"Frontier Airlines today unveiled FlyFrontier.com as the airline's new website address. The announcement comes as the Denver-based carrier continues to improve and further differentiate the products offered through its website, making FlyFrontier.com the best place to book Frontier travel for more choice, more perks and more value."
And this article talks about the need to push traffic away from the third party travel sites to Frontier's own website - it saves Frontier money and it is the place to book Classic/Classic Plus - which brings in more money::
"Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in. And they’ll pay more in fees while earning half as many frequent flier miles.
“Particularly for families, it provides an incentive to book directly,” said Daniel Shurz, Frontier’s senior vice president, commercial. “There is no logical reason for our customers to want to book anywhere else."
I think "penalize" is a bit strong - LOL - true, perhaps, but strong.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 4, posted (8 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 16993 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 2): I don't like how they replaced their logo with flyfrontier.com on their website.
A pattern is emerging across aviation. Across the last couple of years I've noticed more airports website URL which have migrated to the flyxxxxxx.com format including BNA and PHF. BNA is www.flynashville.com and PHF is flynewportnews.com or something close. I'm sure there are many others.
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): "Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in.
Lets hope F9 has thought about their military/government travels who are generally required to book through a government contracted travel agent. I suppose that sect of fliers will be exempt and will be given seat assignments. DEN-DCA is a heavily flown route I hate to see F9 loose market share to WN (when that service is established) as F9 has four daily flights to the nations capital.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22060 posts, RR: 51 Reply 5, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16944 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): “There is no logical reason for our customers to want to book anywhere else."
How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?
Who knows - maybe with new ULCC model, and thinned out schedule such set of clients are no longer much of a focus for F9, but its an odd thing to say imo.
Even SWA knows this - and provides support and corporate tools via the SWABIZ website and has GDS links as it realizes a decent sized subset of travelers cannot book directly.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
RJNUT From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 1166 posts, RR: 0 Reply 6, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16941 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 4): Lets hope F9 has thought about their military/government travels who are generally required to book through a government contracted travel agent. I
if the passenger is booked in "Y" class on Frontier , seats assignmets will still be available and the "YCA" government fares should then qualify
you can also negotiate in contracts access to preferred seats..we have such an agreement with American. Dont know if Frontier has that capability or know -how?!
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 16927 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?
Who knows - maybe with new ULCC model, and thinned out schedule such set of clients are no longer much of a focus for F9, but its an odd thing to say imo.
Even SWA knows this - and provides support and corporate tools via the SWABIZ website and has GDS links as it realizes a decent sized subset of travelers cannot book directly.
Frontier alienated their business travelers a long time ago when they reduced frequencies on almost every route, and went to the less than daily model. A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 16876 times:
Quoting azstar (Reply 7): A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.
Outside of any mandatory use contracts ; on business I would generally book with a carrier who offered multiple frequencies. With that said I have flown WN once daily SEA-BNA non-stop on many occasions because I hate airport waiting and potential delays add to that flying south (DFW or IAH) to go north or vice versa.
For those on government business the civil service work rules allows for less frequent flight schedules under the standard workday rule which states a civil service employee may, but does not have to travel outside of their standard workday be it eight , ten or twelve hours. They must weigh this against the governments prudent person rule a.k.a. stewardship of funds rule which states government travelers assigned to the Executive branch must show prudence and travel is if they were paying for it themselves. This usually means courtesy hotel shuttles vice taxi cabs. As a prior travel manager and Authorized Certifying Officer I've have disallowed what I determined was fluff.
On leisure travel F9 infrequent schedule in most markets is not a show stopper.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2854 posts, RR: 7 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 16763 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 8): On leisure travel F9 infrequent schedule in most markets is not a show stopper.
I don't know how many leisure flyers consider this, if they had more choices per day, a schedule snafu even for a leisure traveler would be better, and I think about these things, and am warry about booking a flight on a once/day (or less) airline like F9 or Allegiant (or similar). If I'm flying my family back and forth on a holiday -- say Christmas season -- and something happens that scratches the one daily flight there or (worse) back. Or maybe it isn't even daily. As I understand it, a weather situation would be "act of God", F9 wouldn't be obligated to rebook on another airline, would rebook on themselves, but options would be much less. That said, rebooking out of a hub with a much larger airline (like UA or AA) is near impossible, too, as I've experienced DEN or EWR during a storm shutdown. Not much difference. But what about a mechanical? Would F9 willingly rebook on another airline if they have no choice that day, or even the next day?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 16726 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?
I dont't think he is talking to them. Frontier is a leisure airline. The places on the route map that have the most destinations (outside of DEN) are MCO, CUN and PUJ.
It's never been high frequency (to the non-leisure destinations) and every time it has tried that, it hasn't worked.
It was the problem at MKE and BB understood that and thought he could change it - and he was wrong.
Frontier is removing itself from the fray and embracing what it always was, at heart, and over the course of the next few weeks, I expect it to become even more obvious.
Bottom feeding? Sure. Not exactly like Allegiant and Spirit, but close.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22060 posts, RR: 51 Reply 12, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16656 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 10): I dont't think he is talking to them. Frontier is a leisure airline.
Yes fair enough.
I guess with F9 also showing the Delta exit door to Early Return members, the business segment is not something F9 is looking to foster. Yet another tactical change as F9 continues to evolve.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 13, posted (8 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 16646 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12): I guess with F9 also showing the Delta exit door to Early Return members, the business segment is not something F9 is looking to foster. Yet another tactical change as F9 continues to evolve.
MKE again.
MKE showed the essential schizophrenia of Frontier trying to be both. Nor do I think it is just the Early Returns thing - I'd love to know what was said between Frontier and Delta and US about MKE (and MCI) and DCA and E190's and a bunch of other stuff.
And what Frontier got in return, assuming it got something.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6364 posts, RR: 34 Reply 14, posted (8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 16547 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com.
This seems a bit of going back to the future. They've had flyfrontier.com for years and years in addition to frontierairlines.com.
Quoting mariner (Reply 10): Frontier is removing itself from the fray and embracing what it always was, at heart, and over the course of the next few weeks, I expect it to become even more obvious.
I wouldn't say that Frontier was always a leisure airline; back in the day, the company used to boast of the number of corporate contracts it had signed. They were always focused on price-sensitive passengers -- this is true -- but this focus wasn't limited to leisure travel.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 16, posted (8 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 16465 times:
My experience and has happened twice across twenty or so years is the airline would rebook you on another carrier. I've never had it happen on F9 thus I don't know their policy. I would think all airline contracts of carriage don't vary that much as most of it is driven by law. What the carrier has to do.
We got stuck in ORD once on a one-stop with no change of aircraft for snow on a SEA-DCA flight. After two long days in O'Hare we finally got back in the air. When I got back home I wrote AA and ask for reimbursement for my hotel. They paid me. Did they have to; I don't know. I can only assume they did because they could not meet their contract of carriage requirement which involved getting me from point A to B without minimal delay.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 17, posted (8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16409 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 14): I wouldn't say that Frontier was always a leisure airline; back in the day, the company used to boast of the number of corporate contracts it had signed. They were always focused on price-sensitive passengers -- this is true -- but this focus wasn't limited to leisure travel.
Um - I think I said that there were several attempts to be something other, as in my comments on frequency.
And surely BB believed it when he explained the dichotomy between Frontier and Midwest, with which I agree.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 18, posted (8 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 16372 times:
On a side note, Yesterday the DOT awarded Skywest the EAS contract for Iron Mountain, Brainard, International Falls, and Rhinelander. Skywest won't flake out of RHI like ZK did, so F9 should be able to finally discontinue MKE-RHI by early next year.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 16252 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): "Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline. Those fliers won’t be able to get seat assignments until check-in. And they’ll pay more in fees while earning half as many frequent flier miles.
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16068 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 1): "Frontier Airlines is the latest carrier to jump into the fight, announcing Wednesday that it will penalize passengers who don’t book directly with the airline.
Quoting azstar (Reply 7): Frontier alienated their business travelers a long time ago when they reduced frequencies on almost every route, and went to the less than daily model. A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.
Penalize customers and make it more expensive to buy your product. Sure. That makes sense. If they want to stay competitive, don't penalize people who don't book flights through their website. Give fliers discounts who DO book directly through their website. I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 21, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 16070 times:
As I said in the previous thread, SBA is getting the A319 (1 x daily) in January and it really scratches my itch.
I've always liked SBA as a destination for Frontier - good summer leisure and, presumably, some business traffic. It's tough to think that winter sustains on leisure and VFR.
Plus the airport has just spent all that money on the new terminal and at least they're getting one mainline aircraft out of it.
BUT I was concerned to see that United is only flying 1 x daily CRJ DEN-SBA this winter. Can't swear to it, but I thought that United has always flown 2 x daily, even in winter.
So the question is, can SBA sustain the A319 in winter? I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.
I'm less optimistic about the A319 at PVU and I assume it is only a matter of time before DSM comes under assault from the airline mentioned above. I can't see that DSM could sustain three airlines, just as I struggle to think that SDF can.
Or, even if any of these can sustain three airlines - is it worth it? Frontier could probably get the loads, but yield would probably go gurgling down the dunny.
CarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 16053 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20): Penalize customers and make it more expensive to buy your product. Sure. That makes sense. If they want to stay competitive, don't penalize people who don't book flights through their website. Give fliers discounts who DO book directly through their website. I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...
But why can't someone look on Kayak or Expedia etc to find the lowest fare, then go directly to the website of that carrier, whether it be UA or F9 etc, and purchase the ticket with the benefits of booking direct on the website?
What if the news had made the article title "Frontier Rewards Passengers for booking on their site" Really is the same message, just worded in a more positive way. No change really.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15968 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 5): How about the biz passenger which due to travel policy, or contracts must utilize 3rd party site or vendor to handle the booking ?
This is already the case with all airlines that charge for so called 'premium' seats anyway. We are just advising each corporate client one by one to get used to getting their seats from the airlines website direct
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 15951 times:
I realize we all have our favorite research and booking engines. Why not use something like this http://matrix.itasoftware.com/ and then call the airline.
You cannot book travel on the ITA software but it will provide almost everything you ever wanted to know about a particular flight.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
WALmsp From United States of America, joined Sep 2010, 97 posts, RR: 0 Reply 26, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 15989 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 21): So the question is, can SBA sustain the A319 in winter? I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.
Since the landing pattern for SBA passes right by my window, I look forward to the A319. As for sustainability in winter, who knows? Santa Barbara is definitely warmer in the winter than the Midwest and Northeast so it could be possible that winter travelers looking for climates that do not include snow could fill the A319. However, I doubt there will be enough demand in that scenario beyond what currently exists. I suppose if it is one A319 versus two ERJ-190s, it might work.
As for LAS, America West, and then US Airways flew, SBA-LAS when there was still a hub there and about three or four years ago, Allegiant flew 2X with pretty high load factors, but apparently not enough to sustain it. Flights to LAS for Santa Barbara County currently fly out of Santa Maria (SMX) via Allegiant and it will be adding Hawaii service in November.
Since it is my local airport, I wish SBA great success. As for You-Know-Who Airlines, I think local demand will have to increase several fold before they even glance this way.
In memory of my Dad, Robert "Bob" Fenrich, WAL 1964-1979, MSP ONT LAX
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2854 posts, RR: 7 Reply 27, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 16129 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 20): I use Kayak to find the lowest fares and I guess F9 won't be a consideration from now on...
Was F9 ever a consideration for you, Strawman... er, I mean, IllinoisMan?
More generally, do you always limit yourself to just one portal? I sometimes use Kayak and ITA, sometimes Orbitz, but I can't tell you the last time I actually bought something from a 3rd party travel website. I always end up browsing the home websites of the airlines, and find it useful to buy from them. Isn't that sensible?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 16004 times:
Does anyone know if F9 markets/sells gift cards in retail merchant locations such as Fred Meyers, Publics, Kroger and or King Sooper (A Colorado grocery merchant) etc? I don't recall seeing them locally.
I can buy WN gift cards in $50, $100.00 and $200.00 denominations at my local grocery store. Where extra perks enter the equation several times a year the merchant offers 4x fuel points per dollar in gift card purchases which is redeemed at the gas pumps for up to a $2 off per gallon per fill-up up to 100 gallons. i.e. multiple vehicles.
I recently purchased $400.00 in WN gift cards X4 which got me 1600 points or $1.60 off per gallon of gas which can be negotiated in any increment from $.10 to the entire $1.60 off per gallon WN web URL allows you to use four cards to purchase tickets per itinerary.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22060 posts, RR: 51 Reply 29, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 15821 times:
Santa Barbara on the 319 during the winter will be quite interesting.
The market is an extremely seasonal one with enplanements over the winter only about 50% of the summer peak.
From what I can tell United still keeps its 2x on the CRJ for the winter this year. I don't see a difference in GDS looking until April.
Btw - anyone know who the ground handler at SBA is these days?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
They blame the fleet reduction and it is unclear whether it is seasonal or not.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29): From what I can tell United still keeps its 2x on the CRJ for the winter this year. I don't see a difference in GDS looking until April.
kkephart13 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15738 times:
CAK, PHL and DAY i heard is closing 1/6 as well.
EVERYTHING i type on here, is the opinion of ME and not of any airline/company.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15693 times:
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 34, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 15723 times:
"Curtis added that even Frontier executives had never seen the reception and speed of growth like in Provo. "We've averaged 75 percent full or more every day from the first day even in the low winter months," Curtis said. "We were told 65 percent was the critical line to surpass in the first year."
