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Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats?  
User currently offlineAirCalSNA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 341 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20243 times:

I'm curious what you industry insiders think about the logic of what appears to be an intentional disruption of AA's operations by its employees. Now that AA is in bankruptcy court, both the court and creditors hold the real power, not management. And the court and creditors have a much lower stake in the continued operation of AA as a going concern than management does. Aren't AA employees basically telling the court and creditors to give up on AA by creating dysfunction?

132 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineaacun From Mexico, joined Jan 2004, 537 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20247 times:
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I think you should rephrase your topic and not generalize. Its only the pilots who are at dispute with the airline right now.

User currently offlineAcey559 From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 1533 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 20225 times:

I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty at the company that aren't happy, the pilots are just the ones that are making the news.

User currently offlineCIDFlyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2310 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20085 times:

I'm flying AA later this week and I will be none too happy if my flights are disrupted and will have no sympathy for the pilots. No reason to take it out on the customer, If I tried screwing over customers in my job I wouldnt have a job plain and simple.

User currently offlinepu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 699 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20086 times:

I for one think the pilots have a lot of balls and they have my respect.

Management at AMR sees the employees more and more as an entry on a spreadsheet* and no more contributory to their success than other cost centers like printer ink or the electric bill. This is what MBA thinking gets you, the complete inability to account for intangible human factors in corporate success.

I wish more stock owners and employees would take the pilots' course and challenge ingrained management.

Pu

* Insofar as the future AMR has real employees....check out the American Eagle hiring page, virtually all the AA groundstaff foing forward will be minimum wage, non-benefit-holding staff in every station. Eagle becomes a non-flying ground handler and spun off, meanwhile any AA airport employee gets rapidly fired, or offered a new $7 / hour job with Eagle.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 5, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 20027 times:

Quoting CIDFlyer (Reply 3):

I'm flying AA later this week and I will be none too happy if my flights are disrupted and will have no sympathy for the pilots. No reason to take it out on the customer, If I tried screwing over customers in my job I wouldnt have a job plain and simple.

It would behoove you to not assume, then. The airline is beyond critically understaffed with no action by management. Most cancellations are being done at least the day prior, and they just pink slipped a major portion of the work force of mechanics.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19922 times:

I think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent. I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots. One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract. Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules). So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money and the passengers are now thrown into a battle that was previously staged bhind the scenes.

So, long story short the pilots and management are both cutting their own throats. Each side hoping to cut just deep enough without bleeding out!


User currently offlineAirCalSNA From United States of America, joined Mar 2010, 341 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19803 times:

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent. I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots. One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract. Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules). So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money and the passengers are now thrown into a battle that was previously staged bhind the scenes.

So, long story short the pilots and management are both cutting their own throats. Each side hoping to cut just deep enough without bleeding out!

Interesting. So it's basically a game of chicken, with the entire company at stake. And to clarify ... I'm not criticizing either side, who both seem to have valid points. I'm really focusing on the potential of work disruptions in the context of bankruptcy to destroy the entire company. I don't think I've ever heard of this happening where an airline is in bankruptcy before.


User currently offlineQANTASvJet From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2012, 78 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19801 times:

Are they seeking to cut their own throats or the throat of the airline as a whole? Are they trying to create the perception that AA is so dysfunctional that it's not worth the bother of a reverse take-over? If they think that will save their jobs they are completely deluded. Meanwhile the fat cats who run the unions will be seeing the cash roll in.

User currently offlinecommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11642 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19804 times:

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 5):
The airline is beyond critically understaffed with no action by management.

... and yet that "critically understaffed" operation was managing 75%+ on-time mere weeks ago. So besides the somewhat demoralizing and disincentivizing effect of layoffs for a few thousand mechanics, which I can see, what else could possibly explain the change?

  

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
I think management is just as responsible for what is going on as the pilots.
It was no secret that the pilots were not going to rollover and just accept unilateral cuts, management's insistance ongoing that route brought upon an expected response. If management didn't expect or quite frankly something even mre drastic they are incompetent.

