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Crandall Responds To AA Pilot...Excellent  
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 28740 times:

I thought this was an excellent letter Robert Crandall sent to a pilot who had asked him a question about the current situation at AA.

http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/

196 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1336 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28520 times:

Crandall's letter is flipping brilliant - it needs to be mailed to every single pilot at AA immediately.

User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17481 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28448 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 1):
Crandall's letter is flipping brilliant - it needs to be mailed to every single pilot at AA immediately.

   Along with a CD single of "Man in the mirror".



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28308 times:

Scroll down http://aviationblog.dallasnews.com/ and you'll also see an entry American = Eastern Air Lines commentary by Ray Neidl. Quite interesting.


Senior aerospace analyst Ray Neidl, who’s been around long enough to remember these things, wondered out loud Tuesday whether the American Airlines standoff with pilots is following the path of the Eastern Air Lines’ flight with its unions.

Or, in Neidl’s words in a report out Tuesday from his firm, Maxim Group:

“The dispute with the pilots recalls how the pilots at Eastern Airlines killed the already weakened airline two decades ago in a labor dispute. The unions led by the pilots have strongly indicated that they do not wish to work with the AMR management, which is of concern to begin with. As a result the dispute here seems to now be going beyond economic considerations to the emotional level, which is always dangerous since rationality for all parties can become secondary as was in the case of Eastern.


User currently offlineseatback From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 767 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28191 times:

Quoting timboflier215 (Reply 1):
Crandall's letter is flipping brilliant - it needs to be mailed to every single pilot at AA immediately.

Completely agree!


User currently offlineflyhossd From United States of America, joined Nov 2009, 885 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28076 times:

Quoting seatback (Thread starter):
I thought this was an excellent letter Robert Crandall sent to a pilot who had asked him a question about the current situation at AA.

Would you expect anything different from the former CEO?

What would expect the Chairman of the A.P.A. to say, given the same opportunity or platform?



My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 6, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 28013 times:

I would love to know what his thoughts are in the idea of merging with US. Does he support it or no?


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinetimboflier215 From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 1336 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 27971 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 5):
What would expect the Chairman of the A.P.A. to say, given the same opportunity or platform?

No idea - why don't you write and ask them?


User currently offlineBobloblaw From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1725 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 27978 times:

AA is not EA. EA never made money in deregulation and had frank borman who knew nothing about business.

User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 544 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 27947 times:

Every employee at American should seek out a former EASTERN,PA,BN employee and see how their careers were cut off because of the "us verses them" atitudes. I FULLY expected to have spent my work years at Eastern. I would have had 44 years this year. Instead, I had 25. So think about AA employees, your next job could be revolved around "do you want plastic or paper" Also think about your families!!!!!

User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12142 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 27842 times:

But the pilot's union will reject Bob's letter outright. It doesn't fit their agenda.

User currently offlineB757forever From United States of America, joined May 2010, 401 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27625 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 5):
Would you expect anything different from the former CEO?



No I would not. This is also what I would expect from a rational businessman who has a proven record of building a successful organization. Crandall's assessment is spot on, weakening the company will not advance anyone's agenda.


User currently offlineLAXdude1023 From India, joined Sep 2006, 7598 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27614 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 5):
What would expect the Chairman of the A.P.A. to say, given the same opportunity or platform?

Something outlandish.

Crandalls letter was well thought out and rational.



Stewed...Lewd...Crude...Irreverent...Belligerent
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27576 times:

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 10):

But the pilot's union will reject Bob's letter outright. It doesn't fit their agenda.


Nothing ever seems to please ANY union these days......which is kinda sad.....