"As recent as a month ago, Frontier had told the city it would be flying its Airbus jet into Provo starting next year. An Airbus holds approximately 130 passengers compared to the Embraer-190s which held 99 passengers. "They even sent people here to expand the terminal and for the first time started doing their OWN marketing and put up billboards," Curtis said."
The airbuses im not sure would have been too large but they dont want to do it clearly its the new frontier style. I think they want less DEN-daily and connecting flight passengers and want more MCO allegiant style operation o&d so why spend the time on Provo when its mostly connecting passengers..........just my guess of what direction this airline is headed to be allegiant wannabe.
"Cabanilla said she would like to have flights from Provo to California. She is not alone. According to Gleason and Curtis, in unscientific surveys Southern California routes seem to be the favorite choice of people in the area."
I think alot of us have said this for a while. Provo to LAX, SNA or LGB would do great. I think united could find it to be an amazing CRJ200/700 market. Jetblue i think could pull off a 320 but they have no extra LGB slots.
I think united is the best option for provo overall and its really the market(socal) that the area would use. There are so many so cal transplants in that area and alot of BYU students from that area i have no doubt it would do great. plus onward connections to hawaii from lax that route would do excellent for united to lax. There was certainly a demand to denver but nothing like i think they would see to so cal. I hope they are reaching out to skywest and united its the natural fit. If they get it started by ski season you would have some very happy so cal people also sundance ski resort close to provo really caters to hollywood types and its a pretty easy trip to park city or sundance events near provo. I just dont know how delta will react if united starts to move in on provo
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6364 posts, RR: 34 Reply 35, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 15664 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 34): I think united is the best option for provo overall and its really the market(socal) that the area would use.
The problem with a United service to Southern California (and almost certainly LAX if it were to happen) would be pricing. United's pricing would almost undoubtedly have to be higher to cover the high costs of the CRJ they'd be likely to use. And with higher prices, I think you'd see most people driving to SLC for lower prices on more comfortable, mainline aircraft.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 29): Santa Barbara on the 319 during the winter will be quite interesting.
I think 1x daily to SBA will be challenging from a schedule standpoint with BUR & LAX a couple of hours away.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 36, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15599 times:
With losing 5 (and possible 10), E190s, cuts have to be made.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 37, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15595 times:
Quote: With losing 5 (and possible 10), E190s, cuts have to be made.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 38, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15588 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 33): Quote:
CAK I believe yes, but I hadn't heard DAY.
Both just got WN service to DEN...
Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.
But I had not heard DAY - I have heard a couple of other cities.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 35): I think 1x daily to SBA will be challenging from a schedule standpoint with BUR & LAX a couple of hours away.
IIRC, it was 1 x daily last winter, most days at least. That did okay.
I doubt SBA would support 2 x daily with the A319 in winter, so if it doesn't work at 1 x daily then SBA will either have to become seasonal or be dropped.
Bobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15561 times:
If the E90s are leaving the fleet, who will Republic be flying E90s for? I would love to see them at AA flying under the Eagle banner
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22060 posts, RR: 51 Reply 41, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15545 times:
Provo-Denver was never the communities first choice.
As part of the SCASD grant, Provo first preference was a link to the LA Basin, Vegas or the Bay Area.
Bulk of demand is westward.
Also interesting I think to note, even F9 was not planning a E190 at PVU to begin with, put plans called for twice daily E145s. Probably a more marketable option, but as we know fleet composition and E145 use change at Republic.
Wonder how much of the $500,000 grant is left for Provo to try to re attract someone with?
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 42, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15532 times:
Quote: How many E190's does F9 have left (even after the planned departures)? Does it look like they're trying to move to an all Airbus fleet again?
With the 10 retirements they will have 5. Yes I think they are going to all Airbus. What I don't know is why waste the money on Gogo on the e190 if they intend to retire them a few months later.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 43, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 15483 times:
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 45, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 15419 times:
Quote: There hasn't been a press release - I assume there will be one
Considering Provo is not out of the schedule yet, they are probably going to announce all cuts at once.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 46, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 15314 times:
How does GRR do? I could see GRR going because WN is going in soon and they don't seem to compete with WN.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 15268 times:
Provo is still bookable here (friday night) past that date in a 319 so like others said it could be announced in some other Denver based cuts of cities. I really think this cut has more to do with frontier focusing on MCO and trying to be a smaller allegiant copycat airline than provos performance. It seems like like they tried hard and the market has potential for a california service. I hope they can land something. I think people will pay a premium over the competative SLC market so united express really could be an option.
I bet we could see alot of the cuts fit back into the "Frontier Giving Ground To Southwest In Denver" thread. I just hope maybe this will open up some plane time for some more COS flights or more year round services?
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 49, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 15275 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 21): I hope so and IF it can, maybe we can look forward to SBA-LAS a couple of times a week, it wouldn't be hard to schedule. Not that I went SBA to be too successful because then You-Know-Who Airlines would be casting covetous eyes on it.
SBA to LAS won't work for an Airbus. When I worked for OO in the mid 1990's, we flew the route with 19 seat Metros, and eventually the EMB 120. Loads were usually half full. I love SBA, and flew the route often. Maybe now it might work, but I just can't see them filling that many seats on that route.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 50, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 15248 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 49): SBA to LAS won't work for an Airbus. When I worked for OO in the mid 1990's, we flew the route with 19 seat Metros, and eventually the EMB 120. Loads were usually half full. I love SBA, and flew the route often. Maybe now it might work, but I just can't see them filling that many seats on that route.
You mau be right, F9Animal. But if they were not at least optimistic about it, it would be going this week-end.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 51, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 15246 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 50): You mau be right, F9Animal. But if they were not at least optimistic about it, it would be going this week-end.
mariner
I still wish F9 would get some C Series! The 190 is not a bad plane, and seems to do good for F9. I just lime the flexibility I guess. And the 190 has become my favorite ride!
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 53, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15269 times:
Quote:
Closing cities announced.. SDF. CAK. PHL. SMF PVU AND SDF.. JAN 6-7 2013
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 55, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15253 times:
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 57, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 15291 times:
Quoting n917me (Reply 56): Mariner.. the site says discontinued service..n mention on charters
DEN-PHL is discontinued. But PHL-CUN/PUJ is not just charter - it is also Frontier scheduled service. As I understand it, they are still flying, unless things have changed dramatically in the past three or four days.
True.. no mention in the memo.. just that they will.try to.find jobs within the company.for those employees affected.. hopefully PHL is good for CUN/PUJ.... PHL has a close spot in my heart..
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 59, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 15237 times:
Quoting n917me (Reply 58): True.. no mention in the memo.. just that they will.try to.find jobs within the company.for those employees affected.. hopefully PHL is good for CUN/PUJ.... PHL has a close spot in my heart..
Anything is possible, I suppose, but I would be extremely surprised if they cancelled PHL-CUN/PUJ.
Basically, Apple covers the cost of them and anything Frontier gets is gravy.
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 15115 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 30): As I suspected, PVU goes in January:
As I wrote when this started, it won't last long! Bad choice for connections, many other issues and F9/RW has a track record of jumping in and out of markets very quickly. Nothing more than F9 throwing darts at a wall to see how long it sticks. This is the same airline that announced DRO-LAS and nixed it before it even started last month. Good luck to PVU but you're destined to be nothing more than a general aviation airport that supports the occasional diversion from SLC or a sports charter for BYU.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4682 posts, RR: 23 Reply 61, posted (8 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 15051 times:
So 2 markets east of DEN and 2 west of DEN get the axe. It concerns me a bit as the route map is already tilted towards the east out of DEN and I'm wondering exactly what those markets are going to connect to, just the obvious large markets west of DEN?
The WN avoidance routes seems a good strategy on the surface, but with nothing smaller than the 319 soon, I wonder if F9 can pull it off?
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 62, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14935 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 54): I don't think PHL is closing, just DEN-PHL is axed
According to my airport distance calculator the distance between PHL and TTN is 35 statute miles (50 km) nixing PHL-DEN could be the precurser from DEN-TTN. PHL the last time I was there was dated and run down; to the point I do everything in my power to avoid it. I'd imagine TTN fees are also less than PHL.
[Edited 2012-09-15 07:39:47]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2854 posts, RR: 7 Reply 63, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 14895 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 62): According to my airport distance calculator the distance between PHL and TTN is 35 statute miles (50 km) nixing PHL-DEN could be the precurser from DEN-TTN. PHL the last time I was there was dated and run down; to the point I do everything in my power to avoid it. I'd imagine TTN fees are also less than PHL.
This, or ABE, would be very interesting. I'd certainly look at it, as an alternate to EWR for me. But maybe the cuts just now have made enough room for the wave of additions a few weeks ago. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, any new additions may need to wait for other cuts, or new aircraft.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 64, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14844 times:
With SMF going I wouldn't be surprised if they left SNA as well. I could also see PHX and DAY going. If WN does GRR-DEN, I could see them leaving GRR too.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 65, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 14832 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 60): As I wrote when this started, it won't last long! Bad choice for connections, many other issues and F9/RW has a track record of jumping in and out of markets very quickly. Nothing more than F9 throwing darts at a wall to see how long it sticks. This is the same airline that announced DRO-LAS and nixed it before it even started last month. Good luck to PVU but you're destined to be nothing more than a general aviation airport that supports the occasional diversion from SLC or a sports charter for BYU.
Provo stuck for a decent while. The great people there used the service quite well. Over the next 6-12 months, 16 aircraft are leaving the fleet. (10 E190s and 6 A319s). Next year they will get 6 A320s online, but my understanding is they are backloaded to the later part of 2013. As such, cuts have to be made. Provo, while it was doing decently well just could not be a priority.
It's a shame not every airline can survive flying ORD-JFK 22 times daily. I give Frontier a lot of credit for these types of routes. Some work amazingly. SBA, PHF, BKG, and others. I don't know why this site seems so upset when frontier launches a route less than daily, or they fly to large cities less than 5 times a day, etc. Frontier is not Southwest, United, Delta or any of the others. When they try to be, they fail. Now, they are trying something else. If the Q3 numbers tell us anything, it might just be that it MAY be working. I don't know. Maybe as the fleet grows, Provo can return. I will say it seems to have lasted far longer than any of the naysayers claimed it would.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
MSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6242 posts, RR: 51 Reply 66, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 14796 times:
PVU started with E90, then went to Q400 for quite a while. Load factor wise, the Q was a better fit. Once those left the fleet, it was back to E90. Not surprised to see it go, but it seemed to do ok from a booking standpoint. Not sure what type of fares they were drawing.
DEN-SDF/SMF being cut are big disappointments and mildly surprising. DEN-PHL..not as much just considering the cost of fuel. DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 67, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14755 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66): DEN-SDF/SMF being cut are big disappointments and mildly surprising. DEN-PHL..not as much just considering the cost of fuel.
I agree about PHL - great in summer, fell off a cliff in winter - four carriers.
SDF - I said here that I struggle to believe it can support three carriers. I'd love to see 'em start DEN-LEX, 3 x weekly next summer.
SMF - was my only surprise, and quite a big one. Then a dickie bird told me that he wasn't surprised, given what has happened with airport costs and I remembered exactly that in a thread here a couple of weeks ago. High fuel and high airport costs are a destructive mix.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 14696 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 67): CAK? Well, I live in hope for C
[quote=FRNT787,reply=65]If the Q3 numbers tell us anything, it might just be that it MAY be working. I don't know. Maybe as the fleet grows, Provo can return. I will say it seems to have lasted far longer than any of the naysayers claimed it would
I certainly agree with you. I think Provo showed it has great potential and people want to use the airport. I think it has potential for a california flight. I think provo really has more to due with frontier loosing 16 planes than its own performance. Even if provo has potential it seems like they would rather use the plane in MCO or apple vacation route than more denver flying.
I dont think Q3 numbers will tell much. It has two of the busiest months of the year for travel and tons of people to fill planes. Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 are the numbers that i think are much more critical. With so many planes leaving i think we all should expect record load factors. It does seem like froniter is making big moves though less DEN, more MCO and less planes. Would be very interesting to sit in a board meeting of frontier or AA these days
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 69, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 14667 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 67): Then a dickie bird told me that he wasn't surprised, given what has happened with airport costs and I remembered exactly that in a thread here a couple of weeks ago. High fuel and high airport costs are a destructive mix.
I haven't really followed the SMF airport charges - I've been aware of them, is all. Provoked by my chum, I did a little checking and it makes alarming reading, and not just for Frontier, all because of the new billion dollar terminal.
This article doesn't give specific numbers for Frontier, but it does for Southwest and I assume they are comparative:
"Southwest Airlines, which accounts for 55 percent of all Sacramento flights, paid a fee of $6.05 per passenger in 2008, but is projected to pay $16.15 next year and $19.67 by 2013.
"It really does put tremendous pressure on our ability to be successful and maintain profitability in Sacramento," said Southwest spokesman Brad Hawkins.
The airlines and airport are negotiating lower fees. The money could be made up by spreading the increased cost to other users, including passengers."
I am sympathetic to the airport's desire to have a new terminal, but those costs seem very high.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 70, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 14627 times:
Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 66): DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.