I'm not sure if I would say management is "just as responsible," but management did handle this stupidly. On balance, while I see the argument that just implementing the TA would have essentially rewarded the pilots for voting no, it was stupid at this juncture to further inflame an already volatile situation by imposing (for the most part) the term sheet, instead. And, worst of all, it was insanely stupid for the company to roll out proposed changes, many of which were based on the less severe TA, and then days later backtrack and instead opt to impose primarily the harsher term sheet terms instead. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
I believe that management wasexpecting the response and are prepared to try and outlast the pilots.

Agreed.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
One side is gong to have to blink because the airline will fail if they do not reach terms on a new contract.

Agreed. As another poster said repeatedly - mutually assured destruction.

Much as these pilots might like to claim that AMR's proposals are so awful that they have nothing left to lose, the reality is that many of AA's pilots are middle-aged or at the end of their career, and as such many would likely find it difficult to fully recoup the pay, vacation and benefits lost if they had to start over now at another carrier. As such, there is definitely incentive for them to see AMR continue to exist. And the incentive for AMR management to keep the company a going concern is self-evident.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
Management tried to gain the upperhand with leverage by getting the existing contract thrown out, now the pilots are trying to regain the leverag by operating strictly by the book (which basically counteracts any efficicency gains AA gotfrom throwing the previous work rules).

Yes.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 6):
So they are pretty muh where they were before bankruptcy except pilots are making less money and the airline is making less money

Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the moment from some obligations it will at some point have to settle and/or pay, but nonetheless the company's finances have clearly turned around. They are of course far from where they need to be, but AMR's recent monthly operating reports have shown a consistent trend of improving income and cashflow performance, and leading or near-industry-leading unit revenue growth. And all of that was before the company had yet restructured its union contracts, which were one of the single most critical elements to transforming AA into a viable competitor.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25437 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 19792 times:

Listen the company decided to take the nuclear option. They vaporized the pilot contract, and by the slimmest margin were able to get the mechanics to agree to a revised one.

In the mean time, AA has shown the door to 1,700 mechanics, reduced parts inventories, and admittedly in their own planning are running an operation that was short of crews to begin with and needed volunteers and goodwill to get the holes covered.

Add this up, I'm not surprised the operation if falling apart. There are less mechanics, and the good will of pilots to cover the scheduling holes is lost. In the mean time, you have the FAA doing its heightened surveillance of the airline and voila here we are.

While yes the previous CBA's might have certainly been burdensome, taking the nuclear option was the companies, and now it must deal with the fall out.

[Edited 2012-09-24 17:10:47]


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently onlineStitch From United States of America, joined Jul 2005, 31012 posts, RR: 86
Reply 11, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19694 times:
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United's pilots did the same thing with "The Summer of Hell" back in 2000 and a decade later there were customers still bitter about it (and now flying AA - doh!).

User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8548 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19666 times:

The airline was basically run by the pilots. Arpey was doing the pilots bidding until the last moment when it was clear AA is no longer viable with its current headcount and wage structure.

What needs to change (whether professional pilots or professional corporate types are in charge) is the wage structure, and headcount and work rules. AMR pilots can't rewrite the rules of math. The industry is quite healthy and able to support them. But it IS a marketplace in the end. Customers DO have plenty of options with or without AMR and those particular pilots who work there.

Still. This is a natural stage AA is going through during its restructuring process. Often labor believes they are owed something, even when the business is bankrupt. Morally I can't imagine "what" they believe they are owed. Bankruptcy itself appears to make that line of thinking ludicrous on its face. But being ludicrous won't stop them.


User currently offlineXFSUgimpLB41X From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 4200 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19664 times:

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):

... and yet that "critically understaffed" operation was managing 75%+ on-time mere weeks ago. So besides the somewhat demoralizing and disincentivizing effect of layoffs for a few thousand mechanics, which I can see, what else could possibly explain the change?

I guess that's what happens when you screw your employees. How motivated would you feel? I mean, they could fire them all... oh, wait.



Chicks dig winglets.
User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19665 times:

Quoting aacun (Reply 1):
Its only the pilots who are at dispute with the airline right now.

