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Ryanair Abandons Passengers In Rijeka  
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24615 times:

Good morning.


More bad press for Ryanair this time originating in the Balkans. A Ryanair flights from Rijeka to Stockholm Skavsta was cancelled due to strong winds. The problem occured when the flight departed two hours later without any passengers which made sense since they did not inform the passengers.

Ryanair did not provide alternatives to the passengers leaving them on their own to find their way home; this was further complicated by the fact that there is no internet connection at the airport. Some passengers had to spend up to €1,000 to get home and Ryanair is refusing to refund their travel expenses.
The Swedish Consumer Agency, Konsumentverket, has slammed Ryanair for its conduct last Friday. It says the airline was required to offer help with finding passengers alternative transport and provide them with food and accommodation.


Now, I am no expert but if the flight was cancelled wasn't Ryanair's duty under European Union law to find an alternative way home for these passengers?

For those interested you can read the full article here:

http://exyuaviation.blogspot.com/

JU068

150 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24608 times:

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
Now, I am no expert but if the flight was cancelled wasn't Ryanair's duty under European Union law to find an alternative way home for these passengers?

Croatia is no EU member.


User currently offlinescouseflyer From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 3386 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24592 times:

Don't know the laws and whether Ryansir abides by them but when I was travelling them and it looked like our flight was to be cancelled they just kept saying "you'll be refunded for your ticket" which I had bought 9 months previously for £35 - that wouldn't of been much use in trying to get back to the UK at such short notice.........

User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24576 times:

As I always say ¨pay peanuts, get monkeys¨

Quoting ju068 (Thread starter):
Now, I am no expert but if the flight was cancelled wasn't Ryanair's duty under European Union law to find an alternative way home for these passengers?

Yes. but obviously they (FR) will alegate the flight was delayed/cancelled due to weather related issues and therefore not their fault.

But I don´t know how much this rule covers.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24549 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):

Doesn't matter, they are going to become a member in July 2013. Also if these rules apply in Serbia, which is nowhere close to being an EU member, then I do not see why they would not apply in Craotia.


User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1136 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24549 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Croatia is no EU member.

The EU Regulations apply to any flight operating within, or with an origin or destination within the EU.

Quote:
You are also entitled to identical compensation to that offered when you are denied boarding, unless you were informed of the cancellation at least 14 days before the flight, or you were rerouted close to your original times, or if the airline can prove that the cancellation was caused by extraordinary circumstances. In addition the airline must offer you the choice between:
1. reimbursement of your ticket within seven days;
2. re-routing to your final destination under similar conditions;
3. and if necessary, care (phone call, refreshments, food, accommodation, transportation to the accommodation).
http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passen...rights/en/07-air-cancellation.html


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24528 times:

Sweden is a EU member and that is the place where the ticketes were bought.

With your argument, any carrier could abandon passengers in Cochabamba or Sydney and tell them to see how they get back home.

The carrier is responsible in such circumstances , simple as that. Thje problem with FR is, that they seem to have a legal adress in ireland only, they cannot be reached n any other country they serve. The 180 people from this flight should unite and share the cost for the law suit in Ireland.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1136 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24511 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
The carrier is responsible in such circumstances , simple as that. Thje problem with FR is, that they seem to have a legal adress in ireland only, they cannot be reached n any other country they serve. The 180 people from this flight should unite and share the cost for the law suit in Ireland.

They should be able to find redress through the Swedish consumer protection agency that is responsible for these complaints in Sweden.


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24513 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Croatia is no EU member.

The protection accorded to passengers departing from OR to an airport located in a Member State should be extended to those leaving an airport located in a third country for one situated in a Member State, when a Community carrier operates the flight and where a community carrier is defined as any carrier licensed to operate within that community.

departing from an EU member state, or
travelling to an EU member state on an airline based in an EU member state

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulation_261/2004

MIAspotter



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 24493 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
The 180 people from this flight should unite and share the cost for the law suit in Ireland.

Not if it was weather related and stated in the conditions of travel which everybody accepted. Many airlines use weather as an excuse.


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24447 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):

Well the plane was already there so they could have delayed the flight until the weather calmed. I guess it was easier to cancel it since like that they would not need to provide the passengers with refreshments.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24387 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Not if it was weather related and stated in the conditions of travel which everybody accepted. Many airlines use weather as an excuse.

and many of them use the same excuse to jump holding queues and declare emergency landings...


I will for once agree with MOL, these passengers were stupid to book Ryanair in the first place... They got what they paid for!



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24325 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 9):
Not if it was weather related and stated in the conditions of travel which everybody accepted. Many airlines use weather as an excuse.

they will not be compensated, that's correct. But FR is still responsible to fulfill their part of the contract and that is, getting the passengers back home safely. What FR did here is simply a breach of contract. Period.

Regardless what their fine print on 40 pages might say. Illegal conditions of contract are nil and void.

[Edited 2012-09-18 01:28:28]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 256 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24259 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 11):
I will for once agree with MOL, these passengers were stupid to book Ryanair in the first place... They got what they paid for!

When I fly FR, I know what to expect in terms of service and baggage policy, as you said "i know what I paid for". But I certainly do not expect to be stranded in an airport for whatever reasons without being advised/compensated with a minimum of respect that should be relevant for any carrier...including low costs.

Flying low cost does not mean being treated like animals..


User currently offlineual777uk From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2005, 3356 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 24168 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 13):
Flying low cost does not mean being treated like animals..

Clearly it does if you go with FR. You need to keep your fingers crossed for the whole flight there and back as when it goes wrong, they do not give a toss about you....been there, got the T-Shirt and will never fly them again, no matter how much more it costs to go out of the way.


User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2498 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 23914 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 13):
Flying low cost does not mean being treated like animals..

With Ryanair yes. It has been proven millions of times in the past... and it will happen all over again...

The fact that the flight left empty to Stockholm 2 hours laters says a lot about how much Ryanair cares about you or your customer...

I am definitely not flying them. And I prefer giving my money to other airlines that treat me decenty and that treat their personnel decently which we always tend to forget...

Ryanair has indeed lowered the cost of flying in Europe but it certainly lowered the quality of service and lowered the standard of living of all cabin crews around Europe...



Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23238 times:

Now, while I'm all for a good Ryanair bashing, there are a few pesky things such as facts, or lack of them to be more precise, which bothers me about this cancellation. Either Ryanair screwed things up more that is apparent on first glance (mainly, violating their own terms & conditions), or a frustrated customer is making things up. Currently I'm leaning towards the latter, as there are no other sources for this news item anywhere else. But I'd still wait for more facts and sources to even consider this is anything noteworthy.

I'll also just paste the Ryanair terms & conditions from their website. According to these, the cancellation & following actions shouldn't have been more than a slight nuisance for the passengers.

Quote:
9.2 CANCELLATION AND DELAYS

9.2.1 Except as otherwise provided by the Convention or Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004, if we cancel a flight, fail to operate a flight reasonably according to schedule or cease to operate a route, we shall, at your option, either:

9.2.1.1 carry you at the earliest opportunity on another of our scheduled services on which space is available between the same routing points or, alternatively and exceptionally, and subject to specific agreement with you and to the exclusion of any other obligation, arrange for you to travel on one or more of our scheduled flights without making any additional charge either (i) via another airport served by us to your destination airport or (ii) from an alternate airport served by us to your destination airport or (iii) from your airport of origin to an alternate airport served by us within the same country as your original destination or (iv) from an alternate airport served by us to an alternate destination airport within the same country as your original destination; or

9.2.1.2 carry you on the same route to your final destination at a later date at your convenience subject to seat availability; or

9.2.1.3 make a refund in accordance with the provisions of Article 10.2.

9.2.2 If your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least two hours, ask at the check-in counter or boarding gate for the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance. (click here for the text setting out these rights)


User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23174 times:

I'll add a bit more information which I was able to dig up:

http://www.croatiantimes.com/news/Ge...ancelled_Rijeka_-_Stockholm_flight

Quote:
Speaking to the Croatian Times, Head of Communications Stephen McNamara said: "Ryanair sincerely apologised to passengers and offered them a switch to the next available flight, re-routing through another Ryanair base or a full refund.
"Ryanair also immediately emailed passengers information to allow them to change their flight free of charge via Manage My Booking, or via our reservation agents," he said.
He added: "Passengers who experienced additional accommodation or meal expenses, as a result of this cancelation, should send copies of all receipts to Ryanair for refund.
"Ryanair flight cancelations are extremely rare, with just 10 out of over 150,000 Ryanair flights cancelled in the last three months," he said.

So basically, Ryanair DID cancel the flight. They also promised to get everyone to their destinations. And they're reimbursing all costs for accommodation and meals.

So, what exactly did they do wrong? Delays, cancellations and missing transfers are extremely common, sadly.

But if Ryanair does it, the bashing commences  


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 23039 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 16):
as there are no other sources for this news item anywhere else. But I'd still wait for more facts and sources to even consider this is anything noteworthy.

Here is a Croatian source:
http://www.index.hr/vijesti/clanak/o...-zracnoj-luci-na-krku-/637457.aspx

And here is a Swedish source:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/resa/flyg/article15456246.ab

In the Croatian one it says that they were left with no choice but to look for their own arrangement. I am sorry but I would rather trust them than Ryanair.


User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22933 times:

ju068, this is exactly the same information.

I'm just pointing out that there are gaps in the story which make it hard (for at least me) to take it at face value. We are still getting information from just one family, and their information seems to contradict Ryanair. Now, I am convinced that some sort of mis-communication between the passengers, Ryanair and the airport staff occurred.

If the passengers were not informed at the airport about their rights and what to do in these situations, then the blame falls on the airport and indeed on Ryanair by proxy. If the passengers were informed but the package they were offered did not suit their needs and they took off on a long taxi drive, then I can't see how Ryanair is to blame there. Earlier this spring FlyBe cancelled my flight from Stockholm and provided us with accommodation in a hotel and a spot with the earliest flight on the next day. We still took off on our own and flew home the same evening with another carrier. Did not once for a second think to demand reimbursement or go to the media complaining. They fulfilled their obligations in terms of cancellations, we just needed to get back sooner. So we paid the cost.

For some reason this still smells of people not knowing their rights and Ryanair's obligations in such situations. And what do reasonable people do? That's right. Whine to the media.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22915 times:

Nice try, Ryanair. They operate twice weekly from Rijeka to Skavsta, these are the only flights to any destination in the FR network. Assuming that all flights are more or less fully booked the stranded passengers have no choice other than walking.

The conditions of contract restrict carriage to Ryanair. Now, FR cannot handle unless they position an aircraft to Rijeka to pick up the stranded passengers, For them, that would actually be the cheapest option.

FR has done that before, leaving the passnegrs stranded at an airport not making any attempzts to fill their part of the contract.

