhere (including NL and UK) but only Frankfurt.

Cue EK seeking to have one of UAE's four designated airports changed from FRA to BER  

Link to the treaty for those interested: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1959/2.html



Worked Hard, Flew Right
User currently offlinelightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12420 posts, RR: 100
Reply 24, posted (1 year 7 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 5997 times:
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Quoting mogandoCI (Reply 19):
The difference is that QF and EK are seeking regulatory approval for this partnership

I believe that is Australian regulatory approval as EK will carry Australian passengers under a QF code-share.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 20):
As long as there is no EK code on the QF operated DXB - Germany - DXB services, I do not see what the German government could do about that.

   But as noted by qf002, the German-Australia Air Service rights bilateral seems to be very restrictive.  
Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
Sorry to ruin the Germany party here -- I've just checked the billateral, and Australian carriers can only fly into FRA (via pretty much anywhere in Asia/ME) unless the treaty is renegotiated.

From:
http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/avi...tion/international/agreements.aspx
We go to:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/dfat/treaties/1959/2.html

But the above has been amended, but still it has:

Where we find:II. Route to be operated by an airline designated by the Commonwealth of Australia:

From Australia, via points in Indonesia, Singapore or Malaya, Thailand, Burma or Ceylon, India, Pakistan, Middle East, South and South-East Europe to Frankfurt/M. and beyond to the Netherlands and/or to the United Kingdom, in both directions."
Fro the Australian rights.

Now the latest amendment:
http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/do...egis/cth/num_act/iascaa1994476.txt

That's a bummer. You seem to be correct. The small type is important. I found nothing extending beyond Frankfurt in the amendments

But if held to the limit, LH is limited to Darwin and Sydney! So if LH protests, this impacts their code sharing with SQ...   

Oh well, QF still has other latent rights.

Quoting qf002 (Reply 21):
It's also worth noting that either government can cancel the agreement at any time (with a year's notice) -

   But that can effect more than just air service rights. Some require less time. Does LH wish to loose the rights to code share with SQ? Are there other treaties tied to the air service rights? (That is normally the case.)

Lightsaber



I've posted how many times?!?
25 Post contains images EK413 : I used the wrong term as I was referring to the 2 leased slots perhaps BA could swap these and hand over to QF a lunchtime slot in return... Well thi
26 Lufthansa : Yes and No. I go to CPH about once a year to catch up with some mates. Normally that means connecting in FRA or HEL. So, if im with QF it means FRA t
27 RyanairGuru : No, CASA is committed to ETOPS180 (for reasons best know to them and no one else). As such flying a twin between Australia and South America isn't go
28 Lufthansa : While it does make it less likely... we can find out how badly EK wants BER. It may be still in there interest to Co-operate given EK's presence and
29 winglets747 : I recall this too, but the register of available capacity says re Germany: How do we reconcile all of this?
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