Incorrect. The pilots may be the only group without a contract, and, other employee groups are dissatisfied and witholding enthusiasm.

Quoting Acey559 (Reply 2):
I wouldn't agree with that. There are plenty at the company that aren't happy, the pilots are just the ones that are making the news.

True.


I still have to ask the question from time to time. Why were AA management receiving bonuses (Yes, I know, now worthless) over the last few years, to operate the company in an unprofitable way?
Why is the behavior of AA mangement not given the same scrutiny of the alleged actions of the pilots, mechanics, or others?

[Edited 2012-09-24 17:30:07]


I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineqqflyboy From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 2283 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19609 times:

Give this a read from an AA pilot. It's interesting and may shed some more light on the subject at hand:

http://riskreportonline.com/2012/09/...ed-reporting-on-american-airlines/



The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
User currently offlineklkla From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 933 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19578 times:

In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.


User currently offlineSPREE34 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 2248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19520 times:

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.

BRAVO! Well said!



I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7915 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19448 times:

Quoting AirCalSNA (Thread starter):
I'm curious what you industry insiders

LOL don't get anyone's egos too boosted.

I'll keep my opinion short. Yes, AA's management sucks and AA pilots have a right to be pissed. I think they're going about it the total wrong way. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Don't piss off the passengers... they really don't care about your problems, they just want to get to their destination. You're screwing yourself and your company more than management IMO



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19422 times:

The pilots will not be cutting their own throats if something goes down in the future. It will truly be a murder suicide between AA management and the Pilots.



The airline was basically run by the pilots. Arpey was doing the pilots bidding until the last moment when it was clear AA is no longer viable with its current headcount and wage structure.[/quote]


Whaaaaaaat?


User currently offlineXT6Wagon From United States of America, joined Feb 2007, 3409 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19372 times:

Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 19):
Whaaaaaaat?

Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Course the Pilots kept saying no to all this.
Even funnier when Pilots bitched about not having enough hours at the same time they (by way of the union) were preventing AA from giving them more.


User currently offlineripcordd From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1168 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19359 times:

If the employees stick together and follow the company rules by the book the operation sinks. Look at it this way you have worked for a company for 20 years saving your sick time for that just in case sickness happens and you have built up 500-700 hrs of sick time and now the company is going to go back all those 20 years you have saved your sick time and take 25% back from you. Do you think you would cash some out before you loose 25%

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7915 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 19359 times:

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 20):
Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Um, do you have any idea how labor relations work???? Geez, I'm usually more pro-management and think the AA pilots here (as well as management) are acting up, but really??



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 19337 times:

[quote=XT6Wagon,reply=20]Well, AA management had to run to the pilots and asking "Mommy, Can I have some new planes?". "Mommy, Can I fly to new places?" "Mommy, Can you get your lazy ass off the couch and work as much as the other mommies?"

Again, Whaaaaaat? What planet are you on. We had nothing to say about the new planes. They want to fly somewhere, fine go there. And as far as mommy this and mommy that, the last thing AA management would ever do is ask anyone for permission or advice. The executives would all walk straight off a cliff before they would ever ask for directions.

The only time we had a major discussion, was for the ultra long haul routes. They were unprecedented and were starting due to the uber long range aircraft coming. ALL airlines were negotiating the same thing. There were many fatigue and safety issues involved. I know, fatigue and safety are words we pilots use to cover up our intent to screw everyone.

I can only guess you have been working here longer than me and have much more insight than I do! And with my having close to 30 years seniority, you must be VERY senior.


User currently offlineLAXtoATL From United States of America, joined Oct 2009, 1596 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 12 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 19313 times:

Quoting AirCalSNA (Reply 7):
Interesting. So it's basically a game of chicken, with the entire company at stake.

That's how I see it.

Quoting commavia (Reply 9):
Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the moment from some obligations it will at some point have to settle and/or pay, but nonetheless the company's finances have clearly turned around. They are of course far from where they need to be, but AMR's recent monthly operating reports have shown a consistent trend of improving income and cashflow performance, and leading or near-industry-leading unit revenue growth. And all of that was before the company had yet restructured its union contracts, which were one of the single most critical elements to transforming AA into a viable competitor.