If FR cannot do it they have to make alternative arrangements, that can be Croation or any other airline. They HAVE to do it. The restriction to FR obliges FR to either send an aircraft or the passengers to make laternate arrangements and bill FR for the cost. A waiting time of several hours has to bee observed and after that pax are free to go on their own at the expense of FR.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 22824 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 19):

I think you have your answer below to as why they couldn't accept the deal offered to them, that is to be on the next flight out of there. Ryanair flies only to London from Rijeka (other than Stockholm) and knowing how popular Croatia is among Brits I doubt there were many seats left. I think most people on that flights could simply not wait a few days for the next flight. On top of it all the real question is if there would be enough place for everyone on the following flights.
Yes, it is nice of Ryanair to offer an alternative, but it depends if that alternative is realistic or not.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):


User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12428 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22590 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 7):
They should be able to find redress through the Swedish consumer protection agency that is responsible for these complaints in Sweden.

Does this agency have any "teeth", i.e. can it impose fines or any other punishment on FR; clearly, if what is being alleged is correct, FR needs to have a shot fired across its bows.


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 22501 times:

Today at work I heard the European Ombudsman say that Ryanair had contacted them, I just wonder in what context. It is nice to see the airline complain at the office of the Ombudsman when they themselves do not respect European laws and regulations.

User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 22272 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 15):
Ryanair has indeed lowered the cost of flying in Europe but it certainly lowered the quality of service and lowered the standard of living of all cabin crews around Europe...

Oh please, what utter sentimental rot. Ryanair has done nothing apart from a service, the people of Europe have decided that they prefer Lo-Cost airlines to overpriced full-fare airlines.

The reason cabin crews standard of living has decreased is because it is basically an unskilled job that lots of people are more than willing to do - it's called market forces.



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 25, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 22786 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 23):
It is nice to see the airline complain at the office of the Ombudsman

They were complaining? Can you tell us what the complaint was please and thanks?



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 26, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22623 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 17):
So basically, Ryanair DID cancel the flight. They also promised to get everyone to their destinations. And they're reimbursing all costs for accommodation and meals.

So, what exactly did they do wrong?

Because everybody thinks one family crying in a newspaper is a trustworthy source...

Quoting ju068 (Reply 23):
It is nice to see the airline complain at the office of the Ombudsman when they themselves do not respect European laws and regulations.

What law did they not respect? They promised to get everyone to their destinations via next flight or via another base. And they're reimbursing all costs for accommodation and meals.

You are really full steam bashing again.


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 27, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22814 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 25):

Well since they have complained to the Ombudsman it means that they are having a problem with one of the EU institutions.
My guess is that they are having a problem with the grants they receive from regional governments; and since most of these grants come from EU funds... voila.

I will aks for more details tomorrow.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 22793 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 15):
lowered the standard of living of all cabin crews around Europe...

Thats just business. My company moved from Holland to Hungary, so I followed. Standard of living is much lower, but thats life. Btw, having just a fifth of my former wages I need cheap fares to fly every month  

So its basically a circle.


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22697 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 24):
The reason cabin crews standard of living has decreased is because it is basically an unskilled job that lots of people are more than willing to do - it's called market forces.

Unskilled job? are you kidding me? my gf is a CCM at FR and she had to endure a 2 month intensive training (paid for by her of course) and believe me it is quite a lot of information to take into (I´ve read the manual)

So basically all around the world, everyday hundreds and hundreds of people trust their lives to a bunch of unskilled people when they fly (be it any airline)

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19510 posts, RR: 58
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22653 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 11):

I will for once agree with MOL, these passengers were stupid to book Ryanair in the first place... They got what they paid for!

No. This is not true, not legally and not ethically.

When a passenger purchases air travel, they purchase air travel. They have a right to expect: 1) habitable conditions (no extremes of temperature, breathable air, water, and serviceable lavatories. 2) humane treatment (no trapping people on a grounded plane for 8 hours) 3) transportation to the destination.

A cheap ticket does not mean that the carrier can simply breach the terms of the contract and fail to provide the contracted service. It also does not mean that the airline can physically torture its customers (trapping people in a metal box with no air circulation on a hot tarmac is one such example). A cheap ticket means to expect no frills, not to expect to be stranded, treated inhumanely, or safety violations.


User currently offlinejlarsson From Sweden, joined Sep 2007, 97 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22565 times:

Quoting AF185 (Reply 13):
Flying low cost does not mean being treated like animals..
Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 15):
With Ryanair yes. It has been proven millions of times in the past... and it will happen all over again...

And yet, people are stupid enough to fly with them.
The more you fly with them you send th signal that it's ok to be treated like sh*t.



Next trip; ARN-FRA-YYC-YVR-SEA-ORD-BOS-MUC-GOT.
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 32, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22348 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 34):
They did not contact the Ombudsman for this but for another problem.

Thank you, I read it like FR contacted the Ombudsman on this occassion and that the two were related.

Quoting ju068 (Reply 34):
The strange part is that the flight departed empty back to Stockholm roughly two hours later. I wouldn't be surprised in Ryanair conveniently used the weather excuse to cancel the flight in order to avoid giving the passengers refreshments due to a delay.

But surely that is less expensive than having to pay any dues in relation to EU laws? Stephen McNamara has already stated that passengers will be reimbursed for their expenses.



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently onlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7526 posts, RR: 3
Reply 33, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 22306 times:

One other point that remains unclear is this, did FR make the offer when the flight was cancelled or when the s*** hit the fan?.

User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 22109 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 24):
The reason cabin crews standard of living has decreased is because it is basically an unskilled job that lots of people are more than willing to do - it's called market forces.
Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 29):
she had to endure a 2 month intensive training (paid for by her of course) and believe me it is quite a lot of information to take into (I´ve read the manual)

having a 2 month training is still "unskilled". It means anyone can take a very short course and become an FA, it´s not like becoming a physician or engineer (a 5 year-long intensive training, paid by the student, of course)... Since anyone can become an FA then the market is much, much bigger....


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 35, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 20598 times:

Quoting falkerker (Reply 34):
having a 2 month training is still "unskilled". It means anyone can take a very short course and become an FA, it´s not like becoming a physician or engineer (a 5 year-long intensive training, paid by the student, of course)... Since anyone can become an FA then the market is much, much bigger....

Well it is a 2 month course in order to obtain a skill, and a longer course on other airlines, where you learn a lot of stuff, like dealing with fire, medical emergencies and other skills.

And even before you start the course, you already need to meet a certain criteria (English or other languages, Customer service background, which I consider skills)

Is not like any yobo can just pop in on the interview day and get shoved into the training centre.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlinebrilondon From Canada, joined Aug 2005, 4200 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 20107 times:

Does FR not have to follow the same Passenger Bill of Rights that Europe has or has that gone by the wayside?


Rush for ever; Yankees all the way!!
User currently offlineNoris From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2009, 11 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 19655 times:

When you book a flight on the Ryanair website, does it not state the EU 261 regulation as a mandatory charge or levy?

Rgds.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1326 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 19557 times:

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 29):
a 2 month intensive training


Two months training, however intense, does not mean it's a skilled job. They are being given the absolute legal minimum training, elevating them barely above the level of a McDonald's burger flipper. About the only skill required is the willingness to be shafted by MOL, and worked hard for a pittance of a salary. But if you're "lucky", you may have a picture of yourself in a bathing suit included in a calendar, which of course does nothing but further reduce the image of your average FR biscuit chucker.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 18893 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 38):

Exactly what I meant! Thanks!


User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 40, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 18840 times:

posted twice by mistake, again... having issues with Chrome.

Mods, please delete, sorry.

[Edited 2012-09-18 15:50:41]

User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 41, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 11172 times:

When Ryan air is so cheap that they even cant fuel the planes properly which has results in several emergency landings,then its time to look for a alternative.....i cant for the love of god understand how people can get on this aircraft with there families! They fine there passengers 500€ for being stupid,and leave them at there destiny at airports......the only idiots are those who fly with them!


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 42, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 11130 times:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 41):

When Ryan air is so cheap that they even cant fuel the planes properly which has results in several emergency landings,then its time to look for a alternative.....i cant for the love of god understand how people can get on this aircraft with there families! They fine there passengers 500€ for being stupid,and leave them at there destiny at airports......the only idiots are those who fly with them

How people can get on their aircraft? First of all - cheap. Second of all - world's 6th largest airline and with 0 fatalities. Most of the crap thrown against Ryanair is utter nonsense and just emotional drivel. But hey, they are an easy target!


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 43, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 10800 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 38):
Two months training, however intense, does not mean it's a skilled job. They are being given the absolute legal minimum training, elevating them barely above the level of a McDonald's burger flipper.

Next time you board a flight on any airline, I invite you to call a F/A ¨burguer flipper¨ see who´s gonna save your ass in case of an emergency, maybe you and Falkerker are ¨skilled¨ enough to do it yourselves.

MIAspotter.



I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 10697 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 42):
world's 6th largest airline and with 0 fatalities.

Well,lets hope that the next emergency landing due to lack of fuel,which seems to have been one of there new way to save a dollar or two lately makes it stay that way!



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1326 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 10614 times:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 41):
When Ryan air is so cheap that they even cant fuel the planes properly which has results in several emergency landings,then its time to look for a alternative

I'm sorry, but that statement is nothing but idiotic drivel. Anybody with just the slightest knowledge of aviation will know that a) anything you read in the media about aviation will be full of factual inaccuracies and b) Ryanair are subject to a level of oversight that will not allow to "under-fuel" aircraft.

What Ryanair are doing, just like a lot of other airlines, is flying with the minimum required fuel. Carrying extra fuel costs money, and the days of Captains loading an extra 500kg for the wife and kids are over. What this means is that in 99.999% of cases the flight will make it to destination, but when circumstances collide (poor weather, crap Spanish ATC) then sometimes a diversion will be carried out. And when that happens some bucket and spade passenger will call his or her favourite tabloid, who'll happily print yet another derogatory story about Ryanair.

Let me be clear, I won't fly Ryanair. But the reason for that has nothing to do with safety.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 43):
Next time you board a flight on any airline, I invite you to call a F/A ¨burguer flipper¨ see who´s gonna save your ass in case of an emergency, maybe you and Falkerker are ¨skilled¨ enough to do it yourselves.


First of all this is an internet forum, where one can use language that won't be fit for a personal conversation. Secondly, why would I tell a cabin crew member what they already know, namely that the specific training carried out to achieve the position with an airline like Ryanair, does not mean they are "skilled" workers? Thirdly, and this I find the most interesting, you're actually accusing cabin attendants of willful neglect of duties, because something a passenger said might insult them. Seriously, are you that far removed from the realities of operating an airline?

I've been working in aviation for upwards of 25 years, and have the utmost of respect for my colleagues in departments across the industry. And I know that a person who has spent 4 years to become an engineer, or 2 years to become a pilot, or 3 years to get a degree is a skilled worker. But I also know that a guy who's been given a 2 week introduction course to work on the ramp, or a guy who's been given 2 months of training to become a cabin attendant does not fall in the same category. That doesn't mean their jobs are not important, just that they're not skilled workers.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 10618 times:

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 44):
Well,lets hope that the next emergency landing due to lack of fuel,which seems to have been one of there new way to save a dollar or two lately makes it stay that way!

