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How Does DL Make Money SEA-Asia, Close PDX-Asia  
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 392 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12482 times:

What makes the PacNW routes to Asia from SEA more profitable than when they were from PDX? I know SEA has more folks but AS still had a hub in PDX so the feed should be there... It would truly be nice if they would follow it up with a long-awaited return to TPE, NGO, SEL from PacNW? The aircraft is better I know 763 (Winglets)/A332 vs MD11. Is their international Asia product that much better, or is it just the fact that there are so many AS Mileage Plan member in the PacNW and they can get DL miles? I know this has been tossed around so much, but this seems like the perfect marriage. Not sure why AS is not absorbed into DL? AS caters to many ST members too. Maybe their costs are lower. I think this build-up leaves AA out in the cold with their hiney's exposed. AA had the first code-share and they NEVER did anything to make more money with AS and solidify it's PacNW standings the way DL has done.

22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12442 times:

I think you kinda answered your own question. I'm no expert but I think it's because:

1. larger, better city for Asia ops
2. AS feed
3. NW! Don't forget that DL is essentially NW in SEA, with some addition. Before, it was DL@PDX and NW@SEA. Now it's NW+@SEA

Plus, I think the SEA op makes more sense... PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK or something crazy, SEA is actually like a hub now (or at least more direct options)



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinedeltacto From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 449 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 12343 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK

DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12312 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
Don't forget that DL is essentially NW in SEA, with some addition.

DL has a lot of history in SEA thanks to NW. For many years starting in the 1940s NW's SEA-Asia service was the fastest and most direct service between the U.S. and Asia. NW's route was close to the great circle route. The route via HNL used by Pan Am and the few Asian carriers that operated transpacific services then (JAL and Philippine Airlines) was much longer.


User currently offlineRoseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9665 posts, RR: 52
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12293 times:

The SEA market has grown. It's a much bigger market than PDX. In the 90s yields were high enough with low fuel prices that think low O/D routes like PDX-Asia worked. Today with fuel prices higher, margins are thinner requiring better yield management.

In the last year yields have gone up and thinner routes are begging to work again.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
I know SEA has more folks but AS still had a hub in PDX so the feed should be there

Anything requiring feed is always lower yielding than O/D. Airlines chase nonstop O/D routes because there's less competition on a nonstop flight than there is if feed is required. In the 90s, you had NW via SEA/NRT, UA via SEA/NRT and DL via PDX.

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
Is their international Asia product that much better, or is it just the fact that there are so many AS Mileage Plan member in the PacNW and they can get DL miles? I know this has been tossed around so much, but this seems like the perfect marriage.

Codeshares are played up via marketing to have all alliance members being equal. That's marketing to bring people into the airlines.

In reality, flying people on your own metal is always more profitable. There's a reason why AS has started ATL, DFW, ORD, etc even though they are hubs of their code share partners.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12277 times:

Hence NW original name of Northwest Orient. But for a few years, NW had cut their Asia service from SEA to one flight a day to TYO (NRT). Now it seems this is the 2nd time DL/NW built up Asia from SEA in the last 20 years. I can remember NW had service to Hong Kong, China and Japan from SEA for or 5 cities. I think they also did SEA-OSA-CGK as a direct via OSA

User currently offlinerwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3106 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12218 times:

Lots of reasons, and you hit most of them:

- A332/B767 are smaller, thus fewer seats to fill (at higher yields)
- A332/B767 are cheaper to operate (2 engine vs. 3 engine) than the MD-11
- Much more feed; DL now draws from their own network (including legacy NW routes) and the AS codeshares
- SEA has many more Fortune-500 corporations than PDX, with Microsoft especially driving a lot of traffic
- The Seattle metro area is about 50% bigger than the Portland metro area
- SEA has grown quite a bit since the 1990s (although PDX has as well)
- DL itself has become a much larger player in the Asia market after acquiring NW

So, in summary, its a bigger city, there's much better feed, and it is operated with lower-cost equipment.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12218 times:

As far as I know, PDX-NRT is doing well and is safe. I know you are referring to the previous DL PDX-Asia flights, but the thread title is a bit misleading. DL still has PDX-Asia service.

User currently offlineHPRamper From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4073 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12203 times:

DL didn't just close the PDX hub due to lack of feed or less O&D than SEA. There were a myriad of reasons it ended up on the chopping block.

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12191 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 5):
Hence NW original name of Northwest Orient.

It wasn't their original name. NW had been in business for 20 years when they began using Northwest Orient as a marketing name after they started transpacific service in the late 1940s. It was never their legal name.


User currently offlineolddominion727 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 392 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 12149 times:

@Viscount... wow I never knew that. That's interesting. In this biz 22 years. never knew that. thanks

User currently offlineflyPBA From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11623 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
It wasn't their original name. NW had been in business for 20 years when they began using Northwest Orient as a marketing name after they started transpacific service in the late 1940s. It was never their legal name.

back in 1930 it was actually Northwest Airways, Inc.

changed to Northwest Airlines in 1934 or so ... didn't start using Northwest Orient until late 1946 ... until they went to Northwest in 1986

good place to look ... http://www.airtimes.com/cgat/usb/northwest/gal/nwgal30.htm

[Edited 2012-09-15 18:04:47]

User currently offlinegreggariouspdx From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 63 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11414 times:
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I flew PDX-BKK on a DL L-1011 that went via Tapei and Seoul Kimpo in the early days of the PDX Asian Hub. I remember the load being very light both ways and I received a Comp upgrade to F from J. The seats were great, despite the lack of lie-flat capability, and the service was flawless. I heard the L1011's were weight restricted across the Pacific before the MD-11 came along with greater range. The MD-11's were a maintenance nightmare .