I know. That is why I didnt use profit. They are definitely more profitable right now (granted a lot of expenses are not being accounted for right now). I used them term making less money because anytime you have to cancel flights and rebook passengers the airline is losing money on that transaction as well as the loss revenue from passengers that book away because of the fear of disruptions. So regardless of how the financial picture has turned around, the airline is still losing money as a result of the current disruption to operation.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 12):
Bankruptcy itself appears to make that line of thinking ludicrous on its face.

Well, not exactly. While part of the bankruptcy code, a chapter 11 filing is a 'restructuring' not an actual 'bankruptcy'.
Businesses file chapter 11 as a means to avoid becoming bankrupt. Not saying AA didn't need to file, I thought they should have done it sooner and I still do, but they are not bankrupt, so you cant just use that term to justify someone's response to the current situation as it doesnt apply in the technical sense.

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
In all fariness this thread title could read "Are AA Management Cutting Their Own Throats?" as easily as "Are AA Employees Cutting Their Own Throats? ".

  

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
Both sides are at fault but it's the responsibilty of management to motivate their employees and have them want to succeed. AA management has failed miserably at this task.

     

Quoting klkla (Reply 16):
From the day they filed bankruptcy they should have brougt in a completely new management team instead of firing one guy (Arpey) and moving the old guard up a notch. They seriously needed (and still need) a new CEO from outside the company to guide threm through the BK process.

We don't know what the actual end game is. So it is hard to say they should have cleaned house. If merger is the goal, why bother with the added time and cost to bring in new management? Also continuity and familiarity can speed up certain aspects of the restructuring and still replace them when it is over. I agree that AA management desperately needed an overhaul but I dont know if doing so after filing was the best move (several years ago to try and avoid a filing would have been a great idea in my mind), I will say that if AA emerges as a stand alone carrier that management certainly needs an overhaul!


