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Lots Of AA Cancellations Today 9/17  
User currently offlineozark1 From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 715 posts, RR: 1
Posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34624 times:

Interesting to see that AA canceled (in my opinion) a much higher number of flights today than normal. The reasons for the cancellations would be one of two things when looked up in SABRE. 1) "Unable to crew" or 2) "Aircraft out of service". There seemed to be quite a few MD80 cancellations at DFW due to equipment. In a large number of markets out of DFW today there were cancellations. Curious as to the timing with the imposed pilot terms. (That and the mechanics just barely passing their contract).

298 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 29179 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34584 times:

As of 4pm Central they had 98 cancels - majority at DFW (31).

Go figure...

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineflyfree727 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 724 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34580 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
(That and the mechanics just barely passing their contract).

Not to mention 1,100 of them about to receive furlough notice.


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 367 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 34545 times:

The situation here at AA is going downhill fast. I am experiencing this first hand from the cockpit. I as said on a different thread, AA management, the UCC and APA better get together and fix this. The alternate is becoming more and more a possibility and it won't be pretty.

User currently offlineAv8tor From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 152 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34262 times:

Shouldn't have pissed off the pilots!!

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1629 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 34056 times:

Expect the same at Eagle once our TA inevitably passes. Not saying I condone it at all, but it is what it is.

User currently offlineCRFLY From Costa Rica, joined Jan 2004, 197 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 33912 times:

Wow! I just post this too... It is crazy the amount of flight delays and cancelations out of Miami, especially on the 757 fleet... Flights with up to 12 hour delays and then cancelations because of maintenance and crew delays... I am flying AA on Wednesday and I am worried about what will happen, as I have a tight meeting schedule at MIA... Let's hope for the best!

With Age comes Wisdom...
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23782 posts, RR: 60
Reply 7, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 33885 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 3):
The situation here at AA is going downhill fast. I am experiencing this first hand from the cockpit. I as said on a different thread, AA management, the UCC and APA better get together and fix this. The alternate is becoming more and more a possibility and it won't be pretty.

Fix what? Today's issues? Are you saying that this is an unofficial labor action?

User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1315 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 33882 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
As of 4pm Central they had 98 cancels - majority at DFW (31).

Not to be too picky, but majority would be 50%+1 (50 flights). The largest share (31) was at DFW.

I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8734 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 33881 times:

Quoting ozark1 (Thread starter):
Curious as to the timing with the imposed pilot terms.

Your curiosity is not without merit.

This Website Censors Me
User currently offlinejustplanenutz From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 772 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33781 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
As of 4pm Central they had 98 cancels - majority at DFW (31).

What is normal? Out of 3,400 daily flights, .003% cancelling doesn't seem outrageous.

User currently offlinephxa340 From United States of America, joined Mar 2012, 1042 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33762 times:

Quoting Av8tor (Reply 4):
Shouldn't have pissed off the pilots!!

Perfect, lets take it out on the passenger who has nothing to do with this mess .... If this spirals out of control they might be looking at having no job instead.

User currently offlinen757tw From United States of America, joined May 2000, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33703 times:

I agree, both my S80 flights this weekend were late for very questionable reasons. Taxi times @ DFW were extremely slow, I could jog faster to the active. I hope the APA doesn't plan to keep this up, its only going to hurt the passengers, and their future employment. If they don't watch what they are doing they might being using "CACTUS" callsign alot!

- AAdvantage Platinum Flyer

User currently offlinegigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 79
Reply 13, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33701 times:

IDK if its what you think... UA is cancelling a huge number of ORD flights because of weather and an inbound ground stop was in effect for a while.

It could simply be that planes aren't getting around the system right now.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23782 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33654 times:

Quoting justplanenutz (Reply 10):
What is normal? Out of 3,400 daily flights, .003% cancelling doesn't seem outrageous.

All at DFW does.

Quoting n757tw (Reply 12):
If they don't watch what they are doing they might being using "CACTUS" callsign alot!

I think that's what they want.

User currently offlinen757tw From United States of America, joined May 2000, 119 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33623 times:

DFW Weather Today:

KDFW 172253Z 04006KT 10SM FEW050 BKN060 27/16 A2981 RMK AO2 SLP085 T02670156

KDFW 172321Z 1800/1906 01006KT P6SM SCT050
FM181200 01016KT P6SM SCT040 BKN120
FM182200 03008KT P6SM SKC

My equipment LAS-DFW, routed DFW-MCO-DFW-LAS. The MCO-DFW portion was ontime, and then sat in DFW for an extra hour this afternoon. No equipment change.

My outbound on Friday DFW-LAS, made it all the way to 31L, spooled up... stopped... rolled off the active, and back to the gate. No deplanning only MX for 90 minutes. Then back to 31L.

I didn't connect the dots until today that the contracts might be in play here.

User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 3136 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33567 times:
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Quoting n757tw (Reply 15):
My outbound on Friday DFW-LAS, made it all the way to 31L, spooled up... stopped... rolled off the active, and back to the gate. No deplanning only MX for 90 minutes. Then back to 31L.

I didn't connect the dots until today that the contracts might be in play here.

Something tells me this didn't have anything to do with the contracts. Would they really go to the runway and turn around when they knew something was wrong? I'd be the first to point out something fishy with unions, but that doesn't seem like a disgruntled pilot to me.

All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 29179 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 33456 times:

And average day is under 20 cancels. Usually way under.

As of 6pm, AA is up to 106 cancels out of 1891 scheduled flights.

In comparison today as of the same time, UA has 9 cancels, WN 6, US 2, and DL 0.
Excellent day for all except AA.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 29179 posts, RR: 50
Reply 18, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33254 times:

AA says yes they are having operational problems - they blame it on....
“a number of factors, including higher than expected pilot retirements and sick levels as well as an increase in unscheduled out-of-service aircraft.”

