I had a case in LAS where a WN pilot delayed a flight to hold for communting crew, the delay was 10-15 mins just for that. When they arrived the A FA announced 'Now that the pilots friends are here we can leave' The pilot had the FA removed from the flight delaying the flight over an hour. . .
I guess my question is. . When will crews realise that we are in the business to carry and take care of revenue passengers period. When it comes to operating flights. . . its about them not us.
bennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 6392 posts, RR: 1 Reply 1, posted (9 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 26467 times:
Thinking about the WN case, it might have been better if the FA had kept his/her mouth shut, and the Captain had "written him/her up" when they got to their destination.
The Captain could also had "not heard" the comment.
I think the pilot should have just allowed the flight to depart on time. . .both sides could have filed internal complaints with out bringing the passengers into the problem. The FA was wrong for making the announcemnet, the CA was wrong for delaying the flight. (refering to my mentioned WN case)
I could think of two instances where the Captain would be in the right:
1. It was a crew deadheading to work. If the Captain left with out them then someone else's flight might have been cancelled. Several flights could have been affected if the crew was out of position. This kind of thing can have a cascading effect in the system
2. If it was a guy commuting in for work then again the Captain might be able to help him out so another flight doesn't cancel or delay.
A lot of schedules are padded to take into account for delays. On days where its clear and a million I often arrive 30+ minutes early. I don't see what the problem would be if I held a flight for 10 minutes to make sure a crew member got where they needed so long as we still arrived on time or most likely early.
Quoting JONC777 (Thread starter): I guess my question is. . When will crews realise that we are in the business to carry and take care of revenue passengers period. When it comes to operating flights. . . its about them not us.
Even if the Captain was in the wrong it is incredibly wrong of you to assume that all crews are like this. Most of us bust are butts to leave early so that we can arrive early or on time. I know a lot of people make tight connections so I always try to operate on time.
Quoting norcal (Reply 5): Even if the Captain was in the wrong it is incredibly wrong of you to assume that all crews are like this. Most of us bust are butts to leave early so that we can arrive early or on time. I know a lot of people make tight connections so I always try to operate on time.
Being in the field and having done this for nearly 6 years now I get that. . . But I was generally taken aback when I worked nights and was constantly told by pilots to hold for other commuting pilots, who were then generally upset when I put the delay on them. These arent references to deadheading crew. You dont have a choice about holding for them. These are just commuters who choose not to live where there based. What makes crew travelling on there own time more important? Just because they have radios to talk to each other and bypass the ground staff? I guess is my question.
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1322 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25993 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 6): Being in the field and having done this for nearly 6 years now I get that. . . But I was generally taken aback when I worked nights and was constantly told by pilots to hold for other commuting pilots, who were then generally upset when I put the delay on them. These arent references to deadheading crew. You dont have a choice about holding for them. These are just commuters who choose not to live where there based. What makes crew travelling on there own time more important? Just because they have radios to talk to each other and bypass the ground staff? I guess is my question.
AGREED .....AAAAND Pilots don't often get to make those calls officially (the delay has to be coded to someone and I KNOW the CA wouldn't want it on him)... so what, someone else takes the fall because he decides to do as he pleases? Just recently our CA (meaning well) decided to do this very thing for a friend who was commuting... little di dhe know there was a CA in the cabin who was LIVID because he WAS deadheading and if we arrived even 5 mins late to our domicile this CA risked missing HIS commuter flight home.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1321 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25749 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Thread starter): I had a case in LAS where a WN pilot delayed a flight to hold for communting crew, the delay was 10-15 mins just for that.
10-15 minutes can usually be made up in flight. I've been on every end possible in this scenario. From an operating crew standpoint, it's a nice gesture and can be a huge help to a commuting pilot. From the commuting pilot standpoint I had a crew wait 10 min so I could get on (last flight home). It meant the world to me to be home that night. From sitting in the back as a paying passenger, it's a little frustrating sitting back there waiting, but most of the time 10-15 minutes can be made up in flight.
Quoting JONC777 (Thread starter): I guess my question is. . When will crews realise that we are in the business to carry and take care of revenue passengers period. When it comes to operating flights. . . its about them not us.
I think the majority of us realize we are there for the passengers, and y'all are the ones paying our salary. That being said, what comes around goes around. We have to take care of our own at the same time.
