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Stick-On Shade To Cover 787 Dimmable Window  
User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 29455 times:

Recently, Reuters ran a piece about the B787 dimmable windows not getting dark enough and that ANA was seeking a solution. Now there is a report about the windows not blocking enough heat either, and a carrier is offering a stick-on covering as a "solution." Except from the report: "My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable. At one point I stuck the cardboard briefing card into the frame to help stay cool. When a flight attendant saw me do this, she came over and handed me a black, self-stick window blotter. Apparently I'm not the only one to find this bothersome." Here's the full article: http://www.flickr.com/photos/globetrodden/7990143297/ Has anyone seen these so-called blotters? What a pity this is needed on such a remarkable aircraft. How could Boeing not have known this would be a problem?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 29218 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
Except from the report: "My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable

Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.


User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 28739 times:

They do not, no . A regular windowshade holds the heat much better.

NS


User currently onlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28538 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.

Not really:

- a normal windowshade is able to block 100% light
- a normal windowshade can be opened and closed instantly
- a normal window and a windowshade with a white or bright colour on the outside will not get hot from the sunlight


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28477 times:

Quoting gigneil (Reply 2):
They do not, no . A regular windowshade holds the heat much better.

Well tell that to the windowshade on one of my last flights that got quite hot to the touch.


User currently offlinetdscanuck From Canada, joined Jan 2006, 12709 posts, RR: 80
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 28423 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 3):
- a normal window and a windowshade with a white or bright colour on the outside will not get hot from the sunlight

Yes, they will. You may have been lucky enough to have low sun angle or be on the shaded side of the fuselage, but regular sunshades in direct sunlight at altitude can easily get 20 degrees above cabin temperature.

Tom.


User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 28311 times:

I am the one who wrote the "report" that the thread-starter cites. (Actually it was just the caption to a photo I posted in my archives on Flickr.com)

I flew aboard a JAL 787 a few days ago, from Boston to Narita, and in my opinion the windows let in too much ambient light and, especially, too much heat. Here's what I wrote...

"...Instead of a traditional draw-down shade, the glass is tinted electronically, with a push-button. It never fully opaques, even at full dark, and the effect is a bit like being under water: you can make out certain details, but most of the color and sunlight are filtered away. The world is rendered in a leaden, green-grey tint similar to the way things look under a very bright full moon. It's a nice idea in that you always have a view. Unfortunately, in direct sun, much of the heat still leeches through. My window pane became blisteringly hot to the touch, and the radiant heat became uncomfortable. At one point I stuck the cardboard briefing card into the frame to help stay cool. When a flight attendant saw me do this, she came over and handed me a black, self-stick window blotter. Apparently I'm not the only one to find this bothersome. In addition, it takes several seconds for the tinting to take effect. When the plane banks and suddenly you've got the sun bearing down on you, it takes 15 or 20 seconds for the glass to go dark. Perhaps a simple shade would have been a better (and less expensive) option? ..."


Bear in mind that the left side of the plane, where I was seated, was in DIRECT line with the late afternoon sun. Under MOST flight conditions there won't be a problem.

PS

[Edited 2012-09-16 18:45:45]


Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27417 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 1):
Normal windows and windowshades do the same thing.... so.... yah.

If this were true they would not have pre made cut outs. I dont remember getting a pre made cut out on my last flight with a windowshade! Face it boeing made a mistake with this dimmable window no way around it. They Fu@%ed up once again on this aircraft

[Edited 2012-09-16 19:50:02]

User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3392 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 27252 times:

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
If this were true they would not have pre made cut outs.

The premade cutouts are for broken windows, and people who find the current max dark not dark enough. Note though that even the current roll down shades let some light through, and get very hot in prolonged direct sunlight. You know, the same issues reported here.

And no, a stick on label wouldn't fix the "heat" issue past a short time where it took the time to warm itself up.


User currently offlineslcdeltarumd11 From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3361 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 26512 times:

[quote=XT6Wagon,reply=8]The premade cutouts are for broken windows, and people who find the current max dark not dark enough. Note though that even the current roll down shades let some light through, and get very hot in prolonged direct sunlight. You know, the same issues reported here.