User currently offlineCOSPN From Northern Mariana Islands, joined Oct 2001, 1623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11411 times:

3 reasons

Alaska feed
Alaska feed
Alaska feed


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3543 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 11177 times:

Quoting COSPN (Reply 13):
3 reasons

Alaska feed
Alaska feed
Alaska feed

exactly. DL can offer quite a nice one stop selection to feed the flights and no risk of flying its own domestic routes. PDX required a stop in SLC, ATL, or CVG at that time so it wasnt really the best settup and the MD11s were huge and thirsty. Delta tried feeding some flights to PDX but they really didnt want to be in the domestic market there

Its what delta is doing right now....the 767s are a nice size but i dont think they plan on going big.......


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3363 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3853 times:

Quoting olddominion727 (Thread starter):
AA had the first code-share and they NEVER did anything to make more money with AS and solidify it's PacNW standings the way DL has done.

AA has had little to do with the Northwest from the days they came to the area in the early 80's. They flew to EUG for less than a year, and other than the SEA-NRT flight that AA operated for some years, and the subsequent connections to MIA, JFK, ORD, DFW, there has been little action in SEA and even less at PDX with AA. SEA-BNA operated once.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
PDX was doing PDX-TPE-MNL-BKK or something crazy

See below, deltacto nailed it on the head exactly.

Quoting deltacto (Reply 2):
DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end

You have a very accurate memory, this is a perfect recounting of DL's PDX hub.

Quoting greggariouspdx (Reply 12):
I heard the L1011's were weight restricted across the Pacific before the MD-11 came along with greater range. The MD-11's were a maintenance nightmare

The L15 was flying for a much shorter time than the M11's at least, the view of 5 L-1011's then 5 M11's around the end of D still stick in my mind each time I taxi by on my way in or out of time.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 14):
exactly. DL can offer quite a nice one stop selection to feed the flights and no risk of flying its own domestic routes. PDX required a stop in SLC, ATL, or CVG at that time so it wasnt really the best settup and the MD11s were huge and thirsty. Delta tried feeding some flights to PDX but they really didnt want to be in the domestic market there

At the time DL had it's Asia hub at PDX there were domestic non-stop connections to SEA, BOI, SFO, LAX, LAS, SLC, DFW, ATL, JFK, BOS & CVG. Some of those domestic options were M11's, 767's, 757's mid-day on D concourse was always a busy time, I remember flying M11 to ATL in J, CVG in J, SLC in J to name a few.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineANA787 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 307 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3843 times:

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 15):
Quoting deltacto (Reply 2):
DL never served Manilla from PDX
Flights were:
PDX-NRT
PDX-NGO
PDX-SEL-TPE-BKK ... later they split this flight into two flights PDX-SEL and PDX-TPE-BKK
Later they discontinued TPE and BKK altogether

They flew PDX-FUK very briefly right before the end

You have a very accurate memory, this is a perfect recounting of DL's PDX hub.

There was also plans to start PDX-KIX...it was announced but never started unfortunately. PDX-PEK-PVG was also planned.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3363 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 3807 times:

Quoting ANA787 (Reply 16):
There was also plans to start PDX-KIX...it was announced but never started unfortunately. PDX-PEK-PVG was also planned

I was pretty good with our DL rep here in Portland, as I managed an office for Azumano travel, the owner of the largest agency in Portland Sho Dozono, was a big player in the movement that got DL to get their hub operating here. The Port of Portland had made fairly big concessions to DL to land the deal.

I did know that KIX was on their radar, and authorities to China were not so easy to come by at that time, despite DL wanting PVG or PEK authority, DL also felt that it was going to be out of reach for a while still, therefore efforts in developing the market were half assed in favor of more Japan cities.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3308 times:

Quoting flyPBA (Reply 11):
didn't start using Northwest Orient until late 1946 ... until they went to Northwest in 1986

It was actually Northwest Oriental on their first timetable (November 1946) using the new marketing name. That didn't last long as all subsequent timetables used Northwest Orient.



[Edited 2012-09-17 15:30:51]

User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3148 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3279 times:

I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

How is PDX-NRT doing these days anyway? AFAIK, both PDX-NRT and PDX-AMS are doing well enough for DL to be fairly safe.


User currently offlineRWA380 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3363 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

I absolutely remember this advertising, it was on the radio and TV here in Portland, in Aug 1979 we took NW Orient to Hawaii via SEA. DC-10-PDX-SEA-PDX (During the grounding of DC-10's, as NW's were PW engines), 747-SEA-HNL-SEA.



AA AC AQ AS BD BN CO CS DL EA EZ HA HP KL KN MP MW NK NW OO OZ PA PS QX RC RH RW SA TG TW UA US VS WA WC WN
User currently offlineVC10DC10 From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 1036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2727 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

Ah yes, the famous Northwest Orient gong... it was created by Minneapolis advertising agency Campbell Mithun (Northwest president Donald Nyrop wanted an agency in the Twin Cities, not New York) and was hugely successful. I believe the advertising concept won awards back in the day.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25626 posts, RR: 22
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting VC10DC10 (Reply 21):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 19):
I remember the radio advertizement in Seattle around 1970, when I was a young child. It used some kind of Asian sounding gong.

It went, "Northwest Orient....(loud gong!)....Airlines".

Ah yes, the famous Northwest Orient gong... it was created by Minneapolis advertising agency Campbell Mithun (Northwest president Donald Nyrop wanted an agency in the Twin Cities, not New York) and was hugely successful. I believe the advertising concept won awards back in the day.

A couple of NW ads featuring the "gong".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPuR92W-III
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuB5QIgOmxE


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