g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 724 posts, RR: 0 Posted (8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 27286 times:
I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT.. But this is a first good step
"Troubled carrier Air France plans to refurbish its entire fleet of long-haul Boeing 777s in a bid to respond to the competitive threat, and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines."
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 1, posted (8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 27259 times:
4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay. Since this is Europes first upgrade to "compete" with Gulf airlines I can't wait to see what French Elegance at a Gulf airline level looks like. Good luck to AF.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 2, posted (8 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 27246 times:
Quoting g500 (Thread starter): "Troubled carrier Air France plans to refurbish its entire fleet of long-haul Boeing 777s in a bid to respond to the competitive threat, and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines."
They're chasing after the wrong thing, but good luck.
Stitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 26719 posts, RR: 83 Reply 3, posted (8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 26766 times:
For a start, AF can go back to the original tan and red color scheme of La Première as I am not a fan of the new grey scheme.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1): 4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay.
AF does have a four-class configuration on some of their 777-200ERs and 777-300ERs and their new A380-800s are being delivered with four classes (with the earlier frames being retrofitted to that configuration).
BasilFawlty From Netherlands, joined Jun 2009, 1254 posts, RR: 1 Reply 4, posted (8 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 26712 times:
Quoting g500 (Thread starter): I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT..
And unless they do something about what is described above, every other attempt is a nice try but eventually pointless in my opinion.
'Every year donkeys and mules kill more people than plane crashes'
rwsea From Netherlands, joined Jan 2005, 3016 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26432 times:
Maybe they'll finally drop the terrible 3x4x3 layout in economy, although I doubt it given that Emirates uses the same configuration. On the other hand, maybe they could improve the legroom to be competitive with Emirates.
Business class is another matter - terrible and outdated seats (same situation on KL). Hopefully this is a focus area for both airlines.
azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3555 posts, RR: 30 Reply 7, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26370 times:
I've flown AF many times and it's clear their problems are NOT their cabins or service. Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency. Oh and I'm so happy I finally got to recently fly in a 3x4x3 cabin to see what all the hype was about. As I suspected, it's just that! I found the 3x4x3 configuration just as comfortable. The seats didn't seem any more narrow, the pitch was generous and since I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.
If AF thinks they'll see ROI with this refurbishing initiative, wonderful. But from the customer perspective, IMO, it's a waste of money.
kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26343 times:
Quoting BasilFawlty (Reply 4): And unless they do something about what is described above, every other attempt is a nice try but eventually pointless in my opinion.
We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
lucky777 From United States of America, joined Oct 2008, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26284 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8): We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
Such a short-sighted comment to make with nothing to back up the claim that unions-at-large "damage companies and travellers"...care to put some meat on that hollow statement next time?
g500 From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 724 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26169 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8): We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
The Lufthansa flight attendant strike cost the company several million dollars.... The Gulf carriers don't have to worry about something like that. HUGE advantage
falkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26125 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8): We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
Totally agree, unions should be restricted when they damage the company. Theoretically, unions serve to protect the workers from their patron in a David v. Goliath kind of struggle. However, reality shows unions would rather take a company down into bankruptcy than give into some benefits (and this is not only for airlines). Not trying to get into a union vs patron discussion here (since I think unions tend to bite the hand that feeds but patrons also tend to exploit their workers), but why won´t they see that if the company as a whole gets better, their own conditions will start to improve but only keep on trying to get major benefits and drive the company down...
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 12, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26099 times:
Quoting g500 (Reply 10): The Lufthansa flight attendant strike cost the company several million dollars.... The Gulf carriers don't have to worry about something like that. HUGE advantage
Roseflyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 8746 posts, RR: 52 Reply 13, posted (8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 26082 times:
AF has multiple problems, but its hard product is one of them. In my opinion AF and LH made a mistake by launching the A380 with angled flat seats. The newest generation of business class seats can be fully flat and fit the same number of seats as a traditional 60'' pitch 2x2x2 cabin. They have to get creative with use of space and sometimes have drawbacks of being slightly narrower or not forward facing, but the market is voting that passengers like herringbone, thompson, reverse direction, etc seats if they go flat.
Asian and Middle Eastern carriers have brought better hard products, and the US airlines are following. Delta is going to 100% flat business class. United is almost there. American is a disaster, but has committed to upgrading to flat business. BA has been there for a decade, but Lufthansa is finally starting to go flat. AF is falling behind.
Air France is being outmatched on virtually every route they fly. All their competitors have upped the hard product in business class. AF also doesn't have a particularly stunning F product either. Personally I don't think they should spend their money on Y because anything to keep price down is good in Y and AF already has the industry essential of PTVs.
However they also need to improve the entire company. Better maintenance, better schedule reliability, better airport infrastructure, appropriate staffing levels, cabin cleanliness, etc are all factors that matter. You can have the best hard product but that won't make you money. Just look at Air India's beautiful cabins yet it is still a disaster financially.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
falkerker From Seychelles, joined Apr 2012, 150 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 25840 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 15): In my opinion AF and LH made a mistake by launching the A380 with angled flat seats.
Doesn't KE also have angled flat seats on the A388 on J as well? I think AF is getting behind on hard product, but improving it won´t make them able to compete with gulf and asian carriers. Their problems are far from being "just" a hard product issue.
although I agree, and do not support unions in any fashion, its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.
okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 16, posted (8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 25648 times:
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 17): its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 24907 times:
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
However they also need to improve the entire company. Better maintenance, better schedule reliability, better airport infrastructure, appropriate staffing levels, cabin cleanliness, etc are all factors that matter. You can have the best hard product but that won't make you money. Just look at Air India's beautiful cabins yet it is still a disaster financially.
For an AF employee it's always interesting (hard sometimes) to read what type of complaints customers make about the product. Even though it doesn't make me really happy as you may imagine, I must admit that every thing you pointed out in your post is correct, sadly.
Just a small correction, CDG and ORY airports infrastructure are designed and managed by ADP (state owned), a different (and monopoly) company than AF. Unfortunately, AF cannot really put the pressure on ADP to get an airport 100% designed to match their needs...
What for you, and other people reading this thread obviously, is the biggest point to improve about Air France?
(and please don't say "France" )
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
LondonCity From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2008, 1202 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 24898 times:
Quoting rwsea (Reply 6): Business class is another matter - terrible and outdated seats (same situation on KL). Hopefully this is a focus area for both airlines.
But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats. So it meant AF had to follow otherwise passengers would question why one partner had the better product.
FlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 1965 posts, RR: 3 Reply 20, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 24441 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1): 4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay. Since this is Europes first upgrade to "compete" with Gulf airlines I can't wait to see what French Elegance at a Gulf airline level looks like. Good luck to AF.
We might not be the most pro-European nation, but last time I checked the UK was in Europe! BA introduced a four class layout a few years back now, and I would say can compete with the Gulf carriers on service. The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.
Interesting move by AF, and it will be interesting to see what its aircraft look like after. I suspect 3-4-3 will stay in the 777s, but perhaps with a bit better seat pitch.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10687 posts, RR: 100 Reply 21, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 24402 times:
I like some dismiss the Euro-carrier issues without going into why some customers prefer the mid-East airlines. IMHO, the #1 item AF must fix is the perceived treatment of non-European decent passengers.
It isn't just the seats, but those could change. Customers want the IFE, drinks, and portions served with a smile. It is also due to EK being a 'numbers run company' a la Starbucks. Read their annual reports. EK is constantly trying to cut costs. EK monitors their sales and cut flights earlier than most airlines during the 'Arab spring.' Now they are returning. Numbers run... Not by tradition or even their own culture.
As already noted, AF must pressure the airports to provide a better connecting experience. No excuses. It must be improved. Since France is in 'financial pressure,' I'm sure the government could help AF fix the issue.
Quoting airproxx (Reply 18): What for you, and other people reading this thread obviously, is the biggest point to improve about Air France?
Quoting g500 (Thread starter): and perceived higher quality service, of Gulf and Asian airlines.
IMHO the service on AF is fine for French speakers. What needs to be improved is service to Asian (including Indian) customers. While some are 'difficult,' they are the customer. Somehow LH and EK do a better job of bringing them in.
Quoting rwsea (Reply 6): Maybe they'll finally drop the terrible 3x4x3 layout in economy
Cost is a major AF issue. Crew costs are part of it. Part of it is delivering what customers want to pay for and no more (at least no more that has an expense).
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7): Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency.
It is also customer perception. AF must become a 'numbers run company' to compete.
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7): I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.
You and I are different... I walk around. However, I'm not willing to pay for a wider isle, so no complaints here.
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8): We can only hope Unions will be finally banned
Would you really want to live in a world were unions were forbidden? Not I. Oh, I'm FAR from pro-union; in many cases they do some stupid self-destructive negotiations (see AA pilots the last few days). But I support their rights to form a union and strike. I just want a right to dissolve a union too... but that is a different topic.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 19): But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats.
Now is AF being wise and going with thinner lie flat seats a la EK/LH (well, LH is close to lie flat...)? AF is competing in markets where the cost of J is an issue. They must stay competitive with comfort while increasing the seating density. That means flat seats, but many in a row. The reality is that CDG is not the top premium O&D market; thus they must compete with 'more discounted business class.'
I'm glad to see AF is changing. Will they change enough?
I might be on of the few who doesn't find much flaw with AF.
My only complaint is to change the rules and benefits of Flying Blue back to the days of Frequence Plus. In the years past, I was flying much with AF before alliances arrived so I was usually Frequence Plus Bleu/Rouge flying mainly between IAD, JFK, EWR, LAX, LHR, MUC, NTE, CFR to Paris. And now, I am Medallion at DL. I am discovering more and more flights with DL as I feel my loyalty is appreciated. I value loyalty more over free champagne. I don't care if I have to purchase a flute of champagne onboard - really, I do not. In 2012, a glass can cost you USD15+ for example in most restaurants here in Los Angeles. So, buy on board is not an issue for me, it's simply the value of Frequent Flyer Programs.
At the end of the day, I'm not looking for freebies as I am not your typical self-entitled American. In fact, I apologize to gate agents and ticket agents on their behalf because it's so embarrassing by association. I feel terrible for the Ground Staff, btw. It just sucks to have earning schemes and benefits taken away or reduced over the years. (Since 1992). I would also like to mention I have never supported and have never stepped onboard any low-cost carrier. I refuse. I know what they've done to you at AF and to other carriers. In my opinion, I feel the people that really complain on these forums, are the ones that fly (support) Ryanair, Jetblue, Tiger, JetStar, etc.
On the positive side, I love CDG (the architecture, especially), the Christian Lacroix Uniforms are stunning, the planes are decorated so simple, yet elegant, catering is perfection, wine list is delicious, Clarins products (from the toiletries kit) does wonders for my skin (and now only use Clarins even at home), and the French Service is wonderfully unique. Oh, and I'm a sucker for foie gras!!!!!!!! Yum-O!!!!!!
Just change the Flying Blue back to the days of Frequence Plus, and I will be happier. I'm just asking for something back that was taken away from me. I don't want anything for free, I just want fairness.