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2089 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27501 times:

He actually admits that union relations started to change in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was on his watch. So he has identified that some of the issues go back to his watch. There are a few other comments that whilst not overtly critical of the management team in the 2000s do acknowledge that maybe some decisions made then are not paying off now, i.e. staying out of bankruptcy when the competition did not, management perceived to be taking rewards not available to frontline staff. As an outsider it actually reads as quite balanced.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineMSPNWA From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1943 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27447 times:

Good response by Crandall, but if I were a pilot it probably wouldn't be the answers I'm looking for. The problem (and this is industry-wide) is why pilots are being asked to take such a large hit when their share of the total costs of AA is actually quite small. That's been a source of contention over and over.

User currently offlinegegarrenton From United States of America, joined Aug 2012, 211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27403 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 14):
He actually admits that union relations started to change in the late 1980s/early 1990s, which was on his watch. So he has identified that some of the issues go back to his watch. There are a few other comments that whilst not overtly critical of the management team in the 2000s do acknowledge that maybe some decisions made then are not paying off now, i.e. staying out of bankruptcy when the competition did not, management perceived to be taking rewards not available to frontline staff. As an outsider it actually reads as quite balanced.

I think it's very balanced personally. I also think both sides of the fence will take it completely differently in a way that suits their predefined notions!


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7186 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27177 times:

If I start at the top, why exactly would an AA pilot be writing to Crandall in the first place, what exactly did he expect, a blasting of the current management?
Crandall retired from AA and presumable got a decent separation / retirement package. Management is management, and they stick together unless one is working for another company, example if a hostile takeover is on the way.

As to the specifics of the letter itself, it is basically the same as everywhere else, workers are to do what management says and the company will be fine, we have all heard and understand this party line.

One negative I take from the article which posters in other threads mentioned, is that AA wants to take their employee compensation below that of their competitors so that they can "catch up", so in a nutshell, rather than catching up by running their plan longer, or being agressive or more creative, they have determined that everybody is the same, products and service is the same, AA will not be able to do any better than their competitors so they must have their staff work for less.
Fine and dandy.

Now what happens when DL, UA and others see that AA employee compensation is lower than theirs, AA will be setting the new cmpensation standard which the others must match, and if they are healthier than AA, expect the dance to start again in 2 to 3 years.

How the hell WN was able to be profitable these last few decades is beyond comprehension, if they were an oil company nothing stopped the other's from following suit. WN rates are supposed to be among the highest in the industry, yet they are successfully, can we truly say that the issue is only pay scales / rates?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 27131 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I would love to know what his thoughts are in the idea of merging with US. Does he support it or no?

". . .everyone needs to understand that it’s management’s job to identify and weigh alternatives, and to recommend a course of action."

He might offer you some opinions, but would probably balk at an actual recommendation given that he is not actively dealing with AA.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineTVNWZ From United States of America, joined Feb 2006, 2386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 26921 times:

Quoting flyhossd (Reply 5):

Would you expect anything different from the former CEO?

True. but, what particular point would you take exception with?


User currently offlinealuminumtubing From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 364 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26839 times:

All this arm chair quarterbacking is really mute. The bottom line, is that the pilots are going to do what they are going to do, agree with it or not. It may destroy this airline, I can't argue that. But if management holds their line, it's gonna get bad. Plain and simple.

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26831 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
He might offer you some opinions, but would probably balk at an actual recommendation given that he is not actively dealing with AA.

He wouldn't balk, I dont think. He's no longer at the beck and call of AA, so he has a right to an opinion.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16863 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26649 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
I would love to know what his thoughts are in the idea of merging with US. Does he support it or no?

He mentioned a possible merger a couple times.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineglideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1617 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26187 times:

Brilliant Response. Can't rebut it.   


To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineblueflyer From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 3993 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (1 year 11 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 26156 times:
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Quoting par13del (Reply 17):
As to the specifics of the letter itself, it is basically the same as everywhere else, workers are to do what management says and the company will be fine, we have all heard and understand this party line.

And what is the alternative? Rank-and-file running the company by consensus?



