Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Philippine Airlines Ends Las Vegas Service  
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25512 posts, RR: 50
Posted (2 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 20662 times:

Looks like PR has pulled the plug on its Las Vegas service effective January 15, 2013.

The current 4x weekly MNL-YVR-LAS is no longer listed in GDS or the PAL website for booking.

I suppose this might be related to the purported new Toronto service taking up allowed Canadian route frequencies.

The Filipino worker diaspora in Vegas will now need to route via LAX or SFO.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
30 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 20352 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The Filipino worker diaspora in Vegas will now need to route via LAX or SFO.

Or ICN as KE does fly ICN-LAS.

I know that the folks at LAS are really trying to get more service to Asia and losing Philippine Airlines is a blow to those plans.


User currently offlineSANFan From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 5440 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20298 times:

Wow! What a surprise (to me anyway.) Especially interesting in that as long as the Philippines remains in Cat II status, nobody can ADD anything to the U.S. yet here we see PR surrender one of their very few existing routes to this country.

I wonder what the traffic was like on the Vegas route? Was it marginal, or were there other issues with the tag-on from YVR, or is it, as mentioned, somehow due to the confusing Canada-service changes coming soon?

With 787s coming online now with lots of cx, I'm sure LAS will not have to wait too long to see new service to Asia.

bb


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20201 times:

Quoting SANFan (Reply 2):
With 787s coming online now with lots of cx, I'm sure LAS will not have to wait too long to see new service to Asia.

With the raise of Macau and Singapore as major gaming destinations, gamblers in Asia are opting to go to there instead of Las Vegas. Macau has already supplanted Las Vegas as the number one gaming market and Singapore is poised to knock Las Vegas down to #3 very soon (and Singapore only has two casinos so that tells you the sort of numbers those two casinos are doing). There will still be gamblers in Asia that go to Las Vegas, just not as often as they used to and will hit Macau or Singapore more (Similar to the decline Las Vegas saw in the late 70s when the casinos in Atlantic City siphoned a lot of East Coast visitors from Las Vegas.). I just don't see any Asian carrier coming into LAS unless the service is less than daily. Maybe JAL will return to LAS with the three time a week service they dropped several year ago. Perhaps ANA could offer service to LAS . I don't see SQ returning to LAS. (They briefly offered a SIN-HKG-LAS service about 10 years ago that lasted 9 months due to poor ticket sales.).

[Edited 2012-09-23 16:31:40]

User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20180 times:

I believe I have read something about this a while ago. It was something to do with the bilateral (they can only sell 50 seats between YVR - LAS or something) and they wanted to change the aircraft to YVR to a 77W.

I'm a bit surprised, LaxIntl, that you don't know more about it. You're usually the walking library.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20158 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
The Filipino worker diaspora in Vegas will now need to route via LAX or SFO.

Or YVR, with an interline connection.

Quoting something (Reply 4):
It was something to do with the bilateral (they can only sell 50 seats between YVR - LAS or something)

No, the bilateral limits 5th freedom traffic to 50% of the total capacity of the aircraft (calculated on an annual basis).


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 20121 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 5):
Or YVR, with an interline connection.

= I was just going to say this. Why not leverage WS or AC and add a code? WS may be more willing as it won't take awa anything from other Star partners.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 20056 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
I suppose this might be related to the purported new Toronto service taking up allowed Canadian route frequencies.

The current 3x MNL-YVR terminator is being extended to YYZ, so in theory LAS service should be unaffected. At any rate, this is a bombshell.

(And as I posted in the other thread: PR is really pushing through with YYZ: it now appears on KVS.)

Quoting something (Reply 4):
they wanted to change the aircraft to YVR to a 77W.

This would not involve the bilateral (as PR has contemplated upgrading LAS to 77W service in order to provide a consistent product to YVR), but rather Cat II. As long as the Philippines remains in Cat II, the A340 stays.


User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 19927 times:

I flew YVR-LAS in July. I took the trip specifically to log the A340, which I think will become harder and harder to log in the future.

