According to the article, Southwest's lease at DSM goes until June 30..so it seems the 2 flights a day is just a big experiment before the lease ends. It will be interesting to see how the next 9 months goes and how/if WN grows DSM.
I believe WN will be successful in DSM if they take the chance and grow the market. I can't see two flights a day being sustainable for Southwest.
ouboy79 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 4055 posts, RR: 23 Reply 2, posted (8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3862 times:
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1): I think it may last. I can see STL and MCI thrown in for sure, then MKE, DEN, and maybe BNA and HOU.
MCI is too close and WN is trying to get away from routes that are too short. I would plan more for DEN and BWI and possibly HOU, PHX, DAL, and MCO. BNA is a longer shot...and MKE is never going to happen.
Any opinion/comment posted is that of my own and not that of Southwest Airlines Co.
TWA772LR From United States of America, joined Nov 2011, 785 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3856 times:
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 2): MCI is too close and WN is trying to get away from routes that are too short. I would plan more for DEN and BWI and possibly HOU, PHX, DAL, and MCO. BNA is a longer shot...and MKE is never going to happen.
I was just thinking that since this is a new market for them, they would try markets that are somewhat closer geographically to DSM. Thanks for the correction though. Always good to learn something new.
There's nothing like the smell of Jet-A in the morning. It smells like... VICTORY!!!
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14411 posts, RR: 26 Reply 4, posted (8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3842 times:
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1): I can see STL and MCI thrown in for sure, then MKE, DEN, and maybe BNA and HOU.
I think STL could work from a market standpoint, there are enough flights. But I kind of expect to see Denver instead. I don't think that there are many connections you could get from STL that you couldn't accommodate through MDW and gate space in St. Louis could be an issue.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
mtnwest1979 From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 2144 posts, RR: 1 Reply 5, posted (8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3793 times:
Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 2): and MKE is never going to happen.
Exactly, that is what they are replacing from AirTran on Sunday. I would think DSM-DEN will be the next most logical route from DSM. Since you can connect to every Western city WN serves via DEN, no reason to have a n/s to LAS, PHX, etc ,yet anyway.....
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 795 posts, RR: 1 Reply 6, posted (8 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3795 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
I can see STL and MCI thrown in for sure, then MKE, DEN, and maybe BNA and HOU.
I think STL could work from a market standpoint, there are enough flights. But I kind of expect to see Denver instead. I don't think that there are many connections you could get from STL that you couldn't accommodate through MDW and gate space in St. Louis could be an issue.
I agree about DEN. MDW isn't convenient for west-coast connections from DSM. They could add another flight to MDW and maybe twice daily to DEN and then I think DSM will be sustainable for WN. Besides that, I could see STL, PHX, LAS, and maybe MCO..over several years of course. Assuming Southwest is around beyond next June.
wnflyguy From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2011, 373 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3698 times:
If DSM works out I can see only about 6 flts total.
3 MDW, 2 STL and 1 DEN.
....................06:00 MDW
....................07:00 STL
MDW 10:00..10:30 MDW
STL 12:00...12:30 DEN
MDW 14:30..15:00 STL
DEN 16:30...17:00 MDW
STL 22:00..................
MDW 22:30..............
Wnfg
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 10, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3383 times:
MDW gets you everything that STL would (except DAL),
And DCA for the time being.
However even though I live in STL I don't see much need for DSM-STL right now. I tend to agree with the above posters that IF DSM is kept around after the lease expires DEN/LAS/PHX are more likely than STL. Even a BWI or a couple of Florida flights before STL, but if I'm proven wrong about DSM-STL I wont complain.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21290 posts, RR: 19 Reply 11, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3358 times:
Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 10): I tend to agree with the above posters that IF DSM is kept around after the lease expires DEN/LAS/PHX are more likely than STL. Even a BWI or a couple of Florida flights before STL, but if I'm proven wrong about DSM-STL I wont complain.
I don't know that DSM really needs LAS or PHX if it gets DEN. That said, I do think that BWI and STL make sense. STL is likely to be a bigger local market, it's a shorter flight and it gives access to DAL and DCA that BNA does not (for now).