I've got $h*t to do
25 ROSWELL41 : Bottom line is that Horton is no Bob Crandall. I think that is the takeaway from the letter.
26 AirCalSNA : Wow ... so the company is at risk because someone used the words "brick" and "unit," which wasn't respectful? It makes the pilots sound oblivious to t
27 ExL10Mktg : Salary and benefits are only part of the picture. Many of the pilots work rules (which they negotiated for) cost the company tens (if not hundreds) o
28 par13del : Alternative is what is taking place now, just because the inmates don't like their current rulers does not mean that they want to rule. Management is
29 xdlx : One thing I have observed about the "state of mind" of the AA employees. The same denial that was pervasive in PA/BN/EA...etc is alive and well; It w
30 DocLightning : But who is Management supposed to negotiate with? The APA says that there is no job action and that the pilots are doing nothing wrong. YOU have said
31 LDVAviation : What does similarity in mindset have to do with anything? Pan Am eventually failed because they had no credible exit strategy from bankruptcy and bec
32 seatback : I think you're right. I think we can only make a connection from an emotional perspective. AA is far healthier than probably any other airline that e
33 SEPilot : I have long realized that any company that employs me deserves to receive my best efforts to do whatever job I was hired to do. It is in my best inter
34 qqflyboy : This is factually incorrect. Any time a flight time (gate to gate) exceeds eight hours, the FAA requires a relief pilot, as no pilot can be at the co
35 Max Q : These 'unecessary' relief Pilots are their for your safety and mandated by FAA rest requirements. Your 'Featherbedding' statement is completely inapp
36 AAexecplat : The response from Crandall is simply excellent. It's what any sane senior manager would say and how he would rationalize the situation. It is also wha
37 Post contains images AA94 : The pilots need to understand that they are going to need to meet AA management in the middle, and likewise, AA needs to realize that it needs to mee
38 BigJKU : This is pretty silly. Be more aggressive or run your plan longer? You realize there are objective realities in this business and that on the vast maj
39 ckfred : Why? Because a lot of pilots believe that Crandall, despite his run-ins with the unions, was a sharp guy who made AA a growing, profitable business,
40 comorin : I was very impressed with the letter, a great example of clearly communicating ideas in easy to understand terms. Crandall was obviously held in high
41 strfyr51 : Everybody NOT at WN want's to hold WN up as a matter of Example in Pay and compensation when EVEN WN's boss RECENTLY said their costs were getting out
42 EA CO AS : Check your facts; EA posted strong earnings in 1979, and the year prior to the union forcing Borman's hand in the sale to Texas Air, EA was also prof
43 Post contains images EA CO AS : Sorry, but Bob Crandall was spot-on in his assessment of things; he acknowledged that all employees deserve respect and courtesy and that the pilots
44 usdcaguy : What irks me about Crandall's letter is that he states the following: "Since the decisions being made are very important, and will impact every employ
45 JoeCanuck : That was a very lucid, logical, well thought out and presented letter. Agree or disagree....that guy can write. What I don't get is why would anybody
46 EA CO AS : Pretty much, yes. And there's nothing wrong with that; despute what you may believe, while the management and labor work relationship is and should b
47 AAexecplat : You fundamentally misunderstand what he was trying to say....he wasn't arguing against organized labor or that unions should always defer to manageme
48 Post contains images sankaps : Um... Bob Crandall has an MBA too, from Wharton, no less!
49 Post contains images comorin : Thanks but I'm an admirer of Bob Crandall as a leader My problem is that there are certain career paths where leadership is expected; I find with the
50 CosmicCruiser : Just to add a little from the other side and I don't really intend to get very involved in this discussion BUT: I had an FAA Safety Inspector ride my
51 windy95 : Have to agree that it was a brilliant letter.... I love this....This is why I am always telling our work group not to worry about what the others are
52 Mir : Perhaps, but I what you're seeing from the pilots is a vote of no confidence in management. They feel management is steering the ship towards the wat