If memory serves me CAK came about because CFO Tate was originally from the area. How times change some six months ago we were talking about CAK possibly becoming a focus city.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
kkephart13 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 14488 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 70): DEN-CAK being cut is interesting because much fanfare was made when F9 introduced A320 service in the market. Times change I guess.
I heard from an employee at CAK, that the load factor in July and August for the CAK-DEN route, was 98%. That in those 2 months, they only had a TOTAL COMBINED open 45-50 seats.
EVERYTHING i type on here, is the opinion of ME and not of any airline/company.
kingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 18 Reply 72, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14279 times:
A 98% LF in CAK tells me F9 feels the yields aren't there long term with WN now on the route. It's not like F9 can do anything more to boost the LF. There is nowhere to go but down. I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 73, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 14241 times:
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72): A 98% LF in CAK tells me F9 feels the yields aren't there long term with WN now on the route
CLE and CAK are separated by 40 statute miles (56 km). I guess the CAK employees that choose to do so would be able to commute to CLE.
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72): CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.
As of now WN does not offer CLE-DEN nonstop. It looks like everything on WN passes through MDW. There were two flights I saw which are one-stops with no change of aircraft i.e. CLE-MDW-DEN.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 74, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 14218 times:
Quote:
With SMF going I wouldn't be surprised if they left SNA as well. I could also see PHX and DAY going. If WN does GRR-DEN, I could see them leaving GRR too.
I add ATL to that list as well. I think ATL will be gone soon.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 75, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14177 times:
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72): I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.
azstar From United States of America, joined May 2005, 541 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 14154 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 65): I don't know why this site seems so upset when frontier launches a route less than daily, or they fly to large cities less than 5 times a day, etc.
Load factor is not the problem for Frontier. Their load factors have always been high. The problem is yield. Their infrequent schedules allow them to fill the planes only with the very lowest yields. Higher fare paying passengers tend to avoid airlines with infrequent schedules. There are only so many ways you can cut expenses. Fuel, airport rents, aircraft mortgages, handling services are all high costs. Interline ticket agreements, which Frontier has with several airlines, are also expensive. When your single daily, or weekly, flight is seriously delayed or cancelled you will pay the accommodating airline much more to transport your passenger than you received in fare. When a passenger starts off on another airline and transfers to Frontier, if the baggage is delayed, or lost, Frontier will pay damages, claims, and delivery costs also;again, frequently much higher than the fare received.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 77, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 14142 times:
Whenever Frontier has gone for high frequency, they lose money. With this strategy, they are positioning themselves for the new reality at Denver. Southwest is going to keep expanding there. They dug their feet in and commited. For Frontier, If the 'conventional' type of operation does not work for them, why do it?
Much of what you raise are valid points. But that may just be the evil of how they have to operate to be profitable. Many of those less than daily routes turn out to be huge hits. And they grow.
There are many here that have spent the better part of 10 years telling how Frontier is doomed to fail. They chipped louder and louder when Southwest came to town. When southwest bid for Frontier, they all said that Frontier would soon be a relic of the past.
There is a bizarre level of Airline Elitism around here. People can't stand that an airline dare operate with a different philosophy than others. It's the same thing that happened when Republic walked out of the auction owning a new airline. How dare these lowly regional types try to run an airline.
Me, Frontier means a lot to me. It is the first airline I ever flew. Those employees and that trip started my love for aviation. This little airline surprises me every day. They give me quite a smile when they manage to prove their naysayers wrong. I rather like that their mere existence seems to disturb so many. I just want to sit back and enjoy.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 78, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14107 times:
Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 72): I am pleased to see the route shift up to CLE. DEN - CLE is now bookable starting in January on the A320 4 days a week.
Yes!
I suppose we have to assume that Southwest will start DEN-CLE as well, if only to kick Frontier in the nuts, but hey, such is life.
It may be foolish to hope for CLE-MCO - Southwest is starting it, but as a 1 x weekly Saturday.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 79, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 14079 times:
I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west. It was also an alternative to Continental at Cleveland Hopkins. But it looks like Southwest will now fill that role.
Now that Frontier is at Cleveland and could possibly leave Dayton, I'd really like to see them start Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky. Not only would they be safe from Southwest, but any low-fare carrier. They could also possibly stand to benefit from Delta's hub cuts.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 80, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 14074 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79): Now that Frontier is at Cleveland and could possibly leave Dayton, I'd really like to see them start Cincinnati/Northern Kentucky.
Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.
But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 81, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 13965 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 80): Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.
But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.
Good question. Its tough to guess but i think the DEN-CVG might be able to sneak in since the airport is CVG and its 2012. Delta really seems to have bigger fish to fry aka protect NYC, SLC, ATL, MSP and DTW. Delta just doesnt seem to care about CVG so unless that flight is really a money maker or they have something against frontier i think its worth the attempt. The only reason delta might is a low cost carrier to the west would drastically reduce its high CVG airfares..............its a question of how much money is CVG really making versus using the gates for the sake that they have them paid for so long. I think frontier should go for it CVG is begging for a domestic LCC and it would be really welcomed i bet.
I think it would be great for the airport that really needs a boost right now. CVG-DEN/MCO would be awesome. Its a southwest free airport. Its southwest free, alot of people would love to see a LCC in such an expensive market, and they would be welcomed in with open arms by the airport who is trying hard to get service there.
Quoting azstar (Reply 76): Load factor is not the problem for Frontier. Their load factors have always been high. The problem is yield.
agreed. retiring all these planes we should expect record load factors again. but record load factors also mean they are buying more tickets on other airlines at denver when misconnects happen also costing $$$+ money than the ticket probably was
Quoting azstar (Reply 76): When your single daily, or weekly, flight is seriously delayed or cancelled you will pay the accommodating airline much more to transport your passenger than you received in fare.
but i think this is EXACTLY why they are shifting to an allegiant style airline. MCO aka point to point less than daily flying. For those that dont know allegiant doesnt even sell connections, has no accomidating fees to other airlines, and has unbelievably low baggage issues. I have been in DEN before on bad weather frontier customer service lines are the longest i have ever seen in an airport since they have no way to rebook everyone. This is alot of the reason why i think they are shifting away from so many connections. The allegiant model WWAD (What Would Allegiant Do) I really think is the direction they are heading. Use DEN as a smaller operation more o&d focused, less connections and more MCO or simiar type operations? MCO i think is the real experiment in action here of where the airline will head if they can successfully copy Allegiant
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 82, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 13951 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 81): Its tough to guess but i think the DEN-CVG might be able to sneak in since the airport is CVG and its 2012.
And Delta's assaut on MCI - as an immediate result of Frontier's MCI-MSP - happened just over a year ago
Throughout its history, whenever Frontier has encroached on any Delta/Northwest territory, there has been a very strong -always destructive - response.
Now - I accept that the Frontier/Delta relationship may have changed, given the events of the last three months or so, but I wouldn't like to see that history repeat itself again.
That said, I would very much like to see DEN-CVG happen, for several of the reasons given above, but I'm not sure that the lack of Southwest is one of them. If Southwest did decide to invade CVG, and it may, I doubt anyone could stop 'em.
I think it is extremely difficult to guess what Frontier will do next. I don't think the Allegiant comparison holds, except in less than daily service and Frontier's been doing that for a while. It's too easy to forget that DEN-CUN - more than a decade ago - started as less than daily and SLC-CUN is still 1 x weekly after all this time.
The corollary to this "frequency" debate is that whenever Frontier has tried it, it hasn't worked. I can easily recall when DEN-LAS went to 10 x daily and LAX was 8 x daily - and they simply didn't work.
So perhaps there is a greater lesson from history. Frontier's glory days, when it was consistently profitable, was when it had less market share at DEN. At around 12% or 13% share at DEN, Frontier was making good money. As share increased, profits declined and became losses - and this was before Southwest came along.
That was an easy one to understand - Frontier kept taking new aircraft from Airbus and had to fly 'em somewhere. As Holly Hegeman said at the time, maybe Frontier should slow down on the aircraft deliveries - just as is happening now.
I think Silent Siegel - just a guess - has learned from this, he keeps referring to it. I don't think he gives a crap about market share.
I also think he is doing something else. He, in cahoots with DS, is making Southwest - as far as is possible - irrelevant to Frontier's future. It will always be there, as long as Frontier is at DEN, but I am told that DEN is doing "increasingly well" for Frontier, and perhaps that is the key - Frontier learning from its own history.
intheair10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 29 posts, RR: 0 Reply 83, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 13761 times:
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 65): Over the next 6-12 months, 16 aircraft are leaving the fleet. (10 E190s and 6 A319s). Next year they will get 6 A320s online, but my understanding is they are backloaded to the later part of 2013.
And you heard this information where? If this is the case, there's going to be some irate senior E-190 DEN crews once they receive word that the base is closing. Source? Rumor has it that the remaining 190s will all be shifted into casino charters. Pretty sad that the company couldn't make money off of some one the most fuel efficient airplanes and by far the cheapest crews.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 84, posted (8 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 13643 times:
Quoting intheair10 (Reply 83): And you heard this information where? If this is the case, there's going to be some irate senior E-190 DEN crews once they receive word that the base is closing. Source? Rumor has it that the remaining 190s will all be shifted into casino charters. Pretty sad that the company couldn't make money off of some one the most fuel efficient airplanes and by far the cheapest crews.
http://rjet.com/investorrelations.html
On this page there is a link to the investor presentation that Bryan Bedford gave 2 weeks ago. Slide 8 shows the fleet plan. Currently, 5 E190s are being sold to US Airways. 5 are going to a CPA contract of some sort, and they will still be operated by Republic. But they are leaving the Frontier fleet. 5 E190s are currently slated to remain with Frontier in Pro-Rate flying by Republic. BB has made it clear though they have intentions to place those aircraft on CPA agreements.
The E190 is a great airplane. It does not fit with an ULCC carrier though. The fleet is moving to a majority A320, minority A319 set-up.
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
toltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 85, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13428 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79): I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west.
Was is the operative word in each sentence. CAK has WN now, and jumps when they say jump.
FWAERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 3175 posts, RR: 1 Reply 86, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13380 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 4): Across the last couple of years I've noticed more airports website URL which have migrated to the flyxxxxxx.com format including BNA and PHF. BNA is www.flynashville.com and PHF is flynewportnews.com or something close. I'm sure there are many others.
FWA was one of the first, when they changed their website to flyfwa.com in 2006 (initially for a booking engine - they then switched the rest of the site over two years later).
Quoting mariner (Reply 1):
Frontier has introduced FlyFrontier.com.
Guess they couldn't buy Frontier.com from Frontier Communications (a superregional telephone company).
Quoting FRNT787 (Reply 84): 5 are going to a CPA contract of some sort, and they will still be operated by Republic. But they are leaving the Frontier fleet.
With the AA/APA contract thrown out and a new judge-ordered one allowing for large-plane regional flying, plus AA's existing relationship with RAH, I could see those planes in American Eagle colors out of ORD or DFW.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 87, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13393 times:
The DOT has agreed to process Republic’s request to replace DCA-MKE altogether by changing the designated destination for one slot to OMA and one slot to MSN.
In the end, F9 will now fly one daily MSN, OMA and MCI and 3x daily DEN.
I take it MSN does well if they are still operating it?
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 873 posts, RR: 0 Reply 88, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13346 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 87): The DOT has agreed to process Republic’s request to replace DCA-MKE altogether by changing the designated destination for one slot to OMA and one slot to MSN.
In the end, F9 will now fly one daily MSN, OMA and MCI and 3x daily DEN.
I take it MSN does well if they are still operating it?
Won't this add a F9 second daily from OMA to go back the 2x daily? It's been 2x daily for 20 years, going to 1x daily this fall because 1 republic slot was moved from F9 to US, still flown as republic either way.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 89, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 13323 times:
Quote: Won't this add a F9 second daily from OMA to go back the 2x daily? It's been 2x daily for 20 years, going to 1x daily this fall because 1 republic slot was moved from F9 to US, still flown as republic either way.
What I believe happening and correct me if I am wrong is they gave one pair of slots away and they just got a pair but only one slot is to MSN and one to OMA so they can operate the flights round trip.
They in effect sold an extra pair of slots just so they could move the MKE slots to one MSN slot and one OMA slot.
With out these new slots they have would have the following as far as I can tell...
3 DEN round trips
1 MCI round trip
1 MSN one way
1 OMA one way
The new slots fill in the one ways to be round trips.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 90, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 13258 times:
Quoting toltommy (Reply 85): Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 79):
I always thought Akron/Canton was a hit for Frontier. The airport was happy to have them as it provided a link to Denver with convenient connections to the rest of the west.
Was is the operative word in each sentence. CAK has WN now, and jumps when they say jump.
Well I think that CAK spent a lot of money on F9 over the years. I wonder if F9 made this decision on its own or if CAK cut its spending on F9 under pressure from WN. Hard to say. It's probably a mix of everything. Two carriers in that market isn't sustainable. Frankly, Southwest could run F9 out of pretty much every market they have. The only limiter is WN's unwillingness to open stations with few flights. I have to wonder what happens when WN can really attack Mexico. Right now their hands are tied behind their backs with no FL code share.
With UA's resurgence in DEN (funded by that $22 million rent abatement), I think F9 is definitely the weakest link in DEN.
This also allows them to consolidate their Apple op at CLE. 4/wk CLE to DEN is cr@p.