Three Ryanair planes had to make emergency landings (with sufficient fuel still left for 30 mins of flight) due to a bad weather system. I'm not hearing Virgin Atlantic bashing when back in January, two of their flights had to do exactly the same thing.

While we can have a debate on how Ryanair treats its passengers or how moral the terms & conditions are, there haven't been ANY facts that would leave me to even contemplate that Ryanair is unsafe to fly. So why not keep such statements out of the discussion.


User currently offlineaerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2826 posts, RR: 15
Reply 47, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 10370 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 38):
They are being given the absolute legal minimum training, elevating them barely above the level of a McDonald's burger flipper.

Hmm, I think McDonalds employees have it a lot easier on the ground if they have to deal with fires & first aid; also are McDonalds employees expected to deal with decompressions, ditching, emergency landings?....I have over 12 years experience in customer service, WHICH IS A SKILL, I can speak fluent English, & basic Spanish, French & German...funny, think they are also skills...sure we learn a lot in a small amount of time, but we are expected to know it,& if you don't, then you are out. This is not exclusive to FR, so why are you bringing it up here? Also, believe me, trying to find places for 189+ bags, including oversized ones which some pax consider "hand luggage", & trying to seat a family of 6 which has just boarded last on a packed plane, takes skill. If you don't believe me, try it for yourself. I can't believe someone would be so condescending about airline staff, in an airline orientated website. I'm not comparing myself to a surgeon or engineer, but I will not let you think I just stand there giving out tea or bloody coffee.

[Edited 2012-09-19 03:41:42]


Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 10123 times:

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 45):
That doesn't mean their jobs are not important, just that they're not skilled workers.
Quoting aerdingus (Reply 47):
but I will not let you think I just stand there giving out tea or bloody coffee.

It´s certainly not an easy job. Any customer service job requires some degree of patience. What I mean by "unskilled" is (practically) anyone can just show up, take a short course (and yes, 2 months is a short course) and become an FA. The whole discussion started because FAs are getting paid less and less due to that fact. (almost) anyone can become an FA in a very short time and so it is easier for airlines to find people who will accept lower wages. For example, if a hospital wanted to pay less to any specialist, they can´t just admit someone, make them take a 2 month course and voila! That´s the point, since it is certainly easier to become an FA, and more and more people are willing to do so, the "price" so to speak for the airline to hire an FA will become increasingly lower.


User currently offlineB777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 1326 posts, RR: 3
Reply 49, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 9925 times:

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 47):
but I will not let you think I just stand there giving out tea or bloody coffee.

You may wish to go back and read my post again. Did I ever say that's the only function of the job?

An airline cabin attendant is not a skilled job. I know it's an important job, I know the top priority is safety and not handing out tea and coffee, but it's not a skilled job. The very fact that it only requires very little training (compared to a skilled job) means that it is, in relative terms, very easy to recruit and train.

As I said up thread, I have the utmost respect for all my colleagues in all departments of the business, but that doesn't mean that all jobs are skilled jobs. The position of cabin attendant is one of those who is not.



From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 50, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 9854 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 1):
Croatia is no EU member.

Ryanair is registered in EU.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 45):
First of all this is an internet forum, where one can use language that won't be fit for a personal conversation.

You got that backwards. Everything you post here should be fit for a conversation.

Remember the sites TOC 

a) Please respect the opinions of others and choose your words wisely. Each user has their own point of view, and these views must be respected.

b) Please word all criticism, whether of another user's opinion, a photograph, crew member, a political topic, etc., in a constructive manner. Criticism which serves no purpose other than to incite or insult other members will be deleted and your account possibly suspended.

f) Do not provoke other users or incite trouble. Do not allow others to provoke you.


User currently offline135mech From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 412 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9735 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Okay, did I miss something, earlier it was said that the plane was already there and then flew out EMPTY...without it's passengers... is that true? If so, then that would be just plain stupid!

User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 52, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9631 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 51):

Yes, the plane was sitting on the tarmac and then after two hours it took off.


User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 53, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9604 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 51):
flew out EMPTY...without it's passengers... is that true? If so, then that would be just plain stupid!

Perhaps the F/O missed that point in the pre-departure checklist   

Passengers : CHECK

  


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 54, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9602 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 52):
Yes, the plane was sitting on the tarmac and then after two hours it took off.

Passengers probably already left, and the plane was most likely needed somewhere else in the network. Nobody could have guessed that the situation would suddenly allow take offs again so soon.


Ryanair did what it had to do, unfortunately the media believed the story of just one family onboard.


Ryanair Head of Communications Stephen McNamara said: "Ryanair sincerely apologised to passengers and offered them a switch to the next available flight, re-routing through another Ryanair base or a full refund.

"Ryanair also immediately emailed passengers information to allow them to change their flight free of charge via Manage My Booking, or via our reservation agents," he said.

He added: "Passengers who experienced additional accommodation or meal expenses, as a result of this cancelation, should send copies of all receipts to Ryanair for refund.

"Ryanair flight cancelations are extremely rare, with just 10 out of over 150,000 Ryanair flights cancelled in the last three months," he said.


User currently offlineFlaps From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 1266 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9552 times:

Quoting 135mech (Reply 51):
Okay, did I miss something, earlier it was said that the plane was already there and then flew out EMPTY...without it's passengers... is that true? If so, then that would be just plain stupid!

Not at all. Most likely the plane flew directly to its next scheduled destination after Skavsta in order to get back on schedule and thus prevent a domino effect of delays throughout the remainder of its schedule for that day. There are other factors that can figure in as well, including crew rest issues. We dont have any of that information so no conclusions can be drawn, just speculation. Airlines, even FR, dont just randomly leave planeloads of people behind simply for the joy of doing so. The fact that one does not understand all of the various nuances of airline operations does not make the airline stupid. I question many things about the medical field and it's practices but Im an aviation professional not a medical professional so I generally refrain from calling such things stupid just because of my own ignorance in the matter.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 56, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 9539 times:

Ok, so we can all agree now that we can close this thread?

Due to mis or disinformed media this thread started.We can now conclude that the airline:

* cancelled a flight due to weather
* offered pax rebooking via another base or refund the ticket
* pax who incurred accomodation and meal costs will be reimbursed.
* later used the plane involved when weather cleared to prevent problems in the rest of the network.

So what exactly went wrong? Nothing, just the weather.....


User currently offlinefalkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 57, posted (1 year 11 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 9453 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 56):
just the weather

Enough for some to print bad press and call names to an airline, specially if it's FR...

Seriously, you are right, this whole thread was based on wrong information....


User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 9103 times:

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 47):
Also, believe me, trying to find places for 189+ bags, including oversized ones which some pax consider "hand luggage", & trying to seat a family of 6 which has just boarded last on a packed plane, takes skill.

Oh please, stop taking yourself so seriously!

Also, The fact that you include the above examples as the extent of your 'skill' is pretty sad, you might as well have put: "Trying to find seats for a family of 6 people during a packed McBirthday party." or trying to find places for 200 children during a busy shift whilst trying to serve Happy Meals, they are of equal value.

Why is it that during the first half of the 21st century everyone wants to thing themselves heroes just for doing their jobs?



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 9042 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 54):
Passengers probably already left, and the plane was most likely needed somewhere else in the network. Nobody could have guessed that the situation would suddenly allow take offs again so soon.

You do understand that the problem were the strong winds and not tornadoes? I am sure that had they consulted the right people they could have predicted how long this would have lasted.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 54):
Ryanair Head of Communications Stephen McNamara said: "Ryanair sincerely apologised to passengers and offered them a switch to the next available flight, re-routing through another Ryanair base or a full refund.

Yes, now go and check Ryanair's flight schedule out of Rijeka.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 54):
"Ryanair also immediately emailed passengers information to allow them to change their flight free of charge via Manage My Booking, or via our reservation agents," he said.

Good, that should have been convenient taking into consideration there is no internet at Rijeka airport.



I just wonder why was it only Ryanair that had this problem and no other airline. They should have delayed the flight until the weather calmed and then boarded the passengers and left.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 60, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 8892 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 59):
I just wonder why was it only Ryanair that had this problem and no other airline.

Probably because Ryanair takes safety very serious and decided it was not safe to take off? Besides that I dont think Rijeka had many departures during that time.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 61, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 8854 times:

They possibly abandoned theoir passengers at Rijeka because the crew timed out and did not have a toothbrush to stay overnight. Layovers at off base points are not part of the business model.

This is, BTW bad judgement becaus whatever costs will come out of this, flying in a crew or a replacement aircraft from Bergamo would have been cheaper.

FR is responsible for the pax until they reach their destination and the conditions of contract that limit the alternate to FR only are worthless, nil and void., If FR does not offer a solution pax are free to make their own arrangements at the expense of FR.

There's always a possibility to impound an aircraft at a swedish airport if FR does not reimburse these passengers.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8658 times:

Wow, some people will just blindly defend Ryanair no matter what, won't they? Very sad. No matter how some fanboys feel about the Irish Flying Bus Service, once again they provided crappy service. They had a plane full of passengers and a plane but didn't bother to combine the two. Hopefully a hundred people or so just learned to not to use this company again and pay that forward too.

User currently offlineaerdingus From Ireland, joined Dec 2006, 2826 posts, RR: 15
Reply 63, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8641 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 58):
The fact that you include the above examples as the extent of your 'skill' is pretty sad, you might as well have put: "Trying to find seats for a family of 6 people during a packed McBirthday party." or trying to find places for 200 children during a busy shift whilst trying to serve Happy Meals, they are of equal value.

Wow, what McDonalds do you go to- I´ve never been shown to my seat in there. Not really the same thing I´m afraid. There aren´t emergency exits in McDonalds that children are prohibited from sitting at.

I never said I was a hero...



Cabin crew blog http://dolefuldolegirl.blogspot.ie/
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 64, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 8597 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
Wow, some people will just blindly defend Ryanair no matter what, won't they? Very sad.

And some people have a blind hatred for Ryanair no matter what, don't they? I do find it fascinating how people constantly willingly ignore facts (or lack of facts, for that matter) to arrive at (incorrect) conclusions. And I'm quite confident that most people defending Ryanair in this thread would condemn their actions the minute some concrete evidence arose that demonstrates how Ryanair acted as the spawn of satan in this case. But (un)fortunately, depending on the viewpoint, there isn't enough merit in these claims currently to warrant the negativity shown towards Ryanair in this thread.


User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 65, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8506 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 64):
I do find it fascinating how people constantly willingly ignore facts (or lack of facts, for that matter)

If someone makes a statement about something, that is what happened until proven otherwise. Right now there's more evidence that Ryanair are in the wrong than the right. Ryanair abandoned passengers and didn't offer an acceptable solution to get them to their destination. What part of that are you doubting?