Quoting bennett123 (Reply 1): Thinking about the WN case, it might have been better if the FA had kept his/her mouth shut, and the Captain had "written him/her up" when they got to their destination.
The Captain could also had "not heard" the comment.
It would make life much simpler.
Bingo. Unless that was the final straw in some other issues.
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 6): These are just commuters who choose not to live where there based.
I've heard this argument 900,000 times. In 4 years I had 5 different bases. It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to uproot your family and move them every time the market changes and a domicile opens or closes. I've also been based in cities where I could afford to live.
Bottom line. How much of an impact in your travels does a 10-15 minute wait for a commuting crewmember really have? Then again..... This is a.net and part of the reason so few pilots look at this site.
JONC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0 Reply 11, posted (9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25667 times:
ok . . .but if company policy is not to hold for non revenue passengers why is it felt then they are somehow above that? Surly the ground staff when flying non rev have familys to get to as well, but planes arent held for them? Why is it consered rude to not ''think about crew'' when the same accomidations arent made for ground staff?
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 10): Bottom line. How much of an impact in your travels does a 10-15 minute wait for a commuting crewmember really have? Then again..... This is a.net and part of the reason so few pilots look at this site.
WNCrew From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 1322 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (9 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 25599 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 11): Surly the ground staff when flying non rev have familys to get to as well, but planes arent held for them? Why is it consered rude to not ''think about crew'' when the same accomidations arent made for ground staff?
Exactly! FA's included.....
Back to the original post about the AA delay due to FA argument:
It's unprofessional and disappointing. I recently flew with a coworker who was exceptional at his job, but he was constantly on his phone even after pushback. I feel not only is that unprofessional, but it's hypocritical when we've asked all of our pax to turn off their devices.
I waited to say something until we were at our hotel that night and shockingly, he thanks me! He said he tends to forget that he'e even doing it because it's become to normal for everyone and that he appreciates that I took the time to politely remind him.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
JAAlbert From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1218 posts, RR: 1 Reply 14, posted (9 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 24621 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 10): This is a.net and part of the reason so few pilots look at this site.
Talk about some trash talk! Put em up mister!
As for the cell phone incident ... I think this shows its time we start up a nationwide CPA movement "Cell Phone Anonymous" -- 12 step programs to help our nation claw itself out of the dreaded cell phone addiction so many of us have. There are countless stories (and some videos) of people falling into fountains, walking into traffic, crashing trains because they are texting or what not with their damn phones. Enough already! Who has this many friends? How important are they that they must be in constant contact with the rest of humanity 24/7? What sort of separation anxiety do they have that requires they tweet or text in regular 3 minute intervals throughout the day?
I am also rather surprised that the airlines don't have very specific rules about cell phone use while on board -- why a flight attendant or other crew member even has a cell phone out is rather shocking to me. My job wouldn't tolerate that.
TheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1745 posts, RR: 4 Reply 15, posted (9 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 23621 times:
The problem Now is that everyone thinks their time is more important than the next guy. Most people live like they will die tomorrow so better hurry up, run, eat fast, talk fast and use the darn phone even while in the bathroom.
Combine this with a CA that did not take the joke lightly and here is the result, a lot of people inconvenienced.
I almost lost and international flight 2 weeks ago in SFO because we had no gate to connect to so we ended up 45 minutes waiting on a CR700... I complained !!! not because I was in a hurry, my main concern was loosing my flight and waiting all night till 8 am next morning for a flight, just because there was no parking space, on top of that comunication was very poor with the PAX from the cockpit.
If my flight was delayed its ok, but we arrived 20 minutes aerlier and had to run to catch the other flight. Its the I dont care attitude that kills me, I see it everyday and it really annoys me this less than 30 people who think they own the place.
Maybe tha CA had a bad day and so the FA...result....everyone losses.
mm320cap From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 211 posts, RR: 4 Reply 16, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 22817 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Thread starter): I had a case in LAS where a WN pilot delayed a flight to hold for communting crew, the delay was 10-15 mins just for that. When they arrived the A FA announced 'Now that the pilots friends are here we can leave' The pilot had the FA removed from the flight delaying the flight over an hour. . .
I guess my question is. . When will crews realise that we are in the business to carry and take care of revenue passengers period. When it comes to operating flights. . . its about them not us.