Quoting mariner (Reply 78):
I suppose we have to assume that Southwest will start DEN-CLE as well, if only to kick Frontier in the nuts, but hey, such is life.
I have been off this thread for a while, but it sounds like you now have come around to my point of view that WN is chasing F9. Is that accurate from your "kick in the nuts" comment? I think it's been pretty obvious that UA was not their target.
Except that employees don't live at the airport. If they live in Canton or south of Canton, for example, you're talking about 15-30 minutes to get to CAK but pushing an hour and a half to get to CLE. Does everyone want to have a 3 hour round-trip commute for 10-12 bucks an hour?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 92, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 13189 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 90): I have been off this thread for a while, but it sounds like you now have come around to my point of view that WN is chasing F9. Is that accurate from your "kick in the nuts" comment? I think it's been pretty obvious that UA was not their target.
The first Christmas that Southwest was at DEN, I wrote a long, very long fantasy piece on Yahoo Finance - "The Adventures of Herb Skywalker" - describing pretty much what has happened at DEN - including the resurgence of United.
I also suggested that Frontier may not survive. I posted it here, so it may be in the archives.
I also wrote, on Yahoo Finance, that I saw CEO Kelly in a loincloth swinging on a rope vine through DIA yelling "Me Tarzan - DEN hamburger."
I have never had a benevolent view of Southwest at DEN, but I also posted that its arrival at DEN was inevitable. The issue between us was always (I thought) that I don't think that they came to DEN to kill Frontier.
I do admit to slightly tempering my views here - and still do - because the Yahoo Finance board was only about Frontier - if any Southwest supporter wandered in, that was their problem and I was more than happy to have fights there, and did.
Here is different. I neither come here to fight nor to offend people, although I do seem to achieve both those things sometimes.
I think what I have always thought - that at first, Frontier was quite irrelevant to Southwest, live or die, collateral damage or otherwise, and that United was their primary concern. I don't think it occurred to Southwest that anyone could withstand their might, especially a piss-ant airline like Frontier.
I believe that changed more than somewhat, especially after the auction, but I said that at the time. My interest has always been in how Frontier copes with that - how Frontier survives.
Or ACY-DEN.... I am hoping since Republic is supposedly basing 2 E-190's in ACY starting Jan (the casino deal) that they will start something else... maybe with ACY opening the FIS building by the end of the year, they can move the PHL- CUN/PUJ to ACY for Apple Vacations...
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 94, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13107 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 90): Frankly, Southwest could run F9 out of pretty much every market they have. The only limiter is WN's unwillingness to open stations with few flights.
F9 still offers 4x daily to MDW-DEN in both directions; MDW being WN largest base. F9 also seems to be thriving in SEA where WN has reduced service. WN hasn't run F9 out of BNA where WN maintains a focus city. Interesting!
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 95, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 13059 times:
I am really wishing for acy and cvg. both southwest free
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 22060 posts, RR: 51 Reply 97, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 13046 times:
Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.
Republic contends that grant of slot slide is under exceptional circumstances.
Order 2012-9-20
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 98, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 13024 times:
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 97): Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.
As separation comes closer, it does raise the interesting question of what will happen to those Republic slots.
I suppose it is possible that Republic intends to do a deal with Frontier for the slots - either that, or the routes go away.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 99, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12989 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 91): Does everyone want to have a 3 hour round-trip commute for 10-12 bucks an hour?
In the current economy the Bennie's such as free flights for the employee and their families have to be added to that $10 -$12 an hour would have to be considered.
It may not be ideal for the CSA group but it may benefit the Mechs and alike. I know of two CSA who drive 55 miles each way to BNA. They work 4 ten hour days with some overtime. A friend who works for AS in SEA has access to a company car. I think that has more to do with being on-call 24/7.
I've heard F9 tends to take care of their employees. If you had several commuters who wanted to stay with the company and drive to CLE then It might benefit the company rather than having to rehire and train/certify a new employee(s).
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
N766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 7993 posts, RR: 27 Reply 100, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 12949 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 99): If you had several commuters who wanted to stay with the company and drive to CLE then It might benefit the company rather than having to rehire and train/certify a new employee(s).
I'm sure it would, it's always cheaper to keep who you have! But does that mean F9 pays them more or otherwise compensates them? I dunno, obviously I'm just speaking for me, but I'd never drive that far for that pay, and the odds of overtime with only 1 or 2 daily flights aren't great.
Either way, I wish the CAK employees the best. I actually interviewed for F9 when they opened the CAK base 7 or 8 years ago- to date still the longest such process I've been through! It was like 8 hours of presentations, tests, interviews, etc. etc.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 101, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12954 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 74): I add ATL to that list as well. I think ATL will be gone soon.
It's an interesting idea.
Maybe there's a parallel with Qantas, who is dropping it's service to FRA - because of the changed competitive landscape, FRA is losing money for Qantas.
This has led to howls that Qantas is "abandoning Europe" and "shrinking to a regional airline" but if the route is losing money, or even breaking even, why fly it?
Same with ATL, maybe. I don't see how Frontier's financial health is served when a whole bunch of airlines serve ATL-DEN - because it is a "big" city - while ignoring the rest of Georgia. Maybe, just maybe, there is a case to be made for dropping ATL and starting 3 or 4 weekly DEN-AGS or DEN-SAV, or both, in any variation you can imagine.
Perhaps it's worth the comment that DEN-PHL (mucho competition) goes seasonal while DEN-PHF (no competition) goes year round and there may - stress "may" - be a market for AGS-MCO.
It is entirely possible the Frontier could make money by removing itself from the DEN-ATL fray. Of course, I would expect cries of WN wins here on a.net, but it behooves Frontier to make money, not just fly to the same places as everyone else.
There may be winners and losers in this, but as Sean Menke said - "there are no scared cows" - or there should not be.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 102, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 12915 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 101): It is entirely possible the Frontier could make money by removing itself from the DEN-ATL fray. Of course, I would expect cries of WN wins here on a.net, but it behooves Frontier to make money, not just fly to the same places as everyone else.
I think there was a time where frontier wanted to be competative for frequent flyers too hence when they had the 8x ish daily to LAX and LAS etc. AKA i have that big conference in LAS and business meetings in LA, SF, Philly, Atlanta, Boston etc and i fly frontier as my favorite airline i get more legroom and a tv and dont fly often enough to get upgraded on united. I think frontier now flys very few business travellers or heavy travellers now and almost all have found there way to united or southwest in denver. Summit the highest level of "elite" only has a requirement of 25,000 miles. Anyone think frontier will elimiate its frequent flyer program totally down the road and really follow allegiant?
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 103, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 12871 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 102): I think there was a time where frontier wanted to be competative for frequent flyers too hence when they had the 8x ish daily to LAX and LAS etc. AKA i have that big conference in LAS and business meetings in LA, SF, Philly, Atlanta, Boston etc and i fly frontier as my favorite airline i get more legroom and a tv and dont fly often enough to get upgraded on united.
In the case of LAS, it only hit the 10 x daily during Spring Break, which I don't think was business travellers and I doubt they make big bucks out of FF's.
As I said earlier, while Frontier was and is a "leisure" airline it has made forays into the world of business pax - DCA is an obvious example. I assume some of the mid size/smaller cities are a combination of both.
But most of Frontier's most lucrative markets have always been the (basically) leisure destinations, or at least, leisure travellers to those destinations.
SANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 4721 posts, RR: 15 Reply 104, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12846 times:
Tomorrow (Sep 18) will see COS-SAN service start, replacing the discontinued COS-PDX (seasonal) route. The SAN flights will essentially be duplicates of the PDX-flights in both time and frequency (3x wkly.)
Then in mid-November, COS-SAN changes times a bit and gains a frequency, op'ing 4x weekly. This increase originally coincided with the discontinuation of the (seasonal) SEA-COS route but it appears that the Puget Sound route is now ending a couple of weeks earlier -- at the end of October. There also appears to be some frequency reduction in the SEA flight at some point in October. (It's quite difficult to build an accurate schedule of flights for a city on Frontier anymore since the only way to do it is to look up the online schedules for every day of the week, in both directions, month by month. I know of no other way to do it anyway...)
COS-MCO also starts right around November 15 and uses the same a/c as COS-SAN -- on the alternate days of the week. (Another new route for Orlando for anyone keeping track!)
Anyway, it would be interesting to know how the 2 flights from The Springs to the Pacific Northwest did this summer. I'll also be anxious to find out how SAN and MCO are looking for the winter season, and if they will continue next Spring. (Neither route was announced back in May as seasonal...)
F9Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 689 posts, RR: 3 Reply 105, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12839 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 38): Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.
Quoting mariner (Reply 67): CAK? Well, I live in hope for CLE.
Well, you got your wish. Personally, CLE is closer to where I live, so I am happy (or at least happier).
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 73): As of now WN does not offer CLE-DEN nonstop. It looks like everything on WN passes through MDW. There were two flights I saw which are one-stops with no change of aircraft i.e. CLE-MDW-DEN.
The main cities from CLE on WN are MDW, BWI, and BNA.
Quoting mariner (Reply 78): It may be foolish to hope for CLE-MCO - Southwest is starting it, but as a 1 x weekly Saturday.
This is seasonal for WN. It usually goes away in the spring.
Quoting mariner (Reply 80): Frontier probably should start CVG, given the Apple flying from there - which is a motivator in the move to CLE.
But we saw how Delta went nuclear when Frontier started MCI-MSP. Unless there has been a change in the relationship, which may have happened, I'd give CVG a miss.
DL pretty much abandoned CVG. Since DL defended the hub like no-ones business, a lot of people from Cincy would fly out of IND, SDF, DAY, and CMH, all within a two hour drive.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 106, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 12825 times:
Quoting F9Fan (Reply 105): DL pretty much abandoned CVG. Since DL defended the hub like no-ones business, a lot of people from Cincy would fly out of IND, SDF, DAY, and CMH, all within a two hour drive.
I'll stick with history and Frontier's history with Delta is a very ugly one. Hopefully, that may have changed.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 107, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 12714 times:
Quoting SANFan (Reply 104): Anyway, it would be interesting to know how the 2 flights from The Springs to the Pacific Northwest did this summer.
SEA got extended so obviously the loads were there. Not sure if the two routes made money or not though. I never heard anything about PDX though. Also, I believe both were done with an E190, so with the reduction in E190s, that will also be an issue. DOT data is only available through May 2012, but in May, the 4 new COS flew at the following loadfactors:
PDX 85.75
SEA 86.6
PHX 92.96
LAX 92.57
So PDX/SEA did worse than the other two routes, but PDX/SEA are more seasonal so I'd expect the load factors to be higher June-August.
If you want a comparison, in May OMA-LAX, another seasonal route flew at an 83.22 Load factor and as of now, is not set to resume next summer. I imagine PDX/SEA will need to be above 90% for June-August to come back next summer.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 108, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12709 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 92): The issue between us was always (I thought) that I don't think that they came to DEN to kill Frontier.
Quoting mariner (Reply 92): I believe that changed more than somewhat, especially after the auction, but I said that at the time. My interest has always been in how Frontier copes with that - how Frontier survives.
I'm glad you have come around to my point of view. I've never thought that WN decided to do this out of spite, they simply targeted the weakest players. That's what Walmart does. You don't fight AA if you can fight F9. Easy choice. I've been saying this for year. SY and F9 are weak, they are attacking them. AA/UA/DL can't be killed. F9/SY YX/TZ(already) can be. The meek don't inherit the earth despite BB's views. The strong will win. Survival of the fittest.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 94): F9 still offers 4x daily to MDW-DEN in both directions; MDW being WN largest base. F9 also seems to be thriving in SEA where WN has reduced service. WN hasn't run F9 out of BNA where WN maintains a focus city. Interesting!
With the latest 4 station deletions I think F9 is on a very dangerous path in DEN. I posted that they were "over-published" in terms of their schedule for Winter. Now we are seeing the correction. PHL/SMF/etc are valid connect points for these 4/week stations they are adding to dodge WN. If you cut them then you have to depend on the local market. DEN is not MCO. With no feed DEN will die. I think we are witnessing the tipping point of the DEN hub.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 97): Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Instead Republic now asks DOT to consider replacing MKE entirely on its DCA slots and instead allow it to designate OMA and MSN as destinations on the two DCA slots.
Republic contends that grant of slot slide is under exceptional circumstances.
Order 2012-9-20
Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away. F9 can't sustain the rest. Everybody else wants DCA/LGA slots desperately and F9 is playing these games.
Quoting F9Fan (Reply 105): Quoting mariner (Reply 38):
Indeed. I've been advocating that they drop CAK since Southwest/Airtran announced it. I'd prefer CLE.
Quoting mariner (Reply 67):
CAK? Well, I live in hope for CLE.
Well, you got your wish. Personally, CLE is closer to where I live, so I am happy (or at least happier).
If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 109, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12708 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 108): I'm glad you have come around to my point of view. I've never thought that WN decided to do this out of spite, they simply targeted the weakest players.
There you go again - putting words in my mouth, again.
One mo' time - I don't think that Southwest came to DEN to kill Frontier.
If it had, it would have offered a decent price at the auction, rather than the (somewhat insultingly) low price it did offer.
Quoting enilria (Reply 108): If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.
I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 110, posted (8 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 12682 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 109): If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.
I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.