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 8502 times:

[

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
Wow, some people will just blindly defend Ryanair no matter what, won't they? Very sad.

Perhaps they are in somewhat involved personally in the airline or they just might be to stupid to know what god service/behaviour is.   

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
Hopefully a hundred people or so just learned to not to use this company again and pay that forward too.

I know that for a fact  



It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8462 times:

They legally fulfilled the rules imposed on delayed or cancelled flights. What else is there other than a moral issue that has no place in this business?


my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 68, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8463 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 67):
They legally fulfilled the rules imposed on delayed or cancelled flights. What else is there other than a moral issue that has no place in this business?

They did not if they let the passengers stranded at Rijeka, If the carroier for whichever reason, cancels a flight or delays for severalhours, they have to provide different transport within reasonable time. Next Monday is not reasonable. "see how you get to another ryanair airport" is not reasonable.

The least that would be expected from a carrier is to organise biuses and trasport the passengers to Treviso, bergamo or wherever. That is not a moral issue, it is a legal issue.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 69, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8408 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 65):

What about the statement made by Ryanair? About reimbursements, etc? What about the lack of other sources, comments from pax left behind? So far, it's just one source - tabloid no less - which carries the story. The blog post and the Croatian news article seem to be based on the initial Swedish article. The lack of evidence is just stunning at the moment.

And I'm glad that trying to argue for an objective treatment of a matter counts as "personal involvement with the airline."


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 70, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8411 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 65):
Ryanair abandoned passengers and didn't offer an acceptable solution to get them to their destination.

They did, they offered rebooking on another flight via another base, or next flight out of Rijeka, or refund. Plus they paid for all meals and accomodation.

What else do you want for pax who paid 20 euro per ticket? Some of you guys just dont get it that you can expect more when the ticket price is so low. More service means more expensive tickets, and thats something we dont want at all.


User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 71, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 8367 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 69):
What about the lack of other sources, comments from pax left behind?

Do you really think that every passenger who felt being mistreated is turning to media? Hardly! i have two cases within my friendship that has "less impressive" experience with Ryanair,which you have no clue about or probably refuse to exist due to lack of evidense,because they didnt turn to media!
Ryan air is probably a great airline as long as its go 100% there way! If it ends up 90% you probably must prepear yourself for "ching ching" your creditcard.....  Wink

[Edited 2012-09-20 05:52:06]


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 72, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8351 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 70):
What else do you want for pax who paid 20 euro per ticket? Some of you guys just dont get it that you can expect more when the ticket price is so low.

Exactly!! People just have to realise that,you get what you paid for...low prize = poorly service! Even be prepered to be called an idiot after you been fined with 500€.

[Edited 2012-09-20 05:46:10]


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 73, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8331 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 56):
So what exactly went wrong? Nothing, just the weather.....



That's just rather what you want to think. What happened is that the pax was told to eff by the airport crew (who claimed they got the info from Ryanair) and only after some time Stephen McNamara sent an email that the passengers couldn't read because of no Internet access, giving excuses of the event.

I'm surprised MOL didn't step up and say, "You are all idiots!" 
Quoting smws (Reply 69):
What about the lack of other sources, comments from pax left behind?



Comments from the pax left behind? Here:

Quote:
– Det var ju skönt att han ber om ursäkt, och så länge vi får ersättning för våra utlägg så är vi nöjda, säger hon.

Men hon tycker ändå att bolaget kunnat sköta det hela bättre.

– Istället för att skicka ut ett mejl som ingen kan läsa, eftersom det inte fanns något internet på flygplatsen, hade det ju kunnat skicka dit personal. Det är inte så mycket man kan göra när man står mitt i en storm utan internet, oavsett hur många mejl man får, säger Mirva Axelsson.



...if you understand Swedish.  
Quoting kl911 (Reply 70):
More service means more expensive tickets, and thats something we dont want at all.



I've flown 12 times this year without touching Ryanair, most flights were with LX, LH and SK. I'm studying here in Sweden so I don't have a job yet. Neither of the airlines I flew were expensive. If there is something expensive, it's Ryanair, as a FR pilot said "You paid nothing, so expect nothing".

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 71):
Ryan air is probably a great airline as long as its go 100% there way!



I will consider FR the day they treat humans as humans, with other words, when MOL leaves.



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8318 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 70):
They did, they offered rebooking on another flight via another base, or next flight out of Rijeka, or refund. Plus they paid for all meals and accomodation.

Telling them to find a way to another Ryanair airport, wait days for another flight or get a refund which would do no good are all useless options. They had an aircraft RIGHT THERE that they chose to fly out empty rather than take the passengers to their destination. They also didn't pay for meals and accommodation, they told passengers to mail in receipts and they'd see about taking care of it. The passengers were still forced to find money from somewhere to get home and then go without that money for however long it takes Ryanair to decide if they're repaying it. They also only sent information by email assuming that people would know they sent it and would have a way to check it, which considering the airport had no internet service, is pushing it. No customer service was offered whatsoever. Your stringent defence of Ryanair in the face of obvious mistreatment of passengers is nothing short of pathetic to me. I can only assume you work for them.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 75, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8312 times:

Its weird to see this thread continue while its proven now that this tabloid newspaper just publiced stuff that was made up by one family.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 73):
I've flown 12 times this year without touching Ryanair, most flights were with LX, LH and SK. I'm studying here in Sweden so I don't have a job yet. Neither of the airlines I flew were expensive. If there is something expensive, it's Ryanair, as a FR pilot said "You paid nothing, so expect nothing".

Good for you, if you preffer connecting flights at large airports with all the hassle.. Besides, why would you need more then a seat to sit on on a European flight less then 2 hours anyway, especially as a student travelling leisure.


User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3548 posts, RR: 3
Reply 76, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8290 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 70):
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 65): Ryanair abandoned passengers and didn't offer an acceptable solution to get them to their destination.
They did, they offered rebooking on another flight via another base, or next flight out of Rijeka, or refund. Plus they paid for all meals and accomodation.

What else do you want for pax who paid 20 euro per ticket? Some of you guys just dont get it that you can expect more when the ticket price is so low. More service means more expensive tickets, and thats something we dont want at all.
Quoting kl911 (Reply 75):
Its weird to see this thread continue while its proven now that this tabloid newspaper just publiced stuff that was made up by one family.

Which bit was made up ? The fact that FR cancelled the flight - No
The fact that the passengers were told to find their own way home - No
The fact that they were intially told to finance their own way home - No
The fact that any alternative FR flight was days away - No
The fact that FR said "send your receipts in and we will consider them" (note consider not pay) - No

Why do you have difficulty with acknowledging that FR once again cancelled a flight as they considered it was in their financial interests to do so.

Always remember that with FR that £20 late evening fare is only producing a minute revenue. If the flight looks like being delayed, its cheaper to them to cancel the flight and hope the passengers accept just their ticket money back, than provide a flight and pay compensation for lateness.


User currently offlineMIAspotter From Spain, joined Nov 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 25
Reply 77, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8285 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 75):
Good for you, if you preffer connecting flights at large airports with all the hassle.. Besides, why would you need more then a seat to sit on on a European flight less then 2 hours anyway, especially as a student travelling leisure.

Well, he does not mention that he had to connect in large airports (and besides ZRH airport is a delightful place to be during connections) you are just assuming.

And also please don´t include everybody in the same boat, some people do want more than a seat in a short european flight, and specially most people would like to have some decent basic service, ground services, being treated courteously and in case of a disruption having a place to go and be informed/compensated/offered alternatives, not being called idiots by the company chief and left on their own.

Most won´t care about food or perks but at least being treated with dignity because at the end of the day they have paid for a service.

Not everybody will crawl over broken glass to get low fares as your signature and MOL says.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2012-09-20 06:27:28]


I think, therefore I don´t fly Ryanair.
User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 78, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 8268 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 75):
Good for you, if you preffer connecting flights at large airports with all the hassle



Let me see, no airport I've been to in my life, has brought hassle. I love large airports, I love watching the traffic at large airports, passengers...planes...  
Quoting kl911 (Reply 75):
Besides, why would you need more then a seat to sit on on a European flight less then 2 hours anyway, especially as a student travelling leisure.



SIN and CGK were more than 2 hours away. 

But I think we both have different opinions, I want a seat where I can sit comfortably for the duration of a short flight, and you want something way more degraded for cheaper.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 77):
and besides ZRH airport is a delightful place to be during connections



I couldn't agree more! 



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineeicvd From Ireland, joined Mar 2008, 2152 posts, RR: 4
Reply 79, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8107 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 59):
Yes, now go and check Ryanair's flight schedule out of Rijeka.

So should FR offer multiple flights a day on every route in their network just so events like this never happen?

Quoting ju068 (Reply 59):
Good, that should have been convenient taking into consideration there is no internet at Rijeka airport.

Tell me how is that Ryanair's fault?

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
Wow, some people will just blindly defend Ryanair no matter what, won't they? Very sad.

Some people will just blindly bash Ryanair no matter what wont they? Very sad....

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
Hopefully a hundred people or so just learned to not to use this company again

I doubt FR & Mick O'Leary himself actually care. Now im no expert at maths but even by my reckoning 100 people out of 80 million is a very small %.

Quoting smws (Reply 64):
And I'm quite confident that most people defending Ryanair in this thread would condemn their actions the minute some concrete evidence arose that demonstrates how Ryanair acted as the spawn of satan in this case

Exactly! We would! (Well I would anyway)

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 65):
If someone makes a statement about something, that is what happened until proven otherwise.

You must be easily fooled then.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 66):
Perhaps they are in somewhat involved personally in the airline or they just might be to stupid to know what god service/behaviour is.

Or smart enough to realise the days of every airline providing good service is long gone?

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 66):
I know that for a fact

Like I said above, I doubt FR or MOL actually care.

Quoting CamiloA380 (Reply 73):
I will consider FR the day they treat humans as humans, with other words, when MOL leaves.

Ive flown FR a few times & I have been treated exactly the same as when I flew with BD & EI.

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 76):
Why do you have difficulty with acknowledging that FR once again cancelled a flight as they considered it was in their financial interests to do so.

We all know every airline does this.


User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 80, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 8089 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 62):
No matter how some fanboys feel about the Irish Flying Bus Service, once again they provided crappy service.

Service is utterly irrelevant to 99% of people who buy their own ticket cost is everything, people WANT planes to be like buses and they are the people who make the market - NOT the airliners.net travel snobs who wish it was the 1950's again.

This incident is irrelevant, people would rather live in a world where they can get dirt cheap fares and are willing to risk incidents like this one than one where they can't. If they didn't airlines like SAS and Iberia wouldn't be failing Ryanair would.

I bet 95% of the people involved in this incident will fly Ryanair again.



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 81, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 8042 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 80):
I bet 95% of the people involved in this incident will fly Ryanair again.