25 commavia : Interesting, considering that it was the position of many less than a year ago that AA would be taking delivery of jets that it could not crew becaus
26 aluminumtubing : The issue was only with the 787's. There was not pay rate negotiated percee. Buy quite frankly, it was a pressure tactic by the company to hold that o
27 XFSUgimpLB41X : commavia- DL flies some of the longest ULR routes in the world, and in contrast our company came to us and negotiated excellent provisions for the ope
28 2175301 : Please enlighten me which other major corporations exist that do not treat the vast majority of their employees and a number. This isn't a mom &
29 9252fly : Where is Doug Parker in all of this and I wonder what he's thinking?
30 Transpac787 : I'm not disputing the point that DL is generally very good in providing proper crew rest facilities - but to argue semantics, this is incorrect. They
31 jfklganyc : "Correction: AMR in the last several months has been making more money than at any other time in years. It is true that the company is shielded at the
32 XFSUgimpLB41X : Correct- NW did not utilize them for over 12 flying (why, I'm not sure). There was quite a bit of negotiating and back and forth, though, to get an a
33 thegoldenargosy : I feel like this could be my generation's Eastern, only instead of the rampers its the pilots sinking the ship.
34 aluminumtubing : Here we go again. It's the pilots sinking the ship. It is so far more complicated than that. It takes both a hole (AA management) and water (the pilo
35 XFSUgimpLB41X : You've got to be kidding...
36 Post contains images yellowtail : Probably off talking to DL about how much he is going to sell them MIA for when he takes over AA. See other active thread
37 ckfred : First of all, the current shareholders will not be the shareholders of AMR, when it exits bankruptcy. As is the case with 99% of Chapter 7 filings, s
38 Post contains links LAXintl : And lo and behold, AA wrote to APA this afternoon stating they would like to re-engage in negotiations. APA board is to meet on Wednesday to offer a r
39 Byrdluvs747 : Yawn. More "Back to 2003" union drivel.
40 B377 : The problem with the current AA pilot and AA management fiasco is that neither side is willing to make the necessary actions to bring this to a close.
41 XFSUgimpLB41X : You're kidding, right? A 6 year concessionary contract? In an environment where other airlines that pay considerably more than them are printing mone
42 blueflyer : What with the bad blood between the sides, I'm wondering whether the pilots and management were far apart when management's final best offer was rejec
43 XFSUgimpLB41X : They were extremely far apart. Mgmt wanted to take absolutely anything they could get, unfortunately the bk court rules exclusively in their favor- t
44 aa777lvr : First, let me say I'm heartbroken at what is happening at AA. I remember how proud I was to say I worked for American Airlines only a few years ago. H
45 Post contains images aluminumtubing : Apparently 2/3 of the pilots did not have your wise counsel before they voted it down.
46 xdlx : A 2yr contract amendable at the 18mo mark according to conditions.... sounds more like it!
47 aluminumtubing : Along with protocols built in to mirror a floating industry average.
48 norcal : The difference is now there is no contract so there is possibly no union protection. AMR can fire any pilot they want to with justification. Things l
49 Md88Captain : The latest word this morning is that AMR has asked APA to come back to the table and negotiate. It will probably be a new thread shortly.
50 N737AA : True but in the end the customer see's this as an employee action, they don't really care which group But they are the ones causing the disruption, t
51 aluminumtubing : Horse droppings! Right now, we can fly to 83 hours a month without any punitive increases with the LBFO. 83 hours X 12= 996 Hours per year. WIth many
52 ROSWELL41 : As an AA mechanic, I'm sure you are well versed in flying ultra long haul routes. I'm not sure what you know about commuting either. Perhaps you'll b
53 ckfred : I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Members of the APA were misguided in voting against the T/A. Now, if the T/A offered no ownership in the n
54 aluminumtubing : The UCC has reaffirmed their commitment of accepting a 13.5% ownership stake if an agreement is reached "promptly".
55 BigJKU : Is it possible that the market rate for such jobs is simply $7 an hour? I don't see what the problem is here. If the job can be staffed and performed
56 ROSWELL41 : From speaking with some AA pilots, the language in the LBFO regarding the equity stake appears to be non-standard contract language. It contains some
57 gegarrenton : Still are.
58 gegarrenton : I don't think that AA is the party not in touch with reality. I think that's a wife's job requirement.
59 aluminumtubing : Opinions are like noses, everyone has one. If one was honest, I think the fair and reasonable unbiased opinion is that BOTH sides are lacking in the
60 gegarrenton : Fair enough.
61 jfklganyc : So if you work for a regional (let's say Eagle for example) and they close the BOS E145 base with a months notice and you transfer to LGA. And then d
62 Post contains images AirCalSNA : Yep, that was the turning point for me in hating United.
63 Post contains images dashman : Well presented and I believe accurate summary of the facts As an frequent Fox watcher they are notorious for this kind of reporting. I honestly belie