I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day. F9 probably got pushed down to the minority player on the route once WN started it. Right now in CLE UA is the dominate carrier, but F9 is the 2nd option as the low cost choice. If WN starts the route daily, F9 will be pushed down to the 3rd carrier in terms of service and then be worse off.
I think the move was smart because Apple is already in CLE. With the needed reduction in capacity, I think they were left with a choice to reduce CAK from 2 x daily to 4 x weekly, or move over to CLE at 4 x weekly and combine operations into one station. CLE is a larger city and at 4 x weekly, may be able to take the more price sensitive travelers. If they had stayed at CAK at say 4 x weekly, they would have been competing with the same traffic as WN, at a smaller city.
I suspect they will switch over DAY to CVG which fits my argument above as well. I think attacking DL at MSP (MCI-MSP) or attacking NW (LAX-MSP, MEM-FLL/LAS/MCO) was different because both airlines considered those markets (ATL, MSP, MEM) as their hubs. I highly doubt if F9 starts 4 x weekly CVG-DEN that DL will really do anything more maybe add one additional CVG-DEN frequency.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 112, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12532 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 108): Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Quoting enilria (Reply 108): Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away.
DCA-MKE at 625 statute miles (885 km) and DCA-OMA at 995 statute miles (1410 km) are both inter perimeter where DCA-DEN is not. I don't think inner and outer perimeter can be co-mingled in that the FAA has established two separate submission criteria for each slot type. Outer perimeter being 1251 or more statute miles from DCA or 2010 km.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
toltommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3220 posts, RR: 4 Reply 113, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12511 times:
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 110): I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day.
WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.
flyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1919 posts, RR: 11 Reply 114, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 12489 times:
Quoting toltommy (Reply 113): WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.
I don't doubt they will add a second flight. I guess we will see what kind of workings they are going to go with their operations for the next spring/summer schedule. Only reason it's 1x right now and middle of the day is because of scheduling as the aircraft does MDW-CAK-DEN and DEN-CAK-MDW. Just depends on how WN wants to route the aircraft.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 115, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12341 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 109): One mo' time - I don't think that Southwest came to DEN to kill Frontier.
If it had, it would have offered a decent price at the auction, rather than the (somewhat insultingly) low price it did offer.
But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9.
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.
Quoting mariner (Reply 109): Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
If WN adds CLE, then F9 is in a much weaker position than they were in CAK. They will be toast.
I don't understand that reasoning at all. But no matter.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 110): I think what he's saying is that in CAK both WN and F9 had 2 flights a day. F9 probably got pushed down to the minority player on the route once WN started it.
Well, yes, but at a more micro level, CAK airport spent a ton of money promoting Frontier in the area. That's largely wasted now. They are starting all over at CLE. WN can kill them there (to DEN) even more easily.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 112): Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Republic asked the DOT to dismiss its July request to move a single DCA slot from MKE to OMA.
Quoting enilria (Reply 108):
Ultimately these slots will all be to DEN or will go away.
DCA-MKE at 625 statute miles (885 km) and DCA-OMA at 995 statute miles (1410 km) are both inter perimeter where DCA-DEN is not.
I mean that ultimately all "F9" slots will only serve DEN, not that they are going to try to change the perimeter status of their other slots...although they've asked for everything but that.
Quoting toltommy (Reply 113): WN flies CAK-DEN only once a day. For now. With that much capacity leaving the market, they've got to be looking for a way to add a second flight.
I doubt it. They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 116, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12323 times:
Quote: I mean that ultimately all "F9" slots will only serve DEN, not that they are going to try to change the perimeter status of their other slots...although they've asked for everything but that.
What he is saying is that all DCA flights other then DEN will end. I have to agree. MCO would not work because its is served very well and nothing else makes sense.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 117, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12321 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9.
The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist - I don't know why you keep trying to enlist me to your cause. I think Frontier at DEN is largely irrelevant to Southwest - Frontier has never stopped Southwest doing anything it wants to do at DEN, and it is foolish to imagine that Frontier could.
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.
Republic won because Southwest didn't do it's homework about the Republic offer - as the Southwest CEO admitted after the auction.
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.
Southwest is at CAK because of Airtran. Whether is starts DEN-CLE or not is probably irrelevant to Frontier. If Southwest has not done its homework again, it may not understand that.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 118, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 12320 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal.
You STILL don't get it, don't you?! Under the WN deal, Southwest would have killed off the F9 brand and only a very small amount of F9 employees would stayed on a "as needed basis", which meant everyone would have had to re-apply for their jobs. This came straight from CEO Kelly's mouth. None of the F9 employees were guaranteed ANY jobs with WN. Fact.
The Republic deal was much better because it guaranteed jobs for everyone, but some employees would have had to be relocated elsewhere in order to remain a F9 employee. C-Check and the GO were two examples. When Republic became the new owners, I did not have to re-apply for my job. But had WN became the owners, you can bet your bottom dollar that I wouldn't have survived the merger, as with thousands of other F9 employees. Fact.
Why can't you understand this and accept it, Enilria?! Let it go......
Quoting mariner (Reply 117): Republic won because Southwest didn't do it's homework about the Republic offer - as the Southwest CEO admitted after the auction.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 119, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 12270 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim
I always enjoy that somebody feels the need to bring this up every 3 months. I think it simply goes back to that Airline Elitism thing I talked about earlier. People can't stand that Southwest didn't win. It's kinda funny.
I'm sure that the F9 Creditors and Employees (who you seemed to have been referring to as idiots) appreciate your overwhelming concern for them. As for Republics claim, F9 management agreed to the claim. You were talking about business tactics in ongoing threads. Is it suddenly bad that Republic did everything they could to maximize their value from Frontier breaching contract?
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
Flytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 524 posts, RR: 0 Reply 121, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 12121 times:
I think ABE-FLL would be more popular than ABE-DEN, and given the shorter length more feasible year round if attempted by F9. Another reason against ABE-DEN is ABE-DEN would self compete with MDT-DEN. Then again, F9 at TTN goes against F9 at ABE filling as a PHL/EWR alternative.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 123, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12041 times:
Quote: does anyone else think that an F9 MDW to ORD move is in short order?
Supposedly this is not going to happen but it would make so much sense I don't know why they don't just pick up and move to ORD.
kingcavalier From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 1283 posts, RR: 18 Reply 124, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12036 times:
I used to think F9 should move ops from MDW to ORD but now I'm not so sure. ORD is further from downtown than MDW. ORD is more expensive than MDW. AA, UA and now NK operate DEN - ORD so F9 would be the 4th carrier. In MDW, F9 only has WN to compete with.
Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness
Buddys747 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 490 posts, RR: 4 Reply 125, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 12035 times:
I wish F9 would keep MDT-DEN year round. Maybe with PHL-DEN being dropped, it could happen, though I would think by now they would have done it, considering MDT-DEN ends the 27th of October.
FLL did well for FL at MDT and ABE, I think it didn't return in 2011 because of the WN merger. I think once F9 gets more aircraft they can find routes out there that are profitable and ones people want to fly.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 127, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12064 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 126): I doubt that's the only reason. The contract isn't permanent, and if F9 thought they could make more money at CAK long-term I'm sure they'd stay.
It's the dominant reason and the contract has another six years to run.
It isn't just CLE-CUN/PUJ. The aircraft at CLE also funds the PIT, CVG and (as of January PHL) flights.
It's why Frontier flies (non-revenue) CLE-PIT and CLE-CVG.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 130, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 12017 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): But you admit that you expect them to add CLE-DEN because F9 is starting it, so you admit they are targetting F9.
WN is becoming more of a hub and spoke airline, and DEN makes more sense to flow people through to the west coast rather than through PHX and LAS. While I do think some of WN's actions at DEN were directly targeted at F9 (CAK, DAY, CUN), DEN was a glaring hole in WN's network. WN was much more predatory to US at PHL back in 2004 than they are towards F9. I do think they will fly DEN-CLE but if they start that, LAS/PHX-CLE might end as DEN can still serve that traffic. Same goes for SDF. You could look at that and say they started that to knock F9 off the route, but I think DEN-SDF will end up replacing PHX-SDF as it has more connection opportunities.
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): 9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.
How so? WN saw synergies... WN would not have kept any of F9's aircraft long term, and wouldn't have needed many of their employees at out stations as WN served many of the cities already. Their argument to the DOJ about buying F9 increased competition at DEN was laughable. Lastly most corporate employees would've lost their jobs as you don't need two HR or finance departments.
Same thing goes for FL/YX at MKE back in 2007. Most employees were either better off with Republic or in the case at MKE, no worse off as FL wouldn't have needed them in the 1st place.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 132, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11963 times:
Quoting N766UA (Reply 131): Wow, 6 years? I didn't realize it was that long.
It is a seven year contract and this coming winter is the second year.
Quoting N766UA (Reply 131): That's SOP for any charter operator I think. Allegro, Trans Meridian, and USA3000 have all flown CLE-PIT and CVG in addition to their CUN service.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 134, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 11954 times:
If frontier were to start ACY-MCO how would spirit react? It almost seems to hard to imagine them doing nothing but Spirit has prooven ACY-Florida has major potential and is profitable. People are also very use to looking at that airport when flying to Florida. I just think spirit has lost some interest in ACY because its totally competition free and they have more profitable alternative elsewhere. Is there any chance that spirit would just let frontier fly this single route in peace? Frontier would not pose much threat too spirits dominance of the airport and they seem to be looking elsewhere. Would be great for the airport!
wnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 364 posts, RR: 0 Reply 135, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 11967 times:
Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.
Wnfg
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines.
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 136, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11893 times:
With the loss of PVU and SMF, it seems like F9's spokes in the western half of the country are steadily becoming more sparse. SJC, BOI, RNO, and TUC all used to be places that F9 flew to.
Anybody know how Bellingham and Spokane, Washington are doing for F9?
Which cities tend to be higher performers in the system? I would venture to guess DCA, LGA, LAX, SLC, and STL, to name a few. But they all have heavy competition.
It would be sad to see PHX or ATL go, if it actually happens.
rampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 2854 posts, RR: 7 Reply 137, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11883 times:
Quoting Flytravel (Reply 121): I think ABE-FLL would be more popular than ABE-DEN, and given the shorter length more feasible year round if attempted by F9.
Anything Northeast to Anything Florida will be popular. What I was thinking, in addition to that, these cities desire a western connecting option. That said, the schedule efficiencies you mention make sense, and the nearby cannibalization may also be a factor. Well, maybe some day. I can't see the attraction of ACY-DEN that was suggested earlier. I just can't imagine a large enough draw of DEN (or anything in the west) to Atlantic City, and I've not heard of a desire for ACY patrons or management to want a western destination such as DEN or linked through DEN. Maybe there is, IDK.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 138, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 11873 times:
Quoting wnflyguy (Reply 135): Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.
I guess we should classify this as a rumor but it would make some sense and go with recent trends......consolidate operations and get further away from southwest
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 136): Which cities tend to be higher performers in the system? I would venture to guess DCA, LGA, LAX, SLC, and STL, to name a few. But they all have heavy competition.
I really personally doubt LGA is from my personal flights on that route.....its certainly not a real $$$$ earner and uses alot of plane time and fuel for the pretty low average fares on this route now. Delta added two flights from LGA to DEN, SWA added two to LGA and three/two from EWR. Alot of seats have been added to DEN-NYC. There was one time this route(DEN-LGA) was a huge $$$ maker for united.....no longer true
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 139, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 11809 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 136): Anybody know how Bellingham and Spokane, Washington are doing for F9?
I haven't heard much about Spokane (I assume it is okay) and the last figures I have for Bellingham were for July - average 129.5 pax per flight on the A319 (138 seats), but I don't know about revenue/yield.
The rest of the west? There was a lot of talk about Eugene, Oregon, a year or two ago, but maybe that is on the back burner, as is STS (Santa Rosa). STS might have happened with the E190, but it needs the runway extension before it can handle the A319 and that's been delayed by environmental issues. And the A319 might be too much plane.
PSP is coming back for winter and I guess the big question is SBA and the A319, at least in winter. Beyond that, it's probably not the time for experiments and there aren't too many other places in the west that are jumping out at me.
PHX and/or ATL dropped? The only place I've heard it is here, but IF it happened, I assume PHX would become AZA. As above, I wouldn't shed any tears about ATL - if it were dropped in favor of somewhere else in that general area.
Frontier is in uncharted waters. It has a CEO who doesn't give a stuff if people think he is "running away" from Southwest, he is dedicated to one thing - making Frontier a viable, profitable airline. I might wish his p.r. skills were a little better, but people tell me he is an amiable, very knowledgeable man (and tough as boots) who'll take on pretty much anything and he's giving a lot of the p.r. stuff to Bendo ( the COO) and DS.
He also has something to prove - with regard to Southwest.
So I can't guess what Frontier might do - anything is possible, there are no sacred cows. But whatever they do will be geared towards that one thing, at least for the next while - profit trumps growth.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 140, posted (8 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 11787 times:
Quote: FLL did well for FL at MDT and ABE, I think it didn't return in 2011 because of the WN merger. I think once F9 gets more aircraft they can find routes out there that are profitable and ones people want to fly.
Right now we don't know if they will do any FLL p2p flying. So far we can only assume they are doing MCO only.
Quote: Yesterday I flew F9 MDW-DEN-SNA.
Talking with the MDW agents at the C gates they said they were told they would that by Jan they would be moving operations to ORD.