I doubt 95% of the people involved are that stupid.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 82, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 7973 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 80):
I bet 95% of the people involved in this incident will fly Ryanair again.

It wasnt an incident, it was a false accusation by a tabloid newspaper and a "stupid" family.

It was a cancelled flight due to weather, and the airline compensated everybody for accomodation and meals and offered to rebook via another base. Same as any normal airline would have done, only difference is you pay 20x less for a Ryanair ticket.

Pax could btw easily have taken a direct bus or train to Zagreb and book any other carrier they wanedt. Ofcourse its expensive. Compared to a Ryanair ticket everything is expensive.  


As said before, you get and deserve what you pay for. I will fly Ryanir again next week, with pleasure, and not expecting anything but a seat to sit on, which is perfectly fine.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 83, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 7861 times:

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 11):
I will for once agree with MOL, these passengers were stupid to book Ryanair in the first place... They got what they paid for!

I guess there is no nicer way of saying it.. and I do agree.

Quoting AF185 (Reply 13):
But I certainly do not expect to be stranded in an airport for whatever reasons without being advised/compensated with a minimum of respect that should be relevant for any carrier...including low costs.

Allright, but your expectations may be somewhat high, at least in the case of FR. There exist other LCCs most of which are a world better than FR and then there are the legacies, not all that expensive and offer outstanding service (at least compared to FR)

I don't just mean service aboard, but ground service, service before and after the flight.

Quoting ual777uk (Reply 14):
Clearly it does if you go with FR. You need to keep your fingers crossed for the whole flight there and back as when it goes wrong, they do not give a toss about you....been there, got the T-Shirt and will never fly them again, no matter how much more it costs to go out of the way.

I have to agree, and I want to stress that this isn't necessarily the case with all LCCs, this is an FR speciality. They truly are Europe's worst bus service (airline? really?)

LCC does not equate FR, they are in a league of their own. Z-grade.

People clamoring about them being so cheap, well compared to others they aren't really cheap, and considering their business ethics, business practice, treatment of pax and comfort on board, well ... they're looking pretty expensive to me.

There's a lot of cost involved with being stranded in a foreign country without any support from the airline.

I guess also, if one's time is worth nothing, a case may be made for FR to be somewhat reasonable -- and yet no. No they're not.

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 15):
With Ryanair yes. It has been proven millions of times in the past... and it will happen all over again...

  

Indeed.

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 24):
Oh please, what utter sentimental rot. Ryanair has done nothing apart from a service, the people of Europe have decided that they prefer Lo-Cost airlines to overpriced full-fare airlines.

What complete and utter nonsense. FR has added nothing, just profited from a scam where they twist the arm of the EU and states to subsidise their pathetic excuse for an airline, so they can advertise alledgedly cheaper seats - all *government* subsidized.

BTW: The crowd really appreciates also your fealty towards thriftiness by your display of economy when using the letters of the english language. Hi-5

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 30):
No. This is not true, not legally and not ethically.

Tell that to MOL and FR staff. That's the way they make their money.

Quoting jlarsson (Reply 31):
The more you fly with them you send th signal that it's ok to be treated like sh*t.

  

Indeed, but also they live off government subsidies, so unfortunately we can't vote them off the island by not flying FR. They need to be separated from the government teat first.

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 77):
Not everybody will crawl over broken glass to get low fares as your signature and MOL says.

  

Very true.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinebongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3548 posts, RR: 3
Reply 84, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days ago) and read 7747 times:

]

Quoting eicvd (Reply 79):
Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 76):Why do you have difficulty with acknowledging that FR once again cancelled a flight as they considered it was in their financial interests to do so. We all know every airline does this

The difference is that many of the airlines who cancel flights offer their passengers a viable alternative, either on their own flight at a different time of the same day. or on another airline.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 82):
Pax could btw easily have taken a direct bus or train to Zagreb and book any other carrier they wanedt. Ofcourse its expensive. Compared to a Ryanair ticket everything is expensive.

You make it sound so simple, in reality its a trip from a remote airport, back to Rijeka, thena 100 mile journey to Zagreb then to the airport then try to find a flight. These people were left on theor own, and it was only after the event that FR said they would "consider paying expenses"

If FR don't want to respect the letter of the EU laws on travel they should be forced out of business. No other airline appears to have a problem respecting them.


User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (1 year 11 months 6 days ago) and read 7723 times:

Quoting bongodog1964 (Reply 84):
If FR don't want to respect the letter of the EU laws on travel they should be forced out of business. No other airline appears to have a problem respecting them.

I fail to see which letter of the EU travel legislation they failed to respect.

Quote:
9.2 CANCELLATION AND DELAYS

9.2.1 Except as otherwise provided by the Convention or Regulation (EC) No. 261/2004, if we cancel a flight, fail to operate a flight reasonably according to schedule or cease to operate a route, we shall, at your option, either:

9.2.1.1 carry you at the earliest opportunity on another of our scheduled services on which space is available between the same routing points or, alternatively and exceptionally, and subject to specific agreement with you and to the exclusion of any other obligation, arrange for you to travel on one or more of our scheduled flights without making any additional charge either (i) via another airport served by us to your destination airport or (ii) from an alternate airport served by us to your destination airport or (iii) from your airport of origin to an alternate airport served by us within the same country as your original destination or (iv) from an alternate airport served by us to an alternate destination airport within the same country as your original destination; or

9.2.1.2 carry you on the same route to your final destination at a later date at your convenience subject to seat availability; or

9.2.1.3 make a refund in accordance with the provisions of Article 10.2.

9.2.2 If your flight is cancelled or delayed for at least two hours, ask at the check-in counter or boarding gate for the text stating your rights, particularly with regard to compensation and assistance. (click here for the text setting out these rights)

and:

Quote:
Speaking to the Croatian Times, Head of Communications Stephen McNamara said: "Ryanair sincerely apologised to passengers and offered them a switch to the next available flight, re-routing through another Ryanair base or a full refund.
"Ryanair also immediately emailed passengers information to allow them to change their flight free of charge via Manage My Booking, or via our reservation agents," he said.
He added: "Passengers who experienced additional accommodation or meal expenses, as a result of this cancelation, should send copies of all receipts to Ryanair for refund.
"Ryanair flight cancelations are extremely rare, with just 10 out of over 150,000 Ryanair flights cancelled in the last three months," he said.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 86, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7670 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 70):
What else do you want for pax who paid 20 euro per ticket? Some of you guys just dont get it that you can expect more when the ticket price is so low. More service means more expensive tickets, and thats something we dont want at all.

Hang on there. It doesn't matter what a customer paid, the supplier must always comply with legal requirements.

Quoting eicvd (Reply 79):
Tell me how is that Ryanair's fault?

It isn't Ryanair's fault they do not have Internet access. It is Ryanair's fault they relied on Internet to inform stranded passengers at an airport they should have known doesn't have Internet access.


User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 87, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7606 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 87):
Hang on there. It doesn't matter what a customer paid, the supplier must always comply with legal requirements.

And not once has it been proven in this thread that Ryanair failed to comply with requirements!


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 88, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7574 times:

Quoting eicvd (Reply 79):
So should FR offer multiple flights a day on every route in their network just so events like this never happen?

No, not at all. But in a case like this (which they acknowledge is very rare) they should find a real solution, for example sending another plane.

Even crappy charter airlines with a 3 planes fleet manage to do that.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 89, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7561 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 85):
I fail to see which letter of the EU travel legislation they failed to respect.

Why do quote Ryanair's TOC when you talk about EU legislation?

Quoting smws (Reply 87):
And not once has it been proven in this thread that Ryanair failed to comply with requirements!

I commented on the claim that you should have no expectations if you pay 20 Euro.

I don't feel I know enough to say if the complied or not but I think it is very likely they didn't. There is a requirement the airline must inform passengers about their rights. I find it very likely that sending an email isn't considered complying with that requirement.


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 90, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 7444 times:

Why did Ryanair have to send the passengers e-mails? Couldn't their handling agent inform the passengers like it always happens?

User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 91, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7167 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 82):
It was a cancelled flight due to weather, and the airline compensated everybody for accomodation and meals and offered to rebook via another base.

Why do you keep repeating that and twisting it to make your beloved airline look better? People had no choice but to make their way to another airport or wait days for another flight. Ryanair also flew out the aircraft empty rather than take the passengers to their destination. They also did NOT compensate anyone. People had to pay large sums of money and then submit receipts to Ryanair, meaning they're out of pocket until Ryanair decide if they're going to pay anything. Those are the FACTS, not the version you insist on repeating that make Ryanair look much better than they were.


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 92, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7137 times:

Flying is no different from taking an international bus or train. If you have a trainticket ( which most likely costs more then a Ryanair ticket ), and a train is cancelled do you think the railway company will provide accomodation and meals?

I once had a train Koper - Ljubljana - Munich- Amsterdam where the Ljubljana-Munich service got cancelled. Everybody just rebooked themselves or stayed in a hotel for one night for next days train. No way would we ask or expect the train company to pay for this. I had a 150 Euro extra cost for hostel and new seatreservations.


User currently offlinemilesrich From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1995 posts, RR: 6
Reply 93, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7147 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 91):
Quoting kl911 (Reply 82):
It was a cancelled flight due to weather, and the airline compensated everybody for accomodation and meals and offered to rebook via another base.

Why do you keep repeating that and twisting it to make your beloved airline look better? People had no choice but to make their way to another airport or wait days for another flight. Ryanair also flew out the aircraft empty rather than take the passengers to their destination. They also did NOT compensate anyone. People had to pay large sums of money and then submit receipts to Ryanair, meaning they're out of pocket until Ryanair decide if they're going to pay anything. Those are the FACTS, not the version you insist on repeating that make Ryanair look much better than they were.


Sounds to me as if Ryanair should change their Two Letter designator to FY, and I don't mean that to stand for first and economy. A check of the current codes in use shows that FY is available.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 94, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

Quoting milesrich (Reply 93):
A check of the current codes in use shows that FY is available.

Excellent  
Quoting kl911 (Reply 92):
No way would we ask or expect the train company to pay for this. I had a 150 Euro extra cost for hostel and new seatreservations.

They must arrange for alternate service by bus to the next station where a service is available.
I agree with you that , especially on FR, the servce is more like a city bus. Still, even the city bus must take you from A to B once you have bought a ticket.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 95, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7053 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 92):
Flying is no different from taking an international bus or train. If you have a trainticket ( which most likely costs more then a Ryanair ticket ), and a train is cancelled do you think the railway company will provide accomodation and meals?

No, because they EU did not set the same rules for busses, trains and planes. Actually when the European legislation was prepared it was the European Parliament who insisted to launch a jihad against the traditional airlines making the life of lowcosts easier.
Funny how these days the European Union is battling the low costs.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 96, posted (1 year 11 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6996 times:

The EU law in question has nothing to do with low costs. When there was the volcano situation, some people ended up staying in the Maldives and such for a week or more on the airlines dime.