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
OzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4684 posts, RR: 23 Reply 12, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3320 times:
I don't know that DSM really needs LAS or PHX if it gets DEN. That said, I do think that BWI and STL make sense. STL is likely to be a bigger local market, it's a shorter flight and it gives access to DAL and DCA that BNA does not (for now).
The reason I suggested LAS/PHX is the local markets plus the added bonus of some connecting opportunities. If WN goes to DEN with say 4 dailies then the "need" for LAS and PHX is basically eliminated. 2 dailies to DEN then LAS and PHX become more viable as O&D markets on their own merits plus the bonus of additional connections.
OMA, for example, with a larger local market to STL has been 2 daily for years. I would see a 3rd daily to MDW before one or two STL flights. Again, just conjecture on my part and would gladly be proven wrong if DSM-STL comes to pass.
The 717 would have been a good a/c to tie DSM with STL but that option is out.
Joeljack From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 876 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3312 times:
I really hope this experiment doesn't work out!! I'm a loyal UA flyer living in DSM. UA used to fly 6x daily (3 to 4 on 757's) from OMA-DEN and I'd fly this route to connect about once a month. Southwest started flying this route, ran the price down from a $220-$250 average before WN to less than $100 right after WN. Within a year, UA reduced to 4x RJ's and 1x mainline (no 757's to be seen anymore either). This drastic reduction in seats on OMA-DEN on UA has made ticket prices sky rocket to the west coast from this area!!! This killed UA in OMA. The same thing will happen to DSM if WN makes its. UA is currently flying 2x daily mainline DSM-DEN + 3x daily RJ's...with reasonable prices to the west coast from DSM, much cheaper than OMA now!! If WN is successful and starts DSM-DEN, say good by to 50% of UA's seats from DSM within 1-2 years. With it will come sky high costs to the west coast from DSM. (Note WN is not cheap to the west coast, consistently fares over $500 from OMA). To note, I just flew DSM-LAX for $220 from DSM on UA. From OMA is was $525...this is very consistent with what I've been seening over the past year.
For everyone's long term benefit, I really hope WN doesn't make it here!!
Regarding the article, the airport director doesn't get it at all. Although I was on his side a one point, until I saw what WN did to UA on the DEN-OMA route and what happened to OMA-west coast prices!!!...bad news bears!!!
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21290 posts, RR: 19 Reply 14, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3295 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 13): With it will come sky high costs to the west coast from DSM. (Note WN is not cheap to the west coast, consistently fares over $500 from OMA).
With even a little bit of advance purchase, that's simply not true. Next week (out Monday, back Thursday), I see gobs of ~$300 OMA-LAX/SEA/SAN tickets,
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
According to the article, Southwest's lease at DSM goes until June 30..so it seems the 2 flights a day is just a big experiment before the lease ends. It will be interesting to see how the next 9 months goes and how/if WN grows DSM.
Excellent article, thanks for sharing. Didn't realize there was only 9 months to prove good results!
DSM-MDW hasn't been flown since March of 2005, when C8 flew Saabs to MDW under the TZ connection brand. Should be a nice mix of O&D and connections for WN.
A lot of route discussions in previous posts on new routes. I agree that DEN is probably the next most likely to be announced (if or when). Plenty of lift on DEN-DSM right now (UA is showing 3x 320 1x CRJ on Sept. 30, plus F9 2x E190 during the week), but the connectivity of DEN, especially to DSM top destinations (including PHX/LAS) is worth something. I don't know that there is room for all three though, and if Southwest was to start service F9 would be the one to drop. DSM to STL hasn't been flown since AA connection flew it several years ago (and AA mainline for a period after TWA flew MD80s DSM-STL). DSM-SFB/LAS/PHX are covered by G4 right now, and there probably isn't room for both airlines non-stop. BNA/MKE are very unlikely.
There has been quite the raise in lift to DSM this year too with AA and DL mainline this year along with the still relatively new DSM-CLT service. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. OMA, and to a nominal amount MCI, will probably see less passengers driving from DSM to fly Southwest Airlines.
Quoting b757capt (Reply 9): Always wondered if DSM-BWI would work?
Didnt access air try something east coast like BWI?