My flight was nearly full; there were at least 75 locally originating passengers who boarded in YVR, in addition to thru passengers from MNL.

Here is a link to my trip report:

PR A340 5th Freedom YVR-LAS (by WA707atMSP Aug 1 2012 in Trip Reports)

I enjoyed the trip; the only disappointment was that no alcohol was available on PR between YVR and LAS; I was looking forward to an in flight San Miguel!

I'm really glad I did not procrastinate in taking the trip, now that PR is suspending LAS.....



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1920 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 19035 times:

srbmod. You really need to check facts. The LAS service is not solely based on gambling. Are you aware of the massive Filipino community that lives in Vegas? Apparently not. As for the SQ service, poor ticket sales was not the issue. The SARS outbreak was the primary issue and airlines dropped a lot of service. When things calmed down, a decision was made not to resume the service.

User currently offlinedisplane From United States of America, joined May 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 10230 times:

Flying LAS-YVR-MNL is a pain especially for a Filipino who is simply going home for leisure purposes- the trip is too long. That is, besides the fact that PR doesn't have a great reputation. And my understanding is that you also have to clear Canadian customs.

The best option for most is HA: LAS-HNL-MNL since that involves only one stop instead of either flying through LAX and stopping again in either ICN or HKG. That is again, if avoiding PR as an airline.


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 10000 times:

Quoting displane (Reply 10):
Flying LAS-YVR-MNL is a pain especially for a Filipino who is simply going home for leisure purposes- the trip is too long. That is, besides the fact that PR doesn't have a great reputation. And my understanding is that you also have to clear Canadian customs.

You don't have to clear Canadian customs if you're connecting to an international flight. You just have to show your passport before proceeding to the international departures area. And your baggage is checked through.

If you're on the PR direct flight LAS-MNL I thought through passenges could just deplane and wait in the international in-transit area without any contact with Canadian authorities. And since PR doesn't use U.S. preclearance, you have no contact with that area in the other direction from MNL to LAS so it should work the same in both directions.

You also say LAS-MNL on PR is too long. But it's still faster by at least 1 or 2 hours than almost all connecting services. The only faster connection westbound I can find is HA LAS-HNL-MNL, and it's only about an hour faster. And eastbound, PR is almost 3 hours faster than the HA connection.


User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1367 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 9942 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 9):

srbmod. You really need to check facts. The LAS service is not solely based on gambling. Are you aware of the massive Filipino community that lives in Vegas? Apparently not.

Certainly. More to the point, LAS traffic in the leisure market is about more than just gambling, although gambling is the largest part. As well, simply being 2nd or 3rd (assuming that's correct; my last visit to Singapore doesn't really jibe with that just yet...) doesn't really have a bearing on that either. Yes, Macau, Singapore & any other gambling market will require increased services as necessary, but as LAS begins its own recovery, I don't really think companies like ANA, JAL, et al will rule out LAS service just because they also serve Macau or Singapore.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 9796 times:

PR has released its timetable for this winter and there seems to be an interesting development in discontinuing LAS. In ending flights to Las Vegas, PR will be offering a consistent product to Vancouver: MNL-YVR-MNL will be served 11x weekly (4x MNL-YVR, 7x YVR-MNL) with the 77W.

Does aircraft substitution and PR's frustration with Cat II have anything to do with it?


User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9721 times:

Quoting crownvic (Reply 9):
srbmod. You really need to check facts. The LAS service is not solely based on gambling. Are you aware of the massive Filipino community that lives in Vegas? Apparently not. As for the SQ service, poor ticket sales was not the issue. The SARS outbreak was the primary issue and airlines dropped a lot of service. When things calmed down, a decision was made not to resume the service.


I was referring to Asian service in general, and I'm aware that not everyone traveling to Vegas is there for the gambling as it is also major convention destination. SARS may have been a way for SQ to end the service gracefully, as many airlines also cut back service to Asia due to it and the decline in travel to Asia in the wake of the outbreak. Around the time they ended the service, many airlines also cut service globally in the wake of the Iraq War. According to the following article, the LAS cut was originally supposed to be temporary and SARS was not mentioned:

http://airtravel.about.com/cs/safetysecurity/a/reacttowar_3.htm

[Edited 2012-09-24 16:44:32]

User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9684 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 13):
MNL-YVR-MNL will be served 11x weekly (4x MNL-YVR, 7x YVR-MNL) with the 77W.

