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Frontier/Republic Thread Part 38  
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 19277 times:

The previous thread has become quite long and difficult to manage for some users. Please feel free to add your contributions to the new thread.

Part 37 can be found here: New Frontier/Republic Thread Part 37


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
283 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 19110 times:
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Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com. This article explains it:

http://www.4-traders.com/REPUBLIC-AI...yFrontier-com-as-New-URL-15190769/

"Frontier Airlines today unveiled FlyFrontier.com as the airline's new website address. The announcement comes as the Denver-based carrier continues to improve and further differentiate the products offered through its website, making FlyFrontier.com the best place to book Frontier travel for more choice, more perks and more value."

And this article talks about the need to push traffic away from the third party travel sites to Frontier's own website - it saves Frontier money and it is the place to book Classic/Classic Plus - which brings in more money::

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busine...-11e1-98c6-ec0a0a93f8eb_story.html

"Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in. And they’ll pay more in fees while earning half as many frequent flier miles.

“Particularly for families, it provides an incentive to book directly,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, commercial. “There is no logical reason for our customers to want to book anywhere else."


I think "penalize" is a bit strong - LOL - true, perhaps, but strong.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 19038 times:

Quote:
Frontier Airlines today unveiled FlyFrontier.com

They did a poll on there social media a while back... somehow I knew it would lead to this.

I will tell you this, I don't like how they replaced their logo with flyfrontier.com on their website.

[Edited 2012-09-12 03:59:46]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 11
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18982 times:

It looks like they've also lowered their award flying tiers to 10k miles o/w and 20k roundtrip, but removed the free bags:

http://www.flyfrontier.com/frequent-flyers/use-your-miles/redeem-miles


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 18955 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 2):
I don't like how they replaced their logo with flyfrontier.com on their website.

A pattern is emerging across aviation. Across the last couple of years I've noticed more airports website URL which have migrated to the flyxxxxxx.com format including BNA and PHF. BNA is www.flynashville.com and PHF is flynewportnews.com or something close. I'm sure there are many others.

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
"Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in.

Lets hope F9 has thought about their military/government travels who are generally required to book through a government contracted travel agent. I suppose that sect of fliers will be exempt and will be given seat assignments. DEN-DCA is a heavily flown route I hate to see F9 loose market share to WN (when that service is established) as F9 has four daily flights to the nations capital.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25336 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18906 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
“There is no logical reason for our customers to want to book anywhere else."

   
How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?

Who knows - maybe with new ULCC model, and thinned out schedule such set of clients are no longer much of a focus for F9, but its an odd thing to say imo.

Even SWA knows this - and provides support and corporate tools via the SWABIZ website and has GDS links as it realizes a decent sized subset of travelers cannot book directly.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18903 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 4):
Lets hope F9 has thought about their military/government travels who are generally required to book through a government contracted travel agent. I

if the passenger is booked in "Y" class on Frontier , seats assignmets will still be available and the "YCA" government fares should then qualify

you can also negotiate in contracts access to preferred seats..we have such an agreement with American. Dont know if Frontier has that capability or know -how?!


User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 18889 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?

Who knows - maybe with new ULCC model, and thinned out schedule such set of clients are no longer much of a focus for F9, but its an odd thing to say imo.

Even SWA knows this - and provides support and corporate tools via the SWABIZ website and has GDS links as it realizes a decent sized subset of travelers cannot book directly.

Frontier alienated their business travelers a long time ago when they reduced frequencies on almost every route, and went to the less than daily model. A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 18838 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 7):
A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.

Outside of any mandatory use contracts ; on business I would generally book with a carrier who offered multiple frequencies. With that said I have flown WN once daily SEA-BNA non-stop on many occasions because I hate airport waiting and potential delays add to that flying south (DFW or IAH) to go north or vice versa.

For those on government business the civil service work rules allows for less frequent flight schedules under the standard workday rule which states a civil service employee may, but does not have to travel outside of their standard workday be it eight , ten or twelve hours. They must weigh this against the governments prudent person rule a.k.a. stewardship of funds rule which states government travelers assigned to the Executive branch must show prudence and travel is if they were paying for it themselves. This usually means courtesy hotel shuttles vice taxi cabs. As a prior travel manager and Authorized Certifying Officer I've have disallowed what I determined was fluff.

On leisure travel F9 infrequent schedule in most markets is not a show stopper.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3138 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 18725 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 8):
On leisure travel F9 infrequent schedule in most markets is not a show stopper.

I don't know how many leisure flyers consider this, if they had more choices per day, a schedule snafu even for a leisure traveler would be better, and I think about these things, and am warry about booking a flight on a once/day (or less) airline like F9 or Allegiant (or similar). If I'm flying my family back and forth on a holiday -- say Christmas season -- and something happens that scratches the one daily flight there or (worse) back. Or maybe it isn't even daily. As I understand it, a weather situation would be "act of God", F9 wouldn't be obligated to rebook on another airline, would rebook on themselves, but options would be much less. That said, rebooking out of a hub with a much larger airline (like UA or AA) is near impossible, too, as I've experienced DEN or EWR during a storm shutdown. Not much difference. But what about a mechanical? Would F9 willingly rebook on another airline if they have no choice that day, or even the next day?

-Rampart


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18688 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?

I dont't think he is talking to them. Frontier is a leisure airline. The places on the route map that have the most destinations (outside of DEN) are MCO, CUN and PUJ.

It's never been high frequency (to the non-leisure destinations) and every time it has tried that, it hasn't worked.

It was the problem at MKE and BB understood that and thought he could change it - and he was wrong.

Frontier is removing itself from the fray and embracing what it always was, at heart, and over the course of the next few weeks, I expect it to become even more obvious.

Bottom feeding? Sure. Not exactly like Allegiant and Spirit, but close.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18659 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 2):
I don't like how they replaced their logo with flyfrontier.com on their website.

Holy crap! That's one ugly website header! And it took awhile for the entire site to load up. Swell.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25336 posts, RR: 49
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 18618 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
I dont't think he is talking to them. Frontier is a leisure airline.

Yes fair enough.

I guess with F9 also showing the Delta exit door to Early Return members, the business segment is not something F9 is looking to foster. Yet another tactical change as F9 continues to evolve.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 18608 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
I guess with F9 also showing the Delta exit door to Early Return members, the business segment is not something F9 is looking to foster. Yet another tactical change as F9 continues to evolve.

MKE again.

MKE showed the essential schizophrenia of Frontier trying to be both. Nor do I think it is just the Early Returns thing - I'd love to know what was said between Frontier and Delta and US about MKE (and MCI) and DCA and E190's and a bunch of other stuff.

And what Frontier got in return, assuming it got something.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 18509 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com.

This seems a bit of going back to the future. They've had flyfrontier.com for years and years in addition to frontierairlines.com.

Quoting mariner (Reply 10):
Frontier is removing itself from the fray and embracing what it always was, at heart, and over the course of the next few weeks, I expect it to become even more obvious.

I wouldn't say that Frontier was always a leisure airline; back in the day, the company used to boast of the number of corporate contracts it had signed. They were always focused on price-sensitive passengers -- this is true -- but this focus wasn't limited to leisure travel.


User currently offlinemikefrommke From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 351 posts, RR: 11
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 18494 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 13):
And what Frontier got in return, assuming it got something.

I would bet part of the deal was relieving Frontier of the some of the lease payments in MKE.


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 18427 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 9):


My experience and has happened twice across twenty or so years is the airline would rebook you on another carrier. I've never had it happen on F9 thus I don't know their policy. I would think all airline contracts of carriage don't vary that much as most of it is driven by law. What the carrier has to do.

We got stuck in ORD once on a one-stop with no change of aircraft for snow on a SEA-DCA flight. After two long days in O'Hare we finally got back in the air. When I got back home I wrote AA and ask for reimbursement for my hotel. They paid me. Did they have to; I don't know. I can only assume they did because they could not meet their contract of carriage requirement which involved getting me from point A to B without minimal delay.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 18371 times:
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Quoting ScottB (Reply 14):
I wouldn't say that Frontier was always a leisure airline; back in the day, the company used to boast of the number of corporate contracts it had signed. They were always focused on price-sensitive passengers -- this is true -- but this focus wasn't limited to leisure travel.

Um - I think I said that there were several attempts to be something other, as in my comments on frequency.

And surely BB believed it when he explained the dichotomy between Frontier and Midwest, with which I agree.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-12 18:34:03]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 18334 times:

On a side note, Yesterday the DOT awarded Skywest the EAS contract for Iron Mountain, Brainard, International Falls, and Rhinelander. Skywest won't flake out of RHI like ZK did, so F9 should be able to finally discontinue MKE-RHI by early next year.

User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 18214 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
"Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in. And they’ll pay more in fees while earning half as many frequent flier miles.

Here's a little more from F9 web URL http://www.flyfrontier.com/plan-book...20912_a&utm_campaign=buyonfrontier If you click on the 'learn more" tab it will populate a flow chart of the various options



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18030 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
"Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline.
Quoting azstar (Reply 7):
Frontier alienated their business travelers a long time ago when they reduced frequencies on almost every route, and went to the less than daily model. A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.

Penalize customers and make it more expensive to buy your product. Sure. That makes sense. If they want to stay competitive, don't penalize people who don't book flights through their website. Give fliers discounts who DO book directly through their website. I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18032 times:
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As I said in the previous thread, SBA is getting the A319 (1 x daily) in January and it really scratches my itch.

I've always liked SBA as a destination for Frontier - good summer leisure and, presumably, some business traffic. It's tough to think that winter sustains on leisure and VFR.

Plus the airport has just spent all that money on the new terminal and at least they're getting one mainline aircraft out of it.  

BUT I was concerned to see that United is only flying 1 x daily CRJ DEN-SBA this winter. Can't swear to it, but I thought that United has always flown 2 x daily, even in winter.

So the question is, can SBA sustain the A319 in winter? I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.

I'm less optimistic about the A319 at PVU and I assume it is only a matter of time before DSM comes under assault from the airline mentioned above. I can't see that DSM could sustain three airlines, just as I struggle to think that SDF can.