AA also says it intends to reduce its schedule for the remainder of September and for all of October.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 23782 posts, RR: 60
Reply 19, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33243 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 17):

Fix what?


Yes, seriously. They are working to fix their bankruptcy. They are trying to fix their contract/labor issues. Obviously, the pilots are unhappy at their solutions.

What would be your suggestion?

My suggestion is that labor unions should not engage in illegal labor actions. The row is not with your passengers.

User currently offlinefxramper From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 7475 posts, RR: 78
Reply 20, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33246 times:
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Angry pilots calling in sick...

User currently onlineavi8 From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 928 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33139 times:
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My dad had his flight cancelled on Saturday out of MIA due to lack of crew. He flew to IAH for some personal reasons taking advantage of the re-booking process. He was then supposed o fly today IAH-DFW-GUA but his IAH-DFW leg was delayed, so they sent him to HOU. When he got to DFW, his flight to GUA was delayed for an hour. What is going on at AA?!

User currently offlineN62NA From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 5048 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 33088 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
AA also says it intends to reduce its schedule for the remainder of September and for all of October.

Great, so now I have to wonder if my upcoming flight on Sept 29th is going to be axed or not. Ugh.

User currently offlinecrAAzy From United States of America, joined Jan 2008, 817 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 32924 times:
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Ugghhh. I agree this is going to get uglier as the year goes on and there's not much the company can do right now except decrease it's schedules. If they were smart, they should start decreasing their holiday schedules too with these actions. Nothing going to bring down and airline faster than having you name plastered all over the news because families aren't making it to their holiday destinations.

Well, I guess we'll see how hellbent AA's pilots are on destroying the company and how AA management decides to deal with everything. Nobody want's to see this end badly for either group but I think if the pilots force AA's hand then it's not unreasonable for a US/AA merger to occur within BK and if that were to occur than I wouldn't be surprise to see DP and his gang use the 1113c to their full advantage.

Maybe I'm wrong (and I hope I am) but I don't think it's going to be in any AA employee group's interest to have a tie-up/merger/aquisition move forward during BK with their contracts voided.

It may be a little early, but does anyone know when the schedule changes are going to be loaded into the system?

[Edited 2012-09-17 18:28:58]

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 8384 posts, RR: 20
Reply 24, posted (3 years 8 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 33028 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 3):
The situation here at AA is going downhill fast. I am experiencing this first hand from the cockpit. I as said on a different thread, AA management, the UCC and APA better get together and fix this. The alternate is becoming more and more a possibility and it won't be pretty.

I just hope it doesn't cause anything drastic   

This is why the merger shouldn't happen. US doesn't have the capabilities of fixing this mess.

obligatory merger shot. filler filler

I hope it gets fixed as much as the next guy but in all seriousness it's nuts.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 1):
As of 4pm Central they had 98 cancels - majority at DFW (31).