In the case of Ryanair they have even less an excuse since they specifically charge you for the insurance costs !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 97, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 6812 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 83):
What complete and utter nonsense. FR has added nothing, just profited from a scam where they twist the arm of the EU and states to subsidise their pathetic excuse for an airline, so they can advertise alledgedly cheaper seats - all *government* subsidized.

What utter garbage - "all" Ryanair flights are subsidised? The British government subsidises Ryanair on DUB-LTN? Could we have some proof?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 83):
BTW: The crowd really appreciates also your fealty towards thriftiness by your display of economy when using the letters of the english language. Hi-5

Sorry, I don't understand your English here, deep breath and try again!



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 98, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6720 times:

How hard is it to understand that there is no case of violation against EU legislation or Ryanair's terms and conditions (which are key here as the passengers accepted them by purchasing the tickets).

Now, it's unfortunate that one family was left behind and had to get home on their own and by incurring the initial costs themselves (which will be reimbursed later).

What this does is actually just highlight te danger if flying a low-cost airline. 93% of the time they get our to your destination on time. 6.999% there's a delay and the plane is late. And then there are the few cancelled flights. In the case of the last two nuisances, passengers get the bare minimum support required by the law. If you're worried about making tight connections then Ryanair naturally isn't the best choice. And if yo fly to a location that doesn't see regular daily service, then Ryanair might not be ideal solution either. If your flight does get cancelled, they do provide you with accomodation and meal reimbursement and get you home at te earliest possibility. You don't get to choose how or when you get back. And this is something you've agreed with already by purchasing the ticket!

10 cancellations out of 150000 flights isn't't that bad. That's at most 1900 people affected by cancellations. I family has gone to the media, not lodged an official complaint or anything. This topic is moronic and has isn't based on solid facts. So lets find another angle for bashing Ryanair.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 99, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 6688 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 98):
How hard is it to understand that there is no case of violation against EU legislation or Ryanair's terms and conditions (which are key here as the passengers accepted them by purchasing the tickets).

How hard is it to understand that anyone can sign any conditions of contract which violate common law? The acceptance of cc that do not hold up in court means nothing. If you rent an appartment and the landlord lets you sign that you cannot take a shower at 3 am , take a shower any time you want. The clause is nil and void as it violates the law.

The carrier has a contract with the passenger which the carrier has to fill. Leaving passengers behind is not an option for the carrier, regardless what the conditions of contract say. The carrier has to undertake all efforts to get the passengers to their destination within reasonable time.

The price of the ticket has nothing to do with that. If the carrier is not pricing in such foreseeable costs it is his fault, not the passengers.

FR has done this before and they will do it again and it does not matter if this was a planeload or a family.

There are some EU countries where the conditions of contract would not even hold up in court as such. Guess why FR is not flying domestic in Germany? Guess why they do not have a legal adress here and other EU countries?



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineSAS A340 From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 100, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 6609 times:

Another emergency landing right now with Ryanair! Flight FR 9086 From Alicante to gothenburg had to land in Billund Denmark......


It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 101, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6552 times:

Must have been really urgent considering the short distance BLL-GOT


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 102, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6546 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 101):
Must have been really urgent considering the short distance BLL-GOT

Yes, so probably urgent medical diversion.

edit: a Swedish tabloid, the same one which made up the story about the Rijeka family, is reporting a technical problem. Which is possible when you have over 1500 flights per day.

[Edited 2012-09-22 03:24:22]

User currently offlineCamiloA380 From Sweden, joined Feb 2008, 486 posts, RR: 25
Reply 103, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 6538 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 102):
Yes, so probably urgent medical diversion.



Sorry, it's a technical issue. That's what the pax have been told.



Flying4Ever!
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 6449 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 102):
the same one which made up the story about the Rijeka family

Any proof of that?


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 784 posts, RR: 0
Reply 105, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 6274 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 82):
Pax could btw easily have taken a direct bus or train to Zagreb and book any other carrier they wanedt. Ofcourse its expensive. Compared to a Ryanair ticket everything is expensive.  

You do know how long it takes to get to Zagreb from Rijeka, right? (It takes around 4.5 hours by train.) Let alone how long it takes to get to ZAG from the train station? (Up to another hour, depending on traffic, including a short tram ride to the bus station to catch the Croatia Airlines bus.)

People should not have to bend over as much as you say they should if they're so desperate to get to their final destination, yet you're willing to let them exert so much effort on something Ryanair could have avoided and should be responsible for in line with its legal obligations? That's outright callousness, not charity!


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 106, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 6250 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 105):
People should not have to bend over as much as you say they should if they're so desperate to get to their final destination, yet you're willing to let them exert so much effort on something Ryanair could have avoided and should be responsible for in line with its legal obligations? That's outright callousness, not charity!

Im sure if Ryanair had a menu where you could choose and pay for a delay or cancellation insurance like Wizzair has that 99,9 percent of pax are not willing to pay for it. They know it is a minimal risk and take the chance. I always have back up options if using FR for connecting flights for example.

And if Ryanair changes policy tickets will become more expensive, and that is something pax who would only afford to fly FR dont want.

So, my solution is: Let Ryanair also introduce the voluntary delay and cancellation protection option to buy. I would not need it and am not willing to pay for it. I know how to find my way home from where ever I am, that is also what makes leisure travel so cool.


User currently offlineju068 From Serbia, joined Aug 2009, 2579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 107, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days ago) and read 6108 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 106):
I know how to find my way home from where ever I am, that is also what makes leisure travel so cool.

Are you a parent? Do you really think parents with small children want to go through all that fuss just because their flight is cancelled?


User currently offlinekl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 108, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days ago) and read 6101 times:

Quoting ju068 (Reply 107):
Are you a parent? Do you really think parents with small children want to go through all that fuss just because their flight is cancelled?

No, but if I had kids I wouldnt book Ryanair, or any airline for that matter. Every trip or holiday needs to be prepared, and in this case I hate to say it again, you buy cheap, you get cheap. A family with kids on holiday should have booked via a travelagency in my opinion, for the well being and security of the kids.

At Rijeka they were on their own anyway to arrange transport to their hotel, which was also seperately booked I assume, so triple risk. Adults can handle that, not so good with little kids though.

[Edited 2012-09-22 13:53:26]

User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 109, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days ago) and read 6086 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 108):
A family with kids on holiday should have booked via a travelagency in my opinion, for the well being and security of the kids.

If every family with kids decided to buy through a travel agent and avoid FR, I'm afraid FR would be in serious trouble.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineshufflemoomin From Denmark, joined Jun 2010, 478 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (1 year 11 months 4 days ago) and read 6048 times:

This guy will just defend Ryanair regardless, won't he? I'd honestly love to know what his attached is to lead to such fanyboyism. He MUST work for them or be connected in some way. Why else would someone be so defensive of something as silly as a company? They screwed over customers and he just won't accept it.

User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6421 posts, RR: 54
Reply 111, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting kl911 (Reply 102):
...a Swedish tabloid, the same one which made up the story about the Rijeka family...

Those who believe in the statement above, they should try to google something like "konsumentverket ryanair rijeka".

Blaming the result on "a Swedish tabloid" would certainly be something like the understatement of the year. This incident is "all over Sweden".

"Konsumentverket" is the national Swedish consumer protection agency. There is little doubt that Konsumentverket will be rather keen on monitoring the speediness of the Ryanair compensations following this incident. It won't fade away overnight.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineOB1504 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 3327 posts, RR: 9
Reply 112, posted (1 year 11 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5786 times:

Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 110):
This guy will just defend Ryanair regardless, won't he? I'd honestly love to know what his attached is to lead to such fanyboyism. He MUST work for them or be connected in some way. Why else would someone be so defensive of something as silly as a company? They screwed over customers and he just won't accept it.

How did they screw over customers? What you seem to be failing to understand is that they did exactly what they were obligated to do by both their own terms and conditions and EU regulations.

As an airline CSA, I once had a flight from BOG arrive two hours late due to ATC delays (I believe controllers in Colombia were engaged in some kind of labor action). As a result, 45 passengers missed their connecting flight to PBG. The airline did not fly to PBG on a daily basis, so the earliest I could get some of these customers to their destinations would be four days later, and because it was an ATC delay, the airline was not obligated to provide meals and/or accommodation in the meantime, only a seat on the next available flight. I did offer refunds, but $100 isn't going to do much for someone who's trying to fly FLL-PBG at the last minute and the only other airline that serves the route is charging walk-up fares of $300 each.

Which airline is irrelevant, because the same could've happened on the majority of airlines around the world and the outcome would've been exactly the same. This sucked for everybody involved. Unfortunately, that's just how life is sometimes.

Edit: The airline I am referring to in this story offers customers the option to buy travel insurance at booking. In fact, the insurance is checked by default. Not one of those 45 people had travel insurance. They chose to save a measly $14 at booking and this is what happened. People will go for the absolute lowest fare they think they can get, then complain when they realize what it actually bought them.

[Edited 2012-09-22 22:27:18]

User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6591 posts, RR: 9
Reply 113, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 5424 times:

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 112):
How did they screw over customers? What you seem to be failing to understand is that they did exactly what they were obligated to do by both their own terms and conditions and EU regulations.

No, they did nothing. Just sent an email that people couldn't actually receive.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 114, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 113):
No, they did nothing. Just sent an email that people couldn't actually receive.

Doesn't everyone have one of those smartphone thingies that actually lets you access the Internet and emails from anywhere?

And if the people didn't know to check their emails, then that's their own damn fault, not Ryanairs: http://www.ryanair.com/en/questions/...-schedule-changes-or-cancellations

Quote:
Ryanair will notify you of any changes to your flights by sending an e-mail to the e-mail address that you provided at the time of booking. To update your e-mail address please contact your local reservations centre.
Quoting shufflemoomin (Reply 110):
This guy will just defend Ryanair regardless, won't he? I'd honestly love to know what his attached is to lead to such fanyboyism. He MUST work for them or be connected in some way. Why else would someone be so defensive of something as silly as a company? They screwed over customers and he just won't accept it.

Since when is arguing on behalf of a company that didn't do anything legally wrong "fanboyism"?

The real issue (as with all similar consumer related issues) is that people do not know their rights and also the scope and extent of such rights. Bit silly to expect a Ferrari when purchasing a Fiat.

[Edited 2012-09-24 05:37:31]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 115, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 114):

And if the people didn't know to check their emails, then that's their own damn fault, not Ryanairs:

Unless you have a flat fee that includes Croatia, this can be a very costly exercise. Now, we talk about FR passengers, not LH business class pax. It was mentioned alraedy that Rijeka airport has no internet access

Normally, a carrier has an office or a handling agent who undertakes that tasks It is the carriers duty to bring the message to the passengers, not vv.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5166 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 115):
Unless you have a flat fee that includes Croatia, this can be a very costly exercise. Now, we talk about FR passengers, not LH business class pax. It was mentioned alraedy that Rijeka airport has no internet access

Paying close to 1000 euros to get home instead of paying 10-15 euros to check the email and get details from Ryanair - not a difficult choice.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 115):
Normally, a carrier has an office or a handling agent who undertakes that tasks It is the carriers duty to bring the message to the passengers, not vv.

