OH-LGA From Denmark, joined Oct 1999, 1428 posts, RR: 22 Reply 1, posted (8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1786 times:
I still see AZ operating LAX-FCO in the SkyTeam timetable...
The problems that befall Alitalia are not really unique to AZ. Generally, West Coast - Europe is a difficult thing to manage profitably, even given substantial demand. It always comes back to the full loads don't equal profits explanation. Longer, thinner routes may not hit that right mix of revenue and effective aircraft utilization. It takes more than one frame to operate a West Coast - continental Europe flight, and even then the question is can they fill it up? A few specific reasons that could be considered come to mind:
a) Italian heritage may be now more than one generation back, decreasing VFR (leisure) demand
b) VFR demand is highly price-sensitive and seasonal, which depresses the yields on a non-stop flight and limits year-round operation.
c) Demand can be sufficiently covered by connections over East Coast or European hubs
d) Onward connection potential is limited given geographical location of FCO, or gained only at the expense of lower yields
e) Insufficient business demand = limited high yield traffic
Even fairly busy West Coast - Europe hub-to-hub routes (ie LH SFO-MUC) operate less than daily during the winter. The right mix of demand and yield just isn't there, and can be sufficiently covered by connecting points.
Head in the clouds... yet feet planted firmly on the ground.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16246 posts, RR: 52 Reply 2, posted (8 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1672 times:
DL has suspended their JFK-FCO flight this Winter, UA also suspended their EWR-FCO flight this Winter. Both New Jersey and New York have way more people of Italian descent than the entire State of California. It's just the overall state of the economy.
alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4656 posts, RR: 45 Reply 4, posted (8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1550 times:
Quoting STT757 (Reply 2): DL has suspended their JFK-FCO flight this Winter, UA also suspended their EWR-FCO flight this Winter. Both New Jersey and New York have way more people of Italian descent than the entire State of California. It's just the overall state of the economy.
With DL they can afford to CXL JFK-FCO as their metal-neutral JV partner AZ will continue to operate daily (AZ610/611) and 2x on some days (AZ608/609).
It will be interesting to see how the winter pans out for all carriers given the amount of cuts relative to previous years.
flyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4930 posts, RR: 53 Reply 5, posted (8 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1535 times:
Has nothing to do with size of market - but rather the yield / premium vs. leisure mix.
AZ's load factor on LAXFCO is in the high 80s but only seems to make money in the Jun-Sep period where yields reach their highest levels.
The Italy market needs a KLM type operator with very dense config's - bringing overall CASM down to a level where such operations can become profitable. With Alitalia reconfig on the 772 going 10 abreast in Y - this might make this an even more profitable operation for them.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10647 posts, RR: 100 Reply 6, posted (8 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1340 times:
Quoting flyyul (Reply 5): The Italy market needs a KLM type operator with very dense config's - bringing overall CASM down to a level where such operations can become profitable. With Alitalia reconfig on the 772 going 10 abreast in Y - this might make this an even more profitable operation for them.
That I think sums it up.
I see the West coast US being the domain of 10 across Y in the 777 or 9 across Y in the 787. It simply is not a premium market. For those who demand comfort, pay for J.
Everyone else can cheap out by buying a ticket to an East coast hub and continuing on from there...
Quoting OH-LGA (Reply 1): e) Insufficient business demand = limited high yield traffic
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21455 posts, RR: 24 Reply 7, posted (8 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1072 times:
Quoting flyyul (Reply 5): The Italy market needs a KLM type operator with very dense config's - bringing overall CASM down to a level where such operations can become profitable. With Alitalia reconfig on the 772 going 10 abreast in Y
You mention KLM. Their 772s are 9-abreast. Only their 77Ws are 10-abreast.
factsonly From Montserrat, joined Aug 2012, 299 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 824 times:
Interesting that you mentions the KLM B777's for the California-Italy market, as KLM does not operate the B777 to California. In summer 2012 KLM operates:
- B747-400 on AMS-SFO = daily KL605
- B747-400 on AMS-LAX = daily KL601
- MD11 on AMS-LAX = 3x/weekly KL603
What is perhaps more relevant to the discussion is that the SKYTEAM JV operates multiple daily California-Italy flights in Summer and Winter, through AMS, CDG & JFK & ATL:
- California-AMS-VCE on KLM with AZ codeshare
- California-AMS-LIN on KLM & AZ metal
- California-AMS-TRN on KLM & AZ metal
- California-AMS-BLQ on KLM with AZ codeshare
- California-AMS-FLR on KLM & AZ metal
- California-AMS-FCO on KLM & AZ metal
- California-AMS-NAP on KLM & HV metal with KL codeshare
- California-AMS-PSA om KLM & HV metal with KL codeshare
- California-CDG-VCE on AF with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-LIN on AF & AZ metal
- California-CDG-TRN on AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-GOA on AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-BLQ on AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-FLR on AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-FCO on AF & AZ metal
- California-CDG-NAP on AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-CDG-PSA om AF metal with AZ codeshare
- California-JFK-MXP on AZ/DL
- California-JFK-FCO on AZ/DL
- California-ATL-FCO on DL with AZ codeshare
flyyul From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4930 posts, RR: 53 Reply 9, posted (8 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 698 times:
The point is - KL is the type of operator with very dense configs. As a result they tend to perform in leisure heavy markets or in lower yield ULR markets (see how many AMS-South East Asia ops vs. LH/AF/BA etc).
I think AZ is seeing the light hence why they are going 10 abreast in Y on their 772s. KL will follow in short order on their own 772s
alitalia744 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 4656 posts, RR: 45 Reply 10, posted (8 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 674 times:
Quoting flyyul (Reply 9): The point is - KL is the type of operator with very dense configs. As a result they tend to perform in leisure heavy markets or in lower yield ULR markets (see how many AMS-South East Asia ops vs. LH/AF/BA etc).
I think AZ is seeing the light hence why they are going 10 abreast in Y on their 772s. KL will follow in short order on their own 772s
Despite going 10 abreast in Y on their 77E aircraft, the overall capacity of the plane is only +2 seats (from 291 to 293). The aircraft are now less J heavy, indeed (-12 seats) but also less Y- heavy (-10 seats). In turn they added 24 proper Premium Econ (Y+) seats.
The 10-abreast in turn seems to ensure a similar capacity despite the introduction of a 10-abreast Y cabin.
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