53 gegarrenton : Yes, that is exactly what it means. Either you agree and move with the company direction, or you quit and do something else. That is how business wor
54 seatback : Appears that Denise Lynn (SVP of HR) sent a letter to the union threatening legal action if the union doesn't stop the slow down. This after hours bef
55 Bobloblaw : Wouldnt matter.
56 SeeTheWorld : When does the UCC (unsecured creditors committee) step in and approve a merger ... with this spat going on and the UCC watching the pie of money shrin
57 gegarrenton : I am pretty certain the merger wheels are already in motion. This action has about zero effect on that.
58 MaverickM11 : She should have done this a lot earlier. The APA has gotten themselves into this position and insist on digging themselves deeper. I'm sure an injunc
59 AAexecplat : First of all, the letter was dispatched BEFORE the unions had told AA about their intent to go back to the table. So does A mgmt now have to be clair
60 AirRyan : I'll tell you one thing for certain, the pilots causing all of these flights to be cancelled does nothing productive and only hurts everyone at the co
61 DocLightning : Does this action improve matters for them? It doesn't. When the ship is headed towards the waterfall, sinking the ship is not a very good solution to
62 Mir : It's an attempt to get the management to change the course. It's not a fantastic strategy, and it certainly carries risk, but it's what they've got.
63 cosyr : I definitely think that letter was Management centric, which is logical since Crandall was never a pilot, but it did seem to focus on "trust us, we kn
64 Navion : I was sure sorry to see the APA come out with a statement flatly denying any work slowdown. Your word is all you have and when your credibility is sho
65 Post contains links ckfred : Here's an interesting read from The Street, which is the stock market website run by Jim Cramer. http://www.thestreet.com/story/11720...ndants.html?pu
66 par13del : On the other side, is management shedding any tears for the pensions and thousands of jobs being cut? Look, management and investors are doing what t
67 incitatus : "Never get in the way of a Federal Judge" was the comment from my neighbor who is an attorney with a lot of experience on airlines. This can have a v
68 flyhossd : Labor is prior to, and independent of, capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor
69 Mir : And one would hope that the AA pilots are doing that. If they are in compliance with their operating manual (i.e. only writing up things that need to
70 Post contains images EA CO AS : It's not up to the pilots to impede management if they have no confidence in them; the BOD takes that action by replacing management. Again, there's
71 MSPNWA : And that's the bottom line. The slowdown is the only arrow in the pilots' quiver. It isn't pretty, but it's all they've got to go against management'
72 par13del : Ahh no, they can always quit.
73 ORDBOSEWR : and it got rejected AGAIN!!!
74 AAexecplat : For nearly a decade they TRIED to keep the company competitive while continuing to pay employees better than the other legacies while getting less pr
75 DocLightning : No it isn't. The action will accomplish NOTHING. It will not get their contract back. It will not get them a better deal on a new contract. It will n
76 Post contains images EA CO AS : When will labor learn that the arrow is actually pointed at their heads too, not just management's? If you cost the company $100M in a labor action o
77 par13del : If you think the comment is class warfare, then fine, everyone is entitiled to their opinion. Managements responsibility is to the investors who have
78 DocLightning : And when EA CO AS and I agree on something like this, my guess is we're right.
79 Maverick623 : The other scenario is just as unpleasant (for the pilots): give in to the company's demands, and run a highly productive airline, yet still get the s
80 AAexecplat : Utter non-sense. Take a look at UA and DL pilots getting new contracts after their respective carriers have been prospering. You are just making excu
81 travelin man : Then they should quit and go to an airline that will pay them the value they think they deserve! If they are so valuable they should not have ANY iss
82 Darksnowynight : That's pretty much where we're at. I don't like how much this looks like NWA's F/A "Chaos" days, but when we have a professionally trained an educate
83 AirCalSNA : I tend to agree with your sentiment. I read the AA pilot's letter to Fox News responding to its coverage of the strike and it made me more sympatheti