Currently Republic is flying E170's on DCA-DSM, so the market is some what well covered. Most every thing that can be covered connection wise in BWI can be covered out of MDW any ways.
Access Air did fly to LGA. They announced some type of Washington service at some point I believe, but I don't know if it got off the ground or to which airport.
dbo861 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 795 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3125 times:
Quoting iowaman (Reply 15): A lot of route discussions in previous posts on new routes. I agree that DEN is probably the next most likely to be announced (if or when). Plenty of lift on DEN-DSM right now (UA is showing 3x 320 1x CRJ on Sept. 30, plus F9 2x E190 during the week), but the connectivity of DEN, especially to DSM top destinations (including PHX/LAS) is worth something. I don't know that there is room for all three though, and if Southwest was to start service F9 would be the one to drop. DSM to STL hasn't been flown since AA connection flew it several years ago (and AA mainline for a period after TWA flew MD80s DSM-STL). DSM-SFB/LAS/PHX are covered by G4 right now, and there probably isn't room for both airlines non-stop. BNA/MKE are very unlikely.
F9 is going to once daily DSM-DEN early next year. They'll drop this route as soon as WN announces DSM-DEN.
As for DSM-SFB/LAS, G4 isn't a threat to WN either. Orlando and LAS are two very big destinations and G4 doesn't even operate these flights daily. G4 doesn't want to compete against WN on these routes, and would drop them in a heartbeat (are there ANY routes that G4 competes against WN?)
DSM-PHX is huge, and has been twice daily CRJs/CR9s for several years. I have heard (albeit on a.net) that the only reason US hasn't gone mainline on this route is because of contractual reasons..not being able to operate mainline flights to an express ran station. I could see US and WN co-existing on this route, maybe once daily DSM-PHX on each airline. They both operate hubs at PHX, but the snowbird and winter golf traffic would alone would make this route work for much of the year.
DSM-STL has always been offered multiple times daily, and the only reason the route was dropped in 2010 was because American was closing the hub. DSM was one of the last spoke cities flown from STL. As the article pointed out, the 5 hour drive is quicker than making a connection in Chicago. It would generate it's own traffic, as well as offer more direct connections for southern destinations, maybe relieving WN of needing to operate an additional DSM-MDW flight.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4114 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3068 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 16): (are there ANY routes that G4 competes against WN?)
LAS-BOI might be the only one completely head to head. There are many examples of flights such as IWA-DEN, IWA-OAK, SFB-CMH, and maybe even flights such as PHX/LAS/OAK - BLI and LAS-OGD that could probably be argued as competition.
Quoting dbo861 (Reply 16): F9 is going to once daily DSM-DEN early next year
Wow, quite the decline in capacity. I flew DSM-DEN last year on F9 and IIRC it was on an Airbus.
airliner371 From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 887 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3052 times:
Quoting Joeljack (Reply 13): For everyone's long term benefit, I really hope WN doesn't make it here!!
While everything you said is true, you missed the part where WN also expanded OMA. Without WN, OMA is almost nothing. So yes, seats may be down on the DEN route but OMA is what it is because of WN and DSM will do much better just like OMA with WN.
Cubsrule From United States of America, joined May 2004, 21290 posts, RR: 19 Reply 20, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3021 times:
Quoting mariner (Reply 19): Depending on how it does this season, DSM-CUN might stay (it's Frontier flying for Apple) but I don't know if Frontier will make it scheduled.
Mariner, this is a dumb question, but does the Apple contract permit F9 to make whatever Apple flights it wants scheduled, or how does that work?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
mariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 22871 posts, RR: 87 Reply 21, posted (8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3008 times:
Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 20): Mariner, this is a dumb question, but does the Apple contract permit F9 to make whatever Apple flights it wants scheduled, or how does that work?
Basically - yes, at least according to BB when the contract was first signed. Generally, Frontier has limited seats assigned to them.
So Frontier, which doesn't otherwise serve CVG, offers (scheduled) seats on CVG-CUN and CVG-PUJ, and both are on the route map.
It is a major reason why Frontier is moving from CAK to CLE - CLE-CUN/PUJ are also offered by Frontier.