That would make sense time wise and just in general to get away from SWA. Interesting...
nkops From United States of America, joined Jun 2005, 2544 posts, RR: 6 Reply 141, posted (8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 11719 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 134): Is there any chance that spirit would just let frontier fly this single route in peace?
Probably not... remember, FL tried ACY-MCO and when they did Spirit added a third flight and upgraded two of them to a 321 at the time......
Spirit OWNS ACY and makes a hefty profit there as operation costs in ACY are generally low... I dont think NK would just let someone come in on one of their routes and not fight it. I think the reason it seems they show no interest in ACY much is because no one bothers them there, and the station runs very smoothly without corporate interference.
Quoting rampart (Reply 137): I can't see the attraction of ACY-DEN that was suggested earlier.
I had only suggested it because RP will be opening an E190 base in ACY for charter ops, and figured they would have to rotate the aircraft, but this was before I realized the E190 will be leaving the F9 fleet.
Flytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 524 posts, RR: 0 Reply 142, posted (8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 11641 times:
When FL attempted ACY-MCO, it was competing against itself as well, with 2x ACY-ATL->Florida, and a greater number of FL flights to both ATL, MCO out of PHL. To ATL and other connections, the pricing was lower and there was better frequency and change options from PHL.
Anyways, F9 is attempting TTN-MCO. If that doesn't perform well for them, only then I could see F9 considering moving it to ACY. ACY routes to Florida would anyways be less catchment shared with the ABE routes it is offering, than TTN routes are to the ABE routes.
To some extent that is true, but if F9 or WN attemped say MDT-MDW, the carrier would still see that UA would price-match MDT-ORD while offering more frequency. It's not like the JFK/EWR difference. While farther from downtown, I think there is more range of hotel options by ORD which might be better for the VFR/leisure traveler, which F9 will attract.
mcg From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 671 posts, RR: 0 Reply 144, posted (8 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 11591 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 117): The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist -
I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal. What they want are F9's customers, as many of then as they can capture; and they are very good at capturing customers.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 145, posted (8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 11571 times:
Quoting airliner371 (Reply 116): What he is saying is that all DCA flights other then DEN will end. I have to agree. MCO would not work because its is served very well and nothing else makes sense.
Exactly
Quoting mariner (Reply 117): I think Frontier at DEN is largely irrelevant to Southwest
Then why chase them to CLE as you say they will?
Quoting mariner (Reply 117): Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
They were largely there because of F9. It's more likely they add CLE.
Southwest is at CAK because of Airtran.
As you know I was referring to CAK-DEN. They were only flying that because of F9. They had to add CAK as a split station because of it.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118): Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal.
You STILL don't get it, don't you?! Under the WN deal, Southwest would have killed off the F9 brand and only a very small amount of F9 employees would stayed on a "as needed basis",
Who cares about the brand, I am talking about the people. Your comment that only a small number would have stayed on is not based upon anything at all.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118): None of the F9 employees were guaranteed ANY jobs with WN. Fact.
I don't think any employees have been "guaranteed" jobs in any merger. Can I work where on of these guaranteed jobs is?
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 118): The Republic deal was much better because it guaranteed jobs for everyone
Except for the maintenance workers in MKE...and the maintenance workers in DEN...and the HQ staff in DEN...and the RES agents...and the Lynx employees...and...the station employees at the all locations where they switched to contractors...and...well you get the picture. I'm glad those people trusted that guaranteed job promise. Just out of curiosity what has been the change in F9/Lynx employment from the point Republic took over control during Ch11 till now? I don't know it. Do you have the stat?
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130): While I do think some of WN's actions at DEN were directly targeted at F9 (CAK, DAY, CUN), DEN was a glaring hole in WN's network. WN was much more predatory to US at PHL back in 2004 than they are towards F9.
WN learned it couldn't kill a legacy airline and decided to attack the weaker players.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130): Quoting enilria (Reply 115):
9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.
How so? WN saw synergies...
I don't think I said 9 employees, LOL.
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130): WN would not have kept any of F9's aircraft long term
But those 717s are staying??? WN treated the FL employees equitably. Why would they treat the F9 employees worse?
Quoting smoot4208 (Reply 130): and wouldn't have needed many of their employees at out stations as WN served many of the cities already.
Same as FL
Quoting mcg (Reply 144): Quoting mariner (Reply 117):
The issue is whether they came to DEN to kill Frontier, which you have claimed and I resist -
I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal. What they want are F9's customers, as many of then as they can capture; and they are very good at capturing customers.
They attack the weakest player like any good business or lion. F9 is the weakest.
Again, you don't need two GO's. People at the DEN GO was given a choice to relocate to IND. They were not forced to go. They were given a choice. Not very many employers do that nowadays. What Republic did was a very nice gesture.
Quoting enilria (Reply 145): Just out of curiosity what has been the change in F9/Lynx employment from the point Republic took over control during Ch11 till now? I don't know it. Do you have the stat?
Before the auction, we had about 4K plus folks. That number is probably about the same today, give or take 100 folks. But I'm not sure what it is at this very, exact moment as I type this. I'm no longer at F9, I am now with a competitor. And it sure as hell ain't WN.
[quote=enilria (Reply 145): Why would they treat the F9 employees worse?
Because WN originally thought that what they did to the Morris and Muse employees, they could do the same with the Frontier employees. They were wrong. They found out the hard way. Employment laws have sure changed a lot over the years.
We discussed this very topic before. So, why are we discussing it again?! We all thought you understood this a couple years ago.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 148, posted (8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 11413 times:
Quoting mcg (Reply 144): I believe that WN doesn't really care if F9 is dead or alive, they certainly wouldn't set out on a campaign to 'kill' F9 as doing so would probably be illegal.
Frontier would need a trigger to go to the DOT/DOJ as with Sam Addoms in 1998 when he complained about United's predatory practices.
I don't know whether that trigger would be Southwest starting DEN-CLE - I could perhaps make a case for it, but I'm not a lawyer and there are smarter people at Frontier than I.
One of the key figures at Frontier seems to be the new COO - Bendo - who keeps saying "we have to do it smarter."
So they are addressing (line item) every weakness of Frontier and trying to turn it into a strength. This is best seen in the fleet. A major reason why Frontier got into trouble was the over-expansion of the Airbus fleet, back in the Potter days. They kept taking those shiny new A319's. It was thought then that deferring the aircraft would be a perceived weakness, but they had to fly all those aircraft somewhere and maybe some of the destinations - or the frequencies - shouldn't have happened. I'm not sure that 2 x daily DEN-RSW was a good idea except in very high season.
It's a process started, but never finished, of course, by Sean Menke - there are no sacred cows.
It applies across the board - third party bookings costing too much? Do something about it. SMF wants to charge $19 a passenger? We can't afford that - maybe others can.
Gates at DEN have always been a huge bone of contention - so how many gates at DEN do we actually need, or can we do it smarter?
Three carriers on SDF? That doesn't work for Frontier. We have to be at CLE - why do we need to be at CAK as well?
Can we make a dime out of PHL in winter, with four carriers on the route and with fuel at these prices?
The negative is an external - this is how Frontier has always done things, therefore this is how Frontier should always do things. But that's just silly, because maybe - just maybe - Frontier was doing it wrong, or competitive issues have changed.
It isn't an easy process but it is an essential one - there is no place for sentiment and there are no sacred cows.
freakyrat From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 538 posts, RR: 1 Reply 149, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11031 times:
Some Good News for F9: The Animals should be happy. The DEN-SBN-DEN flights operated with Airbus A319 aircraft on both the inaugural weekend Oct 11th and the Oct 18th weekend which are Notre Dame football home weekends with Stanford and Brigham Young respectively appear to be SOLD OUT. Way to go fans. There is such a high demand for seats in the SBN market these weekends that Delta is running mainline on the Sunday after the games to not only the usual SBN-DTW market but also SBN-ATL. I cannot recall anytime that they ran mainline after a game to ATL.
IllinoisMan From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 150, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11031 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 25): How is it "more expensive" to buy the product?
F9 may have have cute and cuddly animals on the tails of their planes, but the feeling you get after flying with them is getting less warm and less fuzzy. The freshly baked cookies are long gone as an in-flight snack, and now it looks like my frequent flyer miles might also be on the chopping block. If I book through Kayak I will not get seat assignments until check-in, I'll get half the number of frequent flyer miles, and might even get stuck with higher fees.
Quoting rampart (Reply 27): Was F9 ever a consideration for you, Strawman... er, I mean, IllinoisMan?
Even though I transferred the majority of my 400,000 F9 miles to DL, I kept a chunk of them on F9 for business/trips out west. Most of these miles are from the "good ole days", you know, when YX was still around and dinner was served on china plates was served to every passenger who had a paid ticket, including a glass or more of wine.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 878 posts, RR: 1 Reply 151, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 11007 times:
Quote: but the feeling you get after flying with them is getting less warm and less fuzzy.
Hmmm....
Quote: you know, when YX was still around and dinner was served on china plates was served to every passenger who had a paid ticket, including a glass or more of wine.
Maybe this is why you bash F9. YX was dyeing with or without Republic/Frontier.
Quote: If I book
Something tells me you wouldn't book anyway so it doesn't really mater. And you are smart enough to go to F9 website to book so it really doesn't affect you.
F9animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 4739 posts, RR: 30 Reply 152, posted (8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 10979 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 115): F9 employees would have been far better off with WN's deal. Republic won because of the idiots buying false promises and Republic huge and ridiculous damages claim.
Idiots buying false promises? Care to elaborate on who the idiots are?
Quoting enilria (Reply 145): Except for the maintenance workers in MKE...and the maintenance workers in DEN...and the HQ staff in DEN...and the RES agents...and the Lynx employees...and...the station employees at the all locations where they switched to contractors...and...well you get the picture. I'm glad those people trusted that guaranteed job promise. Just out of curiosity what has been the change in F9/Lynx employment from the point Republic took over control during Ch11 till now? I don't know it. Do you have the stat?
Let me add on to this. Had WN gotten F9, 99% of the employees would have been long gone by now. No res agents, no ramp agents, no customer service agents, no maintenance workers, no aircraft appearance agents, no flight attendants, no corporate employees, and the list goes on. Maybe a handful of pilots, but that is it. WN was going to remove F9 from the earth, and all F9 employees would have been forced to the streets.
Republic has kept a majority of the F9 employees, except for MKE which was really never a part of F9 to begin with. Had Bedford kept Frontier and Midwest separate to begin with....YX would have been gone much sooner, and the bleeding would have stopped loooooong ago. Midwest was a mess long long long long long long long before RAH bought them.
WN was no savior to the workers. Had WN promised to keep a majority of the workers, then I think the employees would have been gung ho for WN.
By the way, how many times do we have to visit the same subject with you? Have you considered getting checked for memory loss? And, when do you plan on taking the axe out of F9? I know it angers you that this wonderful airline is still flying, and turning around. Have you considered therapy?
CarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 153, posted (8 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 10831 times:
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 150): If I book through Kayak I will not get seat assignments until check-in, I'll get half the number of frequent flyer miles, and might even get stuck with higher fees.
exactly, just go to the Frontier website and book, like that is a chore to do. But you now get a round trip flight with miles for 20,000, that is better than most other airlines. plus book classic and you get 125% of the miles, or better yet, book classic plus and get 150% of the miles. We know you don't like Frontier, but if you did a little research, you would know these things.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 154, posted (8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10689 times:
Quoting F9animal (Reply 152): 99% of the employees would have been long gone by now. No res agents, no ramp agents, no customer service agents, no maintenance workers, no aircraft appearance agents, no flight attendants, no corporate employees, and the list goes on.
Quoting F9animal (Reply 152): By the way, how many times do we have to visit the same subject
There is no basis to think that WN would have fired 99% of the employees and the AirTran merger points to quite the opposite.
smoot4208 From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1224 posts, RR: 12 Reply 155, posted (8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10663 times:
Difference in being that FL brought growth to WN. F9/WN would have neen synergies. WN buying F9 would be comparable to DL buying FL. DL would not have a huge need for mamu FL employees.
CarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 156, posted (8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10656 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 154): There is no basis to think that WN would have fired 99% of the employees and the AirTran merger points to quite the opposite.
I guess the question is that if you have flights out of DEN and you are only adding a couple extra flight, just as an example. You may only need 4 or 5 more rampers. When F9 has 400 rampers, the majority of those would probably lose their jobs. Same goes for CS. I understand that all mergers are different. With Airtran, will WN really need 2 different marketing groups, or financial groups etc. Are they adding a lot more flights into and out of Airtran cities to where they needed the employees. Closing some airtran cities of course, did those employees lose their jobs or were they offered positions elsewhere in the system. There are so many questions over what ifs etc that it is hard to put a number on it.
For F9 in particular, most of the office jobs, marketing, advertising, finance, reservations, ops, etc, would have made it through the merger with their jobs. And concerning the rampers/CS, well i doubt WN would have added enough flights to keep most of them.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21245 posts, RR: 19 Reply 157, posted (8 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10652 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 154): the AirTran merger points to quite the opposite.
They are different in kind, I think. The F9 merger was about nothing but eliminating the competition. The FL merger was about ATL access, with elimination of a (limited) competitor as a side effect.
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 150): F9 may have have cute and cuddly animals on the tails of their planes, but the feeling you get after flying with them is getting less warm and less fuzzy.