Or, even if any of these can sustain three airlines - is it worth it? Frontier could probably get the loads, but yield would probably go gurgling down the dunny.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineCarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 162 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 18015 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20):
Penalize customers and make it more expensive to buy your product. Sure. That makes sense. If they want to stay competitive, don't penalize people who don't book flights through their website. Give fliers discounts who DO book directly through their website. I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...

But why can't someone look on Kayak or Expedia etc to find the lowest fare, then go directly to the website of that carrier, whether it be UA or F9 etc, and purchase the ticket with the benefits of booking direct on the website?

What if the news had made the article title "Frontier Rewards Passengers for booking on their site" Really is the same message, just worded in a more positive way. No change really.

[Edited 2012-09-13 15:23:26]

User currently offlineNWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 17930 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5):
How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?

This is already the case with all airlines that charge for so called 'premium' seats anyway. We are just advising each corporate client one by one to get used to getting their seats from the airlines website direct


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 17913 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20):
I use Kayak to find the lowest fares

I realize we all have our favorite research and booking engines. Why not use something like this http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ and then call the airline.

You cannot book travel on the ITA software but it will provide almost everything you ever wanted to know about a particular flight.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17997 times:
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Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20):
Penalize customers and make it more expensive to buy your product. Sure. That makes sense.

How is it "more expensive" to buy the product?

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20):
I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...

You can still book through Kayak, it's just that you won't get all the goodies. But then - you never could.

Still, based on all your previous posts, I am slightly astonished that you would even consider flying Frontier at all - so I guess that's a win.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-13 17:32:09]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineWALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 17952 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
So the question is, can SBA sustain the A319 in winter? I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.

Since the landing pattern for SBA passes right by my window, I look forward to the A319. As for sustainability in winter, who knows? Santa Barbara is definitely warmer in the winter than the Midwest and Northeast so it could be possible that winter travelers looking for climates that do not include snow could fill the A319. However, I doubt there will be enough demand in that scenario beyond what currently exists. I suppose if it is one A319 versus two ERJ-190s, it might work.

As for LAS, America West, and then US Airways flew, SBA-LAS when there was still a hub there and about three or four years ago, Allegiant flew 2X with pretty high load factors, but apparently not enough to sustain it. Flights to LAS for Santa Barbara County currently fly out of Santa Maria (SMX) via Allegiant and it will be adding Hawaii service in November.

Since it is my local airport, I wish SBA great success. As for You-Know-Who Airlines, I think local demand will have to increase several fold before they even glance this way.



In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3138 posts, RR: 6
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 18092 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20):
I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...

Was F9 ever a consideration for you, Strawman... er, I mean, IllinoisMan?
More generally, do you always limit yourself to just one portal? I sometimes use Kayak and ITA, sometimes Orbitz, but I can't tell you the last time I actually bought something from a 3rd party travel website. I always end up browsing the home websites of the airlines, and find it useful to buy from them. Isn't that sensible?

-Rampart


User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 17966 times:

Does anyone know if F9 markets/sells gift cards in retail merchant locations such as Fred Meyers, Publics, Kroger and or King Sooper (A Colorado grocery merchant) etc? I don't recall seeing them locally.

I can buy WN gift cards in $50, $100.00 and $200.00 denominations at my local grocery store. Where extra perks enter the equation several times a year the merchant offers 4x fuel points per dollar in gift card purchases which is redeemed at the gas pumps for up to a $2 off per gallon per fill-up up to 100 gallons. i.e. multiple vehicles.

I recently purchased $400.00 in WN gift cards X4 which got me 1600 points or $1.60 off per gallon of gas which can be negotiated in any increment from $.10 to the entire $1.60 off per gallon WN web URL allows you to use four cards to purchase tickets per itinerary.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25336 posts, RR: 49
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 17784 times:

Santa Barbara on the 319 during the winter will be quite interesting.

The market is an extremely seasonal one with enplanements over the winter only about 50% of the summer peak.

From what I can tell United still keeps its 2x on the CRJ for the winter this year. I don't see a difference in GDS looking until April.

Btw - anyone know who the ground handler at SBA is these days?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17717 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
I'm less optimistic about the A319 at PVU

As I suspected, PVU goes in January:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...2-16cb-5c93-83c8-141268b74c86.html

"Frontier Airlines to stop Provo flights:

They blame the fleet reduction and it is unclear whether it is seasonal or not.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
From what I can tell United still keeps its 2x on the CRJ for the winter this year. I don't see a difference in GDS looking until April.

Thanks. I don't have access to GDS.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekkephart13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17700 times:

CAK, PHL and DAY i heard is closing 1/6 as well.

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17688 times:
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Quoting kkephart13 (Reply 31):

CAK, PHL and DAY i heard is closing 1/6 as well.

CAK I believe yes, but I hadn't heard DAY. I understood PHL goes seasonal.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17655 times:

Quote:
CAK I believe yes, but I hadn't heard DAY.

Both just got WN service to DEN...



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 17685 times:

"Curtis added that even Frontier executives had never seen the reception and speed of growth like in Provo. "We've averaged 75 percent full or more every day from the first day even in the low winter months," Curtis said. "We were told 65 percent was the critical line to surpass in the first year."

"As recent as a month ago, Frontier had told the city it would be flying its Airbus jet into Provo starting next year. An Airbus holds approximately 130 passengers compared to the Embraer-190s which held 99 passengers. "They even sent people here to expand the terminal and for the first time started doing their OWN marketing and put up billboards," Curtis said."

The airbuses im not sure would have been too large but they dont want to do it clearly its the new frontier style. I think they want less DEN-daily and connecting flight passengers and want more MCO allegiant style operation o&d so why spend the time on Provo when its mostly connecting passengers..........just my guess of what direction this airline is headed to be allegiant wannabe.





"Cabanilla said she would like to have flights from Provo to California. She is not alone. According to Gleason and Curtis, in unscientific surveys Southern California routes seem to be the favorite choice of people in the area."

I think alot of us have said this for a while. Provo to LAX, SNA or LGB would do great. I think united could find it to be an amazing CRJ200/700 market. Jetblue i think could pull off a 320 but they have no extra LGB slots.

I think united is the best option for provo overall and its really the market(socal) that the area would use. There are so many so cal transplants in that area and alot of BYU students from that area i have no doubt it would do great. plus onward connections to hawaii from lax that route would do excellent for united to lax. There was certainly a demand to denver but nothing like i think they would see to so cal. I hope they are reaching out to skywest and united its the natural fit. If they get it started by ski season you would have some very happy so cal people also sundance ski resort close to provo really caters to hollywood types and its a pretty easy trip to park city or sundance events near provo. I just dont know how delta will react if united starts to move in on provo


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6762 posts, RR: 32
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17626 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 34):
I think united is the best option for provo overall and its really the market(socal) that the area would use.

The problem with a United service to Southern California (and almost certainly LAX if it were to happen) would be pricing. United's pricing would almost undoubtedly have to be higher to cover the high costs of the CRJ they'd be likely to use. And with higher prices, I think you'd see most people driving to SLC for lower prices on more comfortable, mainline aircraft.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29):
Santa Barbara on the 319 during the winter will be quite interesting.

I think 1x daily to SBA will be challenging from a schedule standpoint with BUR & LAX a couple of hours away.


User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17561 times:

With losing 5 (and possible 10), E190s, cuts have to be made.

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 17557 times:

Quote:
With losing 5 (and possible 10), E190s, cuts have to be made.

I believe all 10 are now confirmed.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17550 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 33):
Quote:
CAK I believe yes, but I hadn't heard DAY.

Both just got WN service to DEN...

Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.

But I had not heard DAY - I have heard a couple of other cities.

Quoting ScottB (Reply 35):
I think 1x daily to SBA will be challenging from a schedule standpoint with BUR & LAX a couple of hours away.

IIRC, it was 1 x daily last winter, most days at least. That did okay.

I doubt SBA would support 2 x daily with the A319 in winter, so if it doesn't work at 1 x daily then SBA will either have to become seasonal or be dropped.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently onlinerj777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 1841 posts, RR: 2
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17553 times:

How many E190's does F9 have left (even after the planned departures)? Does it look like they're trying to move to an all Airbus fleet again?

User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17523 times:

If the E90s are leaving the fleet, who will Republic be flying E90s for? I would love to see them at AA flying under the Eagle banner

User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25336 posts, RR: 49
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17507 times:

Provo-Denver was never the communities first choice.

As part of the SCASD grant, Provo first preference was a link to the LA Basin, Vegas or the Bay Area.
Bulk of demand is westward.

Also interesting I think to note, even F9 was not planning a E190 at PVU to begin with, put plans called for twice daily E145s. Probably a more marketable option, but as we know fleet composition and E145 use change at Republic.

Wonder how much of the $500,000 grant is left for Provo to try to re attract someone with?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17494 times:

Quote:
How many E190's does F9 have left (even after the planned departures)? Does it look like they're trying to move to an all Airbus fleet again?

With the 10 retirements they will have 5. Yes I think they are going to all Airbus. What I don't know is why waste the money on Gogo on the e190 if they intend to retire them a few months later.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

I haven't heard anything on CAK, DAY, or PHL yet

User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 17467 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 43):
I haven't heard anything on CAK, DAY, or PHL yet

There hasn't been a press release - I assume there will be one, but maybe not. I had heard five cities will go or go seasonal.

It isn't just the E190's leaving - there are some Airbus departures as well, and the first replacement A320 doesn't come in for a while yet.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-14 14:12:44]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 17381 times:

Quote:
There hasn't been a press release - I assume there will be one

Considering Provo is not out of the schedule yet, they are probably going to announce all cuts at once.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17276 times:

How does GRR do? I could see GRR going because WN is going in soon and they don't seem to compete with WN.


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17274 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 46):
How does GRR do? I could see GRR going because WN is going in soon and they don't seem to compete with WN.

It isn't on any list I've seen.

However, I'd be surprised - as in fall over in shock - if DEN-GRR could support two carriers.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 17230 times:

Provo is still bookable here (friday night) past that date in a 319 so like others said it could be announced in some other Denver based cuts of cities. I really think this cut has more to do with frontier focusing on MCO and trying to be a smaller allegiant copycat airline than provos performance. It seems like like they tried hard and the market has potential for a california service. I hope they can land something. I think people will pay a premium over the competative SLC market so united express really could be an option.