When you've had First Class, it's hard to take Economy. =]
And then change the "Making The Sky The Best Place on Earth" back to "Winning the Hearts of the World." Those were really the good old days, weren't they?
I wish you much prosperity and happiness with Air France. I will always love AF forever in my heart.
mercure1 From French Polynesia, joined Jul 2008, 604 posts, RR: 2 Reply 23, posted (8 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 24076 times:
Yes good to see AF seek to update product.
Even with recent year changes the product is lacking. And not just in the air, but AF needs to improve on the ground. Whether is more hotel concierge style check-in for premium cleintele, to improved lounges and to offer things like free chauffaur car at destinations.
Funny part is AF has for many years complained about the likes to EK and the danger they create in the market for it, but sadly AF has not done much except watch complain.
In the mean time all these airlines from the Gulf and Asia have continued to improve product and and market them very effectively.
I have collogues in France that besides some intra-Europe travel have not been on an AF flight for years. Each time they travel for business or pleasure they have a wide variety of world class products to choose from at some very good prices.
Oh and I hope there is some product alignment with KLM also. In the past I have been very disappointed with KL, and its a bizarre situation when AF sales office tries to sell you single global service but KL and AF have different products.
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 23782 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21): As already noted, AF must pressure the airports to provide a better connecting experience. No excuses. It must be improved. Since France is in 'financial pressure,' I'm sure the government could help AF fix the issue.
I do share your opinion. I blame everyday the poor CDG and ORY organization, and service to customers. CDG is just a giant mess. I wish AF could put some pressure on anybody that could help bringing CDG and ORY to the level of DXB or similar. But we're in France, paradox country, and close relationships between govt officials, and company such as ADP CEOs make things go .. slow.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21): IMHO the service on AF is fine for French speakers. What needs to be improved is service to Asian (including Indian) customers. While some are 'difficult,' they are the customer. Somehow LH and EK do a better job of bringing them in.
Well, to be honest, service to french customers is not always as fine as it seems too! It's been said already that AF F/A are not always handful, nice, smiley, even not always polite. People inside the airline don't want to face the truth, but I think AF service is perceived badly by customers, mainly because of doubtful behavior by F/A. Even ground staff can be rude. Again, I do share your vision. What can you say about AF staff in general?
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21): It is also customer perception. AF must become a 'numbers run company' to compete.
AF is in a bad financial shape, but investments are made to try to upgrade the level of service. I think aircraft cabins refurbishment is a nice move, but I agree, won't be enough though.
Efforts are made by AF employees (at least flying staff) to stick with the level of competition set by LH or BA (I don't even talk about EK which seems out of reach for the time). But I think there's a service culture we have to get in France, and at AF to reach the top again. We can put all the best in a cabin layout, if passengers have a bad experience because of a horrible F/A, it will be a failure. We know that pax are gained with a lot of efforts, and lost due to small details...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
First, thank you very much for taking your time to share what you feel goes wrong with my airline.
You're not the only one complaining about changes in Frequence Plus / Flying Blue programs. My feel is that we lose a lot of frequent and long time customers due to this poor decision.
This point has even been discussed many many times with the airline direction, but unfortunately nothing has changed until today.
Loyalty is still something much appreciated by AF, but strangely, the airline strategy has been to reduce a lot of benefits, even those accumulated during years by a lot of customers. This has been a really bad move IMO. This even got worse when it became part of the policy of cutting costs of any sorts, to preserve cash flow, 2 or 3 years ago.
Honestly, seeing AF investing in new cabins, makes me feel that my airline is starting to, simply turn again towards customers, instead of trying to fix internal endless issues.
So I do hope that in a few times, we'll se a frequent flyer program evolution, leading to a better rewarded loyalty for our frequent customers.
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 22): I wish you much prosperity and happiness with Air France. I will always love AF forever in my heart.
Until then...
Bon Voyage!
Thank you very much for your words, I do appreciate that.
I hope we'll know how to make the efforts required to have people like you flying with us again and for a long time!
On a side note, I'm a great fan of USA in general, and California in particular, a very special place for me
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 22): Oh, and I'm a sucker for foie gras!!!!!!!! Yum-O!!!!!!
I hope you won't get any trouble writing these lines with CA authorities, they seem to be rough with foie-gras lovers
Cheers, and thanks again!
Dave
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10687 posts, RR: 100 Reply 26, posted (8 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 23558 times:
Quoting airproxx (Reply 24): What can you say about AF staff in general?
In general an excellent post. I haven't flow AF in... forever. So I go off banter at parties.
In general, the experience of J class passengers who speak some French has been excellent feedback. But all of those individuals are blonde or light brown hair with pale skin. I think that unfortunately makes a difference.
My Indian friends who have flown J on AF have *not* been happy with the experience. In general they have gone over to LH or EK.
Look, I'm in Los Angeles. Not exactly a top AF market. Well, except for PPT-LAX-CDG. I just noticed where the people I know are happy and where they are not.
In general, since people are flying AF to either PPT or CDG from here... there experience is good for those who look 'of European decent' and passengers to PPT have been happy (of all decent). Connecting through CDG doesn't make people happy unless they stay in Paris for 3+ days.
Funny... I never hear about 'dirty planes.' Then again, these people do not talk the hard product (seats) either... They are just not that interested.
Note: My sample flying AF is older. Those that are 'critical of the IFE experience' haven't been flying them. So I have no input there. I also have relatively little input for Y passengers to CDG. For whatever reasons, everyone I know who goes to Europe 'in the back of the plane' flies other airlines. That could just be a cost issue...
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 23045 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26): In general an excellent post. I haven't flow AF in... forever. So I go off banter at parties.
Haha, no problem, I though you were a frequent AF customer, but anyway, experience about AF product is good to hear, whatever it comes from you or a friend...
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26): My Indian friends who have flown J on AF have *not* been happy with the experience. In general they have gone over to LH or EK.
And do you know why? I've heard that before indeed. But I'm not sure to clearly understand what Indian customers have to blame AF for....
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 28, posted (8 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 22034 times:
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7): I found the 3x4x3 configuration just as comfortable. The seats didn't seem any more narrow, the pitch was generous and since I didn't spend much time on the 11 hour flight playing in the aisles, the more narrow aisle was no big deal.
The seats are narrower, as are the armrests and the gap between the seats. You can't generate enough space to squeeze in one more seat by just reducing the aisle width. Get off a 10-abreast 777 and board a 9-abreast 777 and you will notice the difference.
First, thank you for your response! Your message validates how I've always felt, that the people at AF really do care!!! So, again thank you!!! Or, rather, mille merci a vous!!!!!
If you want, you are more than welcome to forward my message to the appropriate department at AF. I've given up on the facebook/twitter/customer care channels because I am only one voice. However, today, I feel my voice has been heard, and for this I will always defend AF concerning customer contact staff (Flight Attendants, Ground Staff, Reservations Agents, etc.) Really, thank you!
Side note (I am of Asian/Mixed Race descent) - I never have felt any discrimination. I speak some French because I've been educated and raised by wonderful parents to always respect and be a proper guest when entering foreign lands and their respective properties (e.g. Inside Air France aircraft and when flying into and through CDG, you should always take effort to learn, speak, and practice French with proper accent.) I am a guest in your country, France, so I prefer to not make myself of a nuisance or inconvenience.
You have never lost me as a customer. Throughout the two decades of flying with AF, I have thoroughly enjoyed my experience. Thanks to DL Skymiles and Skyteam, I prefer AF and will continue to fly with you when the option is there.
Moreover, I only fly for pleasure - usually up to and sometimes a little beyond 50,000 miles per year on my own dime. It should tell you AF is worth every dime, every euro, every yen, whatever I have. Yes, it would be nice to travel on the expense of others, but air travel makes me enjoy and appreciate the wonderful service DL and AF offer.
This was such wonderful news when I heard of the revamp today, however, I am a simple guy and would be happy with the L'espace 127 seat. I LOVE THAT SEAT!!!! It's like when you fall in love with someone and you miss that person if only a week, a day, or a moment is spent without them. =]
Thank you for your kind words and when future travel plans take you to LAX, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll be happy to extend our California Hospitality to you with a welcome drink - champagne, maybe? Or a delicious Chardonnay I recently discovered here that is amazing! And I usually detest chardonnay!
And everybody knows us Angelenos are the best to party with!!!!! lol!!!!!! (I wonder if I'll get flamed for this on this forum!!!!!) hahahahaha!
I love foie gras and have some delicious confections I bring back from time-to-time from Paris. Oh, and I love Fauchon!!!!! OMG! You are so lucky! But I do shop at a place here in Los Angeles that carries Fauchon products!!!! So, it's a start!
Je vous souhaitez un tres bonne journee!!!!! (I hope my spelling is correct)
AF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 30, posted (8 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 17437 times:
I think cabin refurbishment is a very wise move from AF, many people around me are praising the "emerging" airlines' hard products (GA, TK, 9W, JJ and the likes).
Indeed hard product does not make a top notch airline by itself, but AF can count on numerous other qualities: Catering, Personalized/"human" service (versus often too standardized / automated Asian service), network..
The CDG hub has also greatly improved in the last year with the 2E/2F and now S4 satelitte, as well as the IFE with the introduction of the Panasonic and Thales IFE (A380)
In terms of staff performance, it is true AF is suffering a lack of consistency from a flight to another. I have experienced great service and behaviours on many flights, but also unprofessional attitude on others. It is unfortunatly the case in many Western Airlines, and is a reflection of the current society where more people are careless and less professional/respectful towards customers (you can also experience that in many department stores in Europe where shop keepers would talk about their personnal matters instead of providing assistance to you..).
However, I find AF's J/F service usually very good, and elegant.
As for the Flying Blue program, it is true it takes a while before accumulating enough miles to book a reward flight (especially compared to CX). But the new policy which automatically transfer your level miles (above your current status) to the next year is also a good move
Good luck to AF, and I can't wait to see their new cabins
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3075 posts, RR: 10 Reply 32, posted (8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 16075 times:
I hate to say this but a lot of it is going to come down to costs.
I welcome move, as obviously cabin hard ware is a major competitive factor (see the likes of
AR who aren't even close to the competition and look at the fares charged) but the reality is
this.
EK and friends, have CASM something like 30% below that of LH/AF etc. Where BA will always have
the corporate HQ types wanting direct flights from LHR, AF and LH must have a greater degree of connecting
PAX for their model to work. So that means EK is largely competitive in terms of travel time. So of course they
then have price competitiveness. At whatever level AF charge, EK can charge the same and spend significantly
more pampering their customers. Of course, loyalty comes into it but so does price... and 30% lower costs in an industry only known for about a 5% profit margin gives EK too much room to play with. I think its good that they are trying, but I fear the business model of EK will be too strong for them to largely succeed. Best of luck to them anyway.
azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3555 posts, RR: 30 Reply 33, posted (8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 16060 times:
Viscount - I've only been on 9 abreast 777s and didn't notice an appreciable difference in comfort when I flew a 10 abreast 777 (AF) for the first time. I really think it's much ado about nothing.