And it's quite well known that Ryanair doesn't provide such services. Being a low cost carrier and all that. If their terms tell you they'll send an email when a flight gets cancelled, you better check your email instead of looking for someone who cares. Personal responsibility and all that.


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 117, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 5094 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 116):
And it's quite well known that Ryanair doesn't provide such services. Being a low cost carrier and all that. If their terms tell you they'll send an email when a flight gets cancelled, you better check your email instead of looking for someone who cares. Personal responsibility and all that.

I hope a court will provide a ruling as to if this is sufficient. Personally I think it is perfectly fine if sent with reasonable advance. With people at the airport I don't think there is enough time.


User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5080 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 117):
I hope a court will provide a ruling as to if this is sufficient. Personally I think it is perfectly fine if sent with reasonable advance. With people at the airport I don't think there is enough time.

I do agree with this. Ryanair should attempt to improve on how they notify passengers of cancellations at the airport by sending sending someone over to explain the situation and the options of the passengers. And I'm quite sure they won't do it on their own accord and without legal pressure.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 119, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5059 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 116):

And it's quite well known that Ryanair doesn't provide such services. Being a low cost carrier and all that. If their terms tell you they'll send an email when a flight gets cancelled, you better che

I have said several times that their conditions of contract are for the birds and do not hold up in court. Low cost carroier or not, a company is responsible to meet theoir contraciuonal obligations and that is, to carry a passenger to a destination and back in due time. Abandoning passengers in remote places is not covered by conditions of contract.

If FR would not send a plane to Rijeka, the least they must have made was to bus the pax to Treviso or Bergamo or another near airport. It is not the responsibility of the pax to organise their own transport or have fancy smart phones available. And if FR does not price such delays into their fare structure, it is FR's problem, not the passengers.

If LH sells the Far East for 489€ and leaves a pax behind because of overbooking, the compenstion is € 600,00,



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 120, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5030 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 119):
I have said several times that their conditions of contract are for the birds and do not hold up in court. Low cost carroier or not, a company is responsible to meet theoir contraciuonal obligations and that is, to carry a passenger to a destination and back in due time. Abandoning passengers in remote places is not covered by conditions of contract.

AFAIK, whenever really challenged in court, even in labour law matters, they lost so far. Their system works through intimidation and hoping that most passengers / employees would dare to challenge them.


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 121, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 114):
Doesn't everyone have one of those smartphone thingies that actually lets you access the Internet and emails from anywhere?

No.

Filler

Filler


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 122, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5012 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 120):
AFAIK, whenever really challenged in court, even in labour law matters, they lost so far. Their system works through intimidation and hoping that most passengers / employees would dare to challenge them.

Not only that, they have no real offices except in Ireland. Any private person that spent even € 1000,00 to get back home would have to put up twice that much to sue them in Dublin.

It's clearöly something consumer protection agencies should take up, but then again it depends on law in Ireland which may be on their side.


.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 123, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 4947 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 114):
Doesn't everyone have one of those smartphone thingies that actually lets you access the Internet and emails from anywhere?

Not everybody. and those who have one, know that they are ridiculously expensive to use while in roaming.

Quoting smws (Reply 116):
Paying close to 1000 euros to get home instead of paying 10-15 euros to check the email and get details from Ryanair - not a difficult choice.

Wait. I thought FR would reimburse those €1000. So then, yes, the choice is easy... Plus, they had no way to know that FR had sent them an email without checking, and paying those €15...



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 124, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4826 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 119):
theoir contraciuonal obligations and that is, to carry a passenger to a destination and back in due time

In you opinion, how is due time defined?


User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13985 posts, RR: 62
Reply 125, posted (1 year 11 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 4770 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 122):
It's clearöly something consumer protection agencies should take up, but then again it depends on law in Ireland which may be on their side.

Not really. O´leary´s interpretation of Irish labour law does mostly not agree with the interpretation of the Irish labour court.
As I said before, AFAIK they lost all lawsuits so far. I´m sure that concerning passenger rights the view is similar, but I think many people rather swallow a loss than to bother to sue FR in an Irish court, both passengers as well as employees.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 126, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 4624 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 124):
In you opinion, how is due time defined?

It is not important how I define it. I would be generous and say within 24 hours, but, without checking, the law says that IIRC, depending on the travel distance, 4 to 6 hours qualify already for compensation.

Even 40 years ago, on frequent trips between Scotland and Germany, BEA paid for transport and Hotel when LHR was fogged in and the connection to DUS or HAM was missed. Even when the connecting carrier was LH.

FR does nothing, not even telling pax which airport to go to.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 127, posted (1 year 11 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 126):
I would be generous and say within 24 hours, but, without checking, the law says that IIRC, depending on the travel distance, 4 to 6 hours qualify already for compensation.

More than 24 hour delays are common. Granted it is typically long haul. 4 - 6 hours is compensation time in EU but there is no additional compensation, outside food and accommodation, after that time is reached.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 126):
Even 40 years ago, on frequent trips between Scotland and Germany, BEA paid for transport and Hotel when LHR was fogged in and the connection to DUS or HAM was missed. Even when the connecting carrier was LH.

A lot of things have change in 40 years. I have not been flying 40 years but I remember no charges for bags and meals being included.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 126):
FR does nothing, not even telling pax which airport to go to.

Well, they essentially said - call us. I don't think there is a problem in requesting them to contact a call center. However, as it stands today I don't think it is reasonable to provide that information only by email when passengers are already at the airport. I also think they would be required to provide phones at the airport.

I also think that if they send an email they should provide a solution in that email so the passenger only need to call in if it isn't working for them.


User currently offlinePoianaMarco From Denmark, joined Jan 2012, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (1 year 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 4272 times:

Another random fail from FR. You are buying a ticket from FR with couple of euros, and you ecxept that they would give you accomodation, food OR reedem you losses? Really, sometimes humankind is just pure sheep headed.   


The secret behind a good working day is happy guests and to know that you have been giving 110% and not just 100 of seri
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9276 posts, RR: 29
Reply 129, posted (1 year 11 months 7 hours ago) and read 4245 times:

"as lomg as it takes

Quoting PoianaMarco (Reply 128):
You are buying a ticket from FR with couple of euros, and you ecxept that they would give you accomodation, food OR reedem you losses? Really, sometimes humankind is just pure sheep headed.

Look at it this way, all what you mention is what the law requires. If a company does not price that in, now, who's the sheep then?

One could say, with tongue-in-cheek, the this pricing in takes place with 60€ boarding passes.

But in reality it is a business method and calculation of a company that can legally be taken into account in one country only, although they operate in many European countries.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 130, posted (1 year 11 months 5 hours ago) and read 4170 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 97):
Sorry, I don't understand your English here, deep breath and try again!

I'm not surprised you don't understand English, considering your spelling - these are big words; use a dictionary and figure it out.

It should be pretty humiliating that a non-native Engilsh speaker knows the language better than a native one, so much so that said native speaker shouldn't call attention to it, but there you go.

So take a deep breath and a dictionary and try again.

And yes, FR is subsidised by the governments and would die a quick death without said subisidy. It's a pretty disgusting scam operation that makes its fortune by sucking the teat of the taxpayer.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 131, posted (1 year 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 130):
And yes, FR is subsidised by the governments and would die a quick death without said subisidy. It's a pretty disgusting scam operation that makes its fortune by sucking the teat of the taxpayer.

Haha, funny man. May I ask you what your problem is, you have some really weird answers on this site I noticed. I seems to me that you dont really understand the free market and how it works?

1st. this subsidie is given to every airline that want to start a certain route and meet certain criteria. Ryanair didnt invent them, they are offered to Ryanair, as they are offered to BA at BWI and countless other airlines like your loved Iberia.

2nd. How do you feel about all the tax money that has been pumped into Iberia and countless other companies in Spain, just to keep them alive?

Quoting Asturias (Reply 130):
And yes, FR is subsidised by the governments and would die a quick death without said subisidy. It's a pretty disgusting scam operation that makes its fortune by sucking the teat of the taxpayer.

And Iberia would have been dead ages ago without that tax money. Funny thing is, Iberia had to beg for it, Ryanair gets the money offered..


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 132, posted (1 year 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 4136 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 131):
Haha, funny man. May I ask you what your problem is, you have some really weird answers on this site I noticed. I seems to me that you dont really understand the free market and how it works?

Yeah, they're 'weird' because I don't agree with you. Imagine that.

Weird.

Also, free market does not include tax-payer leeches like FR. That's a free tip for you.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 131):
And Iberia would have been dead ages ago without that tax money. Funny thing is, Iberia had to beg for it, Ryanair gets the money offered..

What nonsense, you got anything else than your own words to back that up?



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 133, posted (1 year 11 months 4 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 132):
Also, free market does not include tax-payer leeches like FR. That's a free tip for you.

O no? Ryanair is free to accept anything they get offered, and dont forget the tax payers win at the end since most of those deals give the local community upto 10x their invest back in Tourist spending, jobs etc. See for info the Thread about BA receiving 17 million from BWI which returned 107 million in jobs and spending by passengers.

I just dont see why you are so negative to every airline besides Iberia , who is not known for customer service, innovation, ontime performance etc etc.

Without Ryanair a lot of jobs would be lost in Spain, not only with them but also with hotels, hostels, taxi companies, restaurants etc.


User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 134, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 133):
Ryanair is free to accept anything they get offered, and dont forget the tax payers win at the end since most of those deals give the local community upto 10x their invest back in Tourist spending, jobs etc.

Blah blah blah, that's not free market. That's surviving because of governent subsidies. That's being a parasite.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 133):
Without Ryanair a lot of jobs would be lost in Spain, not only with them but also with hotels, hostels, taxi companies, restaurants etc.

Speaking of weird posts, yours is quite out there.

In a free market, if FR can't provide service that is demanded, then someone else will step in.

In no way, shape or form would it affect Spain if FR would disappear tomorrow - first of all FR isn't cheap, it's a scam - and secon of all with that parasite out of the picture, other companies would be happy to step in and make some honest money.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 135, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3820 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 134):
In no way, shape or form would it affect Spain if FR would disappear tomorrow - first of all FR isn't cheap, it's a scam - and secon of all with that parasite out of the picture, other companies would be happy to step in and make some honest money.

I think you have no idea how the economy works. The laissez-faire world you seem to think exists or should exist doesn't work. Period.

Also, just a quick Google search gave me this link.
http://help.iberia.com/what-is-the-residency-subsidy/

So the Spanish government pays 50% of pax ticket prices in certain situations.