64 EXMEMWIDGET : Many pilots commute to work. That's one plus to being a pilot or a flight attendant. You don't have to live in the city where you are based if you do
65 Post contains links gegarrenton : I've mentioned elsewhere, there is an increasing chance this ends in tears (Chp 7). I gave it only maybe a 5% chance at the outset, but I would revise
66 N737AA : You might be, kuddo's to you. Many only fly the minimum. That's pretty much how it works in this industry, been there, done that, did my time......if
67 davs5032 : I'd wager, that given the nature of the union's relationship with the company itself, it's probably pretty hard for management to get employees to tr
68 135mech : Interesting... People at some McDonald's chains are making that much or MORE just for hiring on... if you are comparing a ramper to a kid that can't
69 ozark1 : I could not agree more. As someone who is on the front line here's what comes into my mind: "You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." Fr
70 pu : Thats exactly my point. The pre-bankruptcy board of directors, allegedly looking after the interests of the stockholders, votes instead to cut the ow
71 Post contains images aluminumtubing : It's safe to say Politicians are not the only slackers. We definitely have some in the pilot ranks as well. Again, it would be disingenuous to not fa
72 RDH3E : False, it helps management turn the company around, helps employees keep their jobs (win), hurts stockholders, and helps creditors get a larger part
73 Byrdluvs747 : I'm normally not a fan of sending jobs overseas, but what would prevent AA from establishing foreign pilot crews/bases like they do with FA's? Does th
74 aluminumtubing : Not sure of the legal issues here. I am not qualified to comment on that. However, I can absolutely assure everyone even remotely interested, that if
75 Byrdluvs747 : I figured the pilots would, but would any union action be legal?
76 commavia : At that point, do you honestly think it would matter? Rather than fantasizing about how to screw people even more than bankruptcy already does, let's
77 aluminumtubing : It wouldn't be a strike. A strike would be illegal. Each and every pilot would quit on the spot. I am a definite middle of the roader, but I would wa
78 JAAlbert : Of all the comments expressed in this thread, this one was the best by far! Hilarious. (I hope your wife isn't an a-net member).
79 aluminumtubing : I probably should learn to keep my sarcasm in check. But, in this twisted airline environment, it helps to be a little twisted.
80 incitatus : What would prevent AA from setting up a domestic subsidiary that flies A319s? And if AA did so and adverstised pilot jobs for that subsidiary, how ma
81 2175301 : As a Mechanical Engineer I once moved 13 times in 10 years instead of staying where I just lost a job; or just moved to a better job opportunity. I k
82 aluminumtubing : Just as I mentioned in my previous two threads. The pilots would shut the airline down instantly.
83 aluminumtubing : As a Mechanical Engineer I once moved 13 times in 10 years instead of staying where I just lost a job; or just moved to a better job opportunity. I k
84 norcal : 1. You must be a US citizen to fly as a pilot for a US airline 2. Foreign countries are recruiting US pilots and paying them a truck load of money to
85 SLCPilot : I think you are wrong. Do you care to quote a reg? Cheers! SLCPilot Ps. I wish you were right. Outsourced pilot labor would hasten our country's inev
86 N737AA : No I have no beef with the individual pilots that I know and work with everyday. As with all work groups there are many that do their job professiona
87 aluminumtubing : I have to disagree that the pilots are doing anything unethical or inappropriate. We are doing what we are paid to to do. And the company, in their v
88 Post contains images RDH3E : Okay, easy there Jesus. Last time I checked if pilots performed miracles in the cockpit everyday we'd have a lot more annointed saints In this case t
89 N737AA : True statement... That is all N737AA
90 incitatus : How do you know what every other pilot is doing?[Edited 2012-09-26 07:19:23]
91 gegarrenton : And this is where we go delirious... There is nothing "vindictive" or "punitive" about what is happening. We also see words like "bloodbath" and "nuc
92 ROSWELL41 : I would say that the government has an enormous amount of 'control' over airline unions due to the Railway Labor Act. The result has been the opposit
93 RDH3E : They support Unions in general, not just airline unions. The CTU teachers should have been told to get back to work or get lost. IL is one of only 11
94 Coronado : Pilots have tremendous qualifications, education and training wise. Google the term ILWU wages and we can talk about a possible overpaid workforce he
95 aluminumtubing : First off, that was sarcasm. It doesn't take great Biblical knowledge to know that God was not a pilot. Actually, I am quite humble. I thank God each
96 incitatus : Oh no, absolutely it wouldn't. If airline unions had more power to drive compensation up, United, Delta and American would have already been driven o
97 MaverickM11 : Walmart and merchandisers would get rid of them in an instant if they could, and speed, accuracy, and consistency would improve as much as costs woul
98 jfk777 : The pilots at AA have or had friends at Eastern and Pan AM, where are those peole now ? Enjoying a less then perect retirement. The AA pillots need to