The surprise was DSM-CUN because DSM doesn't have FIS. So the routing is DSM-CUN-STL-DSM.
iowaman From United States of America, joined May 2004, 4114 posts, RR: 7 Reply 22, posted (8 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2613 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
KCRG ABC TV-9 in Cedar Rapids had an interesting story on the top news. DEN however is probably not the best example to use as an example due to the fact F9 was/is probably the most influential in bringing DSM-DEN fares down:
Quote:
Central Iowa is just hours away from one of the most highly anticipated transportation events that will bring lower airfares. Fares, in fact, are already much cheaper.
Quote:
"One of our employees was looking at a fare to Denver, maybe a year or two years ago maybe in the $600 or $700 range, (now) there's a round trip for $177," Smithey said.
Also of interest:
Quote:
Airport administrators also hope Southwest will add additional routes to and from Des Moines.
"A good one for us would possibly be Las Vegas, perhaps St. Louis, which would go through the south," Smithey said. "They don't operate hubs and spokes, but their route system takes you about anywhere you want to go."
At 259 miles DSM-STL would be one of the shortest routes in the system. Southwest has been cutting shorthauls lately, but who knows. Today is the last day for FL 717's to MKE out of DSM, which also of course brings an end for non-stop service from Des Moines to Milwaukee. This route was also served for quite a long time by YX, and Midwest connect. I believe OO CRJ service was towards the end and more suited for the amount of paseengers between the two.
"Citrus" 323 was the last flight out of DSM and left this morning:
For anyone interested in DSM monthly and yearly passenger stats with a nice break down followed by a pie chart on the last page here is a nice pdf file:
UA is barely the market leader at 28%, followed by DL at 27% and AA at 17%. It shows Southwest (Air Tran) at just 4%, but empty 717's don't add much to the mix I suppose.
According to it's start-up application filed with the DOT, it intended to add both DCA and SFO to its route map once it's fleet numbered 6 aircraft and the routes would have included DSM nonstop to DCA and SFO.
Sorry... probably more than you wanted to know.
My opinions are my own. They are not representative of my employer, my union or my co-workers. They are all mine.
25 Cubsrule: WN has gobs of shorter routes, including STL-MDW/MCI/SDF.
26 airliner371: Southwest ferry flight is on its way to DSM. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA8725
27 Bobloblaw: That's your problem, youre loyal to one airline. Your entire post is very bizarre. Youre suggesting that WN will actually cause fares from DSM to inc
28 airliner371: I think your choice to use the word bizarre is smart and true. Bizarre is what his post is. Des Moines is much better off with SWA then without SWA,
29 iowaman: Any pictures you are willing to share? Very interesting thanks for sharing! Southwest 8725 is currently flying around the city at 4,000 feet, current
30 airliner371: Southwest ferry flight arrived. Check the DSM Facebook page, someone posted a picture.
31 nssd70: Here's the last Airtran Flight to leave from DSM. Doug
32 evanbu: I'm not sure that that is the WN flight you're looking for. Texas Tech is flying to LBB from DSM tonight.
33 dbo861: So maybe they could do LAS and/or PHX instead of DEN. As you stated, UA and F9 have DSM-DEN very well covered, and if it's a western hub WN needs fro
34 iowaman: SWA8614 also arrived in DSM last night from DAL: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/SWA8614 I'd also rather see STL or LAS served initially than PHX
35 yvphx: I have flown on US from PHX-DSM several times on both CR9's and 2's. Each of those flights I have been on are extremely full (around 90%+). Having bee
36 iowaman: For what it's worth, flightaware shows PHX-DSM running at around 85% load-factor, and before F9, UA was running close to 90% at times on DEN-DSM. Iro
37 dbo861: I didn't know flight aware shows load factors. I'm curious how accurate it is.
38 iowaman: Me too. It shows it's in Beta. They claim it is from flown itineraries provided by the airlines on a regular basis but with personal information remo
39 mariner: Based on the ones I've checked, it isn't accurate at all for a specific flight - it gives the 12 month average of load factor - a rear view indicator
40 ScottB: It's probably based on the T-100 domestic segment data from DOT. You can actually download the data for yourself from transtats.bts.gov
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