I bet we could see alot of the cuts fit back into the "Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver" thread. I just hope maybe this will open up some plane time for some more COS flights or more year round services?


User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17238 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 21):
I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.

SBA to LAS won't work for an Airbus. When I worked for OO in the mid 1990's, we flew the route with 19 seat Metros, and eventually the EMB 120. Loads were usually half full. I love SBA, and flew the route often. Maybe now it might work, but I just can't see them filling that many seats on that route.



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17210 times:
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Quoting F9animal (Reply 49):
SBA to LAS won't work for an Airbus. When I worked for OO in the mid 1990's, we flew the route with 19 seat Metros, and eventually the EMB 120. Loads were usually half full. I love SBA, and flew the route often. Maybe now it might work, but I just can't see them filling that many seats on that route.

You mau be right, F9Animal. But if they were not at least optimistic about it, it would be going this week-end.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineF9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5050 posts, RR: 28
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 17208 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 50):
You mau be right, F9Animal. But if they were not at least optimistic about it, it would be going this week-end.

mariner

I still wish F9 would get some C Series! The 190 is not a bad plane, and seems to do good for F9. I just lime the flexibility I guess. And the 190 has become my favorite ride!



I Am A Different Animal!!
User currently offlinen917me From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17259 times:

Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU acronym> .. JAN 6-7 2013

[Edited 2012-09-14 19:40:02]


[Edited 2012-09-14 19:41:19]

User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17231 times:

Quote:

Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU AND SDF.. JAN 6-7 2013

No big surprises. WN is doing DEN to SDF.

What I find funny is F9 was going to do SDF-DCA.

Do you have a source?

[Edited 2012-09-14 19:42:54]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17264 times:
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Quoting n917me (Reply 52):
Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU AND .. JAN 6-7 2013

Um - I don't think PHL is closing, just DEN-PHL is axed (I heard seasonally). As I understand it, PHL-CUN/PUJ remain.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17215 times:

Surprised at no DAY.


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinen917me From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17257 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 53):

Quote:

Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU AND SDF.. JAN 6-7 2013

No big surprises. WN is doing DEN to SDF.

What I find funny is F9 was
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 53):

Quote:

Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU AND SDF.. JAN 6-7 2013

No big surprises. WN is doing DEN to SDF.

What I find funny is F9 was

Our employee site

Mariner.. the site says discontinued service..n mention on charters


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17254 times:
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Quoting n917me (Reply 56):
Mariner.. the site says discontinued service..n mention on charters

DEN-PHL is discontinued. But PHL-CUN/PUJ is not just charter - it is also Frontier scheduled service. As I understand it, they are still flying, unless things have changed dramatically in the past three or four days.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinen917me From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 730 posts, RR: 1
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17217 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 57):
Frontier
Quoting mariner (Reply 57):
Frontier

True.. no mention in the memo.. just that they will.try to.find jobs within the company.for those employees affected.. hopefully PHL is good for CUN/PUJ.... PHL has a close spot in my heart..


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 17199 times:
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Quoting n917me (Reply 58):
True.. no mention in the memo.. just that they will.try to.find jobs within the company.for those employees affected.. hopefully PHL is good for CUN/PUJ.... PHL has a close spot in my heart..

Anything is possible, I suppose, but I would be extremely surprised if they cancelled PHL-CUN/PUJ.

Basically, Apple covers the cost of them and anything Frontier gets is gravy.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineIllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 17078 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 30):
As I suspected, PVU goes in January:

http://www.heraldextra.com/news/loca...2-16cb-5c93-83c8-141268b74c86.html

"Frontier Airlines to stop Provo flights"

As I wrote when this started, it won't last long! Bad choice for connections, many other issues and F9/RW has a track record of jumping in and out of markets very quickly. Nothing more than F9 throwing darts at a wall to see how long it sticks. This is the same airline that announced DRO-LAS and nixed it before it even started last month. Good luck to PVU but you're destined to be nothing more than a general aviation airport that supports the occasional diversion from SLC or a sports charter for BYU.

[Edited 2012-09-14 23:17:01]

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5107 posts, RR: 21
Reply 61, posted (2 years 21 hours ago) and read 17014 times:

So 2 markets east of DEN and 2 west of DEN get the axe. It concerns me a bit as the route map is already tilted towards the east out of DEN and I'm wondering exactly what those markets are going to connect to, just the obvious large markets west of DEN?

The WN avoidance routes seems a good strategy on the surface, but with nothing smaller than the 319 soon, I wonder if F9 can pull it off?   

Here's hoping they can.



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 62, posted (2 years 17 hours ago) and read 16898 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
I don't think PHL is closing, just DEN-PHL is axed

According to my airport distance calculator the distance between PHL and TTN is 35 statute miles (50 km) nixing PHL-DEN could be the precurser from DEN-TTN. PHL the last time I was there was dated and run down; to the point I do everything in my power to avoid it. I'd imagine TTN fees are also less than PHL.

[Edited 2012-09-15 07:39:47]


Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3138 posts, RR: 6
Reply 63, posted (2 years 17 hours ago) and read 16857 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 62):
According to my airport distance calculator the distance between PHL and TTN is 35 statute miles (50 km) nixing PHL-DEN could be the precurser from DEN-TTN. PHL the last time I was there was dated and run down; to the point I do everything in my power to avoid it. I'd imagine TTN fees are also less than PHL.

   This, or ABE, would be very interesting. I'd certainly look at it, as an alternate to EWR for me. But maybe the cuts just now have made enough room for the wave of additions a few weeks ago. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, any new additions may need to wait for other cuts, or new aircraft.

-Rampart


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 64, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 16806 times:

With SMF going I wouldn't be surprised if they left SNA as well. I could also see PHX and DAY going. If WN does GRR-DEN, I could see them leaving GRR too.


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 65, posted (2 years 15 hours ago) and read 16795 times:

Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 60):
As I wrote when this started, it won't last long! Bad choice for connections, many other issues and F9/RW has a track record of jumping in and out of markets very quickly. Nothing more than F9 throwing darts at a wall to see how long it sticks. This is the same airline that announced DRO-LAS and nixed it before it even started last month. Good luck to PVU but you're destined to be nothing more than a general aviation airport that supports the occasional diversion from SLC or a sports charter for BYU.

Provo stuck for a decent while. The great people there used the service quite well. Over the next 6-12 months, 16 aircraft are leaving the fleet. (10 E190s and 6 A319s). Next year they will get 6 A320s online, but my understanding is they are backloaded to the later part of 2013. As such, cuts have to be made. Provo, while it was doing decently well just could not be a priority.

It's a shame not every airline can survive flying ORD-JFK 22 times daily.   I give Frontier a lot of credit for these types of routes. Some work amazingly. SBA, PHF, BKG, and others. I don't know why this site seems so upset when frontier launches a route less than daily, or they fly to large cities less than 5 times a day, etc. Frontier is not Southwest, United, Delta or any of the others. When they try to be, they fail. Now, they are trying something else. If the Q3 numbers tell us anything, it might just be that it MAY be working. I don't know. Maybe as the fleet grows, Provo can return. I will say it seems to have lasted far longer than any of the naysayers claimed it would.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 66, posted (2 years 14 hours ago) and read 16758 times:

PVU started with E90, then went to Q400 for quite a while. Load factor wise, the Q was a better fit. Once those left the fleet, it was back to E90. Not surprised to see it go, but it seemed to do ok from a booking standpoint. Not sure what type of fares they were drawing.

DEN-SDF/SMF being cut are big disappointments and mildly surprising. DEN-PHL..not as much just considering the cost of fuel. DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 67, posted (2 years 13 hours ago) and read 16717 times:
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Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66):
DEN-SDF/SMF being cut are big disappointments and mildly surprising. DEN-PHL..not as much just considering the cost of fuel.

I agree about PHL - great in summer, fell off a cliff in winter - four carriers.

SDF - I said here that I struggle to believe it can support three carriers. I'd love to see 'em start DEN-LEX, 3 x weekly next summer.

SMF - was my only surprise, and quite a big one. Then a dickie bird told me that he wasn't surprised, given what has happened with airport costs and I remembered exactly that in a thread here a couple of weeks ago. High fuel and high airport costs are a destructive mix.

CAK? Well, I live in hope for CLE.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-15 12:33:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (2 years 12 hours ago) and read 16658 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
CAK? Well, I live in hope for C
[quote=FRNT787,reply=65]If the Q3 numbers tell us anything, it might just be that it MAY be working. I don't know. Maybe as the fleet grows, Provo can return. I will say it seems to have lasted far longer than any of the naysayers claimed it would

I certainly agree with you. I think Provo showed it has great potential and people want to use the airport. I think it has potential for a california flight. I think provo really has more to due with frontier loosing 16 planes than its own performance. Even if provo has potential it seems like they would rather use the plane in MCO or apple vacation route than more denver flying.

I dont think Q3 numbers will tell much. It has two of the busiest months of the year for travel and tons of people to fill planes. Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 are the numbers that i think are much more critical. With so many planes leaving i think we all should expect record load factors. It does seem like froniter is making big moves though less DEN, more MCO and less planes. Would be very interesting to sit in a board meeting of frontier or AA these days


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 69, posted (2 years 11 hours ago) and read 16629 times:
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Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
Then a dickie bird told me that he wasn't surprised, given what has happened with airport costs and I remembered exactly that in a thread here a couple of weeks ago. High fuel and high airport costs are a destructive mix.

I haven't really followed the SMF airport charges - I've been aware of them, is all. Provoked by my chum, I did a little checking and it makes alarming reading, and not just for Frontier, all because of the new billion dollar terminal.

This article doesn't give specific numbers for Frontier, but it does for Southwest and I assume they are comparative:

http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/articl...ing-1-billion-terminal-2328146.php

"Southwest Airlines, which accounts for 55 percent of all Sacramento flights, paid a fee of $6.05 per passenger in 2008, but is projected to pay $16.15 next year and $19.67 by 2013.

"It really does put tremendous pressure on our ability to be successful and maintain profitability in Sacramento," said Southwest spokesman Brad Hawkins.

The airlines and airport are negotiating lower fees. The money could be made up by spreading the increased cost to other users, including passengers."