What had gone on between the Captain and the Flight Attendant before that comment was made? Was this the final straw of a Flight Attendant who had shown no regard for the Captain as the final authority for the safe conduct for the flight? How much time was the flight plan under schedule? Could they make up the 10-15 minutes in the air, thus ensuring the passengers will still have a nice flight with an on-time arrival, thus meaning the short sit had ZERO impact on the paying passengers?
Oh that's right... you have no idea. We get it, you don't like pilots.
Look, I've been doing this a LOONNNGGGG time, and I've pretty much seen everything there is to see. I've been given delays for things that I had absolutely NO involvement with, and I've asked to be given delays to relieve pressure from some poor, over-worked agents so that they can do the right thing and get some connecting PASSENGERS on the last flight home where there are no connections on the other end. I commute, have never asked a crew to delay a flight, and never would unless I had some extreme emergency. However, I HAVE asked fellow commuters to please let the agent know I'll be trying to make the flight and please don't close the door earlier than they need to to make the on-time. I've been bumped out of my seat 5 times in the last 10 years due to downsizing and outsourcing, and have moved 3 times to live in base. No more.... unless my company wants to start paying for A) any loss I incur in real estate, B) relocating fees etc. etc.
The point here isn't that I want anyone to feel sorry for me. I don't come here on A-net and whine about my fellow co-workers, despite being given PLENTY of reasons to do so by pretty much every employee group.... including my fellow pilots. Why do you feel the need to come on some aviation forum and vent about something you don't have all the facts about?
ABQopsHP From United States of America, joined May 2006, 837 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 22255 times:
Ok so it was Eagle, most of the thread comments make you realize things are not unique to one carrier. its all of us in there together. One my last flights I worked b4 being furloughed I had pulled the jetway back and there was the Capt still working on his IPAD , and we took a 2 min delay. We coded it to him. Never heard a thing back about it, guess he didnt care. But thats ok, it was a STAR flight (RON flt in the morn) and the flight got to IAH 20 mins early so no big deal. The flts are padded at most carriers. But employees have to remember they are there for the PAX and then themselves. All of you that are still in there need to realize things dont look to be getting better at any carrier. Do your best, try to accept reasonable request to do your job inside the proper parameters. Hang on to that job as long as you can. My regards to all of you still in there, at all airlines.
BC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 21665 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 2): I think the pilot should have just allowed the flight to depart on time. . .both sides could have filed internal complaints with out bringing the passengers into the problem. The FA was wrong for making the announcemnet, the CA was wrong for delaying the flight. (refering to my mentioned WN case)
But what we don't know is what other things had transpired with her and the rest of the crew before this announcement she made.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
BC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 21529 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 10): 10-15 minutes can usually be made up in flight. I've been on every end possible in this scenario. From an operating crew standpoint, it's a nice gesture and can be a huge help to a commuting pilot. From the commuting pilot standpoint I had a crew wait 10 min so I could get on (last flight home). It meant the world to me to be home that night. From sitting in the back as a paying passenger, it's a little frustrating sitting back there waiting, but most of the time 10-15 minutes can be made up in flight.
There is not one airline that I can think of that would accept a flight arriving delayed because it was held for non-rev crew members. But if the crew members were on a deadhead, that would be a different story. (very possible they are being deadheaded somewhere to pick up a flight)
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
BC77008 From United States of America, joined Sep 2011, 231 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (9 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 21215 times:
Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 14):
As for the cell phone incident ... I think this shows its time we start up a nationwide CPA movement "Cell Phone Anonymous" -- 12 step programs to help our nation claw itself out of the dreaded cell phone addiction so many of us have.
I suffer from this myself. Just a few weeks ago at IAH I got an an escalator going the wrong way. (It was coming down, I was wanting to go up) It was kind of embarrassing. But did I learn anything from it? NAH!
Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 19): One my last flights I worked b4 being furloughed I had pulled the jetway back and there was the Capt still working on his IPAD , and we took a 2 min delay. We coded it to him.
If he was checking Facebook then that's an issue, but many captains use iPad's for their superior weather apps, etc, so it's very possible he was using it for job duty purposes.
"He waited his whole damn life to take that flight. And as the plane crashed down he thought 'Well isn't this nice...'"
norcal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2383 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (9 months 2 days ago) and read 16519 times:
Quoting JONC777 (Reply 11): ok . . .but if company policy is not to hold for non revenue passengers why is it felt then they are somehow above that? Surly the ground staff when flying non rev have familys to get to as well, but planes arent held for them? Why is it consered rude to not ''think about crew'' when the same accomidations arent made for ground staff?