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3075 posts, RR: 10 Reply 34, posted (8 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 15625 times:
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 33):
Viscount - I've only been on 9 abreast 777s and didn't notice an appreciable difference in comfort when I flew a 10 abreast 777 (AF) for the first time. I really think it's much ado about nothing
I'd have to agree. The seat is 17 Inches wide, which is the same as found on a 737, and earlier in the 707 before it which was used on long haul flights. it's probably only a problem when you have 3 guys seated beside each other that all have particularly wide shoulders.
icarus75 From France, joined Oct 2003, 768 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (8 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 15389 times:
Quoting airproxx (Reply 24): Well, to be honest, service to french customers is not always as fine as it seems too! It's been said already that AF F/A are not always handful, nice, smiley, even not always polite. People inside the airline don't want to face the truth, but I think AF service is perceived badly by customers, mainly because of doubtful behavior by F/A. Even ground staff can be rude. Again, I do share your vision. What can you say about AF staff in general?
I fly AF in Europe (I know, it is not long haul) a least twice a week and the flight staff is always really, really fine!
FA smile all the time, they are very polite and very helpful with passengers.
I have the chance to fly in Eco Premium but I see how Economy people are treated : always fine.
Another nice thing with AF I did not notice on AZ or LH : no mater the destination you're going to or flying from, in 95% of he case, all he announcements are made in French, English and the country language (recorded voice)
oykie From Norway, joined Jan 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 4 Reply 36, posted (8 months 1 week ago) and read 13505 times:
Quoting g500 (Thread starter): I still say European, Canadian, U.S and Australian airlines' biggest problem is they are constrained by unions and contracts where the Gulf carriers are NOT.. But this is a first good step
and of course that neither Europe nor US invest enough in infrastructure to keep up with demand.
Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large, then go make that dream real - Donald Douglas
And its 100% on the union then? The company has nothing to do with it? they were willing to have constant talks, give the union a fair price(for whatever they were asking for) and did everything possible to prevent the strike? hmmmm Sorry. I am going to call horse poo.
Quoting falkerker (Reply 11):
Totally agree, unions should be restricted when they damage the company. Theoretically, unions serve to protect the workers from their patron in a David v. Goliath kind of struggle. However, reality shows unions would rather take a company down into bankruptcy than give into some benefits (and this is not only for airlines). Not trying to get into a union vs patron discussion here (since I think unions tend to bite the hand that feeds but patrons also tend to exploit their workers), but why won´t they see that if the company as a whole gets better, their own conditions will start to improve but only keep on trying to get major benefits and drive the company down...
.......Why can't management work with employees to improve the company?
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15):
although I agree, and do not support unions in any fashion, its simple governments that hold this power. Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.
This. Unions aren't the problem, its the general endless bank accounts of some of the carriers in the ME.
"Oh look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky! Look at the sUGAr falling out of the sky!" LM 1922-2011 Go Dawgs! G.A.T.A.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 38, posted (8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10389 times:
I wish people were more informed about their economic decisions and the ramifications thereof. In such a world, people like kl911 could fly their Ryanairs and Emirates and work under the same delightful conditions those employees are put through, whilst the rest of us with higher expectations of themselves pay the extra dime to honor the lifestyle AF, LH, BA etc. are providing their employees with.
Personally, I have a weird love for France. French people are usually über nice to me, even though I hardly speak any French. CDG is a mess, but I can live with that. There are enough gorgeous girls around to keep any transit interesting and the navigating through the maze keeps you entertained. As for the onboard product.. their Europe fleet could do with monitors and moving maps. The longhaul fleet is fine, you've just got to know what you're buying.
But this is where, at least from an economy class passenger point of view, the problem lies. I will pay extra to fly an AF A388 or the 744 upper deck. But that price flexibility isn't infinite; if a LH A388 is cheaper than the AF one, I'll go with that. If a SN A333 is even cheaper, then that's where I'll go. If a LH A343 is even slightly cheaper than AF on the same airplane, then I'll fly German. And I refuse to fly on any 10-abreast 777.
My point being, AF doesn't do much to the average traveller to stand out. At least not in a positive way; many people I know find CDG annoying and AF staff extremely rude. EK, QR on the other hand will provide you with generous food, an outstanding IFE and cheap fares. It also helps their cause to hire people from 3rd world countries and threaten to send them back after 3 complaints about their conduct towards passengers.
And maybe this is all because AF is too much of a number-run company, than suggested above. AF doesn't seem to understand that they are competing for the customer's favor, and their money, but somehow take it for granted. AF seems to look at the numbers too much and seems to forget that their customers are humans. Yes, you can raise revenue by squeezing more seats into your planes, you can cut costs by cutting services - in theory. In reality, that's at least what I believe, however, this will only drive people away and what worked out nicely on paper will backfire in reality.
AF should take more pride in their product and work really hard on their corporate identity. Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second. If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 39, posted (8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10283 times:
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20): We might not be the most pro-European nation, but last time I checked the UK was in Europe! BA introduced a four class layout a few years back now, and I would say can compete with the Gulf carriers on service. The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.
BA has always been more innovative then Air France since BA has Virign on its back. BA also tensformed around the time of its privatizations. Lord King and Colin Marshall were ahead of their time in European aviation.
carl50mq From Martinique, joined Nov 2007, 13 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (8 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 10174 times:
Quoting icarus75 (Reply 35): I fly AF in Europe (I know, it is not long haul) a least twice a week and the flight staff is always really, really fine!
FA smile all the time, they are very polite and very helpful with passengers.
I have the chance to fly in Eco Premium but I see how Economy people are treated : always fine.
Another nice thing with AF I did not notice on AZ or LH : no mater the destination you're going to or flying from, in 95% of he case, all he announcements are made in French, English and the country language (recorded voice)
Except for PAR/FDF, PAR/PTP and PAR/RUN, I agree with you.
The worst AF performances are on these destinations (COI)!
Thanks a lot for your posting and kind words!
We definitely need more customers like you.
My interest is to get people and AF customers their feel about what's right and what's going wrong with Air France.
During decades, we've been facing many political/cultural influences that shaped in a bad or a good way, the airline we know today.
But your remarks and enthusiasm about Air France make me feel like trying to improve and offer the best service we can to our customer is and always be worth the effort anyway.
I've been flying for a small executive airline in France before joining AF, and in my young days of an airline employee, I learned what it was to deal with demanding customers. My personal critical point is that we must turn more towards passengers and customers, than losing time in trying cutting cost by any means.
As a simple employee, I'll do my best to get your message sent to the proper AF service, and I'll try to get it the attention it deserves, because I believe your points, as all those I've been reading in this forum are much more important than any basic customer review the airline can order right now.
I'll try to make your post as influential as possible for my airline.
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 29): Thank you for your kind words and when future travel plans take you to LAX, please don't hesitate to contact me and I'll be happy to extend our California Hospitality to you with a welcome drink - champagne, maybe?
With great pleasure! I'm always glad to make new connections out there, California is a wonderful place. I wish I could spend my old days there
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 29): Je vous souhaitez un tres bonne journee!!!!! (I hope my spelling is correct)
Your spell is almost perfect! It's always great to ear from people loving french language!
Je vous souhaite une excellente journée à vous aussi!
Thanks a lot again for your time and post!
See you in LA I hope,
David
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (8 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 8047 times:
Quoting something (Reply 38): And maybe this is all because AF is too much of a number-run company, than suggested above. AF doesn't seem to understand that they are competing for the customer's favor, and their money, but somehow take it for granted. AF seems to look at the numbers too much and seems to forget that their customers are humans. Yes, you can raise revenue by squeezing more seats into your planes, you can cut costs by cutting services - in theory. In reality, that's at least what I believe, however, this will only drive people away and what worked out nicely on paper will backfire in reality.
Cannot agree more with this part. My opinion is that we've been on a pure financial logic, seeking for cost-cutting in any way. This policy is a very short termed response to what causes so much damages to AF. And inappropriate. While AF does that, the response of EK or SQ, or even LH and BA is; more attention to customers, more efficiency, more quality of service, etc.
I totally understand passengers turning their back to AF in favor of another carrier.
That said, my opinion is also that AF was literally bleeding money some months ago.
And the first priority was to preserve cash, to try to stop the dramatic loss. I must admit that this mission is almost a success. But now AF must invest for customers. I think that the seats revamping are a first response. Internet will also be available in a short while on long haul aircrafts... There's a move in the right direction I think.
Quoting something (Reply 38): AF should take more pride in their product and work really hard on their corporate identity. Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second. If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..
Agreed. And I hope AF direction will lead towards a better quality product. Old legacy airlines cannot compete otherwise in my opinion. Against low cost carriers and other competitors, the best response we can give is, more quality.
Now think the message has been received by AF CEO, I hope that AF staff will follow in that way, because the best product in the world will be nothing without a good and wilful staff...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1584 posts, RR: 21 Reply 43, posted (8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 7158 times:
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1): They're chasing after the wrong thing, but good luck.
Quoting jfk777 (Reply 1): 4 class 777-300ER seem to be the exclusive domain of Asian airline like JAL and Cathay.
Except BA was one of the pioneers of this concept! And AF is already operating as a 4 class airline.
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 7): I've flown AF many times and it's clear their problems are NOT their cabins or service. Their competitive issues lie with costs associated with inefficiency.
Exactly they are at a distinct competitive disadvantage which a cost base that is so much higher than Emirates, Qatar and even Cathay and Singapore. There are some things AF can do to legitimately bring their cost base down, especially vis a vis their European counterparts, but most of it is unfortunately chalked down to completely different operating environments of their home bases, especially when you consider EK, QR and to a lesser extent SQ.
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13): Asian and Middle Eastern carriers have brought better hard products, and the US airlines are following. Delta is going to 100% flat business class. United is almost there. American is a disaster, but has committed to upgrading to flat business. BA has been there for a decade, but Lufthansa is finally starting to go flat. AF is falling behind.
This was rather appalling to me - especially because I believe J pitch on AF is below industry standards at this point. If they want to remain competitive as one of the big players in Europe, this MUST happen. The A380 would have been the prime opportunity to make this transition but alas better late than never I suppose.
Quoting falkerker (Reply 14): Doesn't KE also have angled flat seats on the A388 on J as well? I
I believe its the same J seat as the rest of their long haul fleet but just fully flat, kind of like what Qantas did with their Biz Class seats.
Quoting LondonCity (Reply 19):
But KL has already announced a major business class upgrade which will include the introduction of fully lie-flat seats. So it meant AF had to follow otherwise passengers would question why one partner had the better product.
I wasn't aware of this - perhaps there will be some streamlining of products between the two?
Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 20): The problem BA, however, faces is that it's located pretty much as far West in Europe as you can get, so for transfer traffic it's very hard to compete.
Ah but BA is BA - they have a lot of other things going for them - very strong O&D demand, a very strong brand and national identity and are based at one of the highest yielding airports in the world.