I am sympathetic to the airport's desire to have a new terminal, but those costs seem very high.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 70, posted (2 years 10 hours ago) and read 16589 times:

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66):
DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.

If memory serves me CAK came about because CFO Tate was originally from the area. How times change some six months ago we were talking about CAK possibly becoming a focus city.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinekkephart13 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 71, posted (2 years 6 hours ago) and read 16450 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 70):
DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.

I heard from an employee at CAK, that the load factor in July and August for the CAK-DEN route, was 98%. That in those 2 months, they only had a TOTAL COMBINED open 45-50 seats.


User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1306 posts, RR: 17
Reply 72, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 16241 times:

A 98% LF in CAK tells me F9 feels the yields aren't there long term with WN now on the route. It's not like F9 can do anything more to boost the LF. There is nowhere to go but down. I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 73, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16203 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72):
A 98% LF in CAK tells me F9 feels the yields aren't there long term with WN now on the route

CLE and CAK are separated by 40 statute miles (56 km). I guess the CAK employees that choose to do so would be able to commute to CLE.

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72):
CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.

As of now WN does not offer CLE-DEN nonstop. It looks like everything on WN passes through MDW. There were two flights I saw which are one-stops with no change of aircraft i.e. CLE-MDW-DEN.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 16180 times:

Quote:

With SMF going I wouldn't be surprised if they left SNA as well. I could also see PHX and DAY going. If WN does GRR-DEN, I could see them leaving GRR too.

I add ATL to that list as well. I think ATL will be gone soon.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 75, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 16139 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72):
I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.

I didn't see any press release about this.

Now let's see if WN jumps in on DEN-CLE.


User currently offlineazstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 620 posts, RR: 0
Reply 76, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 16116 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 65):
I don't know why this site seems so upset when frontier launches a route less than daily, or they fly to large cities less than 5 times a day, etc.

Load factor is not the problem for Frontier. Their load factors have always been high. The problem is yield. Their infrequent schedules allow them to fill the planes only with the very lowest yields. Higher fare paying passengers tend to avoid airlines with infrequent schedules. There are only so many ways you can cut expenses. Fuel, airport rents, aircraft mortgages, handling services are all high costs. Interline ticket agreements, which Frontier has with several airlines, are also expensive. When your single daily, or weekly, flight is seriously delayed or cancelled you will pay the accommodating airline much more to transport your passenger than you received in fare. When a passenger starts off on another airline and transfers to Frontier, if the baggage is delayed, or lost, Frontier will pay damages, claims, and delivery costs also;again, frequently much higher than the fare received.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 77, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 16104 times:

Quoting azstar (Reply 76):

Whenever Frontier has gone for high frequency, they lose money. With this strategy, they are positioning themselves for the new reality at Denver. Southwest is going to keep expanding there. They dug their feet in and commited. For Frontier, If the 'conventional' type of operation does not work for them, why do it?

Much of what you raise are valid points. But that may just be the evil of how they have to operate to be profitable. Many of those less than daily routes turn out to be huge hits. And they grow.

There are many here that have spent the better part of 10 years telling how Frontier is doomed to fail. They chipped louder and louder when Southwest came to town. When southwest bid for Frontier, they all said that Frontier would soon be a relic of the past.

There is a bizarre level of Airline Elitism around here. People can't stand that an airline dare operate with a different philosophy than others. It's the same thing that happened when Republic walked out of the auction owning a new airline. How dare these lowly regional types try to run an airline.

Me, Frontier means a lot to me. It is the first airline I ever flew. Those employees and that trip started my love for aviation. This little airline surprises me every day. They give me quite a smile when they manage to prove their naysayers wrong. I rather like that their mere existence seems to disturb so many. I just want to sit back and enjoy.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 78, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16069 times:
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Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72):
I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.

Yes!

I suppose we have to assume that Southwest will start DEN-CLE as well, if only to kick Frontier in the nuts, but hey, such is life.

It may be foolish to hope for CLE-MCO - Southwest is starting it, but as a 1 x weekly Saturday.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 79, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16042 times:

I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west. It was also an alternative to Continental at Cleveland Hopkins. But it looks like Southwest will now fill that role.

Now that Frontier is at Cleveland and could possibly leave Dayton, I'd really like to see them start Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky. Not only would they be safe from Southwest, but any low-fare carrier. They could also possibly stand to benefit from Delta's hub cuts.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 80, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 16037 times:
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Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79):
Now that Frontier is at Cleveland and could possibly leave Dayton, I'd really like to see them start Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky.

Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.

But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 81, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15927 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.

But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.

Good question. Its tough to guess but i think the DEN-CVG might be able to sneak in since the airport is CVG and its 2012. Delta really seems to have bigger fish to fry aka protect NYC, SLC, ATL, MSP and DTW. Delta just doesnt seem to care about CVG so unless that flight is really a money maker or they have something against frontier i think its worth the attempt. The only reason delta might is a low cost carrier to the west would drastically reduce its high CVG airfares..............its a question of how much money is CVG really making versus using the gates for the sake that they have them paid for so long. I think frontier should go for it CVG is begging for a domestic LCC and it would be really welcomed i bet.

I think it would be great for the airport that really needs a boost right now. CVG-DEN/MCO would be awesome. Its a southwest free airport. Its southwest free, alot of people would love to see a LCC in such an expensive market, and they would be welcomed in with open arms by the airport who is trying hard to get service there.

Quoting azstar (Reply 76):
Load factor is not the problem for Frontier. Their load factors have always been high. The problem is yield.

agreed. retiring all these planes we should expect record load factors again. but record load factors also mean they are buying more tickets on other airlines at denver when misconnects happen also costing $$$+ money than the ticket probably was

Quoting azstar (Reply 76):
When your single daily, or weekly, flight is seriously delayed or cancelled you will pay the accommodating airline much more to transport your passenger than you received in fare.

but i think this is EXACTLY why they are shifting to an allegiant style airline. MCO aka point to point less than daily flying. For those that dont know allegiant doesnt even sell connections, has no accomidating fees to other airlines, and has unbelievably low baggage issues. I have been in DEN before on bad weather frontier customer service lines are the longest i have ever seen in an airport since they have no way to rebook everyone. This is alot of the reason why i think they are shifting away from so many connections. The allegiant model WWAD (What Would Allegiant Do) I really think is the direction they are heading. Use DEN as a smaller operation more o&d focused, less connections and more MCO or simiar type operations? MCO i think is the real experiment in action here of where the airline will head if they can successfully copy Allegiant


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 82, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 15913 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 81):
Its tough to guess but i think the DEN-CVG might be able to sneak in since the airport is CVG and its 2012.

And Delta's assaut on MCI - as an immediate result of Frontier's MCI-MSP - happened just over a year ago

Throughout its history, whenever Frontier has encroached on any Delta/Northwest territory, there has been a very strong -always destructive - response.

Now - I accept that the Frontier/Delta relationship may have changed, given the events of the last three months or so, but I wouldn't like to see that history repeat itself again.

That said, I would very much like to see DEN-CVG happen, for several of the reasons given above, but I'm not sure that the lack of Southwest is one of them. If Southwest did decide to invade CVG, and it may, I doubt anyone could stop 'em.

I think it is extremely difficult to guess what Frontier will do next. I don't think the Allegiant comparison holds, except in less than daily service and Frontier's been doing that for a while. It's too easy to forget that DEN-CUN - more than a decade ago - started as less than daily and SLC-CUN is still 1 x weekly after all this time.

The corollary to this "frequency" debate is that whenever Frontier has tried it, it hasn't worked. I can easily recall when DEN-LAS went to 10 x daily and LAX was 8 x daily - and they simply didn't work.

So perhaps there is a greater lesson from history. Frontier's glory days, when it was consistently profitable, was when it had less market share at DEN. At around 12% or 13% share at DEN, Frontier was making good money. As share increased, profits declined and became losses - and this was before Southwest came along.

That was an easy one to understand - Frontier kept taking new aircraft from Airbus and had to fly 'em somewhere. As Holly Hegeman said at the time, maybe Frontier should slow down on the aircraft deliveries - just as is happening now.

I think Silent Siegel - just a guess - has learned from this, he keeps referring to it. I don't think he gives a crap about market share.

I also think he is doing something else. He, in cahoots with DS, is making Southwest - as far as is possible - irrelevant to Frontier's future. It will always be there, as long as Frontier is at DEN, but I am told that DEN is doing "increasingly well" for Frontier, and perhaps that is the key - Frontier learning from its own history.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-16 15:36:01]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineintheair10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0
Reply 83, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 15723 times:

Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 65):
Over the next 6-12 months, 16 aircraft are leaving the fleet. (10 E190s and 6 A319s). Next year they will get 6 A320s online, but my understanding is they are backloaded to the later part of 2013.

And you heard this information where? If this is the case, there's going to be some irate senior E-190 DEN crews once they receive word that the base is closing. Source? Rumor has it that the remaining 190s will all be shifted into casino charters. Pretty sad that the company couldn't make money off of some one the most fuel efficient airplanes and by far the cheapest crews.


User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 84, posted (1 year 12 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 15605 times:

Quoting intheair10 (Reply 83):
And you heard this information where? If this is the case, there's going to be some irate senior E-190 DEN crews once they receive word that the base is closing. Source? Rumor has it that the remaining 190s will all be shifted into casino charters. Pretty sad that the company couldn't make money off of some one the most fuel efficient airplanes and by far the cheapest crews.
http://rjet.com/investorrelations.html
On this page there is a link to the investor presentation that Bryan Bedford gave 2 weeks ago. Slide 8 shows the fleet plan. Currently, 5 E190s are being sold to US Airways. 5 are going to a CPA contract of some sort, and they will still be operated by Republic. But they are leaving the Frontier fleet. 5 E190s are currently slated to remain with Frontier in Pro-Rate flying by Republic. BB has made it clear though they have intentions to place those aircraft on CPA agreements.

The E190 is a great airplane. It does not fit with an ULCC carrier though. The fleet is moving to a majority A320, minority A319 set-up.



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 85, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 15390 times:

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79):
I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west.