Good news for PHX should a merger occur    filler

Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
25 TWA1985 : This weekend my return flight from DEN to ORD was canceled on Sunday evening. I got the notification 9 hours before the flight and they re-booked me o
26 flymia : If this really is intentional actions by the unions shame on them. Figure out , complain, negotiate but no need to hurt the airline and most important
27 LAXintl : I suspect if the trims are made this week and can go out with the Thursday load, they will be updated in GDS this Saturday night. If not, a week after
28 qqflyboy : American has already used the 1113 process to their advantage, with court approval last week to void the pilot contract. There isn't anything more DP
29 DeltaMD90 : Geez, I sure hope no AA pilots are unprofessional enough to engage in this behavior (legal action or not....) Maybe AA will make it out just fine, may
30 traindoc : Sad, Sad, Sad! No one will win except the competition, Wall Street and the lawyers. I have a daughter who used to fly for AA, and I have no interest i
31 bhmdiversion : Is there something wrong with this weather, or were you just making the notion that the WX was good and shouldnt have had all these issues..??
32 XFSUgimpLB41X : People don't realize how many favors pilots do for the company (waiting to write things up until at a mx station, coming in on a day off, overlooking
33 DeltaMD90 : Again, that will: 1: waste AA's money and 2: reinforce the excruciatingly obvious fact that "the pilots are mad." I'm not an AA pilot, so it's easier
34 XFSUgimpLB41X : Going down to where? A merger with USair? They obviously would prefer that and have zero love for a company that has repeatedly screwed them.
35 flyfree727 : This is a short term problem. AA/APA must return to section 6 and negotiate a contract. If either side chooses not too, the 5 bil will eventually run
36 brilondon : Full power?? How do you know this? Those planes are loud at takeoff whether it is full power or not. They were using takeoff power not full power.
37 jfklganyc : The whole situation is disgraceful. "Actually, MORE than 1/2 the cancellations today were mechanical. 61 were maintenance, 47 were crew related." By w
38 HPRamper : You do know that much of that is due to the flight crews pencil-whipping overblown maintenance issues, right? A lot of mx groundings are due to crew
39 American 767 : I flew recently on an MD-80 from DFW to EWR, I left an hour late because MX crew had to bring in a part from the hangar. I arrived in EWR one hour beh
40 DeltaMD90 : I misread your post (my apologies) but my stance against this pilot action remains the same... it is damaging to the company and "going down" could v
41 RyDawg82 : Today N329AA flew AAL9245 (LAX-DFW) at the same flight times as AAL2422 would have flown. AAL2422 would have been a B763 but XCLD. Ship 329 then flew
42 flymia : If the pilots actions are what we say they are then tactics and behavior like this will leave no jobs and no airline. Ok, so if they want to be able
43 ckfred : . How soon will the schedule changes be loaded into the computer system? I already had to deal with AA dropping its 12:40 departure out of BOS for ORD
44 crAAzy : As stated above, most of us realize that some MX issues need to be addressed immediately while other can be defered. It's not secret that these legal
45 747fan : Its been quite bad at my station for the last week or so. Every day for roughly the past week at least one of our MD-80's (out of 3 daily) from DFW ha
46 XFSUgimpLB41X : Mgmt could realize that its employees are humans instead of numbers... that would make a major change.
47 scbriml : You may need to buy a new calculator. 98 flights cancelled out of 3,400 is very nearly 3%.
48 justplanenutz : Ugh--math. Unfortunately, no calculator to blame on this one.
49 par13del : Ok, so to go off on a tangent, where are the consumers, airports and politicians who allowed themselves to be held hostage to the great fiasco? Who is
50 rbgso : Could you expand on these "horrid" working conditions, with specific examples?
51 N62NA : I'm curious about that too. The airlines themselves decided this, as we are now in "deregulation" (since the late 1970s). To do what you propose woul
52 DashTrash : Bullshit. I was in the game for several years. We can't just invent MX issues. If something breaks it needs to be written up. If it can be MEL'd, it
53 Post contains images imiakhtar : Arise ye workers from yer slumber
54 Av8tor : Nothing illegal going on at all. If a If it's broke, it's broke. Are you saying they are making stuff up? I don't think so. Maybe they're just not ove
55 norcal : Exactly, this is how it's supposed to be done according to FARs and company manuals. There are times when crews "discover" mx items when they get bac
56 DLD9S : I would like to agree with you, but tell that to the ORD-bound plane load of people I sat with on a Super 80 that took a mechanical delay at DFW beca
57 caliboy78 : I work behind the scenes at AA and I hear first hand all the calls made by the pilots to let the mechanics know they have write ups. However I must ad
58 aluminumtubing : You need to step into our shoes before you make any CHILDish accusations. As a AA captain, I AM NOT writing any Micky Mouse write-ups. The FAA is all
59 Acey559 : Exactly. I'm not a captain, but the company and the FAA doesn't seem to make that distinction as much any more, if you're part of the flight crew you
60 DashTrash : What caused the coffee maker to crap out? Bad element? Bad wiring? We had an aircraft that had a hot pot stop working a few years ago. Kept popping t
61 LAXintl : As of 11am Central - 42 cancels today.
62 ROSWELL41 : Bankrupt carriers do get increased scrutiny from the FAA. The pilots need to be extra vigilant.
63 par13del : Unless the airport is owned by the airline I would have to disagree, you really believe that AA became the dominant player at DFW and MIA simply by t
64 DLD9S : Well, the coffee maker never was fixed... we ended up flying to ORD without it. Even if that was the case, why not tell the plane "we are having a br
65 Post contains images N62NA : As is your privilege to do so.
66 Post contains images norcal : Yes because passengers love to hear that there is a possibility of them catching on fire while hurtling through the air at 500 mph at 35,000' "Ladies
67 HPRamper : I didn't say they were "making stuff up." Below are the kinds of things I'm referring to. MEL can be a wonderful thing - I never said non-deferrable
68 aluminumtubing : Its the majority. First of all, trivial items can be placarded by the flight crew without a maintenance sign off, even at major maintenance bases. Se
69 N62NA : Today AA cancelled flight 932 (a 752) which operates MIA-EWR and turns around as AA 1999. With only 2 flights into EWR, that's probably a major headac
70 davs5032 : If we're going to make one-sided arguments, I'll add another: Some pilots could realize that their passengers are humans instead of hostages with whi
71 aluminumtubing : Accusations without the facts! I personally know of no pilots intentionally doing ANYTHING illegal. I am flying day in and day out. I am speaking wit