RyanairGuru From Australia, joined Oct 2006, 2525 posts, RR: 2 Reply 44, posted (8 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6724 times:
Quoting something (Reply 38): If people knew they'd get the nice food, nice IFE, nice seats with nice cabin crew on their next AF flight, all of which would not double the price of a ticket, AF would gain a lot of appeal. That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue. And that is something the gulf carriers have truly understood (to copy from SQ). But then again, the idea of ''offering a competitive, quality product'' is not all that revolutionary to begin with..
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43): they are at a distinct competitive disadvantage which a cost base that is so much higher than Emirates, Qatar and even Cathay and Singapore.
I agree with both of you equally and neither of you at the same time!
Something, you are absolutely right. This was something that Qantas realised about 5 years ago, which resulted in the upgraded product in F, J and Y on the A380 and the retrofitting of the A380 product on the 747 fleet. Further, QF's Y catering and wine list is now truly world class. These upgrades are possibly the only "good" thing QFI have done in the past decade. Anecdotally, they have helped somewhat slow the stream of people leaving in droves for the Gulf carriers.
However, as has been dramatically played out over the 12 months through grounding the airline, taking a knife to LHR, and ultimately retreating to DXB, these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43): Ah but BA is BA - they have a lot of other things going for them - very strong O&D demand, a very strong brand and national identity and are based at one of the highest yielding airports in the world.
Absolutely. BA is similar to CX in that they have a strong brand in one of the highest yielding O&D markets in the world. All of their connecting traffic could dry up, and it probably wouldn't kill either of them. Yes they would downsize, but not die.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 45, posted (8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 6045 times:
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44): This was something that Qantas realised about 5 years ago, which resulted in the upgraded product in F, J and Y on the A380 and the retrofitting of the A380 product on the 747 fleet. Further, QF's Y catering and wine list is now truly world class. These upgrades are possibly the only "good" thing QFI have done in the past decade.
And how did that work out for them?
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44): these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.
I think if anyone needs proof that the problem is not product, we need look no further.
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43): This was rather appalling to me - especially because I believe J pitch on AF is below industry standards at this point.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 21): Now is AF being wise and going with thinner lie flat seats a la EK/LH
EK doesn't have lie flat in J except on the 380, and those seats are some of the narrowest seats in the sky. Kudos to EK for convincing everyone their J is much better (and flatter ) than it really is though
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2096 posts, RR: 10 Reply 46, posted (8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5785 times:
Quoting kl911 (Reply 8): We can only hope Unions will be finally banned or at least severely restricted in damaging the companies and travellers.
Quoting lucky777 (Reply 9): Such a short-sighted comment to make with nothing to back up the claim that unions-at-large "damage companies and travellers"...care to put some meat on that hollow statement next time?
As for damaging travelers, I imagine there are plenty of AA passengers willing to provide you that "meat" this week. Do you you disagree?
Unions have (at large), and do damage companies. Eastern comes to mind. That being said, Southwest shows how management and unions can work collaboratively. I'm not anti-union, in fact, have been a union steward. Banning unions is not realistic. Union expectations, in many cases, have become habitually unrealistic, and are a problem.
Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15): Having full government backing is what is allowing these Gulf Carriers to take over. Turnover of flight attendants, keeping staff young and on the lower wage scale compared to otehr carriers also plays a MAJOR role in the balance sheet.
Until that is addressed, all of the world's airlines are at a disadvantage when competing with the gulf carriers.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 47, posted (8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5768 times:
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 44): However, as has been dramatically played out over the 12 months through grounding the airline, taking a knife to LHR, and ultimately retreating to DXB, these service improvements did absolutely nothing to improve the bottom line.
Luckily the situations of QF and AF are vastly different. QF went head to head with EK on the kangaroo, or falcon route. AF has at least the advantage of being non-stop to many markets EK tries to go after. Then there are all the markets that airlines from fantasy nations are no competition in - basically everything west of France, Northern Asia und parts of Africa.
AF doesn't need to find a new balance in offering a good product, at a competitive price, to compete with the gulf airlines and get market share back. This is never going to work. The positions of EK and QR are just so vastly more advantageous that ''resistence is futile''. This money would be better spent lobbying the French gov't to impose special taxes on EK or something to that effect.
No, what AF needs to do is recognize its strengths and focus on them. On markets to North America they just need to be cheaper and better than the some European and the US airlines. That's doable. Flights to Africa have zero, or the occasional SN A330 as competition. That can be out-shone. South America really has only LATAM, Iberia and TAP against them. Neither of which, especially the two European airlines, excel at anything. Chinese airlines are also not that hard to out-do and Japan seems to be a really strong market for AF as it is.
If I were AF, I'd focus on these markets and would frankly neglect South East Asia. For Oceania traffic, I'd work something out with KE and Virgin for domestic connections. My efforts in chasing those passengers would be of moderate length. It's a lost cause and money can also be earned elsewhere.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15730 posts, RR: 48 Reply 48, posted (8 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5705 times:
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 46): That being said, Southwest shows how management and unions can work collaboratively.
WN has been able to pay them off for years. Legacies have not been able to do that. Let's see what happens when WN no longer can pay labor to keep calm and carry on.
jfk777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 7348 posts, RR: 7 Reply 49, posted (8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5695 times:
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43): Except BA was one of the pioneers of this concept! And AF is already operating as a 4 class airline
AF is new to the Premuim economy game( its A380 were NOT deilvered with Y+), BA has had it for about 10 years. Its been speculated BA only has Y + because Virgin Atlantic has had it for 20 years, "Mid-Class became PE".
The world seems to being going Y+ crazy, JAL now has it and Cathay is new to it too. LOT Polish airlines even has it on their new 787-8.
SPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2096 posts, RR: 10 Reply 50, posted (8 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5642 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 48): WN has been able to pay them off for years. Legacies have not been able to do that. Let's see what happens when WN no longer can pay labor to keep calm and carry on.
The reality that pay raises are going to get thin has already surfaced at WN. I know the days of Herb are gone, and the company spirit has been diluted by size and growth. I still think a mutual respect and collaborative approach have been an ingredieant WN had, and others did not.
I, too, wonder what the labor relations scenario at WN will be 5 or 10 years from now.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
I really appreciate all of your efforts and look forward to any updates you may have. I used to work in Customer Services so I can genuinely see both sides of any situation. I truly believe any organization always deserves a little slack as everyone knows no one can be perfect every day, but I can say from personal experience AF makes significant positive effort!!! =]
And I'd like to mention EK is not Michelin Starred in terms of its' cuisine. EK has some delicious food on their aircraft (for the few times I've flown EK) but everybody knows France ranks above and beyond in terms of cuisine and that wonderful goodness reflects in the delicious AF Catering!!! Nous adorons Alain Ducasse et Guy Vefour!!!!!!
Don't ever feel threatened by EK. Those of us who know and whom have been gracing the skies with AF throughout the years know "The Fine Art of Flying" has always been with Air France. (One of your former advertising slogans, in case you didn't know). Marketing works wonders, doesn't it?!!!! =]
sq_ek_freak From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2000, 1584 posts, RR: 21 Reply 52, posted (8 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5531 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45): EK doesn't have lie flat in J except on the 380, and those seats are some of the narrowest seats in the sky. Kudos to EK for convincing everyone their J is much better (and flatter ) than it really is though
Ha! Caught red faced. Though I have to say I work these cabins day in and day out and I haven't received a complaint once about our angled flats. But true, we don't have true lie flats. We do however have a 2-3-2 J layout in a cabin that was designed for J to be 2-2-2 plying routes that are up to 9 hours long, but never mind that
The main complaint is being ignored (F/As just turning a back on a simple and polite requires, e.g., for another glass of wine). There service isn't up to the same standard as those of fairer skin often receive.
I also go off my best friend's father (who is also a friend of mine). He owns an apartment in Paris (but lives in California, albeit that Northern hippie colony). He and his wife have great service on AF (when they don't fly AA, he has 4 or 5 million miles on AA. Not FF miles, actual miles.). So do my Aunt and Uncle. All are French speakers (the women at a native level). But they note their Indian friends do not get the same level of service. They are not offered the extra wine, snack, blanket, etc. Nothing overt. Just not an exceptional experience.
varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 9 Reply 54, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5386 times:
Quoting airproxx (Reply 24): It's been said already that AF F/A are not always handful, nice, smiley, even not always polite. People inside the airline don't want to face the truth, but I think AF service is perceived badly by customers, mainly because of doubtful behavior by F/A. Even ground staff can be rude. Again, I do share your vision. What can you say about AF staff in general?
Salut airproxx
Since lately I am a returning AF customer.
I noticed positive changes: my last 3 flights, FA always said 'bienvenu a bord' to each pax with a smile and made eye contact which in the past was apparently a great (impossible) effort.
Pursers everytime were extraordinary.
One of these pursers was a 50 something ORY woman, probably one of the ex Air Inter, who traditionally were ex DDR Interflug cold and nasty style. I thanked her and said 2 words when I left because it was really fantastic the way she handled the flight.
I feel employees are aware of the wall AF is going to fly in if they don't change.
From pax side, the changes are well perceived, I started rebooking AF again for my next trips even if they are 30€ more expensive per return flights compared to the orange tails.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 26): My Indian friends who have flown J on AF have *not* been happy with the experience. In general they have gone over to LH or EK.
Though I understand what you mean, I have greater difficulties swallowing this one every time I read it.
The ones who are not happy make NO efforts whatsoever (I am no AF employee but CDG1 worker = more star alliance involved therefore).
I am generally well tempered and speak 4 languages fluently + 3 others at basic level and try to help lost pax at CDG whenever I can.
The "not happy" really gets on my nerves because whatever you explain is never enough.
They would like you to take their hands (and baggage some times).
In France people don't have servants anymore and you're supposed to get around on your own: we even call it system D.
Plus, if so many US citizens, Chinese and Latams do it in France why others can't? please...
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
TGV From France, joined Dec 2004, 868 posts, RR: 23 Reply 56, posted (8 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5292 times:
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28): The seats are narrower, as are the armrests and the gap between the seats. You can't generate enough space to squeeze in one more seat by just reducing the aisle width. Get off a 10-abreast 777 and board a 9-abreast 777 and you will notice the difference.
I was a very loyal AF Customer (around 250 flights, most of them Long Haul, I am Life Platinum) but have now moved my business elsewhere (mainly Lufthansa) for two reasons :
1) the changes in Flying Blue : this, for me was only a marginal reason. However, what I found really insulting was the way these changes were presented, insisting they were "improvements" to the program, when they were only benefits reductions.
Do marketing people think Frequent Flyers are totally stupid ?
2) first an foremost the 3-4-3 config on the 777.
After having spent 2 nights without sleep (CDG-HKG an return) some years ago I promised never to set foot again in such a cabin (whatever the airline), and have succeeded. This often entails longer trips times, with connections (my home base is in Paris), but at least I can sleep !
I guess the 3-4-3 config can be acceptable if the seats near to you are free. It was not the case on the flights I took and being in permanent elbow contact with the wall on one side, and my neigbour on the other side was not a pleasant experience at all.
However I still fly AF when I can get a decent fare in premium Eco (decent means 1300-1400 euros for a flight to Asia, not 1800 !) or if the flight is operated with a A380/340/330 or B744, which have acceptable levels of comfort in Eco.