If I knew a FA or ground person or anyone else company related that was trying to make the flight I absolutely would hold the flight for them too so long as it wouldn't make us late and inconvenience passengers. The problem is how am I supposed to know that another employee is late? I don't have the standby list in front of me in the cockpit and I'm busy doing my job. If someone calls me (has happened) and says, "Hey I'll be there in 2 minutes hold off for a second," I'll hold the flight. If I don't know, I don't know. I'm not sure how that can be held against me or seen as some kind of pilot superiority thing.
I also try and make sure I get jump seaters on if I know about them (FA and pilots) but I'm sure I've left people at the gate before because the gate agent was too lazy issue the jump seat authorization. I know I've had that happen to me before when I've been with in 10 minutes of departure.
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 10): I've heard this argument 900,000 times. In 4 years I had 5 different bases. It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to uproot your family and move them every time the market changes and a domicile opens or closes. I've also been based in cities where I could afford to live.
Exactly, this job is hard enough on the family with out having to up root them every time management makes a change on a whim.
JONC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2012, 125 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (9 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 14876 times:
Quoting mm320cap (Reply 16): Oh that's right... you have no idea. We get it, you don't like pilots.
That was a bit of a judgement on someone you dont know. . .I dont like many people who think there more important than someone else. . .I'm also careful on what I say here to ask reasonable questions from someone fairly new to the field. . .I came to the industry with my only experience in dealing with crew as a passenger. I genually thought everyone got around but ended up finding out that by design the cultrue within the company itself is completely different based on what employee group you happen to be in . . .any of my personal opinions are also based on my actuall experiences while working throughout my time here. I had no prior bias in other words. So just because I might think that it sucks that pilots feel like there 10-15 mins (in some cases) might be worth more to them than the people that paid to be there, doesnt mean I dont like pilots. . .
25 JAAlbert: I'm just joshing with you, DashTrash. I really don't who's a pilot and who is an armchair aviation expert (well I have some suspicions on the latter)
26 usxguy: I wonder if Bon Qui Qui was one of their flight attendants.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXI-oGpdNvU
27 wjcandee: FWIW, this is a common misperception: it's not how the FARs read in Part 121 ops. But I get your point.
28 DashTrash: I figured you were. Most pilots don't post anywhere. There are several message boards out there, and about 2% of the posts contain useful information
29 B727FA: Something isn't gelling here. I *think* Eagle has an FA base at JFK...at least they do at LGA. Call an airport standby FA (at either airport) and go.
30 silentbob: 1. If the crew was deadheading and it would impact another flight, the captain wouldn't have to make that call. Flight Ops would have delayed the fli
31 Cubsrule: I book those connections sometimes. When I do, I do it knowing full well that they can get blown by something, or actually by anything. Whether it's
32 Acey559: I flew JFK-DCA a couple weeks ago and were about to shut the door when the agent told us about a commuting pilot from an from other airline trying to
33 spiritair97: I do that occasionally too. Like at the end of the summer I flew home to NY thw day before I sarted school. My connection in CLT was about 1.5 hours,
34 OB1504: I'm surprised by how obsessed some members seem to be with airline color schemes and potential fleet acquisitions, but they see airline employees as
35 norcal: You're assuming flight ops knows what they are doing. I've seen plenty of times where they have no idea what is going on. A lot of companies like to
36 Cubsrule: Case by case seems to be the key. Let's take something that actually happened to me last summer on an EN flight which, while not exactly on point, ca
37 silentbob: That was in regards to a comment saying "if the crew was deadheading". In my experience, flight ops usually makes that call when deadheading crew wer
38 norcal: That's an extremely unlikely scenario where in the 10-15 minutes that you wait (assuming that the wait still allows you to arrive on time) that somet
39 ASFlyer: How is booking a minimum connection any stupider than a commuting pilot running at the last second trying to catch a flight home, or taking a flight
40 strfyr51: So?? How would you know that Crew Scheduling didn't HOLD the airplane for the connecting Pilots?? How would any of YOU know there wasn't a trip or pla
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There is not one airline that I can think of that would accept a flight arriving delayed because it was held for non-rev crew members. But if the crew members were on a deadhead, that would be a different story. (very possible they are being deadheaded somewhere to pick up a flight)
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