72 XFSUgimpLB41X : So they should just roll over and accept whatever mgmt imposes because of the pax? Flt ops stated they are 400 pilots short but are refusing to recal
73 aluminumtubing : Apparently. Accurate statements.
74 LAXintl : Broken plane 5DL (N693AA) was OTS
75 Post contains links STT757 : We are also getting 60mph winds and tornado warnings here in Tri-State area. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/weather/[Edited 2012-09-18 14:11:27][Edited 20
76 Revelation : The pilots have voted to reject AA's offers and have voted to authorize a strike if/when they are allowed to strike legally. I think it's safe to pre
77 aluminumtubing : Some MEL's can be placarded inoperative by the flight crew and we have procedures for that. Many other items, while they can be placarded, must be pl
78 qualitydr : Sorry; 100 out of 3400 is about 3%, which does seem high. 0.003% is 98 canceled out of 3,267,000 flights; isn't that nearly 3 years of AA schedule?
79 Post contains images N62NA : Oh, so just another typical AA 757 flight. Kidding... but why they couldn't put SOMETHING else in its place is a bit off-putting. It's not like the p
80 Post contains links LAXintl : AA mainline only runs about 1,800 flights per day. Get 50+ cancellations, along with mere 60% on-time performance and you get a big mess. Here is a ne
81 aaexecplat : I was on 1874 today and was rebooked onto the 11:40am DFW-EWR flight. To be extra safe, I asked to be endorsed over to a UA flight that left a hour ea
82 aluminumtubing : AA is now claiming pilots are calling in sick and that that is the cause of many delays. Every pilot I know, due to all the scrutiny, is not calling i
83 aluminumtubing : aaexecplat I am truly sorry that the AA experience is deteriorating and that you are being affected. All airlines as you know, go through bad periods
84 crAAzy : Are they refusing out of spite or might it be a combination of different factors? Limited training facilities/limited training personnel with recent
85 JAAlbert : It is reassuring knowing we have dedicated pilots such as yourself in the cockpit. So what we have right now is an unusual number of delays and cance
86 Post contains images N62NA : I'll take that response as a response to me also. I'm very worried about my upcoming AA flight MIA-LAX later this month being one of those that will
87 DocLightning : Then why a bunch of cancellations out of the norm in the last 48 hours right after the pilot contract was voided?
88 aaexecplat : aluminumtubing. Thanks for wishing me well. I fly with AA two days a week for work plus a variety of leisure. Given that I have been doing this for 1
89 ckfred : I would wager that it's a little bit of everything. You may have some pilots you are strictly going by the book. You may have some mechanics who are a
90 aluminumtubing : There have been a few specific incidents regarding our crew members and the FAA and maintenance issues. I won't go into that here on this site for ob
91 Revelation : Thanks for posting that interesting article. One quote I'll highlight: Seems to me that both sides are ready to play out their hands to the last card
92 par13del : With no facts I would say it is because of the AA, FAA and government work rules. Work to rule is called a union action but at any airline today and
93 fco110 : I received a notice they are reducing Sept and Oct schedules by 1-2% to respond to the increased inspections being requested as well as increased sick
94 ORDBOSEWR : It would be illegal for AA to do any job action and very bad. Go look at UA. Prior to the merger with CO the UA pilots did exactly this when the annou
95 JAAlbert : I am not drawing or buying into conspiracy theories. Rather, I am saying that - while there are a lot of conspiracy theorists discussing this topic -
96 Revelation : The reality is that moving to other airlines just isn't an option. Seniority is everything in the business, and no one would volunteer to start all o
97 flyfree727 : And on my flights today you will continue to receive the same level of service that I provided prior to BK. AA employees, no doubt, are pissed. Yet I
98 DeltaMD90 : That's something to be amazed about?
99 flyfree727 : It is. AA ORD
100 747fan : Interesting. This certainly explains a lot. I've been digging through Sabre investigating what these delays have been coded to and the large majority
101 crAAzy : Glad you posted this for some facts as I think many people are getting confused with the pilot action here. It doesn't appear that they are calilng i
102 AAAL : I flew out of DFW yesterday and was strolling down terminal C. As I was walking down, I noticed every flight was delayed about two hours. I have never
103 Mir : It really is ridiculous, and it's a failure of the airlines to write manuals that say what they mean, and a failure of the FAA to regulate properly.
104 norcal : Exactly, most airline manuals are written ambiguously to allow the company an out in the event of legal action. In one section it will say something
105 AAexecplat : Agreed 100%. Any employee manual and training should be 100% unambiguous. You deserve nothing less. That said, let's remember one thing...namely that
106 DTWPurserBoy : No one wins in these situations. The employees are irreparably harmed, passenger service plummets because of unhappy front line employees and the airl
107 N62NA : It's not just AA or the airline industry. Since the consolidation of the radio industry into just a few mega-owners, thousands of people have gotten
108 PHX787 : It's nothing that people can control sometimes either. People are going to get laid off if a business is heading south and there's nothing management
109 par13del : References are one, if the new company requires and verifies, some HR people do have an informal network, may or may not be legal. So when a work to
110 Revelation : References are provided by the candidate, who is not likely to provide a bad reference! Nor should it. Such a network could easily pick up bogus goss
111 gigneil : Its very interesting in the US, and does vary from state to state - but most employers have a strict policy of only providing, officially, your incom
112 DeltaMD90 : Any update on today? It's sad to see how far AA has fallen, let's just hope they bottom out soon (and recover)
113 PRAirbus : The APA Pilots union is risking a court injunction or a fine if a work slowdown is proven...they're shooting themselves in the foot! Did they forget a
114 Revelation : According to the postings above, they're risking putting themselves all out of jobs, so what's a mere fine compared to that? I suspect they did not f
115 Post contains links windy95 : The Business travel editor from the WSJ had put out a warning to flyers to cancel their trips with AA because it is only going to get worse. Book Awa
116 MaverickM11 : This is the APA we're talking about, it's what they do. I'm surprised they have any feet left to shoot. The USAPA didn't leave any "proof" either, bu
117 NWADTWE16 : What should be of interest is that the cancellations are occurring 4-5 days out from the actual operating date of the flights. According to AA Sales i
118 Mir : Let's say it's three people out of all the pilots at AA - an incredibly small percentage. But if you're one of those three, you'll likely be finding