For example I will soon fly to NRT on the AF 380.
To do the booking I had to call AF call center. In effect the AF website still does not enable to chose between different fares in terms of flexibility (except the full Eco, who pays this ?), so I had to call to get a changeable fare on the return : AF should look at CX, LH or SQ websites to see what can be done !
However this gave me the opportunity to chat with the lady of the hot line (they are always very professional and efficient). When explaining why I did not want the 777 operated flights on the route she told me to write to the AF customer service, which was a good suggestion.
Unfortunately I had precisely done that after my terrible 3-4-3 flights : at the time I received an answer which was : "this is what our customers want".
Once again marketing people may be right, but not with me !
For the rest I have to say that I have always (except some very infrequent cases) had very good staff, as well on board as on the ground. That the catering (on long haul flights), is still correct. And that the punctuality is satisfying.
Even CDG is improving (here I am not able to tell which part is AF and which part is ADP) !
So AF has probably an opportunity to change things, if taking the correct decisions.
Done
Avoid 777 with 3-4-3 config in Y ! They are real sardine cans. (AF/KL for example)
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (8 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5036 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45): EK doesn't have lie flat in J except on the 380, and those seats are some of the narrowest seats in the sky. Kudos to EK for convincing everyone their J is much better (and flatter ) than it really is though
That's one of EK numerous strengths; no matter what they do or say now, people believe this is better anyway!
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 51): Don't ever feel threatened by EK. Those of us who know and whom have been gracing the skies with AF throughout the years know "The Fine Art of Flying" has always been with Air France. (One of your former advertising slogans, in case you didn't know). Marketing works wonders, doesn't it?!!!! =]
I remember this one indeed Your support is precious, and I hope that AF will know how to please you again for your next journeys!
Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 51): I truly believe any organization always deserves a little slack as everyone knows no one can be perfect every day, but I can say from personal experience AF makes significant positive effort!!! =]
Thanks for that, I really appreciate it.
I think one of the most significant moves AF employees made this last few years, or even month, is just to stop staring at themselves, and looking around to focus on customers needs. I think this is not only an AF thing, but a french complex in general. This move is far from being complete, and we must keep doing this effort.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 54): One of these pursers was a 50 something ORY woman, probably one of the ex Air Inter, who traditionally were ex DDR Interflug cold and nasty style. I thanked her and said 2 words when I left because it was really fantastic the way she handled the flight.
I feel employees are aware of the wall AF is going to fly in if they don't change.
From pax side, the changes are well perceived, I started rebooking AF again for my next trips even if they are 30€ more expensive per return flights compared to the orange tails.
Thanks for sharing your feel. Actually, I noticed that too. And those past few month have been decisive in AF staff perception of the economical downturn. Of course you'll keep seeing employees still complaining about futile things about their contract. I regret that, but honestly, it's probably just a few percentage of all people involved in AF operations.
The fact we directly witnessed what happened @ Alitalia a few years ago motivated people to change their behavior. This is a positive thing I guess...
Anyway I see you're well informed and familiar about AF origins and history. We always hear weird stories about pursers or other F/A coming from Air Inter. It's true they didn't have the same habits we used to have at AF. But honestly, those guys don't work bad to say it simple. there was just an old "Air Inter" style to get rid of, too familiar, and sometimes perceived by customers as "rude". Now F/A and even pilots try to make an effort for customers to feel a little bit more comfy, and cared about.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 53): The main complaint is being ignored (F/As just turning a back on a simple and polite requires, e.g., for another glass of wine). There service isn't up to the same standard as those of fairer skin often receive.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 54): Though I understand what you mean, I have greater difficulties swallowing this one every time I read it.
The ones who are not happy make NO efforts whatsoever (I am no AF employee but CDG1 worker = more star alliance involved therefore).
My feeling too. But one thing I can affirm now, is that there's no "fairer skin" from AF staff. AF employees are from many different nationalities/ethnic origins. So no "racial" thing here. But to go your way, Indian customers are a very demanding market, and AF staff are not really fond of Indian flights. This said, it cannot excuse in any way a lack of service quality for our Indian customers, and your remark is interesting.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 54): I started rebooking AF again for my next trips even if they are 30€ more expensive per return flights compared to the orange tails.
A big personal thank you for that! Merci
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
Viscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 21488 posts, RR: 24 Reply 58, posted (8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4985 times:
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 33): 've only been on 9 abreast 777s and didn't notice an appreciable difference in comfort when I flew a 10 abreast 777 (AF) for the first time. I really think it's much ado about nothing.
Also depends on your size. If you are smaller than average it's probably bearable, or if you have an empty seat next to you. But putting 10 people in the space of 9 can't help but be less comfortable. It also means less overhead bin space per passenger and longer waits for lavatories.
I've been following your posts on A-net for a long time!
Thanks for your feedback.
Your 3 points are interesting;
- Flying Blue program
- 10 abreast config
- AF website
Reading you, I've understood since long time that your personal crusade was against 10 abreast seating B777 , and I don't blame you for that! I've been a passenger on my planes too, I know what it's like...
Honestly, concerning this particular point, I don't know what to think.
The 77W as always been considered as "the" 747 successor on AF fleet (just as for many other carriers) but in AF case, fleet planners met financial directors who considered the option to put a 10 abreast seating. I personally think it's a bit too much. The first oddity that comes to mind is the 77W in COI (Caraïbes, Ocean Indien) config.
But from a customer point of view, I understand your frustration. I don't like this cabin neither.
Glad to read that you keep flying AF J class anyway...
About the fidelity program, as mentioned before, I hope there will be some nice changes. Cutting cost must not impact passenger loyalty rewards.
The website has been revamped lately, must still be improved. My brother (who's not eligible for staff tickets) had the same problem for his frequent trips to North America, and I'm aware of that.
Thanks for sharing, really.
À bientôt !
David
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 60, posted (8 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4968 times:
Quoting TGV (Reply 56): being in permanent elbow contact with the wall on one side, and my neigbour on the other side was not a pleasant experience at all
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 58): Also depends on your size. If you are smaller than average it's probably bearable, or if you have an empty seat next to you.
Or it depends on the neighbour "quality"! Travelling side by side with a nice charming girl can improve a lot your experience
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 61, posted (8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4908 times:
Bit surprised by some of the doom and gloom being spread on this thread. AF needs to keep upgrading its product or else it will lose to competition. That said, some of the posts are just plain confusing.
Quoting something (Reply 38): whilst the rest of us with higher expectations of themselves pay the extra dime to honor the lifestyle AF, LH, BA etc. are providing their employees with.
If there is even a single Chinese component in the computer you are using, that statement becomes...well...the word 'farcical' comes to mind.
Suffice it to say that the entire concept of Free Trade is built on exploiting 'competitive' advantages, whether its weak labor laws and low wage requirements in Nike-producing countries, footballs from Pakistan, electronic components from China, back-office services from India...and so on. That is the nature of the free market. Or rather, the reason you can afford a personal computer/smartphone to type up your message on, while wearing clothes that have some foreign component, whether its material or workmanship - all obtained from countries that have weak labor/wage laws.
It is hypocritical to attack a group of companies in one sector when what they are doing is perfectly normal. Do I agree with it? Not neccessarily. But thats the way it is. If its fair for one, its fair for all.
BTW, do you think BA pays it Indian F/As the same or similar salaries to its England-based ones? Do the salaries afford the same quality of life to the two?
Quoting something (Reply 38): I will pay extra to fly an AF A388 or the 744 upper deck. But that price flexibility isn't infinite; if a LH A388 is cheaper than the AF one, I'll go with that. If a SN A333 is even cheaper, then that's where I'll go. If a LH A343 is even slightly cheaper than AF on the same airplane, then I'll fly German. And I refuse to fly on any 10-abreast 777.
Ah, so you are all in favor of value-for-money as long as the money stays in the west (what wth needing to uphold the quality of life in the west). Alright. But what if you found out that AF only used blankets that were made in the EU, whereas LH used blankets that were made in China. Which one would you choose? Or more specifically, would you even bother to check?
Quoting something (Reply 38): It also helps their cause to hire people from 3rd world countries and threaten to send them back after 3 complaints about their conduct towards passengers.
There isn't a western Fortune 500 company in the world that doesn't hire people from 3rd world countries whenever it can,Here's my problem: everybody sitting here and complaining about working conditions in the 3rd world is making money of the back of it, either by being employed by some of these firms, or by earning dividends by investing in them.
Quoting something (Reply 38): Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second.
Quoting something (Reply 38): That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue.
Quoting something (Reply 47): AF doesn't need to find a new balance in offering a good product, at a competitive price, to compete with the gulf airlines and get market share back. This is never going to work.
Quoting something (Reply 47): On markets to North America they just need to be cheaper and better than the some European and the US airlines.
So.....where do you stand exactly?
Quoting airproxx (Reply 42): While AF does that, the response of EK or SQ, or even LH and BA is; more attention to customers, more efficiency, more quality of service, etc.
That is the first time I have seen anyone accuse LH of giving a damn about the quality of service it provides. Safe and efficient? Yes - amongst the best. Service-oriented? Have you tried LH catering on longhauls? Or the 31" seat pitch?
Quoting sq_ek_freak (Reply 43): Exactly they are at a distinct competitive disadvantage which a cost base that is so much higher than Emirates, Qatar and even Cathay and Singapore.
Thats not going to change. However, AF is not competing with EK on all its routes. The high-yielding lucrative TATL market is still open for business with none of the current incumbents interested in putting up a fight. TATL service levels are generally pretty mediocre.
Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 46): Until that is addressed, all of the world's airlines are at a disadvantage when competing with the gulf carriers.
Yes, and unless you fix labor laws nin China, all the world's companies are at a disadvantage...and so on. Complain all you want about it - its a reality.
Quoting something (Reply 47): The positions of EK and QR are just so vastly more advantageous that ''resistence is futile''.
How much of that is self-inflicted by the EU governments? Treating the aviation industry as a cash-cow instead of a strategic asset is hardly smart. EU carriers also have the benefit of a fairly high yielding TATL O&D market that EK can't compete on. If they still can't make a go of it, then the problem isn't the competition. Either the companies are being run badly, or the aviation industry is being governed badly. Either which way, the blame falls squarely somewhere in Europe.
Quoting something (Reply 47): This money would be better spent lobbying the French gov't to impose special taxes on EK or something to that effect.
How about you lobby them to reduce taxes on aviation. Carbon taxes, APDs... airlines might benefit more from policies that provide aviation with advantages rather than punitively attack a couple of carriers.
Quoting something (Reply 47): If I were AF, I'd focus on these markets and would frankly neglect South East Asia.
They don't have much of a presence in South/South East Asia to being with. DEL/BOM/BLR, PNH (not served by any ME carrier AFAIK), BKK, SIN, SGN. Thats not a lot of service to begin with. KL has a larger presence.
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 62, posted (8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4843 times:
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): That is the first time I have seen anyone accuse LH of giving a damn about the quality of service it provides.
