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RFD/TOL Discuss SW Florida Service  
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Looks like new service to RFD & TOL to either PGD or RSW is in the works.

Started with a post on the 7th by RFD Director on Facebook...
http://www.facebook.com/FlyRFD

Quote:
Hello Facebook! We just wanted to update you on our search for Ft. Myers Area service. It has been a productive week and we are still very hopeful to have an announcement regarding service starting in mid-December. There is still a lot of work to do but we wanted to pass along that we remain very focused on this service.

Mike Dunn
RFD Director

Last night Toledo Port Authority called a special meeting for today that is now on going.

http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...lorida-flights-on-port-agenda.html

Discussion on the FlyTOL facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/flytoledo

Rumors were abound months ago when Direct Air caved on who would step in to replace them this year. G4's travel bus will be in Toledo next week. The bus was in AVL today it appears and just announced new service to FLL from there.

[Edited 2012-09-11 07:41:31]

12 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2025 posts, RR: 13
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1910 times:

According to the Blade...they have contracted with Aviation Advantage, Inc. to manage and guarantee air service from Toledo to Fort Myers International....Hum... Does anyone know these guys?

Aviation Advantage website: http://www.aviationadvantage.com/

Do they have any affiliation with Aerodynamics, Inc.? I know ADI is doing flying MBL - MDW now... http://www.flyadi.com/

I don't know about this yet....


User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1873 times:

Blade story: http://www.toledoblade.com/local/201...ge-Toledo-Florida-air-service.html

Quote:
Port officials expect flights between Toledo Express Airport and Southwest Florida International Airport to begin shortly before Christmas and continue through mid-April. Flight schedules, aircraft type, and airline are expected to be announced within two weeks.

This lines up with the RFD timeline, so I'm guessing same company is handling both cities. Also points out service is to RSW, so that may rule out G4 for this.


User currently offlinekrsw757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 112 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1832 times:

I know RFD had a Vision 767 running twice a week into RSW when Directair shut down.

User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2025 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1822 times:

RFD paid Vision to run the flights...it appears (if Wiki is correct) this is the old Southern Skyways and the top brass is all from Vacation Express...

http://www.aviationadvantage.com/company/team.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Skyways

www.southernskyways.com ----> http://www.tripsaver.com/

Gotta say, not really for this again....Why not just pay F9 or G4 to run the route with much better reputation


User currently offlineYNGguins From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 512 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

It isn't Allegiant, I know that much.


I am PROUD to live in the greatest country on earth: The United States of America!
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1802 times:

Quoting YNGguins (Reply 5):
It isn't Allegiant, I know that much.

I think we got that figured out now. LOL Since this is going to RSW and not PGD.


User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3304 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1772 times:

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 4):
Why not just pay F9 or G4 to run the route with much better reputation

Because they can't fly cheap enough. It's that simple. These virtual airlines get aircraft operators to bid against each other and fly for the lowest possible cost. Another scheduled charter to Florida, huh? Hopefully someone will have a better handle on the escrow account this time.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7540 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1667 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Thread starter):

Looks like new service to RFD & TOL to either PGD or RSW is in the works.

Why not, it's not like this stuff keeps failing, over and over again.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 1):
According to the Blade...they have contracted with Aviation Advantage, Inc. to manage and guarantee air service from Toledo to Fort Myers International....Hum... Does anyone know these guys?

My past experience is that they start taking bookings and then they attempt to shop the bookings to a carrier to operate the flight on their own. The airport then pays them a finders fee. If they cannot find another operator, they sub-contract out to an operator like Miami Air to run the flights. There have been a few cases where they have found an operator to take over the flights, but in most of the cases I am familiar with they have not and the charters are short-lived and then cancelled. I'm not a big fan of that business model. OTOH, every deal is different, so this might not be some plan as they have tried in other places.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3811 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1650 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 7):
Another scheduled charter to Florida, huh? Hopefully someone will have a better handle on the escrow account this time.

I thought that TOL/RFD-PGD would be perfect routes for G4. I'm surprised that RFD will go into public charters on this route instead of G4 given that RFD is one of G4's most successful cities. As for TOL, their struggles and close proximity to DTW (with NK) make it harder to convince airlines to serve TOL.

That said, if G4 wants to add PGD from anywhere in Chicagoland and the public charters on RFD-RSW start, GYY might work. Even though it's on a different side of the area, there is still a huge amount of people going to Fort Myers from there.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 4):
it appears (if Wiki is correct) this is the old Southern Skyways and the top brass is all from Vacation Express...

Given how RFD got burned by Southern Skyways with their short-lived RFD-DEN/DTW service, I'm (again) very surprised that they are giving that management team a second chance.