119 flyfree727 : Absolutely! We've even seen a major increase in FAA inspectors on board for cabin/ FA inspections. Ask a FA what the FAA fine is if a STAPLE is found
120 AAexecplat : Are you serious? That is absurd!
121 norcal : I've got another one for you. I saw this back on Airline Pilot Central last year in a thread where Eagle pilots were warning each other about a recen
122 STT757 : The FAA has nothing to do with AA's current turmoil, anecdotal examples of increased FAA scrutiny, while worthy of discussion, are just background noi
123 DashTrash : Telltale sign of a short staffed airline. It's more restrictive than that. You can operate the aircraft outside of the contiguous 48 states. Many dom
124 par13del : Well, if pilots following FAA rules and regulations are leading to a slowdown in AA operations I would say it does have something to do with it. Insp
125 STT757 : Are they on the taxiway with a radar gun? Experience with Unions, and passive resistance by "going by the book". I'll use the example that Pilots are
126 par13del : I think everyone agrees with your description of what is taking place, the big question is now what? So far in multiple threads we see pressure being
127 Mir : Welcome to the world of the overbearing FAA inspector. Their numbers are few, but they can really ruin your day. So it's advisable to act as if every
128 Revelation : But you are presuming they are doing so due to labor actions, when there is now evidence that there is additional oversight. Does police management r
129 93Sierra : AA pilots have had the short end of the stick this past decade, with lower than average pay scales and a slow fleet modernization. Slow taxi times and
130 N62NA : Is AA 277 MIA-LAX today a victim of the slowdown? It was supposed to depart at 10:45am and now shows "Delayed - Estimated Departure Time: 3:30pm" Prob
131 Post contains links LAXintl : AA277 - Broken plane. Waiting for replacement equipment. APA out with a press release: Allied Pilots Association: Decline in American Airlines’ Oper
132 STT757 : No they get cameras on the dash. What evidence? Is there something that can be pointed to other than anecdotal examples.
133 Post contains links LAXintl : FAA as policy increases oversight of carriers in when in financial distress, labor disputes or during major operational changes (eg merger). These per
134 par13del : Thanks for the link. The other side of this is the changes that were made to the Chpt.11 process, what UA, DL and NW accomplished in their filing can
135 N62NA : I see it FINALLY left at 4pm - 5 hours and 15 minutes late. In the case of AA 277, this is a 772 so not at all part of the "old fleet" so once again
136 LAXintl : As of 3pm central - 77 cancels today at mainline. AA has reduced spare part inventory and has shown the door to some 1,700 mechanics. End result is no
137 N62NA : Yep, understood. Just wondering if this is due to a "coffee maker malfunction."
138 tommy767 : I'm late to the party -- just got out of the hospital after 6 days of treatment. Wow....This situation is making UA look good.
139 aluminumtubing : Remember Air Canada and Swissair...... Electrically powered convenience items..... Lav and entertainment system.
140 Post contains images N62NA : Yes.
141 Post contains links DocLightning : http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2012...d-has-made-airline-too-unreliable/ WSJ says it is a pilot action. Not sick-out, but being extra-picky about rej
142 futureualpilot : I came across this, and was told it was written by a 737 FO at AA. I know this will probably encourage the a.net crowd to further crap on pilots but m
143 Post contains images lightsaber : That needs repeating. Passengers need to be on time. I often take an early morning AA flight instead of the night prior to spend more time with my ki
144 Mir : Then they can get them. I'm sure Embraer would love to sell AA some E195s. Or they can call up Bombardier and order the C Series. The aircraft are ou
145 jfklganyc : "I applaud the passenger for speaking out. I hope the pilot realizes many of those people will not be flying AA if they can avoid it for the next six
146 Post contains images phxa340 : Very well said , any I think that sometimes certain industries lose site of this. I know 3 Fortune 500 companies that have put up alerts to avoid tra
147 B727FA : While I am quite sympathetic/empathetic for the employees and the story posted here by the FO is a good read and in many ways, spot on, I find it inte
148 DashTrash : I've had passengers get in my face maybe three times. One resulted in an intoxicated passenger being denied boarding, the other two calmed down and b
149 N62NA : Huh? You STILL rely on flying out in the morning to get to a meeting that same day?! I gave up on that long ago and whenever I have a meeting in NYC,
150 DocLightning : At some point, I need to start scratching my chin and asking why all these issues popped up very suddenly after the Court voided the APA contract. He
151 ckfred : First of all, you couldn't pay me to fly that miserable excuse of an airline. I flew UA in 1996 and had such a miserable experience that not only won
152 Post contains images lightsaber : I'm not surprised. Once it hits the WSJ, the impact spreads. If AA isn't good enough for time critical travel, book away. I did so dozens of times in
153 Post contains images N62NA : I see your example is DFW-LAX. Mine is MIA-NYC. I should have been a bit clearer in my earlier post and my difficulties flying into NYC have been a c
154 Post contains images lightsaber : Exactly. AA was a well run machine before. That makes a difference. Aerospace is moving from California to Texas... I would not take the risk to NYC
155 Mir : Without their bags? The plane isn't going anywhere if they don't have their stuff with them. -Mir
156 kgaiflyer : Waited at BWI until nearly 3am today for AA1642 to arrive from DFW. I'm told it was held at the gate -- waiting for late connecting flights from the w
157 Post contains links lightsaber : The union must step up their PR. They are losing customer support in this slowdown: http://www.foxnews.com/travel/2012/0...ot-want-to-fly-american-rig
158 XFSUgimpLB41X : If anything, that writeup by the FO showed how cumbersome their operation is. AA has the most cumbersome overall operation of any US carrier- from mx
159 DocLightning : Be that as it may, why did it suddenly get more cumbersome right after the APA contract was voided? The pilots claim that they aren't doing anything.
160 HPRamper : I think the mounting crew shortages along with more stringent - or anal - FAA oversight exacerbate the situation. Cumbersome operations can often be
161 DocLightning : Again, what changed on 9/17 that wasn't the case on 9/16?
162 Post contains images lightsaber : I think we can agree on that. B6 used a case study comparing time after the last flight and when the pilot was done with the paperwork to justify goi
163 HPRamper : I haven't seen any solid numbers on the stats prior to 9/17. It would be interesting to see a good two weeks' worth of delay/cancellation numbers in