Sorry for the confusion, but I wasn't accusing anybody in my post. My goal was just to point out the stiff competition AF has to face. That's it.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Safe and efficient? Yes - amongst the best. Service-oriented? Have you tried LH catering on longhauls? Or the 31" seat pitch?
No but, from a customer point of view, here it is:
Quoting TGV (Reply 56): I was a very loyal AF Customer (around 250 flights, most of them Long Haul, I am Life Platinum) but have now moved my business elsewhere (mainly Lufthansa)
And this wasn't about safety...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 3075 posts, RR: 10 Reply 63, posted (8 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4845 times:
Quoting something (Reply 47): If I were AF, I'd focus on these markets and would frankly neglect South East Asia. For Oceania traffic, I'd work something out with KE and Virgin for domestic connections. My efforts in chasing those passengers would be of moderate length. It's a lost cause and money can also be earned elsewhere.
Yes and No. If we are talking customers departing and arriving in Paris then Yes. But many of AF's destinations require feed from other cities in europe... cities that Emirates fly to. So there is a stop either way, and passengers departing in key markets in the UK and Germany for example, have plenty of very good options in these other asian markets besides south east asia one-stop via DXB in widebody aircraft at full international service all the way. And no messy hub in Paris to connect in. (or LHR for that matter etc).
AF185 From Hong Kong, joined Sep 2012, 117 posts, RR: 0 Reply 64, posted (8 months 6 days ago) and read 4541 times:
Other improved services are also mentionned in this article (French only)
Quote:
(CercleFinance.com) - A l'occasion du salon IFTM-Top Résa, Air France confirme un investissement de plusieurs centaines de millions d'euros afin de repositionner ses produits et services au meilleur niveau du secteur.
Sur son réseau long-courrier, ces investissements, rendus possibles grâce aux accords signés dans le cadre du plan Transform 2015, permettront un renouvellement des cabines La Première et Business des Boeing 777 de la compagnie dès 2014.
Dès cet hiver sur son réseau moyen-courrier, Air France proposera aux voyageurs d'affaires un service de restauration inspiré des vols long-courriers, avec plus d'attentions et plus de flexibilité en Business et Premium Economy.
Les passagers abonnés sur la Métropole pourront bénéficier début 2013 de nouveaux avantages : les vols domestiques permettront d'accéder plus rapidement et plus facilement aux statuts Flying Blue Elite et Elite Plus. De plus, la carte d'abonnement Métropole sera étendue à certaines lignes européennes, avec une offre tarifaire adaptée.
Enfin, Air France déploiera courant 2013 une offre de presse digitale gratuite, qui permettra aux clients de télécharger et d'archiver la presse du jour sur leur tablette ou leur smartphone avant leur vol.
Basically, 3 more information on top of the cabin revamp:
1. As off next winter, AF will offer meals inspired from Long Haul flights on its Business Class Medium Haul network
2. French passengers with AF subscription (for annualized discount fares on the domestic network) will get more benefits from flying domestically, and will reach Flying Blue Elite and Elite Plus quicker
3. In 2013, AF will launch a free digital media service, for passengers to download and store newspapers/magazines on their tablets and smartphones before their flights
The comment about accusing LH on service was tongue-in-cheek (is - not serious). Suffice it to say, I don't think much of LHs service levels. In fact, in Y, apart from that inch of seat width, I think AF has better catering and better IFE. LH is safe and efficient, but its product is very weak, largely due to a past reluctance to invest in it, which has caused it to lag behind other carriers.
That said, I wouldn't use one sample size as a good example. I've flown LH long haul once in my life and never gone back because it scored very poorly on the value-for-money scale for me (ie there were better products available at similar prices). I read the post about the defection to LH too. I hope he doesnt fly in Y or else he will have an extremely hard time getting platinum level status. Miles and More is incredibly stingy with Y travelers.
That IMHO is AFs weakness too. I don't know if ST has changed but as an FF program, it doesnt do many favors for Y travelers. Sadly, in this econmic environment, a lot of folk who once travelled up front now travel at the back due to company policy.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10687 posts, RR: 100 Reply 66, posted (8 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 4127 times:
Look, I only have a small subset as California is not a big AF market.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 54): The "not happy" really gets on my nerves because whatever you explain is never enough.
I tried my best to explain. These aren't the types who won't carry their own bags. But understand, Indian customers, in general, are more sensitive to being dismissed. Are we claiming that doesn't happen on AF flights?
It also happens *everyone* I know who speaks French is fair skinned, so not exactly a fair comparison. Than again, I live in a region where if one is going to learn a foreign language, it is Mandarin or Japanese due to the common trade ties.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 54): The ones who are not happy make NO efforts whatsoever
That statement gets on my nerves for if you knew these people, you would know that isn't true.
Quoting airproxx (Reply 57): Indian customers are a very demanding market, and AF staff are not really fond of Indian flights. This said, it cannot excuse in any way a lack of service quality for our Indian customers, and your remark is interesting.
I agree Indian customers are very demanding! Most 'self made' people are. They also have... a culture that seems to want to push back. But if my remarks were off base, why isn't AF gaining market share in India? I recall they cut more than LH...
I don't want to beat up on AF. What I want is them to improve and grow! (Even if they prefer GE engines...)
Ah ok! My bad then... I'm not fluent enough in English language to get all the subtleties
That said, I agree with you about FF program getting poorer, especially during hard economic times.
I'm not really aware of the differences between Flying Blue and Miles & More, but I know, by chatting with some of our customers that AF FF program became less and less attractive these past few years...
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 9 Reply 68, posted (8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3731 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66): But understand, Indian customers, in general, are more sensitive to being dismissed. Are we claiming that doesn't happen on AF flights?
Everybody is being dismissed at some points. We do get over it whether in the US, Europe or Latam. If some people are so shocked about it, they should stop staring at their navel and try to open their mind to how other civilizations function.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66): It also happens *everyone* I know who speaks French is fair skinned, so not exactly a fair comparison.
Your inuendo is biased: come to CDG and watch the workers: 2/3 of them are non fair skin French speakers (me included). I don't know where you're driving out but I fear I read thru your lines....
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66): That statement gets on my nerves for if you knew these people, you would know that isn't true.
When pax are supposed to take a flight or leave the airport you, as an airport worker, are not supposed to "know" people...people paid for a service that you must provide on a standardized way, period.
Then if some of these people give really bad impression of themselves being stubborn, demanding, obnoxious and indeed refusing that you say "no" to them, maybe they should work on their behavior, not demanding we do it on account they come from country A or B and that they are special.
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (8 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3585 times:
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 68): If some people are so shocked about it, they should stop staring at their navel and try to open their mind to how other civilizations function.
Or they could just go fly airlines that provide better service/service they are more comfortable with. BA has done a great job with that. As have, of all airlines, AY. Okay, they might have gone a little overboard, but you get my point. *THAT* is the competition.
Point being: customers are not "standardized". Ignore them at your own peril. Its the same reason international flights to India have an 'Indian' option.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 68): When pax are supposed to take a flight or leave the airport you, as an airport worker, are not supposed to "know" people...people paid for a service that you must provide on a standardized way, period.
Again, service issue. Many airlines just seem to do it that little bit better. My fellow Canucks at the airports here are generally quite pleasant and friendly, so its definitely not a regional thing. Asian and Indian carriers are known for being service-oriented. I won't comment on AF (my dealings with them have been acceptable enough - no better or worse than any other EU carrier), but I will say that polite standardized service is better than indifferent standardized service.
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 68): maybe they should work on their behavior, not demanding we do it on account they come from country A or B and that they are special.
Or they can go to an airline that caters to their needs. Which, frankly, makes this entire thread redundant, because nice product or not, people don't like to come away feeling mistreated. And God knows AF/CDG have screwed up on this account in the past too.
Now, you are free to ignore it all, but if that is AF's policy, then why bother with the upgrades? After all, the upgrades are being done to compete with EK etc, and if AF isn't concerned about the market east of the ME, then there's no need to bother.
I'll leave you with a funny, if slightly disturbing article, about the Paris Syndrome.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10687 posts, RR: 100 Reply 70, posted (8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3525 times:
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 68): Your inuendo is biased: come to CDG and watch the workers: 2/3 of them are non fair skin French speakers (me included). I don't know where you're driving out but I fear I read thru your lines....
I was asked on my opinion on where AF could improve. I know a few dozen people who fly regularly from Los Angeles to India at least four times per year in business class (between IT, manufacturing, and diamonds). What I know is AF must improve their competitiveness.
I know why my friends fly AA, LH, and EK. Do you know all the reasons AF isn't doing as well?
Quoting varig md-11 (Reply 68): Then if some of these people give really bad impression of themselves being stubborn, demanding, obnoxious and indeed refusing that you say "no" to them, maybe they should work on their behavior, not demanding we do it on account they come from country A or B and that they are special.
The ones I know complaining tend to be Americanized. Now, some customers aren't worth having. I gave my reasons.
Now some is due to my experiences in Europe. I speak at a poor level German and Spanish. I believe that is why my experiences in German and Spanish speaking countries have been wonderful while many of those I know had a worse experience. I know in Paris I have a *far* better service experience when hanging out with fluent French speakers than on my own. Cest la vie.
But I also know looks impacts service. I usually fly with a sports coat and recently polished shoes as service is always better than if I wear jeans. I also know that I have been 'catered to' due to my looks when my various bosses have been treated roughly (at restaurants, hotels, airlines, etc.). Some has been their fault. Some has been due to preconceived notions of the staff. I've seen it on other airlines. I know I am 8 to 10X more likely to be upgraded, for free, to Y+ on UA than several of my bosses and most of my employees. Some is manners. Some looks.
imiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 71, posted (8 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3491 times:
Whilst I haven't flown on EK since '95, I would consider the IFE offering on EU airlines in Y to range from poor to adequate, with AF being amongst the worst. From the little I've garnered from family members, they consider EK's ICE to be the best with EY not far behind.
This is what EK's Brannelly recently had to say on IFE:
So is all this effort and spending on IFE worth it?
Brannelly says absolutely yes -- it’s essential to the overall customer experience and thus a key ingredient to an airline’s financial success.
“Whereas a lot of airlines are trying to cut budget on products, passenger experience has been paramount for Emirates,” says Brannelly. “It’s so obvious -- people like to be entertained.”
In 1992, when Emirates was the first to install personal screens on every seat for all classes, including economy class, they recorded a 20 percent increase in overall customer satisfaction.
“Why would they think that the cabin crew service is better when the only thing that is changed is the improvement of the entertainment system?” asks Brannelly.
“This is because when you get a happy customer, they are happy about a lot of things; if you got a customer that is frustrated or annoyed, that frustration and annoyance will automatically transferred to other things.”
airproxx From France, joined Jun 2008, 553 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3411 times:
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 71):
“Why would they think that the cabin crew service is better when the only thing that is changed is the improvement of the entertainment system?” asks Brannelly.
“This is because when you get a happy customer, they are happy about a lot of things; if you got a customer that is frustrated or annoyed, that frustration and annoyance will automatically transferred to other things.”