84 DocLightning : "The shaft"? A pay and pension scheme that would still be considered generous to the average American citizen? Let's grow some perspective here. Once
85 StuckInCA : Yup. The problem is that groups like this will carry on about how they'd be starting at the bottom at another company. Fact is that if unions stop pu
86 flyhossd : You're right - you don't "get it." The seniority system started as a means to enhance safety. Try to find a copy of "Flying the Line" for the full st
87 StuckInCA : I'll read it, but color me skeptical. Why is the same system in place in basically every unionized sector - many of which have no real safety issues
88 Mir : The airlines would never go for it either. Whether they want to admit it publicly, the seniority system and the disincentive it gives pilots to leave
89 davs5032 : It's scary how these unions have brainwashed the masses to the point where they disregard the most basic and fundamental principles of business.... T
90 MSPNWA : That's not an arrow. That's laying down the bow. Then what else could they do to advance their position in the negotiations. They don't have many opt
91 DocLightning : This is called "splitting." This All Management Is Bad/All Employees Are Good thing. There are good employees and bad ones. There are good, altruisti
92 EA CO AS : No, it's thug mentality and really no different than running a protection racket. You're telling the company, "Do what we want and no one gets hurt."
93 JoeCanuck : Imagine the bargains other airlines will get from the thousands of people put out of work if AA folds or even if US gets to snatch them up. US won't n
94 windy95 : The employees at UA and DL are looking at this as a win-win. Thanks for filling our airplanes... And you are seeing it already. It will give a glut o
95 incitatus : You are smarter than your comment. I doubt you would go in front of a federal judge and make such a point.
96 AAexecplat : There is no disproportionate hit. Please state your sources...all the other workgroups took haircuts with their new contracts. For reference, take a
97 XFSUgimpLB41X : It's a well written letter, but more of just "feel good" and not much substance. The fact is that AMR is utilizing bankruptcy to rape their employee g
98 commavia : Well ... kind of. AA claimed - with all the work groups - that nobody would get a paycut, and everybody would get raises, but in reality some of the
99 slider : I think your response here was well stated. I'd go a step further to say that the tone of pilots (or other labor unions to varying degrees) is exactl
100 Post contains images par13del : Exception to the above is that the industry - workers/unions/management - have created a job market where the value of ones labour is constrained by
101 Darksnowynight : You mean the ones I specifically mentioned in my post? For the record, I typically don't respond to strawman posts like these, so let's actually read
102 Post contains links LAXdude1023 : For the first time I can honestly say bravo to the APA leadership: http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/APA...AA-Slowdown-Efforts-171638481.html
103 DocLightning : But this contract is abusive and horrible and disrespectful! So if the AA pilots choose to stay, then I suppose it's not as bad a starting at the bot
104 par13del : Unfortunately, the extra emotional baggage will rear its ugly head if they stay at AA, they will be disgruntled workers gritting their teeth, not a g
105 MSPNWA : Obviously the previous offer was lower than what the pilots could accept. Guess what happens next: both sides go back to negotiation. What happens in
106 CosmicCruiser : Thank You, enough said. Unless you're there; you ain't there so don't try to analyze, criticize nor theorize on how it should be.
107 thrufru : While I found Mr. Crandall's response well written and informative, I found it rather telling that he never once mentioned or addressed the issue of m
108 CosmicCruiser : well said, everyone needs to hear "the rest of the story"
109 EA CO AS : Actually, I've worked directly with negotiating teams at my airline. Sorry to burst your bubble. Regardless, it doesn't take knowledge of airline neg
110 airportugal310 : Beats me...doesn't work that way at the airline I work at, but we're not a crappy carrier either... Go figure!
111 StuckInCA : This is a public forum. I don't have to be an AA employee to state my opinion. I've been an employee of a company as it shrunk from over 13,000 emplo
112 PPVRA : If all airlines dump the seniority system, then there are no competitive pressures. Airlines will adjust to the slightly higher labor cost by parking