.... so.... yah.......I was talking about keeping the light out. similar to what you would get with a normal windowshade. Clearly the dimmable feature is not able to block it like a normal windowshade its a bad design

From a reuters article on the 787 windows not being acceptable to people "The Japanese airline is looking to install pull down blinds on 787s "
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...s-ana-boeing-idUSBRE85J08J20120620

There are articles and random peoples trip reports of people complaining about this design failure on daytime flights on the 787s. Personally i have not seen one in person but i think it looks like a design flaw if we are talking about this once again on here.

[Edited 2012-09-16 21:07:56]

User currently offlinegothamspotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 26102 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
Recently, Reuters ran a piece about the B787 dimmable windows not getting dark enough and that ANA was seeking a solution.

This was quite awhile ago, and ANA has since disputed its accuracy.

See: http://www.airlinereporter.com/2012/...787-dreamliner-windows-dim-enough/


User currently offlinespacecadet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 25500 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 10):
This was quite awhile ago, and ANA has since disputed its accuracy.

Which doesn't speak anything as to its actual truthfulness. Companies say whatever benefits them most at a given point in time.



I'm tired of being a wanna-be league bowler. I wanna be a league bowler!
User currently offlineduncan16 From United States of America, joined Apr 2012, 18 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 25058 times:

I agree, companies always say to the public what benefits them the most. I have not yet flown on the B787 so have no experience from which to either confirm or refute issues that might be related to the dimmable window shade. But I've a basic question: if the amount of heat or light or both coming into the cabin is NOT an issue, why would a stick-on window blotter be custom made, and why would airlines have them onboard to distribute?

User currently online9VSIO From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 709 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24976 times:
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Quoting duncan16 (Reply 12):
But I've a basic question: if the amount of heat or light or both coming into the cabin is NOT an issue, why would a stick-on window blotter be custom made, and why would airlines have them onboard to distribute?
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 8):
The premade cutouts are for broken windows,

QED  



Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...
User currently offlinegothamspotter From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 586 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 24498 times:

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 11):
Which doesn't speak anything as to its actual truthfulness. Companies say whatever benefits them most at a given point in time.

More than a dozen 787s have been delivered and tens of thousands of people have flown 787s, yet the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed. If there were any legitimate, widespread complaints, the media would have been all over it.


User currently offlineAirlineCritic From Finland, joined Mar 2009, 699 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 24131 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 14):
the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed

But it is not the only report, just look at what Aviateur wrote above.

This issue needs more testing. Wonder when I can get onboard to test  


User currently onlineUnflug From Germany, joined Jan 2012, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 23650 times:

Quoting tdscanuck (Reply 5):
Yes, they will. You may have been lucky enough to have low sun angle or be on the shaded side of the fuselage, but regular sunshades in direct sunlight at altitude can easily get 20 degrees above cabin temperature.

Maybe your 20 degrees are correct. That doesn't change the fact that under the same conditions a dark object will absorb significantly more heat and its temperature will rise even higher.


User currently offlineTC957 From UK - England, joined May 2012, 811 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 23239 times:

Quoting Unflug (Reply 16):

And we have RJ getting 787's with their dark colour scheme and high summer temperature operating enviornment, and of course QR & EY as well. I wonder if Airbus will install this window shading feature in their A350's ?
Must say, on the domestic ANA flight I had earlier this year, I had a window seat on the sun side of the 787 and don't recall getting fried.


User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2077 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 22835 times:

Quoting gothamspotter (Reply 14):
More than a dozen 787s have been delivered and tens of thousands of people have flown 787s, yet the only complaint we've heard about the shades came from a single report that was immediately disputed.

No, this is not the first time that there are complaints about the shades. We had a similar tread some month ago.



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 21065 times:

Quoting aviateur (Reply 6):
Perhaps a simple shade would have been a better (and less expensive) option? ..."