Funny but his tends to contradict some of us (including me!) who believe that all efforts made to improve a cabin with entertainment upgrades are vain if service quality doesn't follow.
In fact I think Brannelly can affirm that without risk because it is EK: Young, likeable, pleasing F/A, without any union "protection" or propaganda. Easy to be confident in a product that won't suffer anything coming from the staff/human part!
The issue with AF is that the staff part is famously known to be sadly inconstant. Your customer experience can be either wonderful if the crew goes that way: service oriented with smiles and attention for everyone, or terribly bad with another crew.
The biggest efforts for AF are to be made this point; Staff relationship with customers, and commercial behavior.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 69): Or they could just go fly airlines that provide better service/service they are more comfortable with. BA has done a great job with that. As have, of all airlines, AY. Okay, they might have gone a little overboard, but you get my point. *THAT* is the competition.
Right. Whatever you carry "demanding" customers or not, it's the airline, and its staff who must adapt to the customer's needs, not the reverse.
That said, I think it's more a perception matter (from the customer) than a quality of service one. I mean, I know we, french people, can be looked as arrogant and rude sometimes. This is a cultural thing, but if it's perceived this way by customers, this is definitely an issue....
If you can meet with triumph and disaster, and treat those two impostors just the same
kiramakora From Argentina, joined Aug 2006, 532 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (8 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3375 times:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 70): The ones I know complaining tend to be Americanized. Now, some customers aren't worth having. I gave my reasons.
Now some is due to my experiences in Europe. I speak at a poor level German and Spanish. I believe that is why my experiences in German and Spanish speaking countries have been wonderful while many of those I know had a worse experience. I know in Paris I have a *far* better service experience when hanging out with fluent French speakers than on my own. Cest la vie.
But I also know looks impacts service. I usually fly with a sports coat and recently polished shoes as service is always better than if I wear jeans. I also know that I have been 'catered to' due to my looks when my various bosses have been treated roughly (at restaurants, hotels, airlines, etc.). Some has been their fault. Some has been due to preconceived notions of the staff. I've seen it on other airlines. I know I am 8 to 10X more likely to be upgraded, for free, to Y+ on UA than several of my bosses and most of my employees. Some is manners. Some looks.
Again, I ruled out rude people.
Lightsaber
You are wasting your time. Certain members who are commenting here have a tremendous reputation of being biased. If you do a read of all their comments on A.Net, an amazing strand of the same phobias come through. I really hope if I was that ethnicity, I did not have to encounter this individual at CDG.
Cosmetic changes to AF still won't change its problem. It is a bloated carrier with no sense of direction and horrible customer service.
lightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 10687 posts, RR: 100 Reply 74, posted (8 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3268 times:
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 71): So is all this effort and spending on IFE worth it?
Brannelly says absolutely yes -- it’s essential to the overall customer experience and thus a key ingredient to an airline’s financial success.
Agreed! Keep the drunk next to me pacified!
Quoting kiramakora (Reply 73): If you do a read of all their comments on A.Net, an amazing strand of the same phobias come through.
Point taken. Let's say I was getting to your conclusion. Let me end that I want AF to improve. Improve as in happier customers (higher RASM due to repeat customers) and expansion. Someone will eventually have to expand in Europe!
varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1575 posts, RR: 9 Reply 75, posted (8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2982 times:
Quoting kiramakora (Reply 73): You are wasting your time. Certain members who are commenting here have a tremendous reputation of being biased. If you do a read of all their comments on A.Net, an amazing strand of the same phobias come through. I really hope if I was that ethnicity, I did not have to encounter this individual at CDG.
You can change name/country many times, you write the same sentences
Like YOU are not biased.....
adios
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
TeamInTheSky From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 506 posts, RR: 0 Reply 76, posted (8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2999 times:
Hi all,
I just got off a 777 from CDG to SIN yesterday. The plane was 100% full, so definitely a little bit of a squeeze in Y. After reading this thread before I flew, I noticed the following things on my flight:
Service was impeccable. For such a long flight, the cabin crew were great.
The J seats IFE screen was smaller than Premium Voyager. Honestly I think I would rather sit in Y+ than J for the money, which surely has to been a drag on the finances.
While the seat wasn't terribly uncomfortable, they are certainly well worn and need some TLC in Y.
The bathroom in Y was in shabby shape. Not dirty as if it had not been tended to, just taken a lot of abuse from daily wear and tear.
Overall, it was a great flight with a great cabin crew, but the interior is certainly showing its age and could do with a refresh.
Kind Regards,
Team
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX
goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1673 posts, RR: 3 Reply 77, posted (8 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2431 times:
Interesting thread and comments. As a very frequent AF traveller, I'd like to add my comments and opinion about AF. I'm flying in all cabins from P to Y, domestic, medium- and long-haul so I think I have a good overview of the airline, as a pax (so of course not as Airproxx who sees the things from the employee point of view).
I had of course my bunch of problems with AF but no more than with other airlines and I had a great majority of good to very good flying experiences. Bad or very bad are only exceptions and the last bad experience was many years ago. Crews are really the strong point of AF, IMO. Maybe the fact that I am French is helping but that doesn't change the fact that they are great. In case of irrops or complaints, I always received promptly good care. So AF is and will remain my airline of choice.
After saying these positive things, I want to add that of course AF needs to change in a way and to improve some aspects if they want to survive in this competitive and hostile environment :
- they need to reduce drastically their cost structure, which is way higher than their counterparts. They still have a lot of executives or pseudo-executives inherited from the period when AF was 100% state-owned and when the French government was forcing them to accept some kind of high-level civil servants they didn't know what to do with.
- they need to increase revenues from P and J class pax. They lost a lot of these kind of revenues during the last 2 years, first because of the economic downturn but also because their J product is now sub-par compared to their competitors. Their P product is fine (especially the fantastic P lounge in CDG) but hugely overpriced ==> they need to lower their P fares if they want paid bookings in P. So the investments to improve the cabins, especially the J one, is vital for AF.
- the 10-abreast seating in Y B777: definitely not a good move, but unfortunately this trend is spreading around the industry. And I heard from Mr De Juniac that there is no intention to come back to 9 abreast seating.
- Premuium Voyageur (Y+) class : a great separate cabin. Very nice for a day flight but it is absolutely impossible to sleep in those seats. It's a shame to think that you might sleep better in a cramped Y seat than in those nice PV seats. AF should really do something about this.
- Flying Blue : well, as said by previous posters, the changes done on April 1st 2009 (known as Flying Blue April's fool in the community) have been a dramatic decision of AF management. They have really shoot themselves in the foot. They have lost a lot of very frequent travelers who were loyal to AF but were very upset about the changes. They lost so many high-tier members that last year they made a huge status match action, to try to attract new elites from competitor programs. I know they received much more demands than what they were expecting but I'm pretty sure 98% of those will not become frequent AF travelers. Yes, we all miss the good old days of Frequence Plus...
- CDG has been a real handicap for AF during all these years, but now things have improved dramatically these last years. So for people on this forum continuing to tell horror stories or speaking about nightmare for CDG connection, please give it a new try for AF connections because things have changed (and it was clearly needed). Of course there is still room for improvement. Regarding signage, it has been also greatly improved and I concur with Varig-MD11 : despite this, some people are really blind or do not want to make any efforts. I witnessed that myself when helping "lost" pax. They were saying "oh but it's not written" and when I was showing them all the signs that had around them, they were quite embarassed !
So good luck AF. Your decision to enhance on-board product is definitely the good one !
flpuck6 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 2119 posts, RR: 33 Reply 78, posted (8 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2282 times:
Quoting goldorak (Reply 77): - the 10-abreast seating in Y B777: definitely not a good move, but unfortunately this trend is spreading around the industry. And I heard from Mr De Juniac that there is no intention to come back to 9 abreast seating.
Bonjour everyone,
Before everyone jumps on goldorak regarding Mr. De Juniac's statement, I was at the same place, same time when Mr. De Juniac confirmed there is no intention to go back to 9 abreast seating
I find the CEO's statement to be bold. It is pretty rare to see such statements from Air France. We can only hope the company follows through (Mr. De Juniac has to now) and for the better.
goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1673 posts, RR: 3 Reply 79, posted (8 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2213 times:
Quoting flpuck6 (Reply 78): Before everyone jumps on goldorak regarding Mr. De Juniac's statement, I was at the same place, same time when Mr. De Juniac confirmed there is no intention to go back to 9 abreast seating
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 24 Reply 80, posted (8 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2114 times:
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): If there is even a single Chinese component in the computer you are using, that statement becomes...well...the word 'farcical' comes to mind.
My computer is from a Korean computer made in Czech Republic. I'm sure some of the components were made in China, but that isn't because I wanted it to be. The extension of your argument would be, girls are sold into sex slavery in Thailand, so let's do it to girls here too. It's happening to some people anyway, so we might as well support it.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Suffice it to say that the entire concept of Free Trade is built on exploiting 'competitive' advantages
The nature of the free market and free trade is specialization. Person A focuses on his trade, person B on his craft and so on. Together they trade their services and products - to make them tradeable/exchangeable, money was invented determine the specific value of something.
Exploitation is the nature of feudalism. Not capitalism.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Or rather, the reason you can afford a personal computer/smartphone to type up your message on, while wearing clothes that have some foreign component, whether its material or workmanship - all obtained from countries that have weak labor/wage laws.
An Iphone, which I don't use, would probably cost $40 or so more in production if it were done in the US. Most of that would not even make it into the final price, but it'd merely decrease the profit margin of the manufacturer. That doesn't even touch the subject of the benefits this would have on the US economy. Or the EU alike. China is now in the position to tell Europe what they can and can't do in certain fields of the economy. That's not a position I like to be in.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): It is hypocritical to attack a group of companies in one sector when what they are doing is perfectly normal. Do I agree with it? Not neccessarily. But thats the way it is. If its fair for one, its fair for all.
What I find unfair is that British people expect a certain standard of living, certain rights and liberties - but to save the quick buck slash quid they're more than willing to deprive other people of what they demand for themselves. Exploiting the economic plight of others is unfair, to my moral understanding. Even more so, when they're in that particular situation through not fault of their own but were only born into the ''wrong'' country.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): BTW, do you think BA pays it Indian F/As the same or similar salaries to its England-based ones? Do the salaries afford the same quality of life to the two?
To be honest, I don't know any details about their working conditions so I can't comment on that.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Quoting something (Reply 38):
I will pay extra to fly an AF A388 or the 744 upper deck. But that price flexibility isn't infinite; if a LH A388 is cheaper than the AF one, I'll go with that. If a SN A333 is even cheaper, then that's where I'll go. If a LH A343 is even slightly cheaper than AF on the same airplane, then I'll fly German. And I refuse to fly on any 10-abreast 777.
Ah, so you are all in favor of value-for-money as long as the money stays in the west (what wth needing to uphold the quality of life in the west). Alright. But what if you found out that AF only used blankets that were made in the EU, whereas LH used blankets that were made in China. Which one would you choose? Or more specifically, would you even bother to check?