113 JoeCanuck : That's pretty much the definition of market rate. Oh, and ps...there is absolutely nothing special about the airline industry...nothing. People are h
114 airportugal310 : Well said. No one in this industry is as safe as the next guy. To think otherwise is only serving to fool you.
115 737tdi : Did you read the quoted article. This guy threw aircraft maintenance under the bus. Read the article. He is way off topic and way out of line. He is
116 par13del : Ahh actually they are, whether we like it or not, government rules (FAA, NTSB) and company rules do not allow a janitor, F/A, accountant, sales manag
117 sphealey : Even an introductory textbook in labor economics will refute this. Jobs which require extreme levels of specialized skill developed over time and for
118 norcal : Those senior airline captains doing things like flying international long haul can't legally work more then they already do so I really don't underst
119 2175301 : Absolutely correct. You are correct in that where specialized skills and training are required that it is often common for non-normal labor condition
120 Darksnowynight : That's actually a pretty interesting post, & I'm always happy to learn something new, so thanks for that. But... Do you see the somewhat glaring
121 Revelation : Fascinating, but how does lumping airline pilots in with doctors and nuclear power plant operators support the notion that there's nothing special ab
122 Polot : But in the end, who decides if a group is being underpaid, overpaid or being paid just right? If you have enough people willing to do the job to allo
123 MaverickM11 : Oh for chrissakes. Pilots are not doctors. Period. That is flat out offensive to doctors. If they want to be like doctors they can work hours like do
124 XFSUgimpLB41X : I'm on call for 24 hours a day as a rsv pilot. Might want to change your analogy.
125 MaverickM11 : I mean 24 hours of working, not 24 hours of maybe getting a call to work a normal duty day. Big difference.
126 SEPilot : My wife was recently very sick, and in the hospital for almost two months. I was able to sleep in the room with her, and was with her all of the time
127 Mir : If we had a work environment like doctors, maybe we could work hours like doctors. But we don't. -Mir
128 Darksnowynight : IMO, that's between the pilots & mgmt, in this case (and now a judge), hence this issue in the first place. They could, yes. But it's very unlike
129 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Not sure what that means? Arguably if you didn't have the seniority-over-all mentality you might get paid like doctors WN did not fly outside of Texa
130 Post contains images aluminumtubing : I personally make more than 2 of 3 doctors I know. Pilots don't think they are Gods. And God should be capitalized by the way. My guess, is that you
131 MaverickM11 : Only if it is the one and only. And even then I don't, but that's a personal choice and neither here nor there. No time in a simulator but loads of t
132 N766UA : I've seen this letter posted on a few other industry message boards, and 0 of the responses are favorable. The best part, though, is that nobody has o
133 par13del : True, but does the doctor have to sleep in a hotel or drive home, rack up long distance calls to speak to his family? Look the environments are diffe
134 MaverickM11 : Both have drawbacks to be sure. It's pretty easy. Psychologists, chiropractors, pilots: not doctors. I don't think I have ever said that pilots are o
135 Mir : That trying to draw a comparison between pilots and doctors and say who works harder than who is well nigh impossible due to the vast differences in
136 EA CO AS : Which validates my point that these type of work actions against an employer are no different than shakedowns by thugs. When you come to work for som
137 par13del : Technically true for all workers, if all AA pilots who disagree with the forced 1113 ruling would just up and leave, AA would be in chpt.7 in no time
138 aluminumtubing : OUCH! I am sure your Mama would be proud of your description. Certainly adds credibility to your post... Are you in second grade? You sound like a co
139 norcal : So how should airline employees falling under the RLA get raises? You can't keep them at the same wages forever, there is this little thing called in
140 EA CO AS : Hey, if the shoe fits... I guess you conveniently overlooked the rest of my post, where I pointed out that I was once a topped-out union employee and
141 aluminumtubing : I tried the shoe on. It doesn't fit. Sorry. I guess I am not Cinderella after all.