Was is the operative word in each sentence. CAK has WN now, and jumps when they say jump.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 86, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15342 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 4):
Across the last couple of years I've noticed more airports website URL which have migrated to the flyxxxxxx.com format including BNA and PHF. BNA is www.flynashville.com and PHF is flynewportnews.com or something close. I'm sure there are many others.

FWA was one of the first, when they changed their website to flyfwa.com in 2006 (initially for a booking engine - they then switched the rest of the site over two years later).

Quoting mariner (Reply 1):

Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com.

Guess they couldn't buy Frontier.com from Frontier Communications (a superregional telephone company).

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73):
As of now WN does not offer CLE-DEN nonstop.
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 84):
5 are going to a CPA contract of some sort, and they will still be operated by Republic. But they are leaving the Frontier fleet.

With the AA/APA contract thrown out and a new judge-ordered one allowing for large-plane regional flying, plus AA's existing relationship with RAH, I could see those planes in American Eagle colors out of ORD or DFW.



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15355 times:

The DOT has agreed to process Republic’s request to replace DCA-MKE altogether by changing the designated destination for one slot to OMA and one slot to MSN.

In the end, F9 will now fly one daily MSN, OMA and MCI and 3x daily DEN.

I take it MSN does well if they are still operating it?



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineJoeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 937 posts, RR: 0
Reply 88, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15308 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 87):
The DOT has agreed to process Republic’s request to replace DCA-MKE altogether by changing the designated destination for one slot to OMA and one slot to MSN.

In the end, F9 will now fly one daily MSN, OMA and MCI and 3x daily DEN.

I take it MSN does well if they are still operating it?

Won't this add a F9 second daily from OMA to go back the 2x daily? It's been 2x daily for 20 years, going to 1x daily this fall because 1 republic slot was moved from F9 to US, still flown as republic either way.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 89, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 15285 times:

Quote:
Won't this add a F9 second daily from OMA to go back the 2x daily? It's been 2x daily for 20 years, going to 1x daily this fall because 1 republic slot was moved from F9 to US, still flown as republic either way.

What I believe happening and correct me if I am wrong is they gave one pair of slots away and they just got a pair but only one slot is to MSN and one to OMA so they can operate the flights round trip.

They in effect sold an extra pair of slots just so they could move the MKE slots to one MSN slot and one OMA slot.


With out these new slots they have would have the following as far as I can tell...

3 DEN round trips
1 MCI round trip
1 MSN one way
1 OMA one way

The new slots fill in the one ways to be round trips.

[Edited 2012-09-17 09:49:54]


You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7170 posts, RR: 13
Reply 90, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 15220 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 85):
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79):
I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west.

Was is the operative word in each sentence. CAK has WN now, and jumps when they say jump.

Well I think that CAK spent a lot of money on F9 over the years. I wonder if F9 made this decision on its own or if CAK cut its spending on F9 under pressure from WN. Hard to say. It's probably a mix of everything. Two carriers in that market isn't sustainable. Frankly, Southwest could run F9 out of pretty much every market they have. The only limiter is WN's unwillingness to open stations with few flights. I have to wonder what happens when WN can really attack Mexico. Right now their hands are tied behind their backs with no FL code share.

With UA's resurgence in DEN (funded by that $22 million rent abatement), I think F9 is definitely the weakest link in DEN.

This also allows them to consolidate their Apple op at CLE. 4/wk CLE to DEN is cr@p.

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):

I suppose we have to assume that Southwest will start DEN-CLE as well, if only to kick Frontier in the nuts, but hey, such is life.

I have been off this thread for a while, but it sounds like you now have come around to my point of view that WN is chasing F9. Is that accurate from your "kick in the nuts" comment? I think it's been pretty obvious that UA was not their target.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8266 posts, RR: 23
Reply 91, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15135 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73):
CLE and CAK are separated by 40 statute miles

Except that employees don't live at the airport. If they live in Canton or south of Canton, for example, you're talking about 15-30 minutes to get to CAK but pushing an hour and a half to get to CLE. Does everyone want to have a 3 hour round-trip commute for 10-12 bucks an hour?



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 92, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 15151 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 90):
I have been off this thread for a while, but it sounds like you now have come around to my point of view that WN is chasing F9. Is that accurate from your "kick in the nuts" comment? I think it's been pretty obvious that UA was not their target.

The first Christmas that Southwest was at DEN, I wrote a long, very long fantasy piece on Yahoo Finance - "The Adventures of Herb Skywalker" - describing pretty much what has happened at DEN - including the resurgence of United.

I also suggested that Frontier may not survive. I posted it here, so it may be in the archives.

I also wrote, on Yahoo Finance, that I saw CEO Kelly in a loincloth swinging on a rope vine through DIA yelling "Me Tarzan - DEN hamburger."

I have never had a benevolent view of Southwest at DEN, but I also posted that its arrival at DEN was inevitable. The issue between us was always (I thought) that I don't think that they came to DEN to kill Frontier.

I do admit to slightly tempering my views here - and still do - because the Yahoo Finance board was only about Frontier - if any Southwest supporter wandered in, that was their problem and I was more than happy to have fights there, and did.

Here is different. I neither come here to fight nor to offend people, although I do seem to achieve both those things sometimes.

I think what I have always thought - that at first, Frontier was quite irrelevant to Southwest, live or die, collateral damage or otherwise, and that United was their primary concern. I don't think it occurred to Southwest that anyone could withstand their might, especially a piss-ant airline like Frontier.

I believe that changed more than somewhat, especially after the auction, but I said that at the time. My interest has always been in how Frontier copes with that - how Frontier survives.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-17 11:55:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 93, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15074 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 62):
PHL-DEN could be the precurser from DEN-TTN.

Or ACY-DEN.... I am hoping since Republic is supposedly basing 2 E-190's in ACY starting Jan (the casino deal) that they will start something else... maybe with ACY opening the FIS building by the end of the year, they can move the PHL- CUN/PUJ to ACY for Apple Vacations...

I can dream right?



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 94, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15069 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 90):
Frankly, Southwest could run F9 out of pretty much every market they have. The only limiter is WN's unwillingness to open stations with few flights.

F9 still offers 4x daily to MDW-DEN in both directions; MDW being WN largest base. F9 also seems to be thriving in SEA where WN has reduced service. WN hasn't run F9 out of BNA where WN maintains a focus city. Interesting!



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 95, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15021 times:

I am really wishing for acy and cvg. both southwest free

User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 96, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 15030 times:

Interesting article on BZN and MSO:

http://missoulian.com/news/local/mis...2-ffb1-11e1-b5e3-001a4bcf887a.html

Note that the Bozeman airport director seems to really like F9 at his airport and there is no mention of the rumored subsidy to attract F9 to MSO.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25336 posts, RR: 49
Reply 97, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 15008 times:

Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.

Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.

Republic contends that grant of slot slide is under exceptional circumstances.

Order 2012-9-20



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 98, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 14986 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 97):
Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.

As separation comes closer, it does raise the interesting question of what will happen to those Republic slots.

I suppose it is possible that Republic intends to do a deal with Frontier for the slots - either that, or the routes go away.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 99, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14951 times:

Quoting N766UA (Reply 91):
Does everyone want to have a 3 hour round-trip commute for 10-12 bucks an hour?

In the current economy the Bennie's such as free flights for the employee and their families have to be added to that $10 -$12 an hour would have to be considered.

It may not be ideal for the CSA group but it may benefit the Mechs and alike. I know of two CSA who drive 55 miles each way to BNA. They work 4 ten hour days with some overtime. A friend who works for AS in SEA has access to a company car. I think that has more to do with being on-call 24/7.

I've heard F9 tends to take care of their employees. If you had several commuters who wanted to stay with the company and drive to CLE then It might benefit the company rather than having to rehire and train/certify a new employee(s).



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8266 posts, RR: 23
Reply 100, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14911 times:

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99):
If you had several commuters who wanted to stay with the company and drive to CLE then It might benefit the company rather than having to rehire and train/certify a new employee(s).

I'm sure it would, it's always cheaper to keep who you have! But does that mean F9 pays them more or otherwise compensates them? I dunno, obviously I'm just speaking for me, but I'd never drive that far for that pay, and the odds of overtime with only 1 or 2 daily flights aren't great.

Either way, I wish the CAK employees the best. I actually interviewed for F9 when they opened the CAK base 7 or 8 years ago- to date still the longest such process I've been through! It was like 8 hours of presentations, tests, interviews, etc. etc.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 101, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 14916 times:
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Quoting airliner371 (Reply 74):
I add ATL to that list as well. I think ATL will be gone soon.

It's an interesting idea.

Maybe there's a parallel with Qantas, who is dropping it's service to FRA - because of the changed competitive landscape, FRA is losing money for Qantas.

This has led to howls that Qantas is "abandoning Europe" and "shrinking to a regional airline" but if the route is losing money, or even breaking even, why fly it?

Same with ATL, maybe. I don't see how Frontier's financial health is served when a whole bunch of airlines serve ATL-DEN - because it is a "big" city - while ignoring the rest of Georgia. Maybe, just maybe, there is a case to be made for dropping ATL and starting 3 or 4 weekly DEN-AGS or DEN-SAV, or both, in any variation you can imagine.

Perhaps it's worth the comment that DEN-PHL (mucho competition) goes seasonal while DEN-PHF (no competition) goes year round and there may - stress "may" - be a market for AGS-MCO.

It is entirely possible the Frontier could make money by removing itself from the DEN-ATL fray. Of course, I would expect cries of WN wins here on a.net, but it behooves Frontier to make money, not just fly to the same places as everyone else.

There may be winners and losers in this, but as Sean Menke said - "there are no scared cows" - or there should not be.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-17 15:26:04]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 14877 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 101):
It is entirely possible the Frontier could make money by removing itself from the DEN-ATL fray. Of course, I would expect cries of WN wins here on a.net, but it behooves Frontier to make money, not just fly to the same places as everyone else.

I think there was a time where frontier wanted to be competative for frequent flyers too hence when they had the 8x ish daily to LAX and LAS etc. AKA i have that big conference in LAS and business meetings in LA, SF, Philly, Atlanta, Boston etc and i fly frontier as my favorite airline i get more legroom and a tv and dont fly often enough to get upgraded on united. I think frontier now flys very few business travellers or heavy travellers now and almost all have found there way to united or southwest in denver. Summit the highest level of "elite" only has a requirement of 25,000 miles. Anyone think frontier will elimiate its frequent flyer program totally down the road and really follow allegiant?