We can also recall the 1992 1 billion dollar subsidy for expanding to South America and the 711 million dollars granted for restructuring.

And still, air travel is a form of public transport. It's heavily subsidized and that's logical. What some call wasting taxpayer money is a chance to bring tourists to the country, improve commuting between workplaces, etc.

Quoting KL911 (Reply 133):
Without Ryanair a lot of jobs would be lost in Spain, not only with them but also with hotels, hostels, taxi companies, restaurants etc.

Incredibly true. Tourism generated 61 billion euros for Spain in 2010. That's a huge sum and important for Spain. If a major carrier such as Ryanair stopped flying there, a lot of tourists wouldn't go there and they'd just pick another destination. And, to not overly complicating these things, other airlines would fill the void, but in order to maintain the Ryanair prices (which are the major factor why people fly Ryanair), it would need huge investments from the airlines and also subsidies from the Spanish government.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 136, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3790 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 135):
So the Spanish government pays 50% of pax ticket prices in certain situations.

Maybe you should explain those "certain situations": people living in the Balearic or Canary islands receive a 50% discount whenever they fly to the mainland, regardless of the company they choose to fly. Same thing happens for instance in France with residents of Corsica. This is not unlike the American EAS program.

Quoting smws (Reply 135):
Tourism generated 61 billion euros for Spain in 2010. That's a huge sum and important for Spain.

How much of that was spent by tourists flying to Spain with FR? I guess that's hard to find. Easier: how much was that number before FR started flying to Spain? Or, even easier, how many more tourists visit Spain since FR started flying to Spain? I bet the answer is "not so many more."



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User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 137, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3787 times:
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Quoting Asturias (Reply 134):
first of all FR isn't cheap

Why oh why do you have to degrade your posts with lies? Where is the 'scam'? Is it cheap 100% of the time? No, nothing is, and yes it does depend on your needs. Can it be cheap on a regular basis if you are careful? YES - FACT.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2148 posts, RR: 16
Reply 138, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 136):
Or, even easier, how many more tourists visit Spain since FR started flying to Spain? I bet the answer is "not so many more."

  

We have a winner.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 137):
Why oh why do you have to degrade your posts with lies?

FR isn't cheap. There are better deals to be had with even legacies. Either way, there are other LCCs, there's nothing special about FR, except their tendency to suck taxpayer money and call it profit.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 139, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3722 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 130):
And yes, FR is subsidised by the governments and would die a quick death without said subisidy. It's a pretty disgusting scam operation that makes its fortune by sucking the teat of the taxpayer.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 132):
What nonsense, you got anything else than your own words to back that up?
Quoting Asturias (Reply 134):
Blah blah blah, that's not free market. That's surviving because of governent subsidies. That's being a parasite.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 134):
In no way, shape or form would it affect Spain if FR would disappear tomorrow - first of all FR isn't cheap, it's a scam - and secon of all with that parasite out of the picture, other companies would be happy to step in and make some honest money.
Quoting Asturias (Reply 138):
Either way, there are other LCCs, there's nothing special about FR, except their tendency to suck taxpayer money and call it profit.

This is the same drivel you spout in every thread about FR! Would you care to show us "anything else other than your own words" that FR survives only because of subsidies? I, and many others here I'm sure, would be very interested to see the evidence of this that you so blatenly know as you keep harking on about it.

In the long run, it doesn't really matter that you absolutely hate FR. Tens of millions of others don't and that has a positive effect on their profit - with or without subsidies. Not every country subsidises FR - how do you account for the success in these particular countries? Is the Spanish government (itself soon to be well subsidised by the EU taxpaper) so stupid as to pay for our cheap flights in Ireland for example?

Your entire argument is based on hatred and a denial of any kind of economic reasoning.

We await, eagerly and not before time, your evidence.



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Belgium, joined Jul 2007, 7694 posts, RR: 21
Reply 140, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3668 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Asturias (Reply 138):
FR isn't cheap. There are better deals to be had with even legacies. Either way, there are other LCCs, there's nothing special about FR, except their tendency to suck taxpayer money and call it profit.

Nope. NOWHERE snd with noone can I fly to Norway and back for thirty pounds in total, as I will next week. You find me one single carrier with a directly comparable fare, then we'll talk. Over the years I have flown oh so regularly for that sort of price, even much less on occasion. This is fact.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 141, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3574 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 139):
s the Spanish government (itself soon to be well subsidised by the EU taxpaper) so stupid as to pay for our cheap flights in Ireland for example?

First of all, it seems that you don't understand what a so-called "rescue", like the one of, say, Ireland, entails. It is not a bail out. It's just a loan, guaranteed by the EU. Its cost to European taxpayers is exactly 0.

Second of all, yes the Spanish local and regional governments do subsidize FR's operations in Spain.

Third, it has been shown for several years that FR's profit in a given year has been less than the total amount of subsidies it has received in that year. So one can indeed say that FR would not be a viable business without subsidies.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 142, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3476 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 141):
First of all, it seems that you don't understand what a so-called "rescue", like the one of, say, Ireland, entails. It is not a bail out. It's just a loan, guaranteed by the EU. Its cost to European taxpayers is exactly 0.

Second of all, yes the Spanish local and regional governments do subsidize FR's operations in Spain.

Third, it has been shown for several years that FR's profit in a given year has been less than the total amount of subsidies it has received in that year. So one can indeed say that FR would not be a viable business without subsidies.

Firstly, I understand it quite well, my point was to prove that many countries and institutions invest in an economy in the anticipation of a healthy return. This is the case of the FR subsidies. If someone can show that there is not a financial benefit derived from this investment, please show it. Only stupid people give money for nothing and I doubt the most of Europe is stupid.

Secondly, I never denied the existence of subsidies to any airline. Indeed, it has long been a practice in Europe. It is still standard in the US.

Thirdly, can you please point to a real source where it proves that FR's profit in a given year has been less than the total amount of subsidies it has received in that year. Once again, I eagerly await these statistics and not a guess from an LH executive.



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlinesmws From Estonia, joined Jun 2012, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 143, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 136):
Maybe you should explain those "certain situations": people living in the Balearic or Canary islands receive a 50% discount whenever they fly to the mainland, regardless of the company they choose to fly. Same thing happens for instance in France with residents of Corsica. This is not unlike the American EAS program.

I'm perfectly aware of that. I just threw this 50% discount there to demonstrate that airlines as such are a form of (heavily) subsidized public transport. That's all.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 141):
First of all, it seems that you don't understand what a so-called "rescue", like the one of, say, Ireland, entails. It is not a bail out. It's just a loan, guaranteed by the EU. Its cost to European taxpayers is exactly 0.

A statement like that is quite ignorant. We've already had a large amount of debts written off to help Greece. A loan would cost the taxpayers exactly 0 ONLY if the debt is repayed. Considering the current financial situation, that's extremely unlikely.

Quoting UALWN (Reply 141):
Third, it has been shown for several years that FR's profit in a given year has been less than the total amount of subsidies it has received in that year. So one can indeed say that FR would not be a viable business without subsidies.

The airline business as a whole isn't a viable business without subsidies. The difference is that with the help of the subsidies some companies (FR, for example), are able to make a profit. While others (IB), are not.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 144, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3369 times:

Quoting smws (Reply 143):
We've already had a large amount of debts written off to help Greece. A loan would cost the taxpayers exactly 0 ONLY if the debt is repayed. Considering the current financial situation, that's extremely unlikely.

Greece has indeed defaulted on its debt, hence costing money to taxpayers. Ireland and Portugal haven't. Spain hasn't even been rescued yet. How likely or unlikely it is that a possible future loan to Spain will be repayed I don't know. If you're so sure that it won't, then maybe you should bet heavily on that, and become rich (or broke).

Quoting smws (Reply 143):
The airline business as a whole isn't a viable business without subsidies.

Then maybe it shouldn't be considered a business.

Quoting smws (Reply 143):
The difference is that with the help of the subsidies some companies (FR, for example), are able to make a profit. While others (IB), are not.

Actually, in the last decade or so, IB has been profitable. And it would have been profitable without subsidies, unlike FR.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 145, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3347 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 142):
can you please point to a real source where it proves that FR's profit in a given year has been less than the total amount of subsidies it has received in that year

How about the complaint AF/KL filed against FR in 2010 in front of the European Commission? In it, AF/KL claimed (they would say "proved") that, without illegal subsidies (never mind the legal ones), FR would have lost €270M in 2008 and a whopping €829 in 2009. As far as I know, the complaint is still being investigated.

See http://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/2010...porter-plainte-contre-ryanair-.php



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 146, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 145):
How about the complaint AF/KL filed against FR in 2010 in front of the European Commission? In it, AF/KL claimed (they would say "proved") that, without illegal subsidies (never mind the legal ones), FR would have lost €270M in 2008 and a whopping €829 in 2009. As far as I know, the complaint is still being investigated.

A complaint by an airline that their competitor is doing well?? I claim that I went to Mars last year but I've no proof...



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 147, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3231 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 146):
A complaint by an airline that their competitor is doing well??

No, a complaint that they receive illegal subsidies.

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 146):
I claim that I went to Mars last year

Good for you.



AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/AB6/310/319/320/321/330/340/380
User currently offlinecaptainmeeerkat From Russia, joined Aug 2010, 386 posts, RR: 1
Reply 148, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3104 times:

Quoting UALWN (Reply 147):
No, a complaint that they receive illegal subsidies.

Ok, a complaint was made which you state is a fact. Where is your evidence that it is indeed a fact apart from a competitor airline (who is in financial trouble) stating so?



my luggage is better travelled than me!
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5127 posts, RR: 12
Reply 149, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3057 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 140):
Quoting Asturias (Reply 138):FR isn't cheap. There are better deals to be had with even legacies. Either way, there are other LCCs, there's nothing special about FR, except their tendency to suck taxpayer money and call it profit.

Nope. NOWHERE snd with noone can I fly to Norway and back for thirty pounds in total, as I will next week. You find me one single carrier with a directly comparable fare, then we'll talk. Over the years I have flown oh so regularly for that sort of price, even much less on occasion. This is fact.

Yes, Im flying from Budapest to Lanzarote again Monday, for the 3rd time in a year. Without Ryanair I would have never been able to fly there. 4 flights for 95 euro in total. If you search for destinations in a week that you are able to go somewhere you might even find one or two destinations for as low as 5 euro one way.


User currently offlineUALWN From Andorra, joined Jun 2009, 2762 posts, RR: 2
Reply 150, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2969 times:

Quoting captainmeeerkat (Reply 148):
Ok, a complaint was made which you state is a fact. Where is your evidence that it is indeed a fact apart from a competitor airline (who is in financial trouble) stating so?

No: a complaint was made that I stated as such. However, I'd imagine that the complaint has some (some) merit. Otherwise, why bother? If the illegal subsidy claimed (the word I used in my original post) by AF/KL were reduced by a half, say, it would be still more than FR's profits.



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