We can debate the heat issue, the time to darken, and how dark the window gets, but in 2012 the dimming window is very likely much less expensive to install, maintain, and even replace than a window shade! This is mostly beacause there has to be a window anyway, and adding some electronics to it is pretty simple, especially at the design stage. An entire IPhone5 screen is apparently less than $8 (and I KNOW that you can get an Iphone4 screen replaced for $100 including labour). As long as the new windows are reasonably reliable over time, then the weight, complexity, and service costs of fixing the classic pull down blinds means we'll see more of this sort of thing in the future. (On a 787 the weight alone must be a saving of >100kg including the supports for tracks, etc., and a lot less parts to install during manufacturing).

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 7):
I dont remember getting a pre made cut out on my last flight with a windowshade!

I do, the last time my window shade was broken.

I 'think' I prefer to have the window completely dark...but...even with a shade, there is always some ambient light in the cabin, and even more now than before with all the IFE, computers, and especially now the Ipads, Readers, Phones, and other tablets. There is probably a lot more light inside the cabin now than ever before. So really, do we need 100% blackout ont the window when there is much more light inside than the window will let through?

The heat thing is also a bit annoying, but measured accurately, is probably also not much diffferent, if at all. My window shade was pretty warm last week (east side, morning flight to BGI, A319). Still not as warm as the air once the doors opened on the ground.

Since I have all these 'perceptions' that conflict with my attempts at logically removing bias caused by previous experiences, I fully agree with...Mr Critic here  
Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 15):
This issue needs more testing. Wonder when I can get onboard to test

Speaking of the perceptions and experience based bias...we didn't need 100% blackout screens on DC-6's and Connies, we had proper curtains like civilised people (which is likely how the a.net threads would have read).

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Roland Bergmann-Spotterteam Graz



Once I experience the dimmable shades, I am going to wonder why the airliners I have ridden didn't have two sliding shades - one tinted, the other solid, all along? What else have we missed out on!?!


Anyway, with the significant potential for cost savings, etc., I am pretty sure we'll see similar windows on every new design - and it wouldn't surprise me to see them in NEO's and MAX's as well if they prove to be as low cost to manufacture and maintain as expected. As with everything else electronis, I imagine we will see a "Mark II" which darkens faster and more completely as well (Iphone is up to it's 6th version since 2007!).



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
User currently offlinericknroll From Afghanistan, joined Jan 2012, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 19523 times:

Dark colours absorb more energy than lighter colours, which tend to reflect sunlight. I think that would explain why the 787 windows would feel hotter.

User currently offlinedivemaster08 From Cayman Islands, joined Jul 2008, 332 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 18944 times:

Seems to be another company out there that makes this kind of product also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWUnmq9nFgk

This product looks very similar to the Boeing one (maybe the same company but they dont list the 787 as their product) and this looks to go fully black to blackout sun.

Says its on use on the A380 also! Which airline has them?



My dream, is to fly, over the rainbow, so high!
User currently offlineCZ346 From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 95 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 17605 times:

Pardon any nievety or pre-addressed inquiries, but wouldn't the shear size of the windows on the 787's play a roll into this as well? I mean - we are talking about a window thats 1.8 times the size of windows in the past; I would think that would play a bit of a roll into all of this as well... Not debating issues rising from the electronic window or anything but I would tend to believe that would cause some of the issue as well.

User currently offlineaviateur From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 1351 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16854 times:

Quoting duncan16 (Thread starter):
The heat thing is also a bit annoying, but measured accurately, is probably also not much diffferent, if at all.


I spend my life on planes. Granted my window was in direct line with the sun for a prolonged period, but I'm telling you the heat was very annoying. It was MUCH more noticeable than the radiant heat coming through a normal shade.


The other problem I had with the window was the TIME it takes to darken. The plane would bank, and suddenly I'd have the full sun beaming in on me. With a normal shade, I could have reached up and instantly addressed this, pulling it down all the way, half way, or however much I needed. With the electronic tinting, however, there's a long delay. You press the button and wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. In the meantime you need to use some other means of blocking the sun.


The "blotter" was given was a heavy black piece in the exact shape of the window. It had a soft, felt-like material on one side, and a glossy surface on the other, for adhering to the pane. It stuck nicely and did not fall or peel. Not sure if it's a JAL product, Boeing product or whatever.