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 103, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 14833 times:
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Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 102):
I think there was a time where frontier wanted to be competative for frequent flyers too hence when they had the 8x ish daily to LAX and LAS etc. AKA i have that big conference in LAS and business meetings in LA, SF, Philly, Atlanta, Boston etc and i fly frontier as my favorite airline i get more legroom and a tv and dont fly often enough to get upgraded on united.

In the case of LAS, it only hit the 10 x daily during Spring Break, which I don't think was business travellers and I doubt they make big bucks out of FF's.

As I said earlier, while Frontier was and is a "leisure" airline it has made forays into the world of business pax - DCA is an obvious example. I assume some of the mid size/smaller cities are a combination of both.

But most of Frontier's most lucrative markets have always been the (basically) leisure destinations, or at least, leisure travellers to those destinations.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5430 posts, RR: 12
Reply 104, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14808 times:

Tomorrow (Sep 18) will see COS-SAN service start, replacing the discontinued COS-PDX (seasonal) route. The SAN flights will essentially be duplicates of the PDX-flights in both time and frequency (3x wkly.)

Then in mid-November, COS-SAN changes times a bit and gains a frequency, op'ing 4x weekly. This increase originally coincided with the discontinuation of the (seasonal) SEA-COS route but it appears that the Puget Sound route is now ending a couple of weeks earlier -- at the end of October. There also appears to be some frequency reduction in the SEA flight at some point in October. (It's quite difficult to build an accurate schedule of flights for a city on Frontier anymore since the only way to do it is to look up the online schedules for every day of the week, in both directions, month by month. I know of no other way to do it anyway...)

COS-MCO also starts right around November 15 and uses the same a/c as COS-SAN -- on the alternate days of the week. (Another new route for Orlando for anyone keeping track!)

Anyway, it would be interesting to know how the 2 flights from The Springs to the Pacific Northwest did this summer. I'll also be anxious to find out how SAN and MCO are looking for the winter season, and if they will continue next Spring. (Neither route was announced back in May as seasonal...)

bb


User currently offlineF9Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 696 posts, RR: 3
Reply 105, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14801 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.
Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
CAK? Well, I live in hope for CLE.

Well, you got your wish. Personally, CLE is closer to where I live, so I am happy (or at least happier).

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73):
As of now WN does not offer CLE-DEN nonstop. It looks like everything on WN passes through MDW. There were two flights I saw which are one-stops with no change of aircraft i.e. CLE-MDW-DEN.

The main cities from CLE on WN are MDW, BWI, and BNA.

Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
It may be foolish to hope for CLE-MCO - Southwest is starting it, but as a 1 x weekly Saturday.

This is seasonal for WN. It usually goes away in the spring.

Quoting mariner (Reply 80):
Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.

But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.

DL pretty much abandoned CVG. Since DL defended the hub like no-ones business, a lot of people from Cincy would fly out of IND, SDF, DAY, and CMH, all within a two hour drive.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 106, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 14787 times:
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Quoting F9Fan (Reply 105):
DL pretty much abandoned CVG. Since DL defended the hub like no-ones business, a lot of people from Cincy would fly out of IND, SDF, DAY, and CMH, all within a two hour drive.

I'll stick with history and Frontier's history with Delta is a very ugly one. Hopefully, that may have changed.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 107, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14676 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 104):
Anyway, it would be interesting to know how the 2 flights from The Springs to the Pacific Northwest did this summer.

SEA got extended so obviously the loads were there. Not sure if the two routes made money or not though. I never heard anything about PDX though. Also, I believe both were done with an E190, so with the reduction in E190s, that will also be an issue. DOT data is only available through May 2012, but in May, the 4 new COS flew at the following loadfactors:

PDX 85.75
SEA 86.6
PHX 92.96
LAX 92.57

So PDX/SEA did worse than the other two routes, but PDX/SEA are more seasonal so I'd expect the load factors to be higher June-August.

If you want a comparison, in May OMA-LAX, another seasonal route flew at an 83.22 Load factor and as of now, is not set to resume next summer. I imagine PDX/SEA will need to be above 90% for June-August to come back next summer.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7170 posts, RR: 13
Reply 108, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 14671 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
The issue between us was always (I thought) that I don't think that they came to DEN to kill Frontier.
Quoting mariner (Reply 92):
I believe that changed more than somewhat, especially after the auction, but I said that at the time. My interest has always been in how Frontier copes with that - how Frontier survives.

I'm glad you have come around to my point of view. I've never thought that WN decided to do this out of spite, they simply targeted the weakest players. That's what Walmart does. You don't fight AA if you can fight F9. Easy choice. I've been saying this for year. SY and F9 are weak, they are attacking them. AA/UA/DL can't be killed. F9/SY YX/TZ(already) can be. The meek don't inherit the earth despite BB's views. The strong will win. Survival of the fittest.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 94):
F9 still offers 4x daily to MDW-DEN in both directions; MDW being WN largest base. F9 also seems to be thriving in SEA where WN has reduced service. WN hasn't run F9 out of BNA where WN maintains a focus city. Interesting!

With the latest 4 station deletions I think F9 is on a very dangerous path in DEN. I posted that they were "over-published" in terms of their schedule for Winter. Now we are seeing the correction. PHL/SMF/etc are valid connect points for these 4/week stations they are adding to dodge WN. If you cut them then you have to depend on the local market. DEN is not MCO. With no feed DEN will die. I think we are witnessing the tipping point of the DEN hub.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 97):
Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.

Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.

Republic contends that grant of slot slide is under exceptional circumstances.

Order 2012-9-20

Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away. F9 can't sustain the rest. Everybody else wants DCA/LGA slots desperately and F9 is playing these games.

Quoting F9Fan (Reply 105):
Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.
Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
CAK? Well, I live in hope for CLE.

Well, you got your wish. Personally, CLE is closer to where I live, so I am happy (or at least happier).

If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 109, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14670 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
I'm glad you have come around to my point of view. I've never thought that WN decided to do this out of spite, they simply targeted the weakest players.

There you go again - putting words in my mouth, again.

One mo' time - I don't think that Southwest came to DEN to kill Frontier.

If it had, it would have offered a decent price at the auction, rather than the (somewhat insultingly) low price it did offer.

Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.

I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-17 20:26:05]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 110, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14644 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.

I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.

I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day. F9 probably got pushed down to the minority player on the route once WN started it. Right now in CLE UA is the dominate carrier, but F9 is the 2nd option as the low cost choice. If WN starts the route daily, F9 will be pushed down to the 3rd carrier in terms of service and then be worse off.

I think the move was smart because Apple is already in CLE. With the needed reduction in capacity, I think they were left with a choice to reduce CAK from 2 x daily to 4 x weekly, or move over to CLE at 4 x weekly and combine operations into one station. CLE is a larger city and at 4 x weekly, may be able to take the more price sensitive travelers. If they had stayed at CAK at say 4 x weekly, they would have been competing with the same traffic as WN, at a smaller city.

I suspect they will switch over DAY to CVG which fits my argument above as well. I think attacking DL at MSP (MCI-MSP) or attacking NW (LAX-MSP, MEM-FLL/LAS/MCO) was different because both airlines considered those markets (ATL, MSP, MEM) as their hubs. I highly doubt if F9 starts 4 x weekly CVG-DEN that DL will really do anything more maybe add one additional CVG-DEN frequency.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 111, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 14651 times:
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Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 110):
I think the move was smart because Apple is already in CLE.

  

And at PHL.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-17 21:17:20]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineGentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3140 posts, RR: 1
Reply 112, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 14494 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away.

DCA-MKE at 625 statute miles (885 km) and DCA-OMA at 995 statute miles (1410 km) are both inter perimeter where DCA-DEN is not. I don't think inner and outer perimeter can be co-mingled in that the FAA has established two separate submission criteria for each slot type. Outer perimeter being 1251 or more statute miles from DCA or 2010 km.



Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
User currently offlinetoltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3290 posts, RR: 4
Reply 113, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14473 times:

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 110):
I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day.

WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.


User currently offlineflyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2004 posts, RR: 13
Reply 114, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 14451 times:

Quoting toltommy (Reply 113):
WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.

I don't doubt they will add a second flight. I guess we will see what kind of workings they are going to go with their operations for the next spring/summer schedule. Only reason it's 1x right now and middle of the day is because of scheduling as the aircraft does MDW-CAK-DEN and DEN-CAK-MDW. Just depends on how WN wants to route the aircraft.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7170 posts, RR: 13
Reply 115, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 14303 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
One mo' time - I don't think that Southwest came to DEN to kill Frontier.

If it had, it would have offered a decent price at the auction, rather than the (somewhat insultingly) low price it did offer.

But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9

F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.

Quoting mariner (Reply 109):
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.

I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 110):
I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day. F9 probably got pushed down to the minority player on the route once WN started it.

Well, yes, but at a more micro level, CAK airport spent a ton of money promoting Frontier in the area. That's largely wasted now. They are starting all over at CLE. WN can kill them there (to DEN) even more easily.

Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 112):
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away.

DCA-MKE at 625 statute miles (885 km) and DCA-OMA at 995 statute miles (1410 km) are both inter perimeter where DCA-DEN is not.

I mean that ultimately all "F9" slots will only serve DEN, not that they are going to try to change the perimeter status of their other slots...although they've asked for everything but that.

Quoting toltommy (Reply 113):
WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.

I doubt it. They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.


User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 116, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14285 times:

Quote:
I mean that ultimately all "F9" slots will only serve DEN, not that they are going to try to change the perimeter status of their other slots...although they've asked for everything but that.

What he is saying is that all DCA flights other then DEN will end. I have to agree. MCO would not work because its is served very well and nothing else makes sense.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 117, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14283 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9.

The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist - I don't know why you keep trying to enlist me to your cause. I think Frontier at DEN is largely irrelevant to Southwest - Frontier has never stopped Southwest doing anything it wants to do at DEN, and it is foolish to imagine that Frontier could.

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.