The fares are great. The airplanes are clean and run on time. The onboard product is still better than just about any other domestic carrier. What's not to like? I fly F9 whenever the schedules permit (which isn't as much as I'd like).
Quoting IllinoisMan (Reply 150): Most of these miles are from the "good ole days", you know, when YX was still around and dinner was served on china plates was served to every passenger who had a paid ticket, including a glass or more of wine.
F9 isn't YX. F9 never was YX. F9 never claimed that they were going to become YX. F9 is, well, F9. And they offer - and have long offered - a nice onboard product.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 158, posted (8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10640 times:
Quoting enilria (Reply 154): There is no basis to think that WN would have fired 99% of the employees and the AirTran merger points to quite the opposite.
Enliria, listen man..... WN CEO Kelly was the one that explicitly said that none if the F9 employees were going to keep their jobs. It was on a FAQ that WN wrote for everyone to see on the Internet (which is now gone), and they were only going to keep a very small select few on an "as needed basis".
WN learned the hard way that they cannot run a business like that and employment laws have changed since, hence why the FL employees are now WN employees.
Can we now move on from this please?
Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 156): For F9 in particular, most of the office jobs, marketing, advertising, finance, reservations, ops, etc, would have made it through the merger with their jobs.
With Republic, yes.
With WN, no.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
There's a wonderful line at the end of episode 9 of the HBO WW2 series "Band of Brothers." The men of Easy Company get the news that Hitler has shot himself and one GI says that he should done it three years earlier and saved them from the war.
To which the Officer replies. "But - he didn't."
I feel the same way about the Southwest bid for Frontier. Things would obviously have been radically different if Southwest had won the auction.
CarsAir04 From United States of America, joined Jun 2007, 142 posts, RR: 1 Reply 160, posted (8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 10587 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 158): Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 156):
For F9 in particular, most of the office jobs, marketing, advertising, finance, reservations, ops, etc, would have made it through the merger with their jobs.
With Republic, yes.
With WN, no.
correct, i missed the word "would not have" which is what I meant to say, thanks for correcting that!
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21245 posts, RR: 19 Reply 162, posted (8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 10434 times:
Quoting azstar (Reply 7): Frontier alienated their business travelers a long time ago when they reduced frequencies on almost every route, and went to the less than daily model. A business travel simply can't fly F9 in most cases, even if they wanted to.
I've puzzled over this for the past couple of weeks, and I'm not sure I agree. For many, perhaps most, business travelers, F9's network has never been an option for all travel because it simply has not been robust enough. One hub (or even two hubs in the MKE days) isn't good enough. So as F9 has cut frequencies and cut MKE, it has reduced the number of options it offers for business travelers, but I don't know that someone who booked F9 as one of a handful of options five years ago would not book F9 now.
I use F9 for business travel from time to time. Typically, it's when I have a lot of flexibility (say I have to be in SNA at 9:00 a.m., so I have to go at some point the day before but it doesn't really matter when) or when I need the last flight back to Nashville from somewhere in the mountain or pacific time zones. I just booked a trip to ABQ today. I'm flying WN out, but F9's 5:10 p.m. departure from ABQ is an hour later than just about anyone else and I'm still home by 11:00 p.m. I booked the ABQ trip by schedule, and F9's schedule was the best.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
airlinewatcher1 From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 62 posts, RR: 0 Reply 163, posted (8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 10377 times:
It's hard to know for sure if Frontier's employees would have been better off if Southwest had bought them out instead of Republic. But I will say that I don't necessarily think F9 is any better off today than they were before Republic owned them. A full-service, independent carrier had never been bought out by a "regional operator" before. This was unchartered territory and in the end it didn't seem to work out too well for Republic. As much as I like F9, I would feel more secure working at WN.
The good thing about the Republic buyout was that F9 was allowed to remain in the skies - with their friendly employees and clean, newer Airbus planes and the cute talking animals. They have a great product, and in many ways arguably better then WN. I would really hate to see them go. But one thing that bothers me about F9 is how quickly they enter and exit markets, PVU, PHL, ICT, BOI, TUC, CAK, SMF, to name just a few. They unfortunately do not have a good track record when it comes to sticking with markets long-term. And the closure of the MKE hub was a big disappointment. If FL/WN had not come charging in that market with a vengeance, perhaps the F9 hub in MKE would still exist today. I can only speculate. But I really do wish F9 the best of luck and I do not wish them to fail. Perhaps their new motto should be "the little airline that could."
For what it's worth, I did a comparison of flight frequencies between WN and F9 for most of Denver's more popular routes, and for the most part they seemed pretty equivalent. I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes for business travelers, though. Even though WN has more flights, I would think F9 would still be a viable option in most cases.
Here is a sampling for flight frequencies for Tuesday, October 16, 2012:
DEN - MDW WN - 8 F9 - 3
DEN - LGA WN - 2 F9 - 3
DEN - DCA WN - 0 F9 - 3
DEN - IAD WN - 2 F9 - 0
DEN - BWI WN - 3 F9 - 0
DEN - ATL WN - 2 F9 - 2
DEN - MCO WN - 3 F9 - 2
DEN - DFW WN - 0 F9 - 6
DEN - IAH WN - 0 F9 - 1
DEN - HOU WN - 4 F9 - 0
DEN - MCI WN - 5 F9 - 5
DEN - STL WN - 4 F9 - 3
DEN - ABQ WN - 3 F9 - 2
DEN - SLC WN - 6 F9 - 5
DEN - PHX WN - 9 F9 - 4
DEN - LAS WN - 9 F9 - 6
DEN - LAX WN - 7 F9 - 4
DEN - SFO WN - 4 F9 - 4
DEN - SEA WN - 4 F9 - 4
DEN - PDX WN - 4 F9 - 4
DEN - OMA WN - 3 F9 - 2
DEN - MSP WN - 4 F9 - 4
DEN - DTW WN - 2 F9 - 2
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 165, posted (8 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 10367 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 163): Perhaps their new motto should be "the little airline that could."
I like it, but Frontier was being called that - the little airline that could - back in 1998 when I first started following the airline. It still fits, though.
It has been one of the great roller coaster journeys of my life. It still is.
Flytravel From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 524 posts, RR: 0 Reply 166, posted (8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10145 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 148): We have to be at CLE - why do we need to be at CAK as well?
Can we make a dime out of PHL in winter, with four carriers on the route and with fuel at these prices?
Some out of the box thinking: ACY-CLE-DEN. The PHL-CLE fares and NYC-CLE nonstop fares that I see one month out mid week are close to $900 r/t..
The only below $300 fare with a 1 stop is PHL-ATL-CAK on FL and matched by DL. It's cheaper to fly to the west coast over flying to Ohio, unless one goes down to BWI.
With the loss of PHL-DEN, it's less reason to fly TTN-MCO frequently to build points on Frontier to redeem it for a westcoast bound travel if PHL-DEN is no longer available.
I suppose it is just as out of the box as TTN-MCO, which should move to become ACY-MCO imo.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 168, posted (8 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 10128 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 163): It's hard to know for sure if Frontier's employees would have been better off if Southwest had bought them out instead of Republic.
No, it's not hard. The writing was on the walls at Love Field and at Tower Road......as well as the FAQ that WN wrote for all to see on the Internet. That's pretty hard to ignore, given the fact of what WN did to Muse and Morris. Their history speaks volumes.
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 163): As much as I like F9, I would feel more secure working at WN.
As a new hire yes. As an employee caught in the middle of this would be "merger", not a stinkin' chance in hell, I tell ya.
Now, let's move on from this issue please......
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
NWADTWE16 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 242 posts, RR: 0 Reply 169, posted (8 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 9993 times:
Meanwhile, while everyone discusses F9 demise LOL..i run into the problem of them having NO AVAILABILTY for booking almost every day on every route someone needs. This is a good thing, i know, i know...the yields, but i can say to that their prices have gone up so im thinking they are not only nearly 100% LF but on higher yields. I expect that as F9 gets its house in order under this new leadership we will see some healthy expansion and a leaner, meaner ANIMAL for 2013. Im all for it, and the clients LOVE them...
floridaflyboy From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1985 posts, RR: 0 Reply 170, posted (8 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 9810 times:
Employees are always going to suffer when times are tough. Quietly Frontier has replaced employees with third party vendors in a number of stations. I assume this is Ashcrofts doing. Basically bringing over what he did at Allegiant.
Why would the runway length be an issue? Unless you are thinking about additional weight restrictions between TTN-DEN. With that said I would think there would be more vacation luggage and pax between TTN-MCO (mouse central)
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 173, posted (8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9577 times:
Quoting airlinewatcher1 (Reply 163): For what it's worth, I did a comparison of flight frequencies between WN and F9 for most of Denver's more popular routes, and for the most part they seemed pretty equivalent. I'm not sure how much of a difference this makes for business travelers, though. Even though WN has more flights, I would think F9 would still be a viable option in most cases.
But southwest has a large network that can reroute business people on the too frequent weather/mainenance or ATC delays nowdays.
Plus for LA southwest has tons of n/s flights to BUR, ONT, SNA, and LAX to get you close to your destination for SFO they have SJC, SFO, and OAK for New York they have EWR and LGA etc etc they can get you closer to your meeting/business trip destination and can actually re route you in a problem with a much larger network.
Southwest kills frontier on frequencies and destinations if you really add up metro areas and is more reliable for business travelers. Go to Denver Airport and see the customer service lines at Denver in high winds, bad weather or delays of any type it is the longest lines you will ever see at an airport as Frontier has no way to reroute people without rebooking on other airlines it would be really rough on frequent travellers. I know its rare but those customer service lines are out of this world as they have to rebook on other airlines and everything is slow with a one hub airline and rebooking all on other carriers. The lines are rediculous when you then compare it to southwest or united at denver on the same day. Frontier is mainly a leisure airline for these reasons which i think the airline is fine with
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21245 posts, RR: 19 Reply 174, posted (8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 9580 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 173): Go to Denver Airport and see the customer service lines at Denver in high winds, bad weather or delays of any type it is the longest lines you will ever see at an airport as Frontier has no way to reroute people
without rebooking on other airlines it would be really rough on frequent travellers.
Of course, WN will not rebook on other carriers, which comes with its own set of problems.
Speaking for myself and most of the business travelers I know, we generally take "rebooking" in to our own hands, regardless of the operator. Find yourself a seat and get the refund later seems to be the name of the game. In that regard, F9 and WN - both of which offer refundable fares that are much more affordable than the legacies and painless, no questions asked refunds in IROPS situations - come out ahead.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 158): WN CEO Kelly was the one that explicitly said that none if the F9 employees were going to keep their jobs. It was on a FAQ that WN wrote for everyone to see on the Internet (which is now gone), and they were only going to keep a very small select few on an "as needed basis".
Let's be a bit more accurate about what was said. WN management never said that "none if [sic] the F9 employees were going to keep their jobs;" they said that they weren't going to guarantee jobs for F9 employees. But they also said they'd need many people as the Frontier flying at DEN would have transferred over to Southwest. Keep in mind, Republic never promised to keep everyone on at Frontier, either -- they were just less explicit about it.
But to frame the issue in another way, why would Southwest have wanted SWAPA and FAPA to negotiate a seniority/transition agreement between themselves if the plan was to simply phase out the Frontier flying and not keep on any of the Frontier pilots. That agreement would only be necessary if Southwest had intended to keep some portion of the F9 pilots.
Quoting CarsAir04 (Reply 156): Closing some airtran cities of course, did those employees lose their jobs or were they offered positions elsewhere in the system.
Virtually all of the closed AirTran cities were staffed by outsourced employees (I believe SRQ is an exception). IIRC the affected employees were offered jobs elsewhere in the WN system if they were willing to relocate.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 158): WN learned the hard way that they cannot run a business like that and employment laws have changed since, hence why the FL employees are now WN employees.
The "employment laws" didn't change in the year between the failed bid for F9 and the successful bid for FL. UA didn't keep all of the pre-merger back-office employees from CO & UA; thousands lost their jobs thanks to the merger. The FL folks are still there because WN wants them.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 177, posted (8 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 9251 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 171): Why would the runway length be an issue? Unless you are thinking about additional weight restrictions between TTN-DEN. With that said I would think there would be more vacation luggage and pax between TTN-MCO (mouse central)
I was thinking if F9 would have a weight penalty as DEN is 1576 plus winter headwinds and MCO is only 896.
It looks like RW has renegotiated their payments with EMB.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 178, posted (8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 9161 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 177): I was thinking if F9 would have a weight penalty as DEN is 1576 plus winter headwinds and MCO is only 896.
Considering the two distances between TTN-DEN and TTN-MCO the DEN flight would potentially have less overall weight with the extra fuel burn. If memory serves one gallon of fuel such as military specification JP-5 which is a kerosene based fuel weighed right at 6.7 pounds per gallon with some variations.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
AirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 26 Reply 179, posted (8 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 9140 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): Let's be a bit more accurate about what was said. WN management never said that "none if [sic] the F9 employees were going to keep their jobs;"
Uhm, indirectly, they did. They said that they would keep on board some employees on an "as needed basis". That was ZERO guarantee that anyone was going to be a WN employee after the fact. Again, it was all there for all to see that WN wrote on that FAQ. I'm sure Mariner would back me up on this one.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): But they also said they'd need many people as the Frontier flying at DEN would have transferred over to Southwest.