164 XFSUgimpLB41X : It didn't change overnight. The operation has had high cancellations since August and has been a mess for years. Pilots out sick is down from summer.
165 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : I could have been clearer on my statement What I meant was that the things we have to look at and check will not go down. The paperwork things we bas
166 mcg : The "I don't give a f**k" attitude displayed in the FO write-up above is pathetic. Is AA management perfect?, probably not; but if the pilots think th
167 HPRamper : Is the FO supposed to start jumping up and down getting hotheaded over situations he/she has no control over? The flight crews in the anecdote sounde
168 futureualpilot : ""The "I don't give a f**k" attitude displayed in the FO write-up above is pathetic. Is AA management perfect?, probably not; but if the pilots think
169 XFSUgimpLB41X : Curious- what do you think he could have done to resolve any of the situations that he encountered that day?
170 fxramper : An angry pilot can refuse to fly a plane with an inop reading light. It's happened before and it's happening right now.
171 ckfred : Before the bankruptcy filing, this was one of the issues being negotiated. A friend of mine is a 737 Captain. Pilot pay is based on aircraft weight.
172 Revelation : The pilots have decided that it's gotten to the point where their terms and conditions come first, even if that means customers get mad and go to the
173 XFSUgimpLB41X : Southwest pilots are paid so much more than AA pilots, it's almost hard to grasp. Southwest captains easily clear 300,000 a year (due to their work r
174 par13del : The unions cannot do PR on an action which they are not allowed to do, the only thing that the union can do is to claim that it is all management's f
175 mcg : $180k?, man that's pretty tough! Sorry, I just have a hard time feeling really sorry for the poor 737 driver who can only clear $180K. For the record
176 XFSUgimpLB41X : I love the comment on the 180k, and then you say you appreciate the skill and airmanship. If you appreciate it, pay up. That's how professionals work
177 Post contains images lightsaber : Interesting. Empty or MTOW? A fair scheme. I believe that is marxist 'value of labor' economics at play. Although Marx preferred passengers (he has a
178 aluminumtubing : My comment is completely separate from anything related to AA, but is a generalized response. Not a smart move. Anytime a passenger is polite and ask
179 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : Pilots aren't getting laid off in this mess because AA is running the operation already with admittedly fewer pilots than is operationally viable. (a
180 Post contains images lightsaber : That is your right and I would support that too. I would be ok if this passenger had been escorted off. That doesn't change that what he said needed
181 Post contains images par13del : Good points but in today's workplace we are talking about high priced employees, if they were to start putting stuff like that out in the media AA ma
182 XFSUgimpLB41X : They put out some stuff yesterday, but the press likes to focus on how evil unions are. Very easy scapegoat instead of getting to the root of the iss
183 DocLightning : It has happened. But they were smart about it. I believe it was South Carolina (but don't hold me to that) back in the 1990's, surgeons' malpractice
184 lightsaber : It can be done. I don't believe in defeatist mentalities. It is why I have a good reputation of 'fixing the unsolvable.' They could have had much bet
185 Post contains images OB1504 : The passenger took his anger out on an AA employee who is just as much a victim of the disaster at AA as he was. The passenger is an idiot. It's not
186 Mir : Especially if it involved putting my license on the line in order to help keep things moving by letting slide things that I'm really not supposed to.
187 Post contains links commavia : Here are some "solid numbers." AA's operation may not have been running flawlessly pre-1113 abrogation, but the numbers above, which don't even includ
188 ckfred : As I said, I was discussing this probably 9 months if not more before the bankruptcy, and before Delta had the horde of 76-seat aircraft ordered. But
189 XFSUgimpLB41X : PA abuse would give the company an excuse to punish the pilots as that is a violation of their FOM. No bueno and not legal. The fact is that the only
190 Post contains images XFSUgimpLB41X : As far as the way the AA operation has dramatically run worse- it should be no surprise that employees getting raped aren't particularly motivated to
191 commavia : No, it shouldn't be surprising. A lot of people are suffering a lot of economic hardship and dislocation as a result of AMR's bankruptcy. No question
192 Mir : I dont' think you could get the FAs and mechanics to agree to a dropped pay rate just because they're flying on smaller aircraft, though (or fixing t
193 DocLightning : It's called a legal appeal. That's the legal group action. Heck, informational picketing. But not taking it out on the passengers.
194 strfyr51 : Welcome to the Disgruntled Pilots Club Guys!! You abrogated the Pilots contract and thought they were JUST going to fly merrily along?? You'll Soon se
195 strfyr51 : Whether it is or it Ain't How would YOU Prove it ?? If they don't get silly and Blatant? You'll never be able to know or PROVE it one way or the othe
196 XFSUgimpLB41X : Oh no! A legal appeal! I'm sure the management people cringe at the thought of a legal appeal. That would certainly make the news and cause national
197 MaverickM11 : The APA is as dumb and self destructive as it is vocal, which is unfortunate since I'm sure the overwhelming majority of AA pilots are level headed,
198 DocLightning : You don't want this kind of national attention. This sort of unprofessional tantrum just cheeses off the public. It screws your co-workers. It screws
199 Post contains links and images MaverickM11 : They just pretty much blamed lightning strikes on management so good luck with that. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/allied...ation-pilots-cannot-23160
200 ckfred : Here's an idea. The pilots should take the T/A which gives them 13.5% of the new AMR stock. The F/As get 3%. The TWU gets an ownership interest. That
201 ckfred : How much trouble is AA having with reaccomodating passengers on cancelled flights? My family is scheduled on 10/14 to fly 1689, departing BOS at 10:15
202 XFSUgimpLB41X : Contracts taken before bankruptcy entrance have been proven by the other bankruptcies to not be counted as "cuts" for the judge during bk. In an age
203 ckfred : Merging with US is the most idiotic idea around. Bob Crandall was a great CEO of AMR, but the management culture he created does not turn out great c
204 XT6Wagon : Yup, AA's issue is that they had way too many people doing way too little. Of course we heard lots of complaints here about AA pilots not getting eno
205 XFSUgimpLB41X : WN pilots get paid bank for any extra hours flown... on the magnitude to where they make up to twice what a normal AA pilot would make. AA pilots alr
206 XFSUgimpLB41X : Agreed on US/AA being a train wreck, but misery loves company. And, hey... it'll finally get rid of USAPA whose leadership are the true special child