Isn't that 7x weekly? 4 YVR-MNL turnaround flights and another 3 that operate MNL-YYZ-YVR-MNL and only serve YVR westbound. Total 7 flights weekly to/from Canada.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 9656 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 15):
Isn't that 7x weekly? 4 YVR-MNL turnaround flights and another 3 that operate MNL-YVR-MNL and only serve YVR westbound. Total 7 flights weekly to/from Canada.

I counted them as individual flights and not as city pairs (so there are 11 flights a week to or from Vancouver: four to YVR and seven from YVR), as I'm not sure whether or not MNL-YVR is bookable. However, total service to Canada is still once-daily in both directions: four flights to Vancouver, three to Toronto and seven going back from Canada, for a total of 14 flights, or daily service. Apologies if the message I was conveying came out incorrectly.

[Edited 2012-09-24 17:17:02]

User currently offlineiflypal From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 69 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9527 times:

A bit underwhelmed with Project Winter- International

-Nagoya and Osaka was not retimed meaning the 343/330 still overnights-- thought they were going to increase utilization on the widebodies-- thinking that was the ideal candidate(s)
-Nagoya gets 343 service-- lucky passengers on the front cabin
-Seoul goes down to two daily from three
-Singapore goes down to three weekly from four, albeit 2 of the 3 are 330
-Las Vegas goes canned in lieu of Toronto-- they should have routed it through Seoul or Kansai on westbound where the Phlippines enjoys fifth freedom rights and kept 343 going.
-Vancouver eastbound drops to four weekly as a result of Toronto
-Beijing goes back to 8x weekly. Thought for sure that was going to be at least 10 weekly
-No increase in Jakarta, Shanghai or Saigon which I thought was going to happen.
-Everyone already knows the Melbourne/Sydney split--Im actually happy with that one.  
-Not sure where the ex-Domestic capacity will be used internationally, unless they are transfering the aircraft physically to PAL Express

Barring a change in Transpac/Guam in the event of a sudden Cat 1 listing, what is the likelyhood of a beefier schedule?

Either way, more power to PAL.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 9492 times:

Quoting iflypal (Reply 17):
Las Vegas goes canned in lieu of Toronto-- they should have routed it through Seoul or Kansai on westbound where the Phlippines enjoys fifth freedom rights and kept 343 going.

MNL-ICN-YYZ is sure to attract the competition of KE and AC, which PAL cannot compete with. While MNL-KIX-YYZ is doable, Philippine carriers are currently restricted from expanding in Japan due to, you guessed it, Cat II: in fact, expansion plans for Japan were derailed after Japan refused to give additional flight entitlements until the Philippines' SSC is addressed.

Quoting iflypal (Reply 17):
Not sure where the ex-Domestic capacity will be used internationally, unless they are transfering the aircraft physically to PAL Express

I wonder if PAL intends to restore the non-stop MNL-DEL service at some point in the future now that it has freed up aircraft. We might have to wait though for when the first new aircraft enter the fleet next year: more planes might mean more service.

Project Winter Domestic is in itself a very interesting realignment. 


User currently offlineDiesel33 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 302 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9448 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 18):
I wonder if PAL intends to restore the non-stop MNL-DEL service at some point in the future now that it has freed up aircraft.

How did this flight perform on the nonstop? And the direct? Also, any ideas on how the twice-weekly Bali flight is doing?


User currently offlineeta unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2078 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 9390 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
Maybe JAL will return to LAS with the three time a week service they dropped several year ago.

JAL was paid to operate into LAS and pulled out the minute the subsidy time frame expired.

LAS pax will not be rerouted through YVR as any pro-rate fare LAS-YVR will be much higher than LAS-LAX. Will be interesting to see if KE attempts to attract any of this traffic.