142 MaverickM11 : Let's pretend that's true, and let's also pretend that it doesn't happen, then what? Problem solved, right? AA is once again competitive thanks to ex
143 FI642 : Too bad Braniff isn't around to see this. Shades of Eastern Airlines. For those of us who remember that horrible mess, lets hope American's Pilots don
144 aluminumtubing : There we go again, it's all the pilots fault. If only things were that simple. Let's get real. You might take a gander at the AA cancellation thread.
145 Revelation : How do you know what's being offered during negotiations?
146 aluminumtubing : He doesn't have a clue. If I had the opportunity to sit down with him and explain all that was done by the APA in order to come to an agreement, he p
147 Darksnowynight : I've followed a pretty similar path myself. And I'm not seeing how that's germain to this discussion. What Pilots are paid is already complex matrix
148 norcal : So losing billions of dollars is now considered good performance and worthy of bonuses? Maybe merit for non-flight deck coworkers, but that's the opi
149 MaverickM11 : Name any constructive solution APA has ever offered, ever, to anything.
150 aluminumtubing : Have you seen the "Constructive" proposals APA offered AA in order to improve their productivity and flexibility? What about the scope improvements?
151 par13del : Merit based systems have been used by management for many years, carriers have started up and others have been thru chpt.11, I wonder why no one has
152 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Which time? Like the 50% raise they demanded? Incidentally Charlie Sheen did the same thing Birds of a feather... I'm not really talking about the co
153 aluminumtubing : Well, I have to agree that the APA has not always gone about things the right way. However, this is not a brand new management team. They have all be
154 norcal : Aviate, navigate, communicate in that order. Why should I be penalized because I don't tell passengers the instant we enter a hold what we are doing?
155 EA CO AS : No, in fact it does not mean one cannot be created. Again, the previous attempts have all been shot-down by unions that did not want pay to be merit-
156 Post contains links norcal : Incorrect http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0...can-airlines-doles-o_n_186857.html This is the only plausible circumstance where pilots might be abl
157 Post contains images EA CO AS : Those were stock based bonuses, not cash, and would not only not be worth anything for a few years, they were designed to incentivize the recipients
158 XFSUgimpLB41X : EA CO AS- You're not going anywhere. The fact is that the main population of pilots with merit used for motion is a bad and likely fatal idea for hund
159 MSPNWA : A merit-based system is ridiculous and should never happen. It creates no benefit to labor or even management for that matter. The issue? You're basi
160 XFSUgimpLB41X : I've heard of ground pounder union members getting castigated for setting the bar too high. That is 100% incorrect when it comes to pilots. Excelling
161 commavia : I have no issue with what AA's pilots make now, or made in the past. They are trained professionals with lots of responsibility, and deserve to get p
162 Post contains images Mir : It's a job. You do it to make money. Just like airlines are in business to make money, not to be safe. Bankruptcy is a cost-reduction strategy now. I
163 StuckInCA : So, you're basically saying that as long as a pilot doesn't crash he's no better than any other. There's no way to differentiate them. At all. Noted.
164 commavia : Yes. It is ridiculous - I agree. This is no different than when Continental (twice), Delta, Northwest, United and USAirways (twice) all used the same
165 Post contains images MaverickM11 : Do you have a better way of getting AMR's costs down to a competitive level? It's only been at least a decade in the making so I could see how the un
166 Mir : I do hate the game. But when I oppose AA's bankruptcy on those grounds, somehow it gets equated to opposing AA. -Mir
167 XFSUgimpLB41X : Wrong. The pilot has to pass sim rides every 6-9 months their entire career to strict standards. You play "bet your license" each time. Then there ar
168 AirframeAS : Yes I did but my quote is FACT. Look at AMFA. They suck. Look at what they did to the NWA mechanics and how UA mechanics voted AMFA off the property.
169 Post contains images EA CO AS : I've even heard it from shop stewards! Gotta love the IAM.... You make it sound as if they're mutually-exclusive, when in actuality they go hand-in-h