No, they did not. They were only going to keep people during the transition period up to two years. Anything after that, who knows what would have happened to those people. A lot of employees, including myself, assumed that no one would survive anything given the fact what WN did to Muse and Morris. We based our desire to be Republic off this very fact. Plus, BB said his goal was to preserve jobs....and he did. This was very well documented, and put out in the open for everyone to see online.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): Keep in mind, Republic never promised to keep everyone on at Frontier, either -- they were just less explicit about it.
BB stated that his goal was to keep jobs. He never hid that fact. SM never hid that fact either. It was documented.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): why would Southwest have wanted SWAPA and FAPA to negotiate a seniority/transition agreement between themselves if the plan was to simply phase out the Frontier flying and not keep on any of the Frontier pilots.
Obviously, you don't read the thread. As stated by other posters here, WN needed the blessing of both unions to get the deal to go through, otherwise we would be seeing a US labor type problem. WN does not want that.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): The "employment laws" didn't change in the year between the failed bid for F9 and the successful bid for FL.
No, no, no. You misunderstood what I meant. What I meant was that at the time WN bought Morris and Muse vs. the time that WN bought FL, there was a lot of employment laws changed during those times. The McCaskill-Bond Amendment was not around when WN bought out Muse and Morris, IIRC.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 176): The FL folks are still there because WN wants them.
It is not about them being "wanted" by WN, it is about not repeating the same mistake twice here. And that mistake was treating the F9'ers like dirt. That is how they learned the hard way.
This is my last post on this WN/F9 employee issue, lets DROP it and move on. What happened, happened. Let's move on, shall we?
Let it go! End of discussion.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
ScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6364 posts, RR: 34 Reply 180, posted (8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 9046 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): They said that they would keep on board some employees on an "as needed basis". That was ZERO guarantee that anyone was going to be a WN employee after the fact.
There is a very wide difference between saying that NONE of the F9 employees would be kept on (as you claimed) and Southwest's statement that they would keep some employees as-needed.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): They were only going to keep people during the transition period up to two years. Anything after that, who knows what would have happened to those people. A lot of employees, including myself, assumed that no one would survive anything given the fact what WN did to Muse and Morris.
Citing Morris Air as an example of WN mistreating a merger partner doesn't exactly further your purpose; the VAST majority of Morris employees were kept on at WN. Many Muse/TranStar employees found jobs at Southwest after TranStar shut down -- but Muse had never been profitable in its entire history.
BB states many goals but makes few actual promises. He didn't keep many jobs around among the Midwest flight crews. And he moved maintenance jobs out of DEN in an attempt to bust the union at Frontier.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): WN needed the blessing of both unions to get the deal to go through, otherwise we would be seeing a US labor type problem.
If WN were only planning to operate F9 for 24 months and then shut it down, there would have been no US-type labor problem. If they weren't planning to keep the F9 pilots, there would have been no need to negotiate seniority lists, a fence for DEN, etc. -- because the F9 DEN operation would have been shut down and all the employees on the street with no job. They would only care to have the pilots negotiate an agreement if they actually intended to keep some or all of the F9 pilots.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): What I meant was that at the time WN bought Morris and Muse vs. the time that WN bought FL, there was a lot of employment laws changed during those times. The McCaskill-Bond Amendment was not around when WN bought out Muse and Morris, IIRC.
Morris employees weren't mistreated by Southwest. And McCaskill-Bond applies to labor integration between unions. Arguably the F9 pilots have treated the Republic pilots just as badly in their attempt to avoid integration between the pilot groups.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): It is not about them being "wanted" by WN, it is about not repeating the same mistake twice here. And that mistake was treating the F9'ers like dirt.
The true difference lies in AirTran management being behind the deal; Frontier management didn't want a deal with Southwest.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 181, posted (8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 9017 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 180): The true difference lies in AirTran management being behind the deal; Frontier management didn't want a deal with Southwest.
Not just management. Very few people at Frontier wanted it.
It seems weird to be reliving this - there were so many reasons why it didn't happen. Airbus, for example, didn't have a vote unless their interests were threatened. Southwest threatened those interests with the first bid, so - Airbus had a vote, and it wasn't in favor of Southwest.
Sure, Frontier wanted keep keep its brand, but it had a fiduciary duty, especially to the unsecured creditors, and if Southwest had offered a price which recognised all the issues, it would have happened, whatever anyone thought - whatever the pilot issues:
Southwest didn’t get its union to agree with Frontier’s, and that meant the end of Southwest’s bid because the Dallas-based carrier wanted the deal in place before bidding began.
But Frontier liked a lot more about Republic’s bid than we knew going in. Not only would Republic keep Frontier flying as Frontier (Southwest would have absorbed it and ended the brand), but also keep plans to add more Airbus planes and continue the fight out of Denver, which is going to be a brutal marketplace for all three major carriers doing battle there – Frontier, Southwest and United. That’s actually great news for travelers, who are going to see cheap fares by the dozen."
Which, of course, came true. However, there was more to it than that - Southwest simply had not done its homework.
Here’s some criticism from one airline advisor, Mo Garfinkle, on Southwest’s performance, from the same article:
This SW management team was ill-equipped to play in the Frontier bankruptcy process. It seemed not to understand the dynamics of the process or the obvious bottlenecks and complexities involved. It was naïve and it didn’t know it. It underestimated Republic and its talented management team and it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders. Could it have won Frontier with a better conceived plan? You never know, but it chances would have been greatly enhanced."
Mr. Kelly pretty much confirmed that lack of homework immediately after the auction, when he said:
Asked in the WSJ interview about Southwest's failed Frontier bid, Kelly admitted that his company was "probably a little late getting into the game. Unbeknown to us, Republic had already formulated its own plan."
That lack of homework was also reflected in BB's comment after Southwest's first bid - that he saw no reason to raise his offer.
FRNT787 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1285 posts, RR: 16 Reply 182, posted (8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 8990 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 180): And he moved maintenance jobs out of DEN in an attempt to bust the union at Frontier.
I think much of the reason was also to avoid DENs taxes on aircraft parts. Thats a big reason why COS was to become a maintenance base if I recall. Not to mention having a much cheaper hangar option in MKE coupled with millions in incentives. But that is also history now
"We have a right to fail, because failure makes us grow" --Glenn Beck
slcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 2456 posts, RR: 0 Reply 183, posted (8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8942 times:
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 178): Considering the two distances between TTN-DEN and TTN-MCO the DEN flight would potentially have less overall weight with the extra fuel burn. If memory serves one gallon of fuel such as military specification JP-5 which is a kerosene based fuel weighed right at 6.7 pounds per gallon with some variations.
Wait sorry maybe im confused. I dont think TTN runway would be any problem for the 319 on landing of course even fully loaded and every bag possible it would be the takeoff to Denver. TTN runway is 6,600 feet long which actually still might not be a problem for a 319 at sea level in a not very often hot destination? Its not a hot and high spot like MEX or anything but maybe someone whos more of an expert on the 319 can chime in.
ACY for example has a long 10,000 foot runway takeoff to Denver is clearly no problem from there.
I am trying to shift the discussion away from the old southwest merger talk we have living in the past and i really wish we could see TTN or ACY to Denver one day so i am interested in TTN runway personally
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 184, posted (8 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 8942 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 183): I dont think TTN runway would be any problem for the 319 on landing of course even fully loaded and every bag possible it would be the takeoff to Denver.
I thought that too, but I;m not technically minded. However, they are doing something to the runway at TTN, which would affect landing, I guess (?), not take off.
"Trenton-Mercer Airport will receive $13.4 million in federal grants for safety improvements, officials said Friday.
The money for the Trenton-Mercer Airport will be used to install an Engineered Material Arresting System (EMAS) on main runway 6-24 and to conduct an Airport Wildlife Hazard Assessment, county officials said. An EMAS bed contains crushable concrete blocks that will predictably crush under the weight of an aircraft, the purpose of which is to stop an aircraft overrun while minimizing the potential of human injury or aircraft damage. This federal grant is for the second phase of the EMAS project – Main Runway 6-24 – which is expected to begin in early spring 2013. The first phase on Crosswind Runway 16-34 is under construction."
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 185, posted (8 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 8846 times:
Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 183): I dont think TTN runway would be any problem for the 319
I don't either. The content was about a 319 landing at TTN because of the runway length. I had pointed out that F9 already flies the 319 between TTN-MCO. so TTN wouldn't be a problem. The writer came back with potential weight concerns. My intent was to point out that a 319 flying between TTN-DEN would most likely take off heavier out of TTN with more fuel. Hence the conversion gallon to pounds.
In my neck of the woods I have have seen a lot of take off and landings with aircraft larger than the A319 on runways in the in the 4000-5000 foot range with interesting turns around mountains and passes. The most remarkable being a USAF Galaxy C-5A at Juneau (JNU) which according to the aircraft commander took every inch of runway and a lot of brakes. The departure took a lot of engines, the percussion shook the windows in the buildings downtown eight miles from the airport as it was climbing out. Another was a CO 757 which made a emergency landing in Sitka, Alaska enroute between IAH-ANC. Sitka runway gives the appearance your landing on a aircraft carrier.
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
Quoting mariner (Reply 181): Frontier liked a lot more about Republic’s bid than we knew going in.
Quoting mariner (Reply 181): it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders.
I don't see the disagreement. If Frontier management had pushed for a deal with Southwest (and sold the benefits of higher pay and history of job security at Southwest), it's likely that the employees would have supported the deal.
Quoting mariner (Reply 181): That lack of homework was also reflected in BB's comment after Southwest's first bid - that he saw no reason to raise his offer.
In the end, Republic DID effectively raise its bid by waiving its unsecured claim against Frontier.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 185): In my neck of the woods I have have seen a lot of take off and landings with aircraft larger than the A319 on runways in the in the 4000-5000 foot range with interesting turns around mountains and passes.
There's an enormous difference between scheduled commercial service and both military flying and emergency landings.
Quoting GentFromAlaska (Reply 185): I had pointed out that F9 already flies the 319 between TTN-MCO. so TTN wouldn't be a problem. The writer came back with potential weight concerns. My intent was to point out that a 319 flying between TTN-DEN would most likely take off heavier out of TTN with more fuel. Hence the conversion gallon to pounds.
And thus the range issue. TTN-DEN goes against prevailing winds so the range problem is even worse given the runway length at TTN.
GentFromAlaska From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2074 posts, RR: 2 Reply 187, posted (8 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8710 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 186): TTN-DEN goes against prevailing winds so the range problem is even worse given the runway length at TTN.
Sometimes but not always. East to West flying is generally well managed with altitude adjustments or course deviations where necessary. An engineer might argue the extra fuel weight would also help with stability issues. Where thrust and lift enter the equation, the 319's I've seen are a little smaller than the 737 I'm sure the flight decks have a good handle on what can or cannot be accomplished at TTN.
In the late 60's we took off from TTN on a Eastern 727 enroute to FRA. via KEF. As an eight year old at the time we were shuttled to TTN from McGuire AFB NJ which was temporarily closed .
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22724 posts, RR: 88 Reply 188, posted (8 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 8680 times:
Quoting ScottB (Reply 186): If Frontier management had pushed for a deal with Southwest (and sold the benefits of higher pay and history of job security at Southwest), it's likely that the employees would have supported the deal.
I don't know what might have been. There may have been too much ugly history to overcome.
Quoting ScottB (Reply 186): In the end, Republic DID effectively raise its bid by waiving its unsecured claim against Frontier.
I'm not aware that Republic wrote off any debt, unsecured or otherwise. It only waived any repayment at that time.
is a state by state listing of airport growth or shrinkage as it relates to airline schedules and frequencies. This is not airline specific. Click on the State for specific airports within any given state. These metrics are also available using the RITA data. This is a quick snapshot.
Tennessee for example shows significant shrinkage at MEM and TYS while CHA and Jackson MKL located roughly half way between Nashville and Memphis are showing growth spurts. BNA is what I would call maintaining.
[Edited 2012-09-26 09:20:31]
Man can be taken from Alaska. Alaska can never be taken from the man.
enilria From Canada, joined Feb 2008, 6137 posts, RR: 13 Reply 190, posted (8 months 18 hours ago) and read 8273 times:
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): No, they did not. They were only going to keep people during the transition period up to two years. Anything after that, who knows what would have happened to those people.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 158): Enliria, listen man..... WN CEO Kelly was the one that explicitly said that none if the F9 employees were going to keep their jobs.
ScottB did a fine job correcting the record on that one, so I'll let it lie.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 179): A lot of employees, including myself, assumed that no one would survive anything given the fact what WN did to Muse and Morris.
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This, or ABE, would be very interesting. I'd certainly look at it, as an alternate to EWR for me. But maybe the cuts just now have made enough room for the wave of additions a few weeks ago. Borrowing from Peter to pay Paul, any new additions may need to wait for other cuts, or new aircraft. 
I give Frontier a lot of credit for these types of routes. Some work amazingly. SBA, PHF, BKG, and others. I don't know why this site seems so upset when frontier launches a route less than daily, or they fly to large cities less than 5 times a day, etc. Frontier is not Southwest, United, Delta or any of the others. When they try to be, they fail. Now, they are trying something else. If the Q3 numbers tell us anything, it might just be that it MAY be working. I don't know. Maybe as the fleet grows, Provo can return. I will say it seems to have lasted far longer than any of the naysayers claimed it would.
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