Republic won because Southwest didn't do it's homework about the Republic offer - as the Southwest CEO admitted after the auction.

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.

Southwest is at CAK because of Airtran. Whether is starts DEN-CLE or not is probably irrelevant to Frontier. If Southwest has not done its homework again, it may not understand that.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-18 13:07:45]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 118, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14282 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal.

You STILL don't get it, don't you?! Under the WN deal, Southwest would have killed off the F9 brand and only a very small amount of F9 employees would stayed on a "as needed basis", which meant everyone would have had to re-apply for their jobs. This came straight from CEO Kelly's mouth. None of the F9 employees were guaranteed ANY jobs with WN. Fact.

The Republic deal was much better because it guaranteed jobs for everyone, but some employees would have had to be relocated elsewhere in order to remain a F9 employee. C-Check and the GO were two examples. When Republic became the new owners, I did not have to re-apply for my job. But had WN became the owners, you can bet your bottom dollar that I wouldn't have survived the merger, as with thousands of other F9 employees. Fact.

Why can't you understand this and accept it, Enilria?! Let it go......

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Republic won because Southwest didn't do it's homework about the Republic offer - as the Southwest CEO admitted after the auction.

  



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1324 posts, RR: 15
Reply 119, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 14232 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim

I always enjoy that somebody feels the need to bring this up every 3 months. I think it simply goes back to that Airline Elitism thing I talked about earlier. People can't stand that Southwest didn't win. It's kinda funny.

I'm sure that the F9 Creditors and Employees (who you seemed to have been referring to as idiots) appreciate your overwhelming concern for them. As for Republics claim, F9 management agreed to the claim. You were talking about business tactics in ongoing threads. Is it suddenly bad that Republic did everything they could to maximize their value from Frontier breaching contract?



"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 120, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 14220 times:
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Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 119):
As for Republics claim, F9 management agreed to the claim. Y

So did the bk judge. It went into Frontier's books as legitimate, court approved debt.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 14083 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 63):

I think ABE-FLL would be more popular than ABE-DEN, and given the shorter length more feasible year round if attempted by F9. Another reason against ABE-DEN is ABE-DEN would self compete with MDT-DEN. Then again, F9 at TTN goes against F9 at ABE filling as a PHL/EWR alternative.


User currently offlineFWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3749 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 14058 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 102):
Anyone think frontier will elimiate its frequent flyer program totally down the road and really follow allegiant?

G4 plans on launching a frequent-vacation program soon, with a heavy emphasis on packages (if you book as a package, you get far more points).

Anyway, with F9 moving CAK to CLE because of the Apple Vacations contract, does anyone else think that an F9 MDW to ORD move is in short order?



"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 14003 times:

Quote:
does anyone else think that an F9 MDW to ORD move is in short order?

Supposedly this is not going to happen but it would make so much sense I don't know why they don't just pick up and move to ORD.



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinekingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1306 posts, RR: 17
Reply 124, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13998 times:

I used to think F9 should move ops from MDW to ORD but now I'm not so sure. ORD is further from downtown than MDW. ORD is more expensive than MDW. AA, UA and now NK operate DEN - ORD so F9 would be the 4th carrier. In MDW, F9 only has WN to compete with.


Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
User currently offlineBuddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 527 posts, RR: 4
Reply 125, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13997 times:

I wish F9 would keep MDT-DEN year round. Maybe with PHL-DEN being dropped, it could happen, though I would think by now they would have done it, considering MDT-DEN ends the 27th of October.
FLL did well for FL at MDT and ABE, I think it didn't return in 2011 because of the WN merger. I think once F9 gets more aircraft they can find routes out there that are profitable and ones people want to fly.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8266 posts, RR: 23
Reply 126, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 13998 times:

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 122):
Anyway, with F9 moving CAK to CLE because of the Apple Vacations contract

I doubt that's the only reason. The contract isn't permanent, and if F9 thought they could make more money at CAK long-term I'm sure they'd stay.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 127, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 14026 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 126):
I doubt that's the only reason. The contract isn't permanent, and if F9 thought they could make more money at CAK long-term I'm sure they'd stay.

It's the dominant reason and the contract has another six years to run.

It isn't just CLE-CUN/PUJ. The aircraft at CLE also funds the PIT, CVG and (as of January PHL) flights.

It's why Frontier flies (non-revenue) CLE-PIT and CLE-CVG.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineRJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14006 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 127):
It's why Frontier flies (non-revenue) CLE-PIT and CLE-CVG.

"Hello, 1980's is calling and wants their dead-heading back"


doesnt;t happen in this new arena of aviation... a loss leader!


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 129, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 14006 times:
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Quoting RJNUT (Reply 128):
doesnt;t happen in this new arena of aviation... a loss leader!

The Apple contract pays for it.   

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinesmoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1306 posts, RR: 11
Reply 130, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 13979 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9.

WN is becoming more of a hub and spoke airline, and DEN makes more sense to flow people through to the west coast rather than through PHX and LAS. While I do think some of WN's actions at DEN were directly targeted at F9 (CAK, DAY, CUN), DEN was a glaring hole in WN's network. WN was much more predatory to US at PHL back in 2004 than they are towards F9. I do think they will fly DEN-CLE but if they start that, LAS/PHX-CLE might end as DEN can still serve that traffic. Same goes for SDF. You could look at that and say they started that to knock F9 off the route, but I think DEN-SDF will end up replacing PHX-SDF as it has more connection opportunities.

Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.

How so? WN saw synergies... WN would not have kept any of F9's aircraft long term, and wouldn't have needed many of their employees at out stations as WN served many of the cities already. Their argument to the DOJ about buying F9 increased competition at DEN was laughable. Lastly most corporate employees would've lost their jobs as you don't need two HR or finance departments.

Same thing goes for FL/YX at MKE back in 2007. Most employees were either better off with Republic or in the case at MKE, no worse off as FL wouldn't have needed them in the 1st place.


User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8266 posts, RR: 23
Reply 131, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13934 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 127):
It's the dominant reason and the contract has another six years to run.

Wow, 6 years? I didn't realize it was that long.

Quoting mariner (Reply 127):
It's why Frontier flies (non-revenue) CLE-PIT and CLE-CVG.

That's SOP for any charter operator I think. Allegro, Trans Meridian, and USA3000 have all flown CLE-PIT and CVG in addition to their CUN service.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 132, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13925 times:
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Quoting N766UA (Reply 131):
Wow, 6 years? I didn't realize it was that long.

It is a seven year contract and this coming winter is the second year.

Quoting N766UA (Reply 131):
That's SOP for any charter operator I think. Allegro, Trans Meridian, and USA3000 have all flown CLE-PIT and CVG in addition to their CUN service.

  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8266 posts, RR: 23
Reply 133, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13915 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 132):
It is a seven year contract and this coming winter is the second year.

I guess I never considered it could be that long given that every previous airline that held the contract went out of business after a few years…

Well, good for F9, I hope the charter ops and "re-imagined" network can float them.



This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 134, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 13916 times:

If frontier were to start ACY-MCO how would spirit react? It almost seems to hard to imagine them doing nothing but Spirit has prooven ACY-Florida has major potential and is profitable. People are also very use to looking at that airport when flying to Florida. I just think spirit has lost some interest in ACY because its totally competition free and they have more profitable alternative elsewhere. Is there any chance that spirit would just let frontier fly this single route in peace? Frontier would not pose much threat too spirits dominance of the airport and they seem to be looking elsewhere. Would be great for the airport!

User currently offlinewnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 545 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 13929 times:

Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.
Wnfg 



my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
User currently offlineairlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 136, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13855 times:

With the loss of PVU and SMF, it seems like F9's spokes in the western half of the country are steadily becoming more sparse. SJC, BOI, RNO, and TUC all used to be places that F9 flew to.

Anybody know how Bellingham and Spokane, Washington are doing for F9?

Which cities tend to be higher performers in the system? I would venture to guess DCA, LGA, LAX, SLC, and STL, to name a few. But they all have heavy competition.

It would be sad to see PHX or ATL go, if it actually happens.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3138 posts, RR: 6
Reply 137, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13845 times:

Quoting Flytravel (Reply 121):
I think ABE-FLL would be more popular than ABE-DEN, and given the shorter length more feasible year round if attempted by F9.

Anything Northeast to Anything Florida will be popular. What I was thinking, in addition to that, these cities desire a western connecting option. That said, the schedule efficiencies you mention make sense, and the nearby cannibalization may also be a factor. Well, maybe some day. I can't see the attraction of ACY-DEN that was suggested earlier. I just can't imagine a large enough draw of DEN (or anything in the west) to Atlantic City, and I've not heard of a desire for ACY patrons or management to want a western destination such as DEN or linked through DEN. Maybe there is, IDK.

-Rampart


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (1 year 12 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 13835 times:

Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 135):
Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.

I guess we should classify this as a rumor but it would make some sense and go with recent trends......consolidate operations and get further away from southwest

Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 136):
Which cities tend to be higher performers in the system? I would venture to guess DCA, LGA, LAX, SLC, and STL, to name a few. But they all have heavy competition.

I really personally doubt LGA is from my personal flights on that route.....its certainly not a real $$$$ earner and uses alot of plane time and fuel for the pretty low average fares on this route now. Delta added two flights from LGA to DEN, SWA added two to LGA and three/two from EWR. Alot of seats have been added to DEN-NYC. There was one time this route(DEN-LGA) was a huge $$$ maker for united.....no longer true


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 139, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 13771 times:
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Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 136):
Anybody know how Bellingham and Spokane, Washington are doing for F9?

I haven't heard much about Spokane (I assume it is okay) and the last figures I have for Bellingham were for July - average 129.5 pax per flight on the A319 (138 seats), but I don't know about revenue/yield.

The rest of the west? There was a lot of talk about Eugene, Oregon, a year or two ago, but maybe that is on the back burner, as is STS (Santa Rosa). STS might have happened with the E190, but it needs the runway extension before it can handle the A319 and that's been delayed by environmental issues. And the A319 might be too much plane.

PSP is coming back for winter and I guess the big question is SBA and the A319, at least in winter. Beyond that, it's probably not the time for experiments and there aren't too many other places in the west that are jumping out at me.