I don't quite see the connection between the quoted passage of what I wrote, and your question. All I said is that I would pay extra for quality.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Quoting something (Reply 38):
Their objective should be to put service and quality first, and numbers second.
Quoting something (Reply 38):
That in turn would result in higher fares, higher demand = more revenue.
Quoting something (Reply 47):
AF doesn't need to find a new balance in offering a good product, at a competitive price, to compete with the gulf airlines and get market share back. This is never going to work.
Quoting something (Reply 47):
On markets to North America they just need to be cheaper and better than the some European and the US airlines.
So.....where do you stand exactly?
1. Invest into their product. 2. Charge more for the better product according to market reactions 3. Leave markets they can't compete in to the competition. 4. Focus on markets they can compete in (in this case North America) and beat the competition's value for money.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Quoting something (Reply 47):
The positions of EK and QR are just so vastly more advantageous that ''resistence is futile''.
How much of that is self-inflicted by the EU governments? Treating the aviation industry as a cash-cow instead of a strategic asset is hardly smart. EU carriers also have the benefit of a fairly high yielding TATL O&D market that EK can't compete on. If they still can't make a go of it, then the problem isn't the competition. Either the companies are being run badly, or the aviation industry is being governed badly. Either which way, the blame falls squarely somewhere in Europe.
Their (EK, QR..) positions are better than those of their European counterparts because they operate under conditions that Europeans will not allow. Of course it's the fault of the EU that LH can't be cheaper than EK as it is the Canadian governments fault that the organ market there isn't flourishing, simply because they forbid kidnapping people and stealing theirs. Obviously, I am being facetious here but the point still stands: Europe has certain principles. Those principles cost money, at least in the short term, but that can be said about every moral principle.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Quoting something (Reply 47):
This money would be better spent lobbying the French gov't to impose special taxes on EK or something to that effect.
How about you lobby them to reduce taxes on aviation. Carbon taxes, APDs... airlines might benefit more from policies that provide aviation with advantages rather than punitively attack a couple of carriers.
Unless of course I happen to believe that those percentage points in growth are not worth the cost. Obviously, those charges and taxes aren't designed very effectively and there's a lot of room for improvement and yes, there is a lot the government could do to improve their home carriers competitive position. Be that working on CDG, or imposing a form of an import tax on gulf carriers to level the playing field.
Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 61): Quoting something (Reply 47):
If I were AF, I'd focus on these markets and would frankly neglect South East Asia.
They don't have much of a presence in South/South East Asia to being with. DEL/BOM/BLR, PNH (not served by any ME carrier AFAIK), BKK, SIN, SGN. Thats not a lot of service to begin with. KL has a larger presence.
Which makes it even less necessary to chase after those markets.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 66): Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 65):
I don't think much of LHs service levels.
Interesting. I have several coworkers who love to fly them J LAX-FRA.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 70): I know in Paris I have a *far* better service experience when hanging out with fluent French speakers than on my own. Cest la vie.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 70): I know I am 8 to 10X more likely to be upgraded, for free, to Y+ on UA than several of my bosses and most of my employees. Some is manners. Some looks.
I have started wearing suits when I travel and use a briefcase or a little trolley as opposed to a backpack onboard. People treat you much differently, but that isn't a phenomenon exclusive to one airline, or one country.
Quoting airproxx (Reply 72): The issue with AF is that the staff part is famously known to be sadly inconstant. Your customer experience can be either wonderful if the crew goes that way: service oriented with smiles and attention for everyone, or terribly bad with another crew.
The biggest efforts for AF are to be made this point; Staff relationship with customers, and commercial behavior.
But your experience with crew I believe has ultimately to do with who you are. While I understand some French, I don't make any attempts at speaking it because I am embarrassing and I am to passereux to learn any words beyond passereux. Yet my experiences have been nothing but positive. But I know enough people who can't really say the same.
Quoting goldorak (Reply 77): the 10-abreast seating in Y B777: definitely not a good move, but unfortunately this trend is spreading around the industry. And I heard from Mr De Juniac that there is no intention to come back to 9 abreast seating.
It seems to make sense in the heads of many people. They think the cost of one segment of cabin is x, by squeezing more seats in they can increase the revenue potential for that cabin segment. A lot of people will book AF because it's cheap and AF will thus still be able to fill their cabins based on the ignorance of its travellers. The problem is though, that I doubt anybody who's endured a long haul flight on a 10 abreast 777 is ever going to go back to them. AB tight A332 are the same story. You may not be a business class customer, but those €30 that AF is cheaper are just not worth it. I love AF on A332/A343/744/A388 (haven't been on the A332 admittedly though). But there's just no chance I'll fly on their 777s. CDG-TLV may be doable, but imagine what CDG-SCL would make you feel like.
goldorak From France, joined Sep 2006, 1673 posts, RR: 3 Reply 81, posted (8 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2057 times:
Quoting something (Reply 80): While I understand some French, I don't make any attempts at speaking it because I am embarrassing and I am to passereux to learn any words beyond passereux.
ElPistolero From Canada, joined Feb 2012, 620 posts, RR: 2 Reply 82, posted (8 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1951 times:
Quoting something (Reply 80): My computer is from a Korean computer made in Czech Republic. I'm sure some of the components were made in China, but that isn't because I wanted it to be. The extension of your argument would be, girls are sold into sex slavery in Thailand, so let's do it to girls here too. It's happening to some people anyway, so we might as well support it.
Well, firstly, that makes you a hypocrite. If you're going to preach protectionism, practice what you preach.
Secondly, I m not sure how outsourcing a back office job to India is in any way, shape, or form, comparable to sex slavery. The logic of the argument is that sending a back office job presumably makes production costs cheaper and the product more affordable, with the logical conclusion that it becomes more affordable in more markets and helps free up more discretionary/disposable income (with their benefits on the economy).
I don't see how or where you can insert 'sex slavery in Thailand' in there. Grasping for straws their, eh, sahib (with all that that implies). Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone?
Quoting something (Reply 80): The nature of the free market and free trade is specialization. Person A focuses on his trade, person B on his craft and so on. Together they trade their services and products - to make them tradeable/exchangeable, money was invented determine the specific value of something.
And creating large banks of specialized work forces (think IT in India, the Philippines or Bulgaria (?)), or armies of skilled factory workers (think China) fits in there quite comfortably. Lets not forget that to keep EK going, the UAE has to find and maintain large groups of professionals, be they F/As, pilots, engineers etc. They can't really do it all on the backs of uneducated folk.
Quoting something (Reply 80): Exploitation is the nature of feudalism. Not capitalism.
If capitalism didn't exploit, we wouldn't have those dastardly unions and the stiff labor regulations that European carriers have to operate under. Or that western industries have had to labor under - resulting in manufacturing and other jobs moving elsewhere, where capitalism can continue its exploitation. I'm not sold entirely on the notion that it is *always* exploitation. I just belong to the capitalism school of thought that believes that overpaying for a product relative to everybody else doesn't do anyone any good over the long run. Nice soundbite though. I would have added colonialism alongside feudalism for a little dramatic flair.
Quoting something (Reply 80): An Iphone, which I don't use, would probably cost $40 or so more in production if it were done in the US. Most of that would not even make it into the final price, but it'd merely decrease the profit margin of the manufacturer. That doesn't even touch the subject of the benefits this would have on the US economy. Or the EU alike. China is now in the position to tell Europe what they can and can't do in certain fields of the economy. That's not a position I like to be in.
Two things stand out. One, you're tacitly acknowledging that capitalism is exploitative insofar as profit is a key concern. Two, you're speculating and don't actually know. Why $40? Why not $30? And so on. Most of that profit is going back to the US, where it is fuelling R&D which in turn requires the employment of highly-paid highly-skilled workers. Would you rather have those highly-paid, highly skilled workers there, or would you take a few less of them in favor of standard manufacturing jobs? I don't know where I stand on it (never given it much thought), but the general consensus among policy leaders, governments and captains of industry is that the higher skilled, higher paid job is better than a manufacturing one. In fact, most countries have reoriented their immigration policies to attract the former, not the latter, group of workers. Specialization, and all that.
As for socio-geo-econo-politics, the EU is in the position its in because it's not been very good at managing its money. Some of the welfare is just too expensive to sustain (as is becoming evident in today's Britain).
Quoting something (Reply 80): What I find unfair is that British people expect a certain standard of living, certain rights and liberties - but to save the quick buck slash quid they're more than willing to deprive other people of what they demand for themselves. Exploiting the economic plight of others is unfair, to my moral understanding. Even more so, when they're in that particular situation through not fault of their own but were only born into the ''wrong'' country.
Its the age-old dilemna of trade. That said, trade enriches as much as it deprives. Buying British won't make Britain richer - it will just mean slower economic growth, because higher prices will eat into disposable income, which is a key generator of economic growth. At some point, that will have a knock-on effect insofar as moving a banker/lawyer to Singapore or NYC will be cheaper than maintaining them in London (cost of living and all that). Be careful what you wish for. As for moral understandings...its interesting to see how much they can evolve over decades/centuries.
Quoting something (Reply 80): To be honest, I don't know any details about their working conditions so I can't comment on that.
I am going to assume that British Airways' India-based F/As have the same working conditions as a British-based one. The compensation packages are starkly different though. Look into it.
Quoting something (Reply 80): Their (EK, QR..) positions are better than those of their European counterparts because they operate under conditions that Europeans will not allow. Of course it's the fault of the EU that LH can't be cheaper than EK as it is the Canadian governments fault that the organ market there isn't flourishing, simply because they forbid kidnapping people and stealing theirs. Obviously, I am being facetious here but the point still stands: Europe has certain principles. Those principles cost money, at least in the short term, but that can be said about every moral principle.
Why don't EU counterparts allow those conditions? Past experience perhaps? Yes it is the fault of the EU because of:
All of those are controllable and discretionary. Now if European principles dictate that they force costs on EU airlines (and apparently airlines from the around the world too now), then ummm.. yes, it is their fault that their airlines can't flourish. The EU has no qualms about putting aside certain 'principles' when it has to to make certain sectors more competitive (banking, IT, etc). Change the tax structure for banking in England and watch them flock away. Remove the immigration exemptions for high skilled IT workers in some EU countries and see what happens.... and so on.
Quoting something (Reply 80): Unless of course I happen to believe that those percentage points in growth are not worth the cost. Obviously, those charges and taxes aren't designed very effectively and there's a lot of room for improvement and yes, there is a lot the government could do to improve their home carriers competitive position. Be that working on CDG, or imposing a form of an import tax on gulf carriers to level the playing field.
All I will say is...Heathrow expansion. Imposing an import tax on gulf carriers will be fun though. Its going to be very difficult to apply a tax on a case by case basis - kind of like imposing a special tax on Airbus imports. It will have to apply to all non-EU carriers. As it is, the good folk there haven't figured out how to carbon tax EK's North American flights which fly right through Europe. International law and International trade law...are complex, by the looks of it.
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Cost is a major AF issue. Crew costs are part of it. Part of it is delivering what customers want to pay for and no more (at least no more that has an expense). 
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I just noticed where the people I know are happy and where they are not. 
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