99 RDH3E : Notice I never referenced the pilots union, although that is what the discussion is about. Also view Mainline wages vis-a-vis regional wages. Pilots
100 gegarrenton : I heard he was a longshoreman.... Fair enough, I respect that. And that is why I think we disagree. I run a smaller business. Personal relationships
101 aluminumtubing : I agree to a point. Personal relationships in a large corporation are totally impossible with the masses. It would obviously be impossible for a CEO
102 gegarrenton : I agree with that. I think we agree on more than we disagree on really. I just don't truly believe there is the emotional component to the top brass
103 Post contains images tugger : Not meaning to pick, and I am sure it is because you feel somewhat embattled on this topic, but he didn't say that at all, he did say: "with proper t
104 Post contains links gegarrenton : From everyone's favorite AA CEO, Bob Crandall. I think it's pretty telling that he says what basically a lot of outsiders say re: the pilot situation
105 Post contains images aluminumtubing : Based on this post, we will just have to AGREE to AGREE!
106 aluminumtubing : I know. My sarcasm tends to get the best of me. I truly don't feel embattled, I am just passionate about this profession. I have very thick skin. I w
107 aluminumtubing : In addition to the old black and white movie where they were flying over the hump, there was the joke that goes back to the DC-4 days. Why do the ste
108 Post contains images gegarrenton : harharhar..... Which routes are you usually on? I would like to be close to divinity one time!
109 aluminumtubing : I would tell you, but I keep some things off of here so I can not be identified just in case. Not that I am paranoid....
110 ROSWELL41 : Again, if the government supports airline unions why not repeal the Railway Labor Act and allow airline unions to work under the National Labor Relat
111 MaverickM11 : And do what??? What would appease the APA at this point that wouldn't simultaneously destroy the company? They sure have--would the APA be willing to
112 aluminumtubing : We just received an email from APA after todays board of directors meeting ended. They formally stated they are willing to reengage the company with t
113 commavia : As do I. The company has to move off not just the 1113 terms now imposed, but also the LBFO. I think there are a few major improvements that would mo
114 gegarrenton : There is a thread over on FlyerTalk right now where a guy is basically live blogging a SFO-DFW flight where the Captain has apparently called in MX on
115 flyfree727 : Well, one things for sure. Those that are "avaition obsessed," are on cloud 9 with all the action going on. At least it gives them something to "live
116 incitatus : There is no such a thing as "professionals have a price". There a is labor market. Train too many pilots and pay can converge to minimum wage. That w
117 Post contains links blueflyer : If it wasn't so serious, it would be getting hilarious. On the one hand, AA asks APA to resume negotiations, and right around the time the union agree
118 B377 : It's about time. There are many, though not all AA pilots are acting totally in a unprofessional manner. Todays action by a pilot in SFO on a afterno
119 gegarrenton : That is certainly true! I am not much on blogging, but it does make entertaining reading. Too bad it happens to be depict todays sad state of affairs
120 Md88Captain : I haven't been following the "minute by minute" blogger drama on Flyertalk referenced by B377, but I've been involved in many rolling maintenance dela
121 norcal : I know every time I got to training I must prove I'm a US citizen. Every job application I've ever filled out in this industry requires me to prove I
122 sflaflight : True. I agree with Md88 captain. Almost always when an aircraft comes from hanger it is never ready for flight. Everyone one makes remarks about stupi
123 ckfred : How much is management getting? I've suggested that between APA, APFA, and TWU, they will have nearly 20% of the company. Find some creditors/future
124 DeltaMD90 : That's what's killing me. You guys* are professional aviators, in one of the top tier careers, and you all* are acting like spoiled brats. Kinda unre
125 2175301 : This is the correct requirement; and US citizens are automatically authorized to work in the US. Foreign nationals can get permission to work in the
126 N737AA : AA's fleet is probably one of the best maintained in the industry, your statement is hogwash. One of the reasons AA's costs are higher than our peers
127 aluminumtubing : I put this on a different thread and meant to place it here. Remember, I am just the messenger and currently I am unarmed. Apparently after the "lette
128 B377 : Apparently Ms. Lynn's letter to the APA struck a nerve. Here is their statements to the union membership: https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/AboutAP
129 N737AA : The Judge ruled on the contract and that's that, why wouldn't the terms be acted upon immediately where able. The TWU got their new pay implemented i
130 aluminumtubing : I could go into a lot of detail regarding business, human nature, the art of negotiations, status quo,not to mention AA actually showing some restrai
131 flyfree727 : APFA has had NO "improvements" implemented as of today. AA is quickly implementing "concessions", ie work rules, DECREASES in premium pay, etc and ou
132 aluminumtubing : Sad, but true.
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