Quoting flyinryan99 (Reply 4):
Gotta say, not really for this again....Why not just pay F9 or G4 to run the route with much better reputation

FWA's former ASD did consider jumping on the Direct Air bandwagon to get service to PGD, as he once told me that 10% of FL's IND-RSW traffic came from the FWA catchment area. But he felt that public charters in general had too much risk for FWA. Instead, he held out for market-proven G4 to launch PGD from FWA, which happened shortly after the collapse of Direct Air.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
Why not, it's not like this stuff keeps failing, over and over again.

RFD and TOL to SW Florida have both done pretty well for the last few years. So the routes themselves are good, it is just that crap operators get brought in to do them instead of someone like G4.

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
My past experience is that they start taking bookings and then they attempt to shop the bookings to a carrier to operate the flight on their own. The airport then pays them a finders fee. If they cannot find another operator, they sub-contract out to an operator like Miami Air to run the flights. There have been a few cases where they have found an operator to take over the flights, but in most of the cases I am familiar with they have not and the charters are short-lived and then cancelled. I'm not a big fan of that business model. OTOH, every deal is different, so this might not be some plan as they have tried in other places.

Appears to be exactly the case here. New story in the Toledo Blade today had them saying essentially that. Also that they are working with other airports (RFD is obviously one) on securing this. The one thing that was pointed out is that the Toledo Port Authority is financially responsible now for ensuring the flights operate from Mid Dec to Mid April.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
I thought that TOL/RFD-PGD would be perfect routes for G4. I'm surprised that RFD will go into public charters on this route instead of G4 given that RFD is one of G4's most successful cities. As for TOL, their struggles and close proximity to DTW (with NK) make it harder to convince airlines to serve TOL.

G4 had been rumored for months to take over, but I'm not sure if fleet restrictions are the reason why they can't in these longer flights. Not that the planes can't make it, but that they just don't have enough to go around. I think G4 has a good handle on how to deal with NK in DTW out of TOL, otherwise they wouldn't be going into LAN as well now.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 9):
FWA's former ASD did consider jumping on the Direct Air bandwagon to get service to PGD, as he once told me that 10% of FL's IND-RSW traffic came from the FWA catchment area. But he felt that public charters in general had too much risk for FWA. Instead, he held out for market-proven G4 to launch PGD from FWA, which happened shortly after the collapse of Direct Air.

That would be ideal for everyone, but perhaps there are reasons why G4 can't do it this season. If the markets are proven and have generated plenty of traffic for the last 3-4 years, might as well secure someone to fly it. Though I think we all would prefer something other than the public charter model.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3811 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
That would be ideal for everyone, but perhaps there are reasons why G4 can't do it this season.

IIRC, G4 bases only one plane at PGD. They have stopped adding Mad Dogs to the fleet, and won't be adding additional planes until early next year when the first A319s arrive. The reason why you are seeing G4 add more service at other destinations (SFB and AZA in particular) is because these bases have several planes with low utilization. It also may be the reason why G4 isn't launching PGD from TOL and RFD.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
I think G4 has a good handle on how to deal with NK in DTW out of TOL, otherwise they wouldn't be going into LAN as well now.


  

LAN's leakage to DTW is similar to (but not as strong as) DTW's.

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 10):
If the markets are proven and have generated plenty of traffic for the last 3-4 years, might as well secure someone to fly it.

True, but one potential problem is if too many fly-by-night operators come into an airport one after another, it can give the airport a bad reputation in the business or among travelers. And this often happens even if the flights performed well at that airport. GYY (now served by G4 to SFB) is a classical case study of this problem: it was consistently one of the top-performing cities for the public charters that served it, but the collapse of the public charters hurt GYY's overall image.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4611 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1346 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
IIRC, G4 bases only one plane at PGD. They have stopped adding Mad Dogs to the fleet, and won't be adding additional planes until early next year when the first A319s arrive. The reason why you are seeing G4 add more service at other destinations (SFB and AZA in particular) is because these bases have several planes with low utilization. It also may be the reason why G4 isn't launching PGD from TOL and RFD.

Yeah that's exactly what I was getting at.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 11):
True, but one potential problem is if too many fly-by-night operators come into an airport one after another, it can give the airport a bad reputation in the business or among travelers. And this often happens even if the flights performed well at that airport. GYY (now served by G4 to SFB) is a classical case study of this problem: it was consistently one of the top-performing cities for the public charters that served it, but the collapse of the public charters hurt GYY's overall image.

Completely agree. We should have more details in a couple weeks on who exactly is doing the flying and how this will be marketed.


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