207 commavia : There is a difference between "stupid" and "self destructive." The pilots destroying the company's already-fragile finances in an attempt to force AM
208 Post contains images aluminumtubing : HUH? Over 2000 pilots have been laid off. Is the APA perfect? HELL no, but come on. We have been picking up our flying hours to the max of 83 hours,
209 Revelation : They're just responding to the changing landscape of union-management relationships. Big business has pushed through laws that pretty much make it im
210 N62NA : Update on AA 277: So, in addition to the massive 5 hour delay of just 2 days ago, today AA 277 has been cancelled. Not at all comforting since I'm bo
211 aluminumtubing : It's coded as a mechanical. I wouldn't call it a job action, because airplanes are only removed from service for important items. So, if it was remove
212 MaverickM11 : I can't imagine anyone at AMR was planning on any goodwill from labor; they may have planned on labor not making things worse As commavia mentioned,
213 N62NA : Thanks for the info. How about AA 299, same route MIA-LAX today (their other 772 on this route). That one left 2 hours late this morning. I can't ima
214 aluminumtubing : Not quite. If Parker were to take over, I am absolutely positive that things would not be perfect. However, the thought is that he, at least, wants t
215 Revelation : I think it shows how dissatisfied the AA pilots are with AMR management - they're willing to go with US. It also seems certain factions of the credit
216 tonytifao : My last 6 flights since 9/17 have been delayed: Here are the most interesting: Captain seat not working - 4 hrs Coffee pot broken - 3 hrs Cockpit door
217 aluminumtubing : Best I can tell is that the inbound aircraft left South America a few minutes late, but arrived over an hour late. The delay message says something a
218 primetimeDC9 : American and its pilots union worked hard to negotiate a contract that the company signed. The bankruptcy court allowed American management to go arou
219 MaverickM11 : I completely agree that Parker's management team has more talent in their fingers than AMRs team combined, but to think a Parker led US would somehow
220 aluminumtubing : Crap shoot....No. Calculated risk....Yes.
221 Post contains images N62NA : Yeah, we did have some heavy rains go through earlier this morning, so that makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to answer all these questio
222 Post contains images aluminumtubing : Anytime. Pilots really aren't all that bad or useless after all!
223 DashTrash : That's what I thought when I got hired at Netjets. Now I'm coming on the 3rd anniversary of my furlough date with no end in sight.
224 MaverickM11 : APA is incapable of calculating anything, and certainly not without an irrational blind rage that is sure to have unforeseen consequences for their m
225 tonytifao : Also yesterday, on DFW-MCO flight, we performed two touch-and-go before coming to land the third time. What I thought was bizarre was that there were
226 aluminumtubing : Absolute unfettered ignorance on your part. You have NO CLUE. Come walk a mile in our shoes and just maybe you might have some credibility. Having se
227 gegarrenton : I have many friends and associates who are commercial captains, and I agree. Even just looking at the raw numbers, it's obvious the vast majority of
228 aluminumtubing : I appreciate your comments. However, the counter argument could be they are doing their jobs perfectly. I have made some write ups this week and took
229 DocLightning : I keep on hearing: "There's no job action." "Pilots aren't doing anything wrong." "This is all poor planning." It's obvious to the public that there i
230 aluminumtubing : Earth to...... Can't admit to something that isn't happening. If flying by the book is a job action, I need to retire. It is the way I have always be
231 gegarrenton : It could be the counter argument, but it's not. I'm sure that you're write ups are totally valid, and have no illusions that every time a plane is de
232 aluminumtubing : I agree. To clarify, I don't believe industry standard means so much pay you bankrupt the airline long term. This industry has most definitely change
233 ckfred : This is very reasonable. And frankly, the fact that the tentative agreement was for 6 years is too long. My father worked in labor relations for a Fo
234 gegarrenton : Absolutely, I agree. This is sort of related, but I honestly think that if pilots, and all other workgroups for that matter, would be best served to
235 aluminumtubing : The UCC is holding a lot of the cards, no doubt. Their labor sub-committed asked us to meed with them last week. They don't hold all the cards. Witho
236 MaverickM11 : I can empathize with the majority of AA employees; this is not an easy period for them by any means. I also can empathize with the vast majority of I
237 N62NA : I just booked fully refundable tickets on DL in case my AA flight next Saturday is cancelled again (as it was this morning). And judging by the DL web
238 flyhossd : First, good luck to you, "AluminumTubing." There clearly is a demand for experienced pilots, but that demand (so far) is primarily outside the border
239 LAXintl : Aircraft 7AE was declared out of service following arrival from EZE. Sounds more like a maintenance resource issue than crew issue since aircraft was
240 Revelation : I guess this puts you on the record disagreeing with: whereas from what I've been able to gather not being an insider shows it's been AA who's had th
241 Post contains images aluminumtubing : Thank you. If this tanks, I will more than likely just retire. I would have a tough time working overseas as I have a tough enough time with English.
242 aluminumtubing : They have. Apparently, 31 pilots are doing final interviews in China for one outfit alone. AA will soon realize that you get what you pay for. There
243 aluminumtubing : You sir, have broken the code!
244 aluminumtubing : Well, the Ayatollahs on the APA board I am sure, appreciate your comparison. I guess, sadly, that there is more irony here than some might think. If
245 OB1504 : I don't know if it was in this thread or one of the others regarding AA's labor woes, but a broken coffee pot can be a more serious problem than it a
246 aluminumtubing : When they say coffee pot, more than likely they mean the hot plate or coffee maker. They are built in an as OB1504 says, it could be more serious due
247 DTWPurserBoy : Increased FAA surveillance of an airline in financial difficulties is pretty standard. It all boils down to which inspector you get and their mood tha
248 MaverickM11 : Yes. Because I have a hard time believing the same entity that constantly issues self destructive, inflammatory PRs is the same one that is diligentl
249 aluminumtubing : Yep it is. We agree. I am a capitalist and the laws of supply and demand almost always pan out. The only problem with capitalism, is that it also bre
250 Post contains images lightsaber : What exactly are the pilots losing? How much of a cut in pay? How are their duty hours changing? How will their work schedule change? I understand the