User currently offlineabrelosojos From Venezuela, joined May 2005, 5100 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 9197 times:

I want to see how long this last. Economically, this makes no sense - and I feel bad for the MNL-YVR pax who has to go via YYZ.

Saludos,
A.



Live, and let live.
User currently offlineWA707atMSP From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 2231 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 days ago) and read 8979 times:

Quoting displane (Reply 10):
And my understanding is that you also have to clear Canadian customs.

This is not correct!

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
If you're on the PR direct flight LAS-MNL I thought through passenges could just deplane and wait in the international in-transit area without any contact with Canadian authorities.

Viscount724 is correct. When I flew YVR-LAS on PR in July (see the link to my trip report above), MNL-LAS passengers were allowed to wait in the hold room at YVR while the aircraft was serviced. The doors to the hold room were closed while these passengers were inside it, and passengers originating in YVR were not allowed into the hold room until through passengers had re boarded.



Seaholm Maples are #1!
User currently offlinedlflynhayn From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 429 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 8812 times:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):

You also say LAS-MNL on PR is too long. But it's still faster by at least 1 or 2 hours than almost all connecting services. The only faster connection westbound I can find is HA LAS-HNL-MNL, and it's only about an hour faster. And eastbound, PR is almost 3 hours faster than the HA connection.

How is DL connection time comparable LAS-LAX-NRT-MNL??...Could be another option to MNL from LAS...


User currently offlinedisplane From United States of America, joined May 2005, 82 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 8602 times:

Quoting dlflynhayn (Reply 23):

I just checked DL's website and it is an option. I don't know if they still do, ceased it, or not showing it anymore, but the NRT-MNL flight used to stop in Okinawa.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
You also say LAS-MNL on PR is too long. But it's still faster by at least 1 or 2 hours than almost all connecting services. The only faster connection westbound I can find is HA LAS-HNL-MNL, and it's only about an hour faster. And eastbound, PR is almost 3 hours faster than the HA connection.


May be true but like I said, if you're trying to avoid PR.

[Edited 2012-09-25 16:21:58]

User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 8508 times:

This is truly sad to see LAS lose another airline. Now we are just down to KE from across the Pacific. Grant it the number of European carriers we have attracted makes up for it but still, a little variety lost. How many A340 flights are left in the US at this point?

When I read this thread I decided I had to capture one of the PR A340-300s on film before it was too late.
http://youtu.be/VzJ5iUSMzro


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 26, posted (2 years 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 8432 times:

Quoting Diesel33 (Reply 19):
How did this flight perform on the nonstop? And the direct? Also, any ideas on how the twice-weekly Bali flight is doing?

MNL-BKK-DEL did better than MNL-DEL: if I'm not mistaken, the latter only had loads of about 50-60%. That's why not only was the non-stop discontinued with no clear timetable as to when service will resume, but also the aircraft was downgraded: service to Delhi is now done exclusively with the A320. (The new timetable though says that the flight is EQV, so we may see bigger planes plying this route again.)

As for MNL-DPS, I honestly have no idea. But it's been only a few months since it was launched, so I hope it's doing fine so far.


User currently offlinecrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1920 posts, RR: 5
Reply 27, posted (1 year 12 months 9 hours ago) and read 7625 times:

I just returned from MNL this week and was in the Philippines when this news broke. Found some interesting information, while there. Please keep in mind, I got this info from a Head Purser, aboard a 77W flight on a HKG-MNL sector:

1) According to this person, head PAL officials were at Boeing and were feeling "snubbed" by their treatment and went right to Toulouse and struck a bigger Airbus deal. Personally, I think it was probably more like they made a "low ball" offer that Boeing probably said "no" to.

2) Las Vegas service is only temporarily stopped because of equipment issues. The A343's are not in good shape and maybe grounded in early part of 2013. The CAT II situation is really hurting PAL on the U.S. service and they do not have enough long range types to fly to the U.S. under the current rating with the 77W not being able to fly there.