170 Mir : They're not mutually exclusive, but they don't go hand in hand either. Safety is a cost, and that negatively affects profit. You need to spend money
171 Darksnowynight : Setting aside for a moment that no two situtations are exactly alike... AA staff have the benefit of being able to look to the past at such things, f
172 MSPNWA : Not at all. There's "good" and "bad" pilots. I hear stories about them on a frequent basis. However, with the the nature of the job and the strict ru
173 737tdi : norcal: Right on the nose buddy. Folks don't realize the contracts of unions work both ways. Management can hammer you with them, and will. It's thie
174 EA CO AS : So tell me this; when you have a stellar employee who comes to you and complains that a lackluster employee - who, by the way, is a shop steward - ha
175 Post contains images par13del : Why do we want them to offer any solutions, I thought we agreed that workers are supposed to do their jobs and management is supposed to manage, see
176 incitatus : But you are writing this not because AA is making bad decisions. It is because the wages, benefits and work rules of pilots including you are up for
177 Post contains images MaverickM11 : and suddenly all of APA's concerns about maintenance, safety, and 'outsourcing' would cease to be aired in the press if it never happened Well, we do
178 aluminumtubing : Quoting aluminumtubing (Reply 153): The problem as most of us see it, is that we still have the same toxic culture perpetuated by the same group of pe
179 Darksnowynight : Who's creating the hostile work environment? The problem is that you don't really have a way to actually know that (because no employee in the histor
180 Post contains images EA CO AS : In this particular instance, the shop steward and two other sub-par employees the shop steward goaded into harassing the stellar employee. You're spe
181 norcal : Absolutely, what happens is we negotiate a contract and an understanding of what the language means is agreed to by both parties. Then what often hap
182 aaexecplat : Newsflash! Extra Extra! That is what like for most of us is like every day. When I go to work, not only do I have to bring all my skills and then som
183 norcal : It's not one failure and done, you can get a do over. Some people just have a bad day in the sim, that doesn't mean they are bad pilots. We get hired
184 TVNWZ : So, do you win the grievance or not? Grievances by themselves are a tool to understand and interpret the contract. Filing them and responding to them
185 aaexecplat : Thanks for your exceptionally thoughtful and detailed explanation of the process. Given your answer, I am left wondering why pilots would be terrifie
186 norcal : It depends. It's really a no lose situation for the company. If they violate the contract and lose the grievance they are told, "Don't do that again.
187 par13del : Standard practise for all of us, the above is not what is detrimental to merit based system, your response below is what the problem is, and in your
188 TexL1649 : It is nigh impossible for me, as an outsider, to sympathize with the pilots after reading a bit of the news coverage/Crandall's letter etc. The "entit
189 aaexecplat : Correct. Stuff happens. When it does, it is "put up or shut up" time...you either leave or you don't. But at no point did I stop giving 100% effort o
190 norcal : Did you even bother to hear the other side of the story? I like the idea as a concept, so long as it doesn't compromise safety, but the issue is how
191 par13del : Why disavow responsibility, they voted down a contract that they did not believe was in their best interest, management responded by going chpt.11, w
192 aaexecplat : I don't disagree with either of you. I am pro-merit systems. I am also pro-safety. And I am equally sure that if we TRIED to come up with a merit sys
193 par13del : Oh I have thought of it and other than the items that management has already removed from the pilots control, the best I can think of is cockpit / sy
194 Valorien : I am sorry if I am repeating something that has already been said. I was not going to comment on this post, but being that I see this thread every tim
195 EA CO AS : That's because you haven't addressed a single issue that would impact safety, particularly since pilots are aviation professionals, meaning there sho
196 incitatus : Like I already mentioned above if the CEO of AA was an incompentent executive handing out free money to the pilots just to buy peace, that would not
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