PHX and/or ATL dropped? The only place I've heard it is here, but IF it happened, I assume PHX would become AZA. As above, I wouldn't shed any tears about ATL - if it were dropped in favor of somewhere else in that general area.

Frontier is in uncharted waters. It has a CEO who doesn't give a stuff if people think he is "running away" from Southwest, he is dedicated to one thing - making Frontier a viable, profitable airline. I might wish his p.r. skills were a little better, but people tell me he is an amiable, very knowledgeable man (and tough as boots) who'll take on pretty much anything and he's giving a lot of the p.r. stuff to Bendo ( the COO) and DS.

He also has something to prove - with regard to Southwest.

So I can't guess what Frontier might do - anything is possible, there are no sacred cows. But whatever they do will be geared towards that one thing, at least for the next while - profit trumps growth.

Fingers crossed.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-19 01:55:30]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineairliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 1393 posts, RR: 2
Reply 140, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 13749 times:

Quote:
FLL did well for FL at MDT and ABE, I think it didn't return in 2011 because of the WN merger. I think once F9 gets more aircraft they can find routes out there that are profitable and ones people want to fly.

Right now we don't know if they will do any FLL p2p flying. So far we can only assume they are doing MCO only.

Quote:
Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.

That would make sense time wise and just in general to get away from SWA. Interesting...



You will either love or hate the airline industry. If you love it, it will get in your blood and it will never leave.
User currently offlinenkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2664 posts, RR: 6
Reply 141, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 13681 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 134):
Is there any chance that spirit would just let frontier fly this single route in peace?

Probably not... remember, FL tried ACY-MCO and when they did Spirit added a third flight and upgraded two of them to a 321 at the time......

Spirit OWNS ACY and makes a hefty profit there as operation costs in ACY are generally low... I dont think NK would just let someone come in on one of their routes and not fight it. I think the reason it seems they show no interest in ACY much is because no one bothers them there, and the station runs very smoothly without corporate interference.

Quoting rampart (Reply 137):
I can't see the attraction of ACY-DEN that was suggested earlier.

I had only suggested it because RP will be opening an E190 base in ACY for charter ops, and figured they would have to rotate the aircraft, but this was before I realized the E190 will be leaving the F9 fleet.



I have no association with Spirit Airlines
User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13603 times:

When FL attempted ACY-MCO, it was competing against itself as well, with 2x ACY-ATL->Florida, and a greater number of FL flights to both ATL, MCO out of PHL. To ATL and other connections, the pricing was lower and there was better frequency and change options from PHL.

Anyways, F9 is attempting TTN-MCO. If that doesn't perform well for them, only then I could see F9 considering moving it to ACY. ACY routes to Florida would anyways be less catchment shared with the ABE routes it is offering, than TTN routes are to the ABE routes.

[Edited 2012-09-19 08:31:11]

User currently offlineFlytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 873 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13576 times:

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 124):
In MDW, F9 only has WN to compete with.

To some extent that is true, but if F9 or WN attemped say MDT-MDW, the carrier would still see that UA would price-match MDT-ORD while offering more frequency. It's not like the JFK/EWR difference. While farther from downtown, I think there is more range of hotel options by ORD which might be better for the VFR/leisure traveler, which F9 will attract.


User currently offlinemcg From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 812 posts, RR: 0
Reply 144, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 13553 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist -

I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal. What they want are F9's customers, as many of then as they can capture; and they are very good at capturing customers.


User currently offlineenilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 7170 posts, RR: 13
Reply 145, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13533 times:

Quoting airliner371 (Reply 116):
What he is saying is that all DCA flights other then DEN will end. I have to agree. MCO would not work because its is served very well and nothing else makes sense.

Exactly

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
I think Frontier at DEN is largely irrelevant to Southwest

Then why chase them to CLE as you say they will?

Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.

Southwest is at CAK because of Airtran.

As you know I was referring to CAK-DEN. They were only flying that because of F9. They had to add CAK as a split station because of it.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118):
Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal.

You STILL don't get it, don't you?! Under the WN deal, Southwest would have killed off the F9 brand and only a very small amount of F9 employees would stayed on a "as needed basis",

Who cares about the brand, I am talking about the people. Your comment that only a small number would have stayed on is not based upon anything at all.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118):
None of the F9 employees were guaranteed ANY jobs with WN. Fact.

I don't think any employees have been "guaranteed" jobs in any merger. Can I work where on of these guaranteed jobs is?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118):
The Republic deal was much better because it guaranteed jobs for everyone

Except for the maintenance workers in MKE...and the maintenance workers in DEN...and the HQ staff in DEN...and the RES agents...and the Lynx employees...and...the station employees at the all locations where they switched to contractors...and...well you get the picture. I'm glad those people trusted that guaranteed job promise. Just out of curiosity what has been the change in F9/Lynx employment from the point Republic took over control during Ch11 till now? I don't know it. Do you have the stat?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130):
While I do think some of WN's actions at DEN were directly targeted at F9 (CAK, DAY, CUN), DEN was a glaring hole in WN's network. WN was much more predatory to US at PHL back in 2004 than they are towards F9.

WN learned it couldn't kill a legacy airline and decided to attack the weaker players.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130):
Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.

How so? WN saw synergies...

I don't think I said 9 employees, LOL.

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130):
WN would not have kept any of F9's aircraft long term

But those 717s are staying??? WN treated the FL employees equitably. Why would they treat the F9 employees worse?

Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130):
and wouldn't have needed many of their employees at out stations as WN served many of the cities already.

Same as FL

Quoting mcg (Reply 144):
Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist -

I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal. What they want are F9's customers, as many of then as they can capture; and they are very good at capturing customers.

They attack the weakest player like any good business or lion. F9 is the weakest.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 146, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 13486 times:

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
Who cares about the brand, I am talking about the people.

I'm talking about the WHOLE thing, unlike you where you're talking about only parts of it.....given your posting history on this one very subject.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
I don't think any employees have been "guaranteed" jobs in any merger.

I'll give you that, however, the Republic deal was far more superior than the WN deal in every way.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
Except for the maintenance workers in MKE...and the maintenance workers in DEN...

Which I was in that department. I still had a job after the fact. Just ask Mariner.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
and the HQ staff in DEN...

Again, you don't need two GO's. People at the DEN GO was given a choice to relocate to IND. They were not forced to go. They were given a choice. Not very many employers do that nowadays. What Republic did was a very nice gesture.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
Just out of curiosity what has been the change in F9/Lynx employment from the point Republic took over control during Ch11 till now? I don't know it. Do you have the stat?

Before the auction, we had about 4K plus folks. That number is probably about the same today, give or take 100 folks. But I'm not sure what it is at this very, exact moment as I type this. I'm no longer at F9, I am now with a competitor. And it sure as hell ain't WN.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
But those 717s are staying???

As discussed in CivAv, they're going to DL.

[quote=enilria (Reply 145):
Why would they treat the F9 employees worse?
Because WN originally thought that what they did to the Morris and Muse employees, they could do the same with the Frontier employees. They were wrong. They found out the hard way. Employment laws have sure changed a lot over the years.

We discussed this very topic before. So, why are we discussing it again?! We all thought you understood this a couple years ago.

Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
Same as FL

Except FL employees are now WN employees, as I understand it. How many planes does FL have compared to how many F9 has? Think about it.

You need to let this go, Enilria. Nothing has changed since, and it won't. What happened, happened. You cannot change the past. Accept it.

[Edited 2012-09-19 10:19:07]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 147, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 13428 times:
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Quoting enilria (Reply 145):
Then why chase them to CLE as you say they will?

I don't think they will chase Frontier out of DEN-CLE, even if they start it.

"Kicking someone in the nuts" can be nasty but it isn't usually fatal.

I don't know if it will or not, but Frontier has to assume that it will and plan accordingly.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-19 11:31:17]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25237 posts, RR: 85
Reply 148, posted (1 year 12 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 13375 times:
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Quoting mcg (Reply 144):
I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal.

  

Frontier would need a trigger to go to the DOT/DOJ as with Sam Addoms in 1998 when he complained about United's predatory practices.

I don't know whether that trigger would be Southwest starting DEN-CLE - I could perhaps make a case for it, but I'm not a lawyer and there are smarter people at Frontier than I.

One of the key figures at Frontier seems to be the new COO - Bendo - who keeps saying "we have to do it smarter."

So they are addressing (line item) every weakness of Frontier and trying to turn it into a strength. This is best seen in the fleet. A major reason why Frontier got into trouble was the over-expansion of the Airbus fleet, back in the Potter days. They kept taking those shiny new A319's. It was thought then that deferring the aircraft would be a perceived weakness, but they had to fly all those aircraft somewhere and maybe some of the destinations - or the frequencies - shouldn't have happened. I'm not sure that 2 x daily DEN-RSW was a good idea except in very high season.

It's a process started, but never finished, of course, by Sean Menke - there are no sacred cows.

It applies across the board - third party bookings costing too much? Do something about it. SMF wants to charge $19 a passenger? We can't afford that - maybe others can.

Gates at DEN have always been a huge bone of contention - so how many gates at DEN do we actually need, or can we do it smarter?

Three carriers on SDF? That doesn't work for Frontier. We have to be at CLE - why do we need to be at CAK as well?

Can we make a dime out of PHL in winter, with four carriers on the route and with fuel at these prices?

The negative is an external - this is how Frontier has always done things, therefore this is how Frontier should always do things. But that's just silly, because maybe - just maybe - Frontier was doing it wrong, or competitive issues have changed.

It isn't an easy process but it is an essential one - there is no place for sentiment and there are no sacred cows.

mariner

[Edited 2012-09-19 12:45:33]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinefreakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 868 posts, RR: 1
Reply 149, posted (1 year 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 12993 times:
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Some Good News for F9: The Animals should be happy. The DEN-SBN-DEN flights operated with Airbus A319 aircraft on both the inaugural weekend Oct 11th and the Oct 18th weekend which are Notre Dame football home weekends with Stanford and Brigham Young respectively appear to be SOLD OUT. Way to go fans. There is such a high demand for seats in the SBN market these weekends that Delta is running mainline on the Sunday after the games to not only the usual SBN-DTW market but also SBN-ATL. I cannot recall anytime that they ran mainline after a game to ATL.