3) My personal observation. The MNL-DAV flight scheduled with a 744 was subbed w/ an A343. The a/c was in questionable condition. Ratty interior, dingy lighting and a horrible air hissing sound coming from under the window. Warn paint and the wing tops looked like an aircraft that acid rain has got the best of. On top of this, no aircon, that the crew repeatedly apologized for. The emergency evacuation cards served as everyone's personal aircon and were strewn all over the cabin upon disembarking! Now, I am not an A343 mechanical expert, but my experience is no aircon, then no pressurization. We did eventually climb to 33K feet, so the pressurization must have been working and at altitude, the a/c did cool down. Upon descending into DAV, the cabin heated up again and no aircon. Perhaps they were down to one A/C Pack? The old Business Class interiors of PAL are way behind the curve and this is what the LAS a/c have. Not a good transpacific product compared to everyone else.


User currently offlineAkiestar From Philippines, joined May 2009, 786 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 6852 times:

So it turns out that I was proven wrong. According to PAL, MNL-LAS is ending due to poor loads.

http://business.inquirer.net/86504/p...s-expansion-in-toronto-middle-east

Quote:
MANILA, Philippines—Flag carrier Philippine Airlines (PAL) is dropping its flights to the so-called “sin city” of Las Vegas in the United States starting December as the company continues to realign operations to eliminate unprofitable routes.

To replace Las Vegas, PAL said it would introduce flights to Toronto, Canada’s largest City. Toronto will be the destination in North America’s east coast in the PAL’s international network.

...

PAL will code share with other airlines to Las Vegas,” Ang told the Philippine Daily Inquirer Wednesday. The decision to abandon the Las Vegas route was a result of poor average load factors.

Now PAL said that it plans to codeshare in order to keep service to LAS. I presume AC will be filling this role, then?


User currently offlineViscount724 From Switzerland, joined Oct 2006, 25457 posts, RR: 22
Reply 29, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 28):
Now PAL said that it plans to codeshare in order to keep service to LAS. I presume AC will be filling this role, then?

WestJet connections are much better. Eastbound, a connection to AC requires an overnight stop at YVR, and a very long (about 12 hours) connection westbound. Can do it both ways the same day with WS, based on current PR schedules.


User currently offline737-990 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 365 posts, RR: 1
Reply 30, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6649 times:

Quoting Akiestar (Reply 28):
So it turns out that I was proven wrong. According to PAL, MNL-LAS is ending due to poor loads.

Knowing this route was ending I did a quick non-rev trip YVR-LAS last week, my first and maybe only time to fly the A343. Just my luck the flight was completely full out of YVR, I barely got on, I counted 2 open seats although Business Class seemed wide open when I boarded almost at the end. The checkin agent said they normally only have 30-40 local pax between YVR-LAS but that on that day they had almost 200. It was a fun trip but as WA707atMSP said in his trip report the lack of alcohol/beer was disappointing, I've never flown into Vegas without having a few beers on the plane.



Happiest is a man who has his vocation as a hobby
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Phillippine Airlines To Las Vegas Via YVR posted Sat Aug 30 2003 04:26:37 by Spyderz
Singapore Airlines To Las Vegas posted Wed Aug 14 2002 07:34:52 by Bells
Aloha To Begin Las Vegas Service posted Fri Oct 6 2000 00:59:54 by KKMolokai
Philippine Airlines Yvr To Las Vegas posted Fri Mar 5 2004 02:33:08 by CO737800
Olympic Airlines Ends JFK Service. posted Fri Aug 28 2009 19:08:00 by JetBlue777
Commercial Service To North Las Vegas (VGT) posted Sun Apr 8 2007 09:46:04 by RW717
Bmi Service To Las Vegas posted Sun Oct 31 2004 21:54:45 by BmiEMA19
Philippine Airlines service has become better? posted Tue Mar 23 2004 05:55:33 by Diesel33
Philippine Airlines - MNL /YVR/ LAS posted Fri Jan 23 2004 01:04:56 by Lasbagman
Philippine Airlines, International Service posted Mon Nov 11 2002 09:19:22 by Salvation