251 Post contains links XFSUgimpLB41X : FORT WORTH, Texas--(BUSINESS WIRE)-- The Allied Pilots Association (APA), certified collective bargaining agent for the 10,000 pilots of American Airl
252 Post contains images N62NA : Well, that sure makes me feel good about my flight next week.
253 XFSUgimpLB41X : The pay cut would put them at the bottom of the industry- duty hours and schedules increased to the limits that federal law allows. All premium pay g
254 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Geez it's funny how a few days of aging can really sneak up on you and magically cripple an airline out of the blue! Look, AA management failed, scre
255 XFSUgimpLB41X : Funny how easy it is for the wheels to fall off the bus when you pink slip several thousand mechanics and staff your pilots 400 below critical mass, i
256 DeltaMD90 : I'm not denying that AA dropped the ball. It's been well noted (maybe not by the media but here at least) that AA has been having MX and staffing pro
257 aluminumtubing : Not to worry. The things that happen at AA happen at all airlines. Obviously, the more flights per day, the more maintenance issues. The APA is simpl
258 Mir : What crap. This is why we can't have a productive FAA/flight crew relationship. -Mir
259 par13del : You do realize that the creditors are behind the bulk of what is taking place right? Question, do you believe that if the creditors state that they w
260 lightsaber : Finally! But that took too long after management ran the PR game. That is more along the lines of what I was talking about. Please quantify. I doubt
261 Revelation : I think management's goal for quite a while has been to get to where we are right now, and given that, they seem remarkably unprepared. Hard to say,
262 Post contains images N62NA : Oh yeah, I know. I was being a little sarcastic, but thanks for responding.
263 DeltaMD90 : ...wouldn't be the first time they've been unprepared... I can see why many AA employees want to clean house
264 aluminumtubing : There are a few rumors out there right now, but I don't repeat rumors for obvious reasons. They are worthless 99.99 percent of the time. However, as
265 bahadir : This is circulating a lot of pilot forums.. I am sure will not get sympathy from anti-labor a.net members but it makes an interesting read about what
266 DeltaMD90 : Already been posted:
267 gegarrenton : Like I said before, "industry standard" is a fallacy. It's coming to WN, AA, and everyone else. No pilots are going to get paid in the future like in
268 usairways787 : I myself have noticed quite a few painfully slow taxis, so slow infact I could walk faster. We had an aircraft for my company that we could see land,
269 XFSUgimpLB41X : AA is already far from top paid. If you paid the pilots nothing they would still be going bankrupt. The problem lies elsewhere.
270 DashTrash : "Over block will be canceled by under block".
271 XFSUgimpLB41X : IIRC, and aluminumtubing can confirm, the over block cancelled by under block will be implemented on the pilots come Nov 1. That was one of the major
272 Mir : For those of us not in the airline sector, is that basically saying that if flight 1 is blocked for 2:00 and takes 2:15, and flight 2 is blocked for
273 XFSUgimpLB41X : Correct, Mir. If they are scheduled to fly 3 flights of 5 hours each, and they overblock on the first by 30 minutes, and the other 2 under block by 10
274 Mir : So let's say they're scheduled to fly 3 flights of 5 hours each, and they overblock on the first by 15 minutes but underblock on the second and third
275 lightsaber : Please go more into how AA vs. WN pilots are paid. Which airlines pay just block time? Are AA pilots now paid block + "Over block?" Ok, I'm not likin
276 XFSUgimpLB41X : The greater of: scheduled block+ over block duty rig trip rig min day is quite normal. WN has the highest min day and rigs, so they are typically pai
277 ckfred : Which is typical in a Chapter 11 proceeding. They want to get paid. They understand that they will either wind up with a healthy discount on payment,
278 rj777 : Man, this whole mess makes working in retail seem like a dream job! (I won't say which retailer I work for, but still....at least I get paid and get S
279 aluminumtubing : In short, that is correct. However, we are not exactly sure what will happen on November 1st. They are intentionally trying to be punitive after the
280 gegarrenton : The problem doesn't lie elsewhere, it lies everywhere.
281 Post contains images commavia : Just as a purely anecdotal (and thus entirely meaningless ) data point ... I flew AA twice in the last 48 hours. First flight arrived 5 minutes early,
282 DashTrash : I made the switch out of the cockpit and into an office. I miss pushing the thrust levers up, but taking my kid fishing anytime I want beats it. I st
283 DTWPurserBoy : It is our way not to air our corporate laundry in front of the passengers and it would be inappropriate to have an employee unwittingly get drawn int
284 Post contains images jfklganyc : "Like I said before, "industry standard" is a fallacy. It's coming to WN, AA, and everyone else. No pilots are going to get paid in the future like in
285 Post contains images aluminumtubing : All true statements. But it's not appropriate to confuse facts with emotion!
286 gegarrenton : I may be a lot of things, out of the loop isn't one of them however. If you are talking about over a year, then I really have no comment, as that is
287 ckfred : The problem is that many, many people have never worked in a collective bargaining unit. Their pay and bonus is based on personal performance, employ
288 aluminumtubing : First off, I just get on this site to give a pilots perspective, especially at AA during these trying times. No one has to agree with me or provide a
289 Post contains images gegarrenton : Be careful, that can be even more dangerous!!!
290 Post contains images aluminumtubing : Probably the most accurate statement on this entire thread!!!!
291 LAXintl : Operation not doing well on Monday. So far as of noon Central -- 97 mainline cancels.
292 Post contains images lightsaber : Ouch. Do things stabilize later in the day or snowball? Interesting read. Thank you. Lightsaber
293 flyfree727 : You should also include that 76 of those were cancelled , by AA, DAYS in advance. Those passengers have long been accommodated before today. Its not
294 LAXintl : 97 is much much worse then 23 for instance on Sunday. 97 represents and appalling 5% of the days scheduled operation. btw - its up to 101 as of 1pm Ce
295 flyfree727 : And, again, these are flights that AA has PRE Cancelled. Sun, 9/23 was 103, 81 which were pre cancelled by AA These similiar numbers have already bee
296 LAXintl : Precancel or day off, is not much difference. You still inconvenience thousands of passengers, significantly impact the operation along with continue
297 flyfree727 : Agreed. This I agree with you on. I only wanted to point out that the "picture" of inconvenience is different. There are not thousands of passengers
298 Post contains links srbmod : Please continue the discussion here: AA Cancellations Continue (by NWADTWE16 Sep 23 2012 in Civil Aviation)
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