I didn't ask for the blotter. A flight attendant came and handed it to me, after she noticed I was having trouble with the heat. I had taken a pair of safety cards from the seat pockets and wedged them into the frame, creating a makeshift shade.


PS

[Edited 2012-09-17 07:04:11]


Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author
User currently offlineBE77 From Canada, joined Nov 2007, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 16698 times:

Quoting CZ346 (Reply 22):
Pardon any nievety or pre-addressed inquiries, but wouldn't the shear size of the windows on the 787's play a roll into this as well?

Good point!
Certainly would increase the amount of radiation generated hear in. Shouldn't make it 'hotter' but certainly there is more heat to deal with. The dimmed screen should still 'stop' most of the heat from entering the cabin as light and heating up 'everything' in the cabin, but the heat actually absorbed in the window would be more because of the area.
The colour of the glass is not the only thing that matters (ie, while darker does absorb more light), but for glass there is the whole transmissivity thing to think about - ie - how much does the dimmed window reflect vs absorb. With a white shade, the light that goes through the window heats the window a bit, hits the shade (heating it a bit) then the light is re-emitted by the shade and goes back through the window and heating it a bit more before it leaves the plane again. If the new glass is just a bit more reflective, especially of the frequencies that carry most of the heat (such as infra-red, which is often a design goal with windows anyway), then perhaps there is less energy already to deal with.

Since light is just energy at frequencies we can see, it's odd to think about, but if we could see in radio frequencies then the entire airplane would be transparent!



Tower, Affirmitive, gear is down and welded
25 Post contains images airbazar : If that was true most homes would have them by now. I would venture a guess that they are not less expensive. Having said that, I have never flown on
26 sunilgupta : In my experience that statement is only partially true. It is true for shorthaul/domestic aircraft, but almost all longhaul aircraft window shades bl
27 babybus : I think the 787 will run into trouble in operation with Middle East carriers. They hate sunlight in the cabin especially in summer. It's normal to wal
28 SKAirbus : I think the dimmable window shades are a bit of a gimmick really. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
29 Post contains links rampart : Hughes Airwest installed some sort of external foil-reflective material on their windows, in part to reflect solar rays that would be pretty annoying
30 Post contains links CM : ANA's 787 fleet had carried more than 100,000 passengers as of January. I suspect by now the total 787 fleet is WAY past 1M passengers flow. http://w
31 Post contains images jsafford : I had my first 787 flight a couple weeks ago onboard a JAL 787 from Boston to Narita. I was a HUGE "Fan-boy" of the 787 ever since the beginning and w
32 707lvr : I told you guys these things would be a disaster, and they haven't even started breaking yet.
33 oldeuropean : It seems they are already broken:
34 sweair : If they work I can see the FAs love them, no more nagging about the shades or manually messing with them.
35 Stitch : So before anyone flew on a 787, the complaint was that they'd be 100% opaque. Now that people are flying on the 787, the complaint is they are not 100
36 MSR777 : I was quite looking forward to a future trip on a 787, now I'm not so sure. Seriously though, I guess that every new airliner has a few teething probl
37 Viscount724 : What are the dimensions of 787 windows? I didn't think they were much larger, if any, than MD-11 and DC-10 windows which are significantly larger (11
38 tdscanuck : That's good to hear...if you ask the 787 window guys how they picked the tint level, it was supposed to be equivalent to a full moon at night. The st
39 aviateur : No, the best feature was the size of the COCKPIT windows. I had a chance to jumpseat several times on DC-10s. The aft cockpit windscreen on that plan
40 N62NA : Wow, that picture makes it look like you're flying in the atmosphere of the planet Neptune or something!
41 CXB77L : I would disagree that it isn't to the advantage of the passenger, because these dimmable window shades allow a view of the outside world instead of h
42 Post contains images bikerthai : Seems to me that only a percentage of people complains about the windows. These are the small percentage who were lucky enough to get a window seat.
43 threepoint : I've also spent a fair amount of time in a DC-10 jumpseat during extended low-level firefighting ops. The visibility in a left-hand orbit at 1500' AG
44 tdscanuck : I can't even think of anything *without* a flight suit that's more